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  1. - Top - End - #1171
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Felixc-91 View Post
    i would like to put forward a theory i have based on the latest fight between V and Z (durring the gladiatorial match). i believe that it shows evidence that V has the improved counter spell feat. (Or that Rich wasn't paying close attention when writing those strips). Just a quick reminder; improved counter spell: When counter spelling, you may use a spell of the same school that is one or more spell levels higher than the target spell. Here V says s/he doesn't have stone to flesh prepared, however that Durkon has break enchantment preped and it will have the same effect. However, here Z casts break enchantment and V counter spells it. So either V had break enchantment ready and lied to Elan, or V has improved counter spell and just cast something of higher level from the same school. The first theory makes no sense so... What do you guys think?
    Hmm...it makes since. It also could be an oversight, but isn't this the kind of thing the geekery is for

  2. - Top - End - #1172
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Any particular reason not to assume (Greater) Dispel Magic was used? As with the discussion regarding Redcloak counterspelling Tsukiko's Shout, there is no visual indication of what specific form of counterspelling is used.

  3. - Top - End - #1173
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tulya View Post
    Any particular reason not to assume (Greater) Dispel Magic was used? As with the discussion regarding Redcloak counterspelling Tsukiko's Shout, there is no visual indication of what specific form of counterspelling is used.
    Yes, here. Greater dispell magic would have been able to free Haley. In the text it says it can undo anything remove curse can. I guess it might have been a normal (not greater) dispell magic, that would not have been able to undo flesh to stone... ok, I can't rule that out. But it would be risky; V would have to roll a 13+ to beat the spell, more like a 15+ if Z is the same level as V. plus V counters at least 2 of Z's spells. I’m going to go count spells in that fight and see if I can come up with something conclusive.
    Last edited by Felixc-91; 2012-06-18 at 11:18 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #1174
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    ... ok, either i am reading these manuals wrong, or V is more powerful than we thought. i have been looking through the battle with Z comics again and it seems that V cast 4 7th level spells in that fight. that would make V level 16+ with an int score of 24+ prismatic spray and force cage, quickened hold person, and quickened hast. all 7th level spells. (quicken)
    Impossible is a biased statement.
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    link to the thread translating Haley's babel speech
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  5. - Top - End - #1175
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    As a specialist in Evocation, V can prepare an extra spell per spell level in that school. That means either Forcecage or Prismatic Spray was a specialty spell. Still, it's good evidence that she's level 16 (I believe her Int has been fairly well determined from the illithid incident onward). Nice catch!

    Quote Originally Posted by Felixc-91 View Post
    Yes, here. Greater dispell magic would have been able to free Haley. In the text it says it can undo anything remove curse can. I guess it might have been a normal (not greater) dispell magic, that would not have been able to undo flesh to stone... ok, I can't rule that out. But it would be risky; V would have to roll a 13+ to beat the spell, more like a 15+ if Z is the same level as V. plus V counters at least 2 of Z's spells. I’m going to go count spells in that fight and see if I can come up with something conclusive.
    I, uh, don't think Remove Curse can deal with Flesh to Stone. V prepares GDM practically as a matter of course, IIRC.
    Last edited by Math_Mage; 2012-06-19 at 12:23 AM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    I, uh, don't think Remove Curse can deal with Flesh to Stone. V prepares GDM practically as a matter of course, IIRC.
    *head desk* yep, I wasn't paying enough attention... but I have way too much time on my hands, so I looked up break enchantment and now I noticed something interesting, if petrification can't be reversed by dispel magic, then break enchantment would not be able to undo flesh to stone. this is because flesh to stone is a 6th level spell and break enchantment can't reverse the effects of a spell level 6+ if the spell can't be undone by dispel magic... so we can conclude that flesh to stone can be countered by dispel magic and that V didn’t prepare it that day. We can also conclude that V has improved counter spell.
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    this is a must read for all: Common misconceptions (i am in no way joking, please read it)

  7. - Top - End - #1177
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Flesh to Stone is an instantaneous effect, and can't be undone by Dispelling. Break Enchantment, as described in the mechanical text, should not be able to remove petrification caused by Flesh to Stone due to its spell level. However, the text of the Player's Handbook includes a line omitted from the SRD which explicitly mentions Flesh to Stone. Whether the language is citing it solely as an example of an instantaneous effect, or as an effect that can be broken with Break Enchantment, is contested.

    Edit: Ah, this discussion has been had before -
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222800
    Last edited by Tulya; 2012-06-19 at 12:37 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #1178
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    smile Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tulya View Post
    Flesh to Stone is an instantaneous effect, and can't be undone by Dispelling. Break Enchantment, as described in the mechanical text, should not be able to remove petrification caused by Flesh to Stone due to its spell level. However, the text of the Player's Handbook includes a line omitted from the SRD which explicitly mentions Flesh to Stone. Whether the language is citing it solely as an example of an instantaneous effect, or as an effect that can be broken with Break Enchantment, is contested.

    Edit: Ah, this discussion has been had before -
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222800
    thank you for showing that to me, ends this argumetn/discussion and informs me that SRD is not always the same as my player's hand book.
    Impossible is a biased statement.
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    link to the thread translating Haley's babel speech
    this is a must read for all: Common misconceptions (i am in no way joking, please read it)

  9. - Top - End - #1179
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Felixc-91 View Post
    *head desk* yep, I wasn't paying enough attention... but I have way too much time on my hands, so I looked up break enchantment and now I noticed something interesting, if petrification can't be reversed by dispel magic, then break enchantment would not be able to undo flesh to stone. this is because flesh to stone is a 6th level spell and break enchantment can't reverse the effects of a spell level 6+ if the spell can't be undone by dispel magic... so we can conclude that flesh to stone can be countered by dispel magic and that V didn’t prepare it that day. We can also conclude that V has improved counter spell.
    Well, there are multiple interpretations of that.

    By RAW, FtS can't be removed by Break Enchantment. This is unambiguous--Dispel Magic can't remove spells with instantaneous durations, and FtS has instantaneous duration and is 6th level.

    Therefore, we have a choice between Rich "forgetting" that Break Enchantment has that 5th-level cap on spells that can't be removed by Dispel Magic...or Rich "forgetting" that Dispel Magic can't dispel FtS. (Greater Dispel Magic is irrelevant in this choice.)

    But in the latter case, V could have simply cast a Dispel Magic, which we know she routinely prepares (cf. various uses of counterspelling throughout the comic, such as here and here). Not only would it be strange for V to not have Dispel or Greater Dispel prepared, but it would be even stranger for her to think Stone to Flesh a relevant spell choice if Dispels could do the same job.

    EDIT: Majorly ninja'd. But the point about V probably being Level 16 still stands.
    Last edited by Math_Mage; 2012-06-19 at 12:51 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #1180
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    I would say that RAW is moot in the case of Flesh to Stone, since Rich previously established that in Stickworld Break Enchantment is enough to beat it. I'd peg it as the same type of Rule 0 that lets Tsukiko specialise in Necromancy while only barring a single school.
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  11. - Top - End - #1181
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    As Tulya said, this has been discussed before, and Rich's answer was both that the description of Break Enchantment specifically says that it cures Flesh to Stone and specific trumps general, and that he doesn't really care about any ambiguity here.

    There is presently no indication that Dispel Magic would cure Flesh to Stone; the Order used Break Enchantment for it both times.

  12. - Top - End - #1182
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    As a specialist in Evocation, V can prepare an extra spell per spell level in that school. That means either Forcecage or Prismatic Spray was a specialty spell. Still, it's good evidence that she's level 16 (I believe her Int has been fairly well determined from the illithid incident onward). Nice catch!
    The extra seventh-level spell is explained just as well by V having upgraded her Headband of Intellect from +4 to +6 at some point offscreen. V's natural INT was 18 at the time of strip 32. According to the FAQ and my analysis on page 854, she was level 9 at the time. Her natural INT at level 15 would be 19, and a +4 Headband would increase that to 23. She would have the following spells, including both bonus spells for high INT and specialist slots:
    0: 4
    1: 7
    2: 7
    3: 6
    4: 6
    5: 6
    6: 5
    7: 3
    8: 2

    If we assume V raised her level to 16 and did not get a new Headband, we run into the problem that she would have increased her INT anyway, by leveling to 16 specifically. A level 16 V with 24 INT would have the following spells:
    0: 4
    1: 7
    2: 7
    3: 7
    4: 6
    5: 6
    6: 6
    7: 5
    8: 3

    Meanwhile a level 15 V with 25 INT would have the following spells:
    0: 4
    1: 7
    2: 7
    3: 7
    4: 6
    5: 6
    6: 5
    7: 4
    8: 2

    Giving V a better headband only increases her third and seventh-level spells, and only by one each, to produce exactly the result observed. Increasing her level and natural INT gives her a lot of spells we haven't seen, particularly - and this is important - more eighth-level spell slots.

    EDIT: speaking of the table, it really should be changed to reflect the Order's starting the comic at level 8 rather than level 10, per the FAQ. As such, it is reproduced in the spoiler, without the less-than-well-supported speculation about when characters would level together, for convenience.
    Spoiler
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    {table]Level||||||
    9|12|12|12|12|12|12
    10|124|125|124|124|124|124
    11|251|???|201|???|???|186
    12|???, 665|249|???|???|477|???
    13|485, -|???|556|393|511|397
    14|-|???|-|647|???|627
    15|-|???|-|-|615|716
    16|-|748|-|-|-|-[/table]
    Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2012-06-19 at 09:40 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #1183
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Did V cast any 8th level spells that day? Can't it also be explained by him/her preparing a 7th in his/her 8th level spell slot?
    THE SCRYING EYE AT THE END OF STRIP #698 WAS ZZ'DTRI'S (SOURCE)

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    Did V cast any 8th level spells that day? Can't it also be explained by him/her preparing a 7th in his/her 8th level spell slot?
    It could at that. So that's three explanations collected for this phenomenon, each with no more support than the last.

  15. - Top - End - #1185
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    If Malack is capable of creating mummies, that must mean his minimum caster level is 15. A new basement level, then? Since he can control six of them, that means he must have a minimum caster level of 12, but that doesn't tell us anything we don't already know.

    ...

    *obvious statement is obvious*
    Last edited by rgrekejin; 2012-06-20 at 10:26 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #1186
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    We can also link to this as proof that he is of a nongood alignment ([Evil] spell).
    THE SCRYING EYE AT THE END OF STRIP #698 WAS ZZ'DTRI'S (SOURCE)

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Actually, now that I think about it, we never actually saw Malack cast the spell. It is possible that he cast it from a scroll, in which case we can't say much of anything new about his overall level. This seems unlikely to me, but it is possible.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by rgrekejin View Post
    Actually, now that I think about it, we never actually saw Malack cast the spell. It is possible that he cast it from a scroll, in which case we can't say much of anything new about his overall level. This seems unlikely to me, but it is possible.
    I think this is sufficiently implausible that we should dismiss it. Malack is extremely unlikely to not only carry the scroll of a spell that he finds morally repugnant, but to take the time and effort to procure such an item, one that could only be created by a cleric more powerful than himself. How many clerics in the OOTSverse do you think are both capable of producing such an item and willing to sell it on the open market? Two?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
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    Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    I think this is sufficiently implausible that we should dismiss it. Malack is extremely unlikely to not only carry the scroll of a spell that he finds morally repugnant, but to take the time and effort to procure such an item, one that could only be created by a cleric more powerful than himself. How many clerics in the OOTSverse do you think are both capable of producing such an item and willing to sell it on the open market? Two?
    He won't carry the scroll because it's morally repugnant, but he will prepare the spell? That doesn't seem much more plausible.

  20. - Top - End - #1190
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Wouldn't he need 6 scrolls? That seems more likely than him having prepared the spell 6 times (target is "one corpse"). http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createUndead.htm

    Also he's very likely to have Death Domain, which means this spell is a domain spell for him, which means there's no reason he can't have scrolls of it. I think he's LN so he doesn't like to cast evil spells, but there's no reason why he can't.

    As for where he'd get 6 15th+ level scrolls, odds are he makes them himself.
    Last edited by Dark Matter; 2012-06-21 at 07:45 AM.

  21. - Top - End - #1191
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Thinking about it, it looks likely Rich is house-ruling that it's somehow easier to create mummies from dried-out corpses ("a relatively rare resource") than from fresh ones.

    Edit: that's what I get for posting C&LG before reading the main thread. Per the Giant:
    They are mummies like the monster.

    Dead bodies are not an uncommon resource; mummified dead bodies are.
    Last edited by Fitzclowningham; 2012-06-21 at 08:37 AM.

  22. - Top - End - #1192
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    I think this is sufficiently implausible that we should dismiss it. Malack is extremely unlikely to not only carry the scroll of a spell that he finds morally repugnant, but to take the time and effort to procure such an item, one that could only be created by a cleric more powerful than himself. How many clerics in the OOTSverse do you think are both capable of producing such an item and willing to sell it on the open market? Two?
    It's "only" a sixth-level spell and it's also available to wizards and sorcerers. It's not hard to imagine that after 35 years of adventuring+conquering lands he got his hands on a few scrolls of Create Undead. And since he's not totally against the idea, he saved them just in case.

    There could also be an 11th-level cleric in Malack's church who has no problem creating undead, but I feel that's less plausible.
    THE SCRYING EYE AT THE END OF STRIP #698 WAS ZZ'DTRI'S (SOURCE)

  23. - Top - End - #1193
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    It's "only" a sixth-level spell and it's also available to wizards and sorcerers. It's not hard to imagine that after 35 years of adventuring+conquering lands he got his hands on a few scrolls of Create Undead. And since he's not totally against the idea, he saved them just in case.

    There could also be an 11th-level cleric in Malack's church who has no problem creating undead, but I feel that's less plausible.
    The scroll would have to be caster level 15 in order to create mummies.

    I'm not assuming that Malack didn't just make his own scrolls. However, since he would have to be level 15 in order to create the scrolls anyway, it doesn't matter whether he used scrolls he crafted or cast the spell directly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Player: Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it.
    DM: Why would you think that?
    Player: Well, Bob thinks it. And since Bob has high Int and Wis, and a lot of points in Dungeoneering, he would probably know a thing or two about how to open vault doors.
    Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Malak's profile needs to be updated. we know for certain that he has been adventuring for at least 35 years, if we combine that with the minimum age for becoming a cleric we should be able to determin his min age. also, i don't think we can use the fact that M finds creating undead distastful to say that he is unlikely to prepare the spell. after all Durkon thinks Speak with Dead is rude, but he still prepared it just in case. and it makes sense that non-spontanius spell casters in general (at least ones that survived 35 years in dungeons) would be used to preparing any spell they had if they thought it might be needed.
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    this is a must read for all: Common misconceptions (i am in no way joking, please read it)

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    If Malack carries with him six at least lv.15 scrolls of a spell he actually doesn't like to use and couldn't have forseen Nergal's "gift", well ... talk about being prepared. I wonder what else he keeps in his inventory.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Based on the Giant's comment quoted by Fitzclowningham, I suspect this is either a house ruled result of using mere Animate Dead on specifically mummified corpses or a custom spell. Either way, it doesn't really say anything about Malack's level or resources.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitzclowningham View Post
    Thinking about it, it looks likely Rich is house-ruling that it's somehow easier to create mummies from dried-out corpses ("a relatively rare resource") than from fresh ones.

    Edit: that's what I get for posting C&LG before reading the main thread. Per the Giant:
    Actually, I think he could still be using existing mummified well-preserved bodies as a modification to the regular spell. Unlike animate dead, which has been used quite often, create undead's spell description states it has a one hour casting time and can only be cast at night. Six mummies would require six hours, usually. It was day before they entered the pyramid and we can clearly see light outside the window in panel four. As far as I know, a scroll uses the original casting time if it is longer than a standard action.

    Malack could conceivably have a magic item which casts the spell and allows for a shorter casting time. It wouldn't be his staff, though, as that kind of magic item also requires the spell's casting time if longer than a standard action.

    Then again, when Tsukiko made a ghoul, it was (probably) a standard action.
    Last edited by KillingAScarab; 2012-06-21 at 01:46 PM.
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    ...
    As an author, stooping to provide an explanation for any of those things in the story is to tacitly acknowledge the belief that they are Other that have no business being in the story without a good reason. And **** that.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    I tend to agree with douglas. If Malack can just create mummies whenever he pleases, then there's no reason to consider the presence of mummified bodies any sort of sign and so his stated motivation for going against his usual distaste makes no sense.

    "Malack randomly prepares Animate Dead" is also significantly less plausibility-stretching than either, "Malack randomly prepares six copies of a level 6 spell which he does not expect to use" or, "Malack used Miracle."
    Last edited by Kish; 2012-06-21 at 01:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by 2323mike View Post
    If Malack carries with him six at least lv.15 scrolls of a spell he actually doesn't like to use and couldn't have forseen Nergal's "gift", well ... talk about being prepared. I wonder what else he keeps in his inventory.
    I wonder whether or not Create Undead has been has been houseruled to work like an enhanced Animate Dead, in the sense that you can animate a number of undead whose total hit dice are up to twice your caster level with a single spell. Malack having six of the same spell in any combination of scrolls or prepared spells seems excessive.
    Last edited by rgrekejin; 2012-06-21 at 01:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by KillingAScarab View Post
    Then again, when Tsukiko made a ghoul, it was (probably) a standard action.
    That. Further, when she made a ghoul she made "one", even with a dozen bodies around. Create Undead doesn't take an hour in OOTS.

    Quote Originally Posted by rgrekejin View Post
    Malack having six of the same spell in any combination of scrolls or prepared spells seems excessive.
    It's up there with having two rings of regeneration while also having multiples other magic items. If Elan's dad does that sort of thing then we shouldn't be shocked Malack does too.
    Last edited by Dark Matter; 2012-06-21 at 02:22 PM.

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