Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

[Xapi]

You all dispute it because you feel one statement and Qarr's loyalty is not enough to justifiably prove if Qarr is a familiar or not. Whereas I and others have shown how loyalty is not required by RAW and just how improbable it is for Z to be fooled into thinking he has a familiar when he does not.




Except loyalty is nowhere required in being a familiar to a wizard.

I'd like to propose an alternative interpretation to the familiar issue.

Perhaps a familiar is a feature that Z gave up for some other benefit at "character creation", specially since V was clearly not using her own.

Then, V "remembered" her familiar, and started to treat it like the sentient being it is, so it started to be an asset for V.

At that time, Z felt s/he needed something to counter BW, and Sabine offered Qarr's assistance as a faux-familiar, IE, not an actual familiar with the features from the SRD, but a small lower level creature that can take care of Blackwing.

So her statement of "I have a familiar now" would be a loose description of Qarr's position as her helper, and not an actual statement of his condition as her "companion and servant" per the SRD.

I also agree that calling Qarr a familiar and the way he acts is probably incompatible.

We'd have four choices:

1 - Familiars in the OotSverse regularily behave differently than in ANY other setting or RPG table (where familiars are directly controlled by the players). This seems to be the argument of those like Emperor Sarda who believe this topic is not disputed, because RAW does not explicitely define the extent of the familiar/caster bond RE: loyalty.

2 - Z was fooled into thinking she has a familiar when in fact she does not. This does posit a number of problems regarding how a familiar is acquired.

3 - Z has taken Qarr as a familiar according to RAW, but the IFCC somehow messed with that to give Qarr a wider margin to follow their directives.

4 - Z's statement that Qarr was his familiar was in fact a loose description of his role, not a description of his condition according to the rules.

I believe all of these explanations are somewhat valid, yet each has it's problems. So, by my assesment, this matter is disputed on very well funded grounds.

[Psyren]

No. Genesis creates an entirely new (demi)plane. The Astral Plane is a pre-existing plane.

I know that (not my first rodeo ): I'm talking about Xykon's sanctum. It appears to have its own laws, e.g. subjective gravity judging by the spherical shape, which hints at it being a demiplane he created.

I'm curious if there's another way to create a structure floating in Astral space. It could even be another epic spell of his own design.


Also, did Redcloak cast 2 Gates or one? (One in this strip, and possibly one for the Resistance?) If the former, he has at least 28 Wis. Implosion doesn't count as that is a domain spell for him.

[Kalmegil]

Charm the human commander? Cause if you mean KilKil, he is just a bureaucrat or secretary and not in the military hierarchy.

I missed this before. I mean charm whoever is the leader in the htird-to-last panel in this comic. I'm not sure why you would think I'm referring to KilKil here.

******

The upshot here is that there is serious dispute about the meaning of a particular rule ("The creature serves as a companion and servant.") That warrants the disputed tag.

[EmperorSarda]

At that time, Z felt s/he needed something to counter BW, and Sabine offered Qarr's assistance as a faux-familiar, IE, not an actual familiar with the features from the SRD, but a small lower level creature that can take care of Blackwing.

So her statement of "I have a familiar now" would be a loose description of Qarr's position as her helper, and not an actual statement of his condition as her "companion and servant" per the SRD.

Then why not say that he has something to counter Darkwing instead of saying he has a familiar?

I also agree that calling Qarr a familiar and the way he acts is probably incompatible.

Belkar is a companion to the rest of the Order but has been known to throw daggers at party members, pull malicious pranks and even try to attempt murder on Elan. Servants have no requirement for loyalty either.

I believe all of these explanations are somewhat valid, yet each has it's problems. So, by my assesment, this matter is disputed on very well funded grounds.

But the dispute is based on how one thinks a familiar should act. As far as Z knows, Nale and Sabine swung by to bring him along to the Western Continent and Sabine talked to Z about a getting an imp familiar, suggesting an imp she was familiar with. As far as Z is aware, he is unaware of any and all duplicity.

It only serves for hilarious antics when V spills the beans that he was taken to the Demi-plane of ranch dressing.

I missed this before. I mean charm whoever is the leader in the htird-to-last panel in this comic. I'm not sure why you would think I'm referring to KilKil here.

Of the guards arresting Z, they're all human which Charm Monster does not work against. And we have no evidence of Qarr having Charm Person.

[Xapi]

Then why not say that he has something to counter Darkwing instead of saying he has a familiar?

Why did Redcloack say counterspell instead of whatever spell he used to counter? The narrative looks better (according to the author). There are other examples of characters saying one thing (rule wise) when the meaning is slightly different, I recall the matter of summons inside the Cloister, for instance.

Belkar is a companion to the rest of the Order but has been known to throw daggers at party members, pull malicious pranks and even try to attempt murder on Elan. Servants have no requirement for loyalty either.

A servant bound by property rights/wages and a servant bound by magic are usually different from one another. Same goes for companions, although I wouldn't even use the word companion on Belkar.

It is dangerous to delve so deep into the waters of rules as written. I'd advise against it.

But the dispute is based on how one thinks a familiar should act. As far as Z knows, Nale and Sabine swung by to bring him along to the Western Continent and Sabine talked to Z about a getting an imp familiar, suggesting an imp she was familiar with. As far as Z is aware, he is unaware of any and all duplicity.

It is based on how familiars actually DO work in every single RPG or fantasy setting I've ever heard of.

Like I've said, familiars in OOTS would have to behave VERY different to any other familiar before, and it would certainly take a very peculiar interpretation to the rules to have Qarr act as he does while being Z's familiar.

[Kalmegil]

Of the guards arresting Z, they're all human which Charm Monster does not work against. And we have no evidence of Qarr having Charm Person.

No. "This spell functions like charm person, except that the effect is not restricted by creature type or size." So it works just fine on humans.

Belkar is a companion to the rest of the Order but has been known to throw daggers at party members, pull malicious pranks and even try to attempt murder on Elan. Servants have no requirement for loyalty either.

Belkar is not there because someone spent a feat to gain an imp to serve as a companion and servant. There's a difference between us using the words "companion" to describe Belkar and the rules saying "If you have summoned a familiar, it will serve as a companion and servant." Clearly people can mean different things when they use the words "serve," "companion," and "servant." Therefore the rule is ambiguous. Therefore it is subject to reasonable dispute, and when it is disputed, it's a dispute about the words.

Edited to add for those who think number of people on a side matters. The following people have said there should be a disputed flag, or expressly said they no longer object to such a flag. The * indicates a person who thinks Qarr is a familiar but still thinks the disputed tag is acceptable.

Ancalagon
Kish*
douglas*
Flame of Anor*
Wolfe
Lvl45DM!*
Xapi

I believe that each person without a * has made a detailed, reasoned post outlining why they think it's disputed.

[EmperorSarda]

It is based on how familiars actually DO work in every single RPG or fantasy setting I've ever heard of.

Yes, they work that way because they are played that way. Because DM's would be crazy to have a glorified class feature that would not be completely loyal and do what the player wants the familiar to do. As far as plot and an interesting story go, I think it works.

No. "This spell functions like charm person, except that the effect is not restricted by creature type or size." So it works just fine on humans.

Oh. Whoops. So he could have done something then.

[Wolfe]

so if two or three people think something and they can't convince anyone else to agree with them, that doesn't count.

How many does it take?

It is important to note that this thread is about facts and evidence. [...] For example, it is easy to claim that Elan is a doppelganger (after all, he does nothing that a doppelganger can't do, and the comic nowhere explicitly states that he's not a doppelganger). But unless you have evidence that he is, it doesn't count as a dispute for his race in the top post.

There are facts and evidence that Blackwing disputes Qarr's status as familiar. There are facts and evidence that Qarr is not a "servant" to Z, but to the Archfiends. There are facts and evidence that his relationship with Z is "a cover story". Is any of this false or incorrect?

The doppleganger thing is a red herring and a ridiculous straw man argument. Your strawman, your problem. I'm not touching it.

So please, if you bring up a new issue, don't immediately ask for a tag, but allow some time for discussion first.

We are discussing it. But just to know: how much time is "time"?

[Chronos]

Also, did Redcloak cast 2 Gates or one? (One in this strip, and possibly one for the Resistance?) If the former, he has at least 28 Wis. Implosion doesn't count as that is a domain spell for him.

I was wondering about that, too. I had been assuming that the devils all came from Planar Ally spells, but that the elemental was Extended Summon Monster VIII (all of Redcloak's base level-8 spells are otherwise accounted for). Given that he had a Gate in reserve, it seems to imply at least one bonus 8th-level spell, for a 26 Wis.

Xykon also has some means of traveling to the Astral Plane on his own power. I'd have to double-check what we know of his spells known list, but I don't think he has room for any spell that would work, so that's presumably an item (or possibly an epic spell, but that seems overkill). One snag is that most items that would allow that would also require the use of a planar-travel spell to construct them. Though I suppose he could have had Redcloak's cooperation.

And it's hard to say what Xykon used to build his new astral fortress, but it's presumably the same thing he used to build his green tower in Azure City, whatever that was.

[Flame of Anor]

Also, as Douglas noted earlier, the dispute tag is for issues where numerous people are on both sides; so if two or three people think something and they can't convince anyone else to agree with them, that doesn't count.

That sounds logical. Can we maybe start out by getting polls on the most-argued issues, so we can see if there are any we can settle right off the bat?

• Flying encumbrance
• Silver rapier
• Qarr as familiar
• other issues?

[EmperorSarda]

There are facts and evidence that Blackwing disputes Qarr's status as familiar. There are facts and evidence that Qarr is not a "servant" to Z, but to the Archfiends. There are facts and evidence that his relationship with Z is "a cover story". Is any of this false or incorrect?

So Blackwing discovers that Qarr is a agent of the IFC and that means he cannot be a familiar either? They are not mutually exclusive. He can be Z's familiar in the legal RAW sense and still be working for the IFC.

Also, while ever Player would naturally expect the DM to not touch their familiars and not mess with loyalty, Z is not a PC. Who is to say that a DM could not make a baddie whose familiar is more closely aligned with the Baddie's boss than with his wizard to whom it is bound?

What player would tell the DM that the NPC's familiar should be more loyal to the NPC than the NPC's boss if it makes for a good plot twist?

[ti'esar]

That sounds logical. Can we maybe start out by getting polls on the most-argued issues, so we can see if there are any we can settle right off the bat?

• Flying encumbrance
• Silver rapier
• Qarr as familiar
• other issues?

While I have no opinions on the other two issues, I've come around to believing that Elan's rapier is now silver.

[Flame of Anor]

While I have no opinions on the other two issues, I've come around to believing that Elan's rapier is now silver.

I have been convinced it's barely possible, but I still don't think there's sufficient evidence for it to be listed. What's the evidence, other than his Beatles song reference? The art? Let me explain something: in the bright desert sunshine, reflective metal is going to look much brighter.

[ti'esar]

It seems have consistently been drawn that color since that point, however, and wasn't drawn that way before. And yes, the original "evidence" is a Beatles song reference, but the joke isn't mutually exclusive with Elan having an actual silver rapier.

[Kalmegil]

He can be Z's familiar in the legal RAW sense and still be working for the IFC.

You keep saying this. What RAW evidence is there that this is true? Note that "working for the IFC" means 1) abandoning his captured wizard to go report to the IFC and 2) chastizing Sabine for showing too much support for the LG member she is attached to at the expense of the IFC, among other things listed previously.

It requires a particular interpretation of "serves as a companion and servant" to say that the rules allow Qarr to act in this manner while he is a familiar. That interpretation might be correct. But you're trying to elevate your interpretation of an ambiguous rule to RAW level, and there's no basis to do so.

The relevant rule is ambiguous. It cannot be applied without interpretation. A reasonable interpretation has been offered by several people that suggests Qarr is not serving as a companion and servant and, therefore, is not clearly a familiar.

I've counted 7 people who think the disputed tag is either correct or that the arguments presented in support of a disputed tag are reasonable enough to warrant the tag. More than half are people who think Qarr is a familiar. This is a dispute about the rules. If this doesn't warrant a "disputed" tag, it's hard to think what would.

[Xapi]

So Blackwing discovers that Qarr is a agent of the IFC and that means he cannot be a familiar either? They are not mutually exclusive. He can be Z's familiar in the legal RAW sense and still be working for the IFC.

Also, while ever Player would naturally expect the DM to not touch their familiars and not mess with loyalty, Z is not a PC. Who is to say that a DM could not make a baddie whose familiar is more closely aligned with the Baddie's boss than with his wizard to whom it is bound?

What player would tell the DM that the NPC's familiar should be more loyal to the NPC than the NPC's boss if it makes for a good plot twist?

The fact that Blackwing confronts Qarr with his actions is a clear indication that the concept of a familiar owing loyalty to his master is not something we just made up, but an actual characteristic of the class feature.

I think you are trying to close an argument (IE: Claming it's not disputed) on the basis of a very unlikely interpretation of the rules.

If I cast a spell whose descriptor said "If the targeted person fails his save, he becomes your servant and companion for 2 days." would you believe this target to be able to hide things from me, working on an agenda that is at some point against my interests?

[EmperorSarda]

You keep saying this. What RAW evidence is there that this is true? Note that "working for the IFC" means 1) abandoning his captured wizard to go report to the IFC and 2) chastizing Sabine for showing too much support for the LG member she is attached to at the expense of the IFC, among other things listed previously.

It requires a particular interpretation of "serves as a companion and servant" to say that the rules allow Qarr to act in this manner while he is a familiar. That interpretation might be correct. But you're trying to elevate your interpretation of an ambiguous rule to RAW level, and there's no basis to do so.

The relevant rule is ambiguous. It cannot be applied without interpretation. A reasonable interpretation has been offered by several people that suggests Qarr is not serving as a companion and servant and, therefore, is not clearly a familiar.

I've counted 7 people who think the disputed tag is either correct or that the arguments presented in support of a disputed tag are reasonable enough to warrant the tag. More than half are people who think Qarr is a familiar. This is a dispute about the rules. If this doesn't warrant a "disputed" tag, it's hard to think what would.

*Shrug* Throw up the tag then.

[Once&FutureKing]

It seems like Xykon must have Astral Projection, because he would be a class A moron to build a fortress in a plane he can't get to under his own power, and this spell makes the most sense (though Gate is also possible I suppose). Either way, Xykon seems to have another level 9 spell, which is stupid because it suggests his level is higher still (never mind about the Epic Ring he might have forged, that puts him to level 35 without this), in order to have the extra spell learnt.

Oh, and he built the fortress with Stone Shape.

[Psyren]

It seems like Xykon must have Astral Projection, because he would be a class A moron to build a fortress in a plane he can't get to under his own power, and this spell makes the most sense (though Gate is also possible I suppose).

Astral Projection doesn't actually take you to the Astral Plane; it just creates a copy of you there while you stay home. To truly go to the Astral Plane he'd need Plane Shift or Gate, and his request to RC indicates he doesn't know the latter.

Oh, and he built the fortress with Stone Shape.

It's possible, but wouldn't he need a rock that size to shape? He'd have to bring it in with him too, unless the Astral Plane has planetoids floating around.

[ti'esar]

It's possible, but wouldn't he need a rock that size to shape? He'd have to bring it in with him too, unless the Astral Plane has planetoids floating around.

I think it does, in fact. (Actually, in at least some older editions they were the remains of dead gods, but I doubt that holds true in the OOTS-verse).

[Douglas]

Xykon's 9th level spells are all taken, so he doesn't have Gate. His 7th level spells are also all filled in, so that seems to exclude Plane Shift, but the list does have an unknown 8th level spot. That could be Greater Plane Shift, or Rich could have used a slightly flexible rules interpretation to fill that spot with the lower level Plane Shift spell in order to keep it core.

Or Xykon could be using scrolls of Plane Shift or some other magic item. Judging by his comment about "a bunch of scrolls" in the current strip (833), he has ready access to large numbers of scrolls. I highly doubt this access is limited to scrolls he can make himself, as he'd have no reason to bother with scrolls when he can just cast the spell directly, so an effectively unlimited (through regular replenishment) supply of scrolls of Plane Shift seems reasonable.

Regardless, all that's really clear at this point is that Xykon has some means of interplanar travel independent of Redcloak. There are far too many possibilities for what it is to list any specific one with any substantial degree of confidence.

[lord_khaine]

Should there not at the same time be a disputed tag on Xykons level?
As i recall there were certainly enough discussion over it last time it came up.

Also, there is a minor mistake in Celia's entry, where the number of 3rd level spells she cast is used as evidence for her charisma, something that doesnt make sense when we dont have evidence for her sorcerer casting level.

[Chronos]

Also, there is a minor mistake in Celia's entry, where the number of 3rd level spells she cast is used as evidence for her charisma, something that doesnt make sense when we dont have evidence for her sorcerer casting level.

I think that that's under the principle of assuming the lowest consistent level, which IIRC is one of the established guiding principles of this thread.

[Kish]

I think that that's under the principle of assuming the lowest consistent level, which IIRC is one of the established guiding principles of this thread.

If "assume the lowest consistent character level, raise every other 'established minimum' stat as much as possible to fit that" is an established guiding principle of this thread, 1) Xykon's level should be listed as lower--not "disputed," just lower--and 2) this is a principle that I certainly never got to vote on.

Celia can cast at least four third-level spells per day. So she is either at least 7th level, or has a Charisma of at least 16. Neither possibility should be privileged over the other.

[Kurald Galain]

Added link for Haley's languages. Removed minimum con from Haley and Roy, for lack of evidence.

How many does it take?

I don't think it helps this thread to make it formally bureaucrating and state that a petition needs 50 signatures within two weeks, so we're not going to do that.

That said, I'm fine with a disputed tag on Qarr's familiarity (familiarness? familitude?). I have the feeling that this issue is going to be resolved the next time Zz'dtri appears in-comic.

Also, since Tarquin is definitely middle aged, he should have his age related ability modifiers, so I've added them in.

Good catch.

Let me explain something: in the bright desert sunshine, reflective metal is going to look much brighter.

Again, your argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny: none of the other reflective metal items has changed color, and Elan's rapier is still silver-colored when he's indoors out of the sun.

I think that that's under the principle of assuming the lowest consistent level, which IIRC is one of the established guiding principles of this thread.

Correct. This should go in the FAQ.

Should there not at the same time be a disputed tag on Xykons level?

Yes, and also on several of his feats. Also, he should have a bunch of scrolls added to his inventory.

Xykon's 9th level spells are all taken, so he doesn't have Gate. His 7th level spells are also all filled in, so that seems to exclude Plane Shift, but the list does have an unknown 8th level spot. That could be Greater Plane Shift, or Rich could have used a slightly flexible rules interpretation to fill that spot with the lower level Plane Shift spell in order to keep it core.

That sounds plausible. Any other opinions on this?

[Kish]

That sounds plausible. Any other opinions on this?

Not guaranteed that he doesn't know Gate.

[RMS Oceanic]

Since we can't precisely determine Xykon's method of travel to the Astral Plane at this time, I've marked it down as an unspecified spell. I don't intend to add his scrolls or his possession of the fake phylactery until the next time we see him, because he's made his intention clear to use the scrolls and deposit the phylactery in his fortress.

The dispute over Xykon's level comes from two decisions that I think has never been adequately agreed upon: Whether we assume magic items are at work, or whether we assume non-core explanations. To do what he did with no magic items and with core-only material, Xykon has to be level 27 to procure the feats he'd need to do it. The Complete Arcane feat Sudden Maximize would negate the need for Epic Feats, but CA is not a core source. Likewise a Greater Metamagic Rod of Maximize would negate the epic feats, but we don't see him wield one and unlike Rings, Rods are fairly conspicuous at 2-3 feet in length.

I think we need to discuss whether we should always strive for the lowest level with any explanation, or should this remain within the context of using core-only explanations unless there literally aren't any? My personal feelings would be to stay with core-only and not to assume Xykon couldn't do that without a magic item, especially within the context of him demonstrating the power he has by "staying in the game" to Vaarsuvius in the strip. However it's something we can discuss, and what we decide can be added to the FAQ.

I've added a dispute tag to Qarr's familiar status. Hopefully we'll get a clearer picture of their relationship the next time we see the Linear Guild.

[Once&FutureKing]

Should there not at the same time be a disputed tag on Xykons level?
As i recall there were certainly enough discussion over it last time it came up.

Also, there is a minor mistake in Celia's entry, where the number of 3rd level spells she cast is used as evidence for her charisma, something that doesnt make sense when we dont have evidence for her sorcerer casting level.

I asked what reasonable evidence we have of xykon being lower than 27, which isn't made up of extremely unlikely and unsupported non-core theories (like invisible meta-magic rods), and I got an empty silence. There's more evidence Xykon is above 27 than there is he is 21.

[fractal]

Please count me in the "I don't think we can assume Xykon is level 27+" camp. Unless Xykon thinks Roy is level 20 in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html , it seems pretty unlikely. (It certainly seems unlikely that he'd guess Roy is 7 or 8 levels lower than he is when it's actually a difference of 13+.)

However, if we _do_ conclude that Xykon has lots of Improved Spell Capacity, doesn't that contradict the evidence given for his Charisma being 28+? (Namely, that he cast seven 9th level spells in a day.) He could just use his higher level spell slots for the excess castings, and get up to at least nine that way.

[Once&FutureKing]

....

No.

"Some vague remark he made to Roy" is not good evidence. It's horrible evidence. I do agree the indications early on was Xykon was no more than 20, because otherwise Durkon would have been unable to dispel his greater invisibility...but it's clear that's been hand waved in order to massively level up Xykon (or I suppose someone else cast invisibility, even though it's implausible... maybe a scroll?).

The other stuff is pretty hardcore evidence, and no, there's no way for him to be lower than 27 without non-core, ridiculous, left field ass pulls. In addition, people have done calculations showing if he really did forge an item that lets him be immune to fire (say a ring of fire immunity, which is of the grade we're talking about to no sell a meteor swarm) then he'd be at level 35. If he has another 9th level spell (like Gate), he levels up again. If he has another Epic spell, he levels up again. If he has more epic spell slots, he levels up more. This is annoying because we're likely to see all these things as the plot progresses, and it's going to get to the point where Xykon's level is absurdly implausible (and people will be asking "why didn't he use that last time he was in dire straights!?")

As for the Charisma part... I don't honestly care what his Charisma is, but for those who do, the incident in question occurred literally years ago. We don't even know if he had improved spell capacity years ago.