Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

[Ghosty]

Could he have stacked Desecrate with 3 castings of Create Undead to get 6 mummies? (Not my idea; got it from someone else either in this thread or the #856 thread.) I know it says Animate Undead for the double HD created, not Create Undead, but the underlying thought's the same, right?

If Girard does manage to come back though---hey, Soon did it! And he wasn't even part-Draconic.---I doubt he'll be thrilled at either his descendants being turned into mummies, or his cafeteria Desecrated.

Question for the DM's out there: if you Create undead from dead that had class levels in life, do the undead keep those class levels/abilities? Part of them? None at all? Otherwise, how are monsters such as Mummy Lords created?

[137beth]

My opinion is that since we know that house rules are in play, we are unlikely to actually be able to deduce information about Malack's level, even if we can agree on what is "most likely" for him to prepare. I suggest his level floor be left as-is.

[Emperordaniel]

I was just reading through Team Evil's stats, and I noticed this minor error; it states in Xykon's list of spells that he has an "unidentified spell that enables travel to the Astral Plane", when we actually know what spell it is (and Redcloak is the one who's casting it); it's Gate, as can be seen by him casting it on the second page, third panel here.

[Gift Jeraff]

I was just reading through Team Evil's stats, and I noticed this minor error; it states in Xykon's list of spells that he has an "unidentified spell that enables travel to the Astral Plane", when we actually know what spell it is (and Redcloak is the one who's casting it); it's Gate, as can be seen by him casting it on the second page, third panel here.

Xykon went there without Redcloak's help at first, so he must know Plane Shift/Gate or have had a scroll to get there and back.

Speaking of which, that and Nale's invisibility spell seem to set a precedence that off-panel spells aren't assumed to be cast from a scroll. EDIT: Since Xykon can't have Plane Shift or Gate, and had Redcloak transport them to the Astral Plane, perhaps it should be assumed he got there via scroll?

Also, that strip seems to suggest Redcloak has Teleport or something, since he's readying a spell and saying "to the Windy Canyon." Since we know he has other nonstandard spells (cast on the phylactery), would it be reasonable to assume he researched Teleport or a similar spell? Or am I missing something?

[RMS Oceanic]

Xykon went there without Redcloak's help at first, so he must know Plane Shift/Gate or have had a scroll to get there and back.

Speaking of which, that and Nale's invisibility spell seem to set a precedence that off-panel spells aren't assumed to be cast from a scroll. EDIT: Since Xykon can't have Plane Shift or Gate, and had Redcloak transport them to the Astral Plane, perhaps it should be assumed he got there via scroll?

Also, that strip seems to suggest Redcloak has Teleport or something, since he's readying a spell and saying "to the Windy Canyon." Since we know he has other nonstandard spells (cast on the phylactery), would it be reasonable to assume he researched Teleport or a similar spell? Or am I missing something?

Gate, unlike Planar Shift, allows for accurate travel. If they're going straight from the Astral Plane to Girard's Gate, then Gate would be the spell used.

[Dark Matter]

My opinion is that since we know that house rules are in play, we are unlikely to actually be able to deduce information about Malack's level...

The House Rules in question don't appear to change the level needed.

(From T) We know Create Undead can be cast as an action, but she couldn't create mummies. After that, Malack may or may not have the spell prepared just because it's a domain spell.

Or in other words, either he cast the spell or he has six scrolls lying around... but I don't see why it's simpler to assume he has a 15th level Cleric around somewhere making him scrolls as opposed to having him make them himself.

What we shouldn't assume because of house rules is that he has "Craft Scroll".

[137beth]

The House Rules in question don't appear to change the level needed.

Yes it does, it may mean that he would only need to cast animate dead once or twice, which means he does not need six uses

[Dark Matter]

Yes it does, it may mean that he would only need to cast animate dead once or twice, which means he does not need six uses

If he cast it once, then he needs to be level 15+ to create Mummies.
If he cast it 6 times, then he needs to be level 15+ to create Mummies.
If he cast it from a scroll 6 times, then whoever created the scroll needs to be level 15+.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createUndead.htm

Given that all roads lead to him either being a level 15+ Cleric or having one work for him, I don't see why we shouldn't peg his level at 15+. It's not perfect evidence but it's strong, and if we get evidence that he's not this high a level we can change it.

Edit: Or did Rich say something about this whole situation which I missed?

[Kish]

Just that the presence of mummified bodies did...Something.

137ben is theorizing that it permitted Malack, as a house rule, to create mummies rather than zombies with the much-weaker Animate Dead spell rather than using Create Undead, which wouldn't strictly require Malack to be higher level than 5th (!), or 12th if these are standard 8-hit-dice mummies and the "can control 4 hit dice of undead per caster level" rule is in effect. If mummies are what Malack gets whenever he casts Create Undead on any corpse, there's no reason for him to talk about not wasting a scarce resource.

[Dark Matter]

Just that the presence of mummified bodies did...Something.

137ben is theorizing that it permitted Malack, as a house rule, to create mummies rather than zombies with the much-weaker Animate Dead spell rather than using Create Undead...

Oh. Thank you, I needed to hear that spelled out.

...there's nothing in there I can disagree with, I withdrawal my argument. We're deep into "it's not clear what happened".

If mummies are what Malack gets whenever he casts Create Undead on any corpse, there's no reason for him to talk about not wasting a scarce resource.

Edit: It doesn't clear up anything, but even if he can pull it off normally with a corpse and a 6th level spell, it's still a "scarce resource" if he can do 6 for one with a 3rd level spell (and the house rule might require him to be 15th level, and yeah, I know, we've zero proof for that).

[Sr.medusa]

The only houserulling I see is that Create Undead ony can be spelled by night, but I assume that Malack use scrolls, I hardly doubt he prepares 6 Create Undead in the moring by divine inspirat... wait, maybe he prepare it.

[Fitzclowningham]

The only houserulling I see is that Create Undead ony can be spelled by night, but I assume that Malack use scrolls, I hardly doubt he prepares 6 Create Undead in the moring by divine inspirat... wait, maybe he prepare it.

The "rare resource" of the dessicated corpses facilitated the creation of the mummies. Malack said it would be rude not to make use of it. He basically said that the presence of all the dessicated corpses was such a gimme that his own distaste/disgust for the undead was meaningless compared to the inexpensive power he would get having the mummies fight for him. He thought it would be an affront to his god if he didn't use the opportunity. Can't we call that an explicit houserule?

[zimmerwald1915]

The "rare resource" of the dessicated corpses facilitated the creation of the mummies. Malack said it would be rude not to make use of it. He basically said that the presence of all the dessicated corpses was such a gimme that his own distaste/disgust for the undead was meaningless compared to the inexpensive power he would get having the mummies fight for him. He thought it would be an affront to his god if he didn't use the opportunity. Can't we call that an explicit houserule?

What houserule? Information about Nergal's attitude towards the undead - which is still limited and sketchy - comes under the heading setting lore, not any kind of rule.

[Fitzclowningham]

What houserule? Information about Nergal's attitude towards the undead - which is still limited and sketchy - comes under the heading setting lore, not any kind of rule.

As many have said in this thread, it would be impossible for Malack to create 6 mummies during the day, and arguably in under an hour. All I was trying to say was that Rich, by having Malack make such a big deal about the dessicated corpses, was telling us in a rather direct fashion that he was houseruling ez-bake mummies from Girard's family. This after he went out of his way to highlight the difference between desert wind-dried corpses and the more usual kind.

[Kurald Galain]

(From T) We know Create Undead can be cast as an action, but she couldn't create mummies. After that, Malack may or may not have the spell prepared just because it's a domain spell.

Maybe he has Malack's Amazing Mummy-Making Spell?

[Emperordaniel]

Maybe he has Malack's Amazing Mummy-Making Spell?

Is that in any way related to Tsukiko's Amazing Wight-Making Spell?

[zimmerwald1915]

Is that in any way related to Tsukiko's Amazing Wight-Making Spell?

Y'think?

Honestly, at this point I think an argument can be made that the whole creation of undead is handled differently, in terms of how many and what kinds of undead can be created by one spell, how long casting that spell takes, and various other restrictions, in OOTS than it is in 3.5D&D. Most of the changes make the creation of undead - and not incidentally the depiction of the creation of undead - a quicker and easier to show process.

[Dark Matter]

Honestly, at this point I think an argument can be made that the whole creation of undead is handled differently, in terms of how many and what kinds of undead can be created by one spell, how long casting that spell takes, and various other restrictions, in OOTS than it is in 3.5D&D. Most of the changes make the creation of undead - and not incidentally the depiction of the creation of undead - a quicker and easier to show process.

The problem is we're clearly dealing with an exceptional case here, and we don't know why it's exceptional or how that effects things.

Example, if the house rule is "A 15th level Cleric can turn mummified corpses into Mummies with the Animate Dead Spell", then that explains everything.

But there are lots of other house rules which would do the same thing.

[zimmerwald1915]

The problem is we're clearly dealing with an exceptional case here, and we don't know why it's exceptional or how that effects things.

Example, if the house rule is "A 15th level Cleric can turn mummified corpses into Mummies with the Animate Dead Spell", then that explains everything.

But there are lots of other house rules which would do the same thing.

That's just the point. There's no point in trying to make a case for any particular geeky explanation other than "it's some kind of house rule".

[SavageWombat]

Much as I dislike "Spontaneous Metamagic" feats, I'm beginning to be suspicious of how many Quickened spells V just "happens" to have prepared.

[zimmerwald1915]

Much as I dislike "Spontaneous Metamagic" feats, I'm beginning to be suspicious of how many Quickened spells V just "happens" to have prepared.

Why? Quicken Spell is one of the better metamagic feats. V's used Expeditious retreat at least three times in the past that I can remember: fleeing the ogres in the Dungeon of Dorukan, exiting the trial scene, and charging the elementals on the wall of Azure City. Quickened Expeditious Retreat is, since V has barred Conjuration, one of a very few fourth-level spells which would help her mobility...and it can be cast as a swift action. Haste would obviously be better, and we've seen V use Quickened Haste before, but using it only on herself would be a waste.

Oh, and V knows Passwall.

[Lvl45DM!]

Is the latest strip trying to say Z-man has trapfinding skills? or is he just being a smartarse

[Felixc-91]

Is the latest strip trying to say Z-man has trapfinding skills? or is he just being a smartarse

i'm thinking, smartarse. the trap is in motion, belkar would notice it.

[ti'esar]

Is the latest strip trying to say Z-man has trapfinding skills? or is he just being a smartarse

I'd go with the latter, since he's clearly referring to the mummy being crushed, not pointing out the trap beforehand.

[Kurald Galain]

Added Passwall to V's list.

I think Z is either being a smartass, or just making a spot check that the rest of his team is failing.

And to throw another theory out there, are Malack's undead troops actually mummies? Because they don't look or act like mummies - they look and act like zombies (which are easily acquireable en masse from the Animate Dead spell). Note that mummies are intelligent, and cause paralysis on sight. Perhaps Nale meant that since the dungeon is a pyramidal shape in the desert, it clearly has mummies in it, and he hopes the Order will be cornered with some of those?

[Emperordaniel]

And to throw another theory out there, are Malack's undead troops actually mummies? Because they don't look or act like mummies - they look and act like zombies (which are easily acquireable en masse from the Animate Dead spell). Note that mummies are intelligent, and cause paralysis on sight. Perhaps Nale meant that since the dungeon is a pyramidal shape in the desert, it clearly has mummies in it, and he hopes the Order will be cornered with some of those?

According to Rich, they are mummies, as in the the undead "mummy".

[Kurald Galain]

According to Rich, they are mummies, as in the the undead "mummy".

Okay, scratch that theory.

So all we know that Malack has a spell that creates mummies. This could be a houseruled Animate Dead (which creates a lot of undead fast, but doesn't do mummies), or a houseruled Create Undead (which creates mummies, but only one at a time and only at night), or a spell from some splatbook that I'm unaware of, or it could be Malack's Amazing Mummy-Making Spell. Since we've seen this situation before, I bet that if somebody were to ask The Giant, he would answer something resembling the latter.

[Emperordaniel]

So all we know that Malack has a spell that creates mummies. This could be a houseruled Animate Dead (which creates a lot of undead fast, but doesn't do mummies), or a houseruled Create Undead (which creates mummies, but only one at a time and only at night), or a spell from some splatbook that I'm unaware of, or it could be Malack's Amazing Mummy-Making Spell. Since we've seen this situation before, I bet that if somebody were to ask The Giant, he would answer something resembling the latter.

I personally prefer Malack's Magnificent Mummy-Making Spell; "Amazing" sounds more like a descriptor Tsukiko would have given her spells than Malack would have, to me at least.

[Chessgeek]

I personally prefer Malack's Magnificent Mummy-Making Spell; "Amazing" sounds more like a descriptor Tsukiko would have given her spells than Malack would have, to me at least.

I cast my vote for Malack's Marvelous Mummy-Making Spell.

[137beth]

I cast my vote for Malack's Marvelous Mummy-Making Spell.

Sorry, that doesn't have enough initial "M"s for me.
Mr. Malack's Miraculously Mesmerizing Mind-blowingly Marvelous Magnificently Monstrous Mummy-Making-Magic

(Gotta get rid of that annoying spell, there.)