Results 1,171 to 1,200 of 1474
-
2012-06-18, 06:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
-
2012-06-18, 07:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2011
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Any particular reason not to assume (Greater) Dispel Magic was used? As with the discussion regarding Redcloak counterspelling Tsukiko's Shout, there is no visual indication of what specific form of counterspelling is used.
-
2012-06-18, 11:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
- Location
- Washington, USA
- Gender
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Yes, here. Greater dispell magic would have been able to free Haley. In the text it says it can undo anything remove curse can. I guess it might have been a normal (not greater) dispell magic, that would not have been able to undo flesh to stone... ok, I can't rule that out. But it would be risky; V would have to roll a 13+ to beat the spell, more like a 15+ if Z is the same level as V. plus V counters at least 2 of Z's spells. I’m going to go count spells in that fight and see if I can come up with something conclusive.
Last edited by Felixc-91; 2012-06-18 at 11:18 PM.
Impossible is a biased statement.
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan
link to the thread translating Haley's babel speech
this is a must read for all: Common misconceptions (i am in no way joking, please read it)
-
2012-06-18, 11:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
- Location
- Washington, USA
- Gender
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
... ok, either i am reading these manuals wrong, or V is more powerful than we thought. i have been looking through the battle with Z comics again and it seems that V cast 4 7th level spells in that fight. that would make V level 16+ with an int score of 24+ prismatic spray and force cage, quickened hold person, and quickened hast. all 7th level spells. (quicken)
Impossible is a biased statement.
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan
link to the thread translating Haley's babel speech
this is a must read for all: Common misconceptions (i am in no way joking, please read it)
-
2012-06-18, 11:47 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2010
- Gender
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
As a specialist in Evocation, V can prepare an extra spell per spell level in that school. That means either Forcecage or Prismatic Spray was a specialty spell. Still, it's good evidence that she's level 16 (I believe her Int has been fairly well determined from the illithid incident onward). Nice catch!
I, uh, don't think Remove Curse can deal with Flesh to Stone. V prepares GDM practically as a matter of course, IIRC.Last edited by Math_Mage; 2012-06-19 at 12:23 AM.
-
2012-06-19, 12:23 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
- Location
- Washington, USA
- Gender
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
*head desk* yep, I wasn't paying enough attention... but I have way too much time on my hands, so I looked up break enchantment and now I noticed something interesting, if petrification can't be reversed by dispel magic, then break enchantment would not be able to undo flesh to stone. this is because flesh to stone is a 6th level spell and break enchantment can't reverse the effects of a spell level 6+ if the spell can't be undone by dispel magic... so we can conclude that flesh to stone can be countered by dispel magic and that V didn’t prepare it that day. We can also conclude that V has improved counter spell.
Impossible is a biased statement.
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan
link to the thread translating Haley's babel speech
this is a must read for all: Common misconceptions (i am in no way joking, please read it)
-
2012-06-19, 12:31 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2011
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Flesh to Stone is an instantaneous effect, and can't be undone by Dispelling. Break Enchantment, as described in the mechanical text, should not be able to remove petrification caused by Flesh to Stone due to its spell level. However, the text of the Player's Handbook includes a line omitted from the SRD which explicitly mentions Flesh to Stone. Whether the language is citing it solely as an example of an instantaneous effect, or as an effect that can be broken with Break Enchantment, is contested.
Edit: Ah, this discussion has been had before -
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222800Last edited by Tulya; 2012-06-19 at 12:37 AM.
-
2012-06-19, 12:48 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
- Location
- Washington, USA
- Gender
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Impossible is a biased statement.
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan
link to the thread translating Haley's babel speech
this is a must read for all: Common misconceptions (i am in no way joking, please read it)
-
2012-06-19, 12:49 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2010
- Gender
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Well, there are multiple interpretations of that.
By RAW, FtS can't be removed by Break Enchantment. This is unambiguous--Dispel Magic can't remove spells with instantaneous durations, and FtS has instantaneous duration and is 6th level.
Therefore, we have a choice between Rich "forgetting" that Break Enchantment has that 5th-level cap on spells that can't be removed by Dispel Magic...or Rich "forgetting" that Dispel Magic can't dispel FtS. (Greater Dispel Magic is irrelevant in this choice.)
But in the latter case, V could have simply cast a Dispel Magic, which we know she routinely prepares (cf. various uses of counterspelling throughout the comic, such as here and here). Not only would it be strange for V to not have Dispel or Greater Dispel prepared, but it would be even stranger for her to think Stone to Flesh a relevant spell choice if Dispels could do the same job.
EDIT: Majorly ninja'd. But the point about V probably being Level 16 still stands.Last edited by Math_Mage; 2012-06-19 at 12:51 AM.
-
2012-06-19, 12:57 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Location
- Northern Ireland
- Gender
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
I would say that RAW is moot in the case of Flesh to Stone, since Rich previously established that in Stickworld Break Enchantment is enough to beat it. I'd peg it as the same type of Rule 0 that lets Tsukiko specialise in Necromancy while only barring a single school.
"They couldn't know that the points from the mainline to the siding were frozen, and the signal should have been set at 'DANGER', but snow had forced it down."
- The Flying Kipper
-
2012-06-19, 07:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
As Tulya said, this has been discussed before, and Rich's answer was both that the description of Break Enchantment specifically says that it cures Flesh to Stone and specific trumps general, and that he doesn't really care about any ambiguity here.
There is presently no indication that Dispel Magic would cure Flesh to Stone; the Order used Break Enchantment for it both times.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
-
2012-06-19, 08:21 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
- Location
- Lake Wobegon
- Gender
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
The extra seventh-level spell is explained just as well by V having upgraded her Headband of Intellect from +4 to +6 at some point offscreen. V's natural INT was 18 at the time of strip 32. According to the FAQ and my analysis on page 854, she was level 9 at the time. Her natural INT at level 15 would be 19, and a +4 Headband would increase that to 23. She would have the following spells, including both bonus spells for high INT and specialist slots:
0: 4
1: 7
2: 7
3: 6
4: 6
5: 6
6: 5
7: 3
8: 2
If we assume V raised her level to 16 and did not get a new Headband, we run into the problem that she would have increased her INT anyway, by leveling to 16 specifically. A level 16 V with 24 INT would have the following spells:
0: 4
1: 7
2: 7
3: 7
4: 6
5: 6
6: 6
7: 5
8: 3
Meanwhile a level 15 V with 25 INT would have the following spells:
0: 4
1: 7
2: 7
3: 7
4: 6
5: 6
6: 5
7: 4
8: 2
Giving V a better headband only increases her third and seventh-level spells, and only by one each, to produce exactly the result observed. Increasing her level and natural INT gives her a lot of spells we haven't seen, particularly - and this is important - more eighth-level spell slots.
EDIT: speaking of the table, it really should be changed to reflect the Order's starting the comic at level 8 rather than level 10, per the FAQ. As such, it is reproduced in the spoiler, without the less-than-well-supported speculation about when characters would level together, for convenience.
Spoiler{table]Level||||||
9|12|12|12|12|12|12
10|124|125|124|124|124|124
11|251|???|201|???|???|186
12|???, 665|249|???|???|477|???
13|485, -|???|556|393|511|397
14|-|???|-|647|???|627
15|-|???|-|-|615|716
16|-|748|-|-|-|-[/table]Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2012-06-19 at 09:40 AM.
-
2012-06-19, 09:04 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2009
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Did V cast any 8th level spells that day? Can't it also be explained by him/her preparing a 7th in his/her 8th level spell slot?
-
2012-06-19, 09:41 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
- Location
- Lake Wobegon
- Gender
-
2012-06-20, 10:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
If Malack is capable of creating mummies, that must mean his minimum caster level is 15. A new basement level, then? Since he can control six of them, that means he must have a minimum caster level of 12, but that doesn't tell us anything we don't already know.
...
*obvious statement is obvious*Last edited by rgrekejin; 2012-06-20 at 10:26 PM.
-
2012-06-20, 10:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2009
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
We can also link to this as proof that he is of a nongood alignment ([Evil] spell).
-
2012-06-20, 10:55 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Actually, now that I think about it, we never actually saw Malack cast the spell. It is possible that he cast it from a scroll, in which case we can't say much of anything new about his overall level. This seems unlikely to me, but it is possible.
-
2012-06-21, 12:55 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Location
- Beverly, MA, USA
- Gender
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
I think this is sufficiently implausible that we should dismiss it. Malack is extremely unlikely to not only carry the scroll of a spell that he finds morally repugnant, but to take the time and effort to procure such an item, one that could only be created by a cleric more powerful than himself. How many clerics in the OOTSverse do you think are both capable of producing such an item and willing to sell it on the open market? Two?
Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends
Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.
-
2012-06-21, 06:57 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
- Location
- LIC, NY
- Gender
-
2012-06-21, 07:43 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Wouldn't he need 6 scrolls? That seems more likely than him having prepared the spell 6 times (target is "one corpse"). http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createUndead.htm
Also he's very likely to have Death Domain, which means this spell is a domain spell for him, which means there's no reason he can't have scrolls of it. I think he's LN so he doesn't like to cast evil spells, but there's no reason why he can't.
As for where he'd get 6 15th+ level scrolls, odds are he makes them himself.Last edited by Dark Matter; 2012-06-21 at 07:45 AM.
-
2012-06-21, 08:30 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
- Location
- LIC, NY
- Gender
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Thinking about it, it looks likely Rich is house-ruling that it's somehow easier to create mummies from dried-out corpses ("a relatively rare resource") than from fresh ones.
Edit: that's what I get for posting C&LG before reading the main thread. Per the Giant:
They are mummies like the monster.
Dead bodies are not an uncommon resource; mummified dead bodies are.Last edited by Fitzclowningham; 2012-06-21 at 08:37 AM.
-
2012-06-21, 08:42 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2009
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
It's "only" a sixth-level spell and it's also available to wizards and sorcerers. It's not hard to imagine that after 35 years of adventuring+conquering lands he got his hands on a few scrolls of Create Undead. And since he's not totally against the idea, he saved them just in case.
There could also be an 11th-level cleric in Malack's church who has no problem creating undead, but I feel that's less plausible.
-
2012-06-21, 12:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Location
- Beverly, MA, USA
- Gender
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
The scroll would have to be caster level 15 in order to create mummies.
I'm not assuming that Malack didn't just make his own scrolls. However, since he would have to be level 15 in order to create the scrolls anyway, it doesn't matter whether he used scrolls he crafted or cast the spell directly.Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends
Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.
-
2012-06-21, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
- Location
- Washington, USA
- Gender
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Malak's profile needs to be updated. we know for certain that he has been adventuring for at least 35 years, if we combine that with the minimum age for becoming a cleric we should be able to determin his min age. also, i don't think we can use the fact that M finds creating undead distastful to say that he is unlikely to prepare the spell. after all Durkon thinks Speak with Dead is rude, but he still prepared it just in case. and it makes sense that non-spontanius spell casters in general (at least ones that survived 35 years in dungeons) would be used to preparing any spell they had if they thought it might be needed.
Impossible is a biased statement.
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan
link to the thread translating Haley's babel speech
this is a must read for all: Common misconceptions (i am in no way joking, please read it)
-
2012-06-21, 12:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2012
- Location
- Czech Republic
- Gender
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
If Malack carries with him six at least lv.15 scrolls of a spell he actually doesn't like to use and couldn't have forseen Nergal's "gift", well ... talk about being prepared. I wonder what else he keeps in his inventory.
-
2012-06-21, 01:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2005
- Location
- Mountain View, CA
- Gender
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Based on the Giant's comment quoted by Fitzclowningham, I suspect this is either a house ruled result of using mere Animate Dead on specifically mummified corpses or a custom spell. Either way, it doesn't really say anything about Malack's level or resources.
Like 4X (aka Civilization-like) gaming? Know programming? Interested in game development? Take a look.
Avatar by Ceika.
Archives:
SpoilerSaberhagen's Twelve Swords, some homebrew artifacts for 3.5 (please comment)
Isstinen Tonche for ECL 74 playtesting.
Team Solars: Powergaming beyond your wildest imagining, without infinite loops or epic. Yes, the DM asked for it.
Arcane Swordsage: Making it actually work (homebrew)
-
2012-06-21, 01:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2011
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Actually, I think he could still be using existing
mummifiedwell-preserved bodies as a modification to the regular spell. Unlike animate dead, which has been used quite often, create undead's spell description states it has a one hour casting time and can only be cast at night. Six mummies would require six hours, usually. It was day before they entered the pyramid and we can clearly see light outside the window in panel four. As far as I know, a scroll uses the original casting time if it is longer than a standard action.
Malack could conceivably have a magic item which casts the spell and allows for a shorter casting time. It wouldn't be his staff, though, as that kind of magic item also requires the spell's casting time if longer than a standard action.
Then again, when Tsukiko made a ghoul, it was (probably) a standard action.
-
2012-06-21, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
I tend to agree with douglas. If Malack can just create mummies whenever he pleases, then there's no reason to consider the presence of mummified bodies any sort of sign and so his stated motivation for going against his usual distaste makes no sense.
"Malack randomly prepares Animate Dead" is also significantly less plausibility-stretching than either, "Malack randomly prepares six copies of a level 6 spell which he does not expect to use" or, "Malack used Miracle."Last edited by Kish; 2012-06-21 at 01:45 PM.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
-
2012-06-21, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
I wonder whether or not Create Undead has been has been houseruled to work like an enhanced Animate Dead, in the sense that you can animate a number of undead whose total hit dice are up to twice your caster level with a single spell. Malack having six of the same spell in any combination of scrolls or prepared spells seems excessive.
Last edited by rgrekejin; 2012-06-21 at 01:46 PM.
-
2012-06-21, 02:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
That. Further, when she made a ghoul she made "one", even with a dozen bodies around. Create Undead doesn't take an hour in OOTS.
It's up there with having two rings of regeneration while also having multiples other magic items. If Elan's dad does that sort of thing then we shouldn't be shocked Malack does too.Last edited by Dark Matter; 2012-06-21 at 02:22 PM.