Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

[Reverent-One]

If by "many" you mean "two or three", then yes. Also, once again, what they've posted is not consistent with what the surges actually do.

Sorry, but just claiming that it's not consistent with what they do doesn't make it true, no matter how much you repeat it. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to actually address the opposing points, not just keep insisting you're right without giving reasons why.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I personally have no problem with the general idea of the healing surge mechanic or similar recharge-yourself-throughout-the-day mechanics, I just have an issue with the fact that they work with precisely the same effectiveness X times and then not at all on the [X+1]th and subsequent times. If healing potions and warlord healing and such are supposed to represent drawing on your own stamina, which becomes less effective over the day, it would make more sense for them to apply a gradually decreasing amount of healing than to have a purely binary effect. Whether it's a certain amount of healing with a gradually increasing penalty (say, start at HP = surge value, minus Con mod every time, and throw in "a short rest reduces the penalty by your Con mod" for giggles), or whether healing is dependent on the healer's attributes somehow and every use of healing penalizes that (e.g. 1/2 level * key stat, -1 effective CL per previous use) for easier math, or even something like reserve points, I'd prefer that to the current system. You wouldn't even need to uncap the number of surges you get--as long as there's a noticeable dip in effectiveness each time, I can justify why you run out of surges, as opposed to "fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, nothing."

My group actually tried something like this the last time someone ran a 4e one-shot, and it worked out well enough. Healing potions weren't all that abusable because you're not going to pull one out if it's only going to heal single-digit HP at paragon tier, the cleric got to use the line "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak" a few times, after a particularly long and heavy battle the fighter was breathing heavily and telling the warlord "I don't care...how much you yell, Sarge...I ain't moving from this spot...til I take a little breather....", and the whole thing made healing potions seem a lot more like Red Bull and a lot less like randomly-functional HP-regenerating machines.

[Tyndmyr]

Buddy, HP was never about the physical damage you took. If they were, then pretty much everyone should die after falling off a 50' cliff or taking a dagger to the face.

That entirely depends on the level of realism you care to play at.

A completely hp = damage viewpoint is quite consistent in 3.5 if you don't mind tougher martial chars surviving a dip in lava or freefalling from the sky.

[Clawhound]

Suggestion for 5th Edition: Don't give Deity's stats. As it's been proven in the past, "Anything with stats can be killed." You can give them portfollios, domains, and ranks if you want, but just don't give them stats.

Question: Should there be level caps like there was in 2.0? We already know that when characters reach level 40+(possibly even 20+), they can break the action economy and the worlds financial economy. Should there be caps put on characters levels? Or possibly class levels?

In video games where there is a level cap, once you hit that cap, you can still increase in power by aquiring better items, spells, or abilities. Would that be possible in 5th edition, or should they remove level caps and adjust the rules for epic level characters so they don't break the world into a thousand pieces?

Common pieces of magic should have a price (or price range). Anything uncommon or rare should have no price.

If characters can hit all the numbers that they should, we can avoid the whole "wealth by level" fiasco. That will help us avoid the whole wealth fiasco in general.

We can add additional "wealths" into the game as well. The Sword of Moe gives you +1 martial prestige, while the Grail of Duff's gives you +1 divine prestige. You use prestige to buy social advantages. Or maybe you can use that +1 martial prestige to trade for a +1 weapon, while that +1 divine prestige trades for a magic holy symbol. That would help the feel of a barter economy.

We can also do abstract wealth.

[Reverent-One]

I personally have no problem with the general idea of the healing surge mechanic or similar recharge-yourself-throughout-the-day mechanics, I just have an issue with the fact that they work with precisely the same effectiveness X times and then not at all on the [X+1]th and subsequent times. If healing potions and warlord healing and such are supposed to represent drawing on your own stamina, which becomes less effective over the day, it would make more sense for them to apply a gradually decreasing amount of healing than to have a purely binary effect. Whether it's a certain amount of healing with a gradually increasing penalty (say, start at HP = surge value, minus Con mod every time, and throw in "a short rest reduces the penalty by your Con mod" for giggles), or whether healing is dependent on the healer's attributes somehow and every use of healing penalizes that (e.g. 1/2 level * key stat, -1 effective CL per previous use) for easier math, or even something like reserve points, I'd prefer that to the current system. You wouldn't even need to uncap the number of surges you get--as long as there's a noticeable dip in effectiveness each time, I can justify why you run out of surges, as opposed to "fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, nothing."

I can understand the arugment to have a diminishing amount of healing from each healing surge, but by that same logic your combat effectiveness should go down as you lose hit points instead of it merely determining the binary state of A) perfectly combat capable or B) unconsious. And if they're not handling hit points that way, why apply that extra detail to healing surges? It's inconsistent then, perhaps unimportantly inconsistent, but still.

[Tyndmyr]

Common pieces of magic should have a price (or price range). Anything uncommon or rare should have no price.

If characters can hit all the numbers that they should, we can avoid the whole "wealth by level" fiasco. That will help us avoid the whole wealth fiasco in general.

We can add additional "wealths" into the game as well. The Sword of Moe gives you +1 martial prestige, while the Grail of Duff's gives you +1 divine prestige. You use prestige to buy social advantages. Or maybe you can use that +1 martial prestige to trade for a +1 weapon, while that +1 divine prestige trades for a magic holy symbol. That would help the feel of a barter economy.

We can also do abstract wealth.

Well, here's the thing...what happens when you want to sell that uncommon or rare magical thing? There needs to be a price. There's a difference between something having a price and assuming that a given item is always available if you have the funds.

Also, I hate wealth systems so much. Barter systems lead to lots of arguing and bargaining, and wealth systems are prone to exploitation. Consider D20 Modern's wealth system...it's horrific.

I can understand the arugment to have a diminishing amount of healing from each healing surge, but by that same logic your combat effectiveness should go down as you lose hit points instead of it merely determining the binary state of A) perfectly combat capable or B) unconsious. And if they're not handling hit points that way, why apply that extra detail to healing surges? It's inconsistent then, perhaps unimportantly inconsistent, but still.

We really should have an in-between stage, if we want 4e to be consistent. Let's call it...say...bloodied. Let's put it at half hit points. Bam, we no longer have a binary state.

[Rathyr]

If by "many" you mean "two or three", then yes. Also, once again, what they've posted is not consistent with what the surges actually do.

Please. Two or three on this thread, perhaps. I can go find you explanations far better than mine detailing the many ways to interpret healing surges, on other threads or forums. It's hardly a topic that hasn't been debated in the past.

As Reverent-One said, you need to explain how surges are not consistent with what they are meant to do, instead of just repeating that they don't work in-character. Otherwise, we are both wasting our time with this conversation.

No, you don't. Don't put words in my mouth.

Your idea of having different types of stamina pools for different types of healing seemed to suggest you did not like the "all healing draws from this one source, regardless of flavor". Apologies if that is not the case.

[Seerow]

Well, here's the thing...what happens when you want to sell that uncommon or rare magical thing? There needs to be a price. There's a difference between something having a price and assuming that a given item is always available if you have the funds.

Also, I hate wealth systems so much. Barter systems lead to lots of arguing and bargaining, and wealth systems are prone to exploitation. Consider D20 Modern's wealth system...it's horrific.

Why would you be wanting to sell your amazing magic items? If the magic item is actually that valuable, it probably shouldn't be something you can sell to a merchant, even a really rich one. I've used the Shards from The Way of Kings as an example before, and I think they're a good one. People who acquire a shard generally won't give them up for anything. If someone gets extras somehow, they give them to close friends and allies. Wars are fought over the things, and VERY rarely they get used as bargaining chips between people with power. But outright selling one is unheard of.

[erikun]

You're missing the point. I'm not saying there are actually parties that use only at-wills in encounters, but giving an obvious theoretical example of how the damage can vary in a fight and your choices can affect that amount as erikun seemed to consider the damage you take in a fight to be something of a constant. That specific example is an extreme one, but is no less true because of that.

Not constant, but rather continuous. Sure, you could dump several dailies into an encounter to end it in half the time, but it doing so the opponents would throw out their most damaging attacks in response. You'd prevent the damage from several rounds of at-will attacks, but that isn't where the majority of the damage comes from.

Older editions had ways of actually not taking damage, though. In pre-3e, ambushes actually meant something and had a good chance of killing of or seriously injuring most opponents. Pre-4e had magical healing items, such as potions or Pearls of Power, that could be bought at used when the party wanted to keep going. The only thing that 4e offers in that regard, though, is the mentioned ritual that allows swapping healing surges between characters - nice if one character has problems, but not if the whole party is worn down.

Perhaps games heavily focused on minions or much higher level play differently, but my games ranging between first level and fifteenth have been the above. The insistence on cinematic combat (with still limited resources) and the inability to spend any other resource to keep the party going have pretty much taken away my options on when to stop adventuring for the day.

(And to whoever recommended buying more armor, the exponentially increasing price prevent that from being an option.)

I don't see the problem with this. It's not just healing potions, it's healing surges healing in general. Clearly there are camps of people that think that "magic healing" should bypass all physical restrictions, all the time. There are some heals like that (clerics, in general, have the most "surgeless healing in 4e, which is very powerful), but most follow the surge mechanic.

I'm fine with the concept of healing surges, representing stored resilience or whatever and that magic cannot help someone who has been extended beyond their limit. Heck, such logic appears in fantasy literature from time to time as well.

The problem is that it isn't a very good game mechanic. It stops the game and tells the players that they're done playing, at least with the rest of the system insisting on large combats with every encounter.

[Rathyr]

I'm fine with the concept of healing surges, representing stored resilience or whatever and that magic cannot help someone who has been extended beyond their limit. Heck, such logic appears in fantasy literature from time to time as well.

The problem is that it isn't a very good game mechanic. It stops the game and tells the players that they're done playing, at least with the rest of the system insisting on large combats with every encounter.

I'm failing to see how running out of surges in 4e is any different than running out of healing spells/potions/wands of previous editions. You've expended your resources, and didn't make it as far as you planned to. To me, complaining about running out of healing surges is like complaining when a monster reduces you to zero HPs. It's a limit on your character, and you need to be aware of it.

No game mechanic is perfect. I'd love to see more things along the lines of the ritual that allow the party to push on for another fight or two... but you also have to keep in mind, what is the point of having a resource limitation if you simply allow the party to bypass it anytime it becomes a problem? Would you allow a Wizard to recharge all of his spells because he spent them too quickly?

[kyoryu]

The common explanation for second wind and warlord healing is "Your not actually taking damage. Just loosing energy".

If my potion is regenerating my tissue I have no idea how its limited by my stamina. Sos the same with magic. If its regenerating my energy (Which seems more likely for 4e) then its both regenerating your energy and draining you of it.

Sort of. I view healing surges as your overall health, fitness, ability to keep going, etc. Hit points is more like the trauma you've recently taken.

The boxing analogy is the one I like the best - a boxer can get beat up badly in a round, to the point of almost dropping (hit point loss), then rest for a minute, and go and do it again (short rest/healing surges). At some point, though, he'll reach his reserves of endurance and can't do it (easy knockout at the beginning of the round).

And I've always viewed warlord healing as more of a "grit your teeth and bear it" thing. The wounds are there, but you press on regardless. D&D has always been pretty bad about actually representing wounds, anyway.

[Tyndmyr]

I'm failing to see how running out of surges in 4e is any different than running out of healing spells/potions/wands of previous editions. You've expended your resources, and didn't make it as far as you planned to. To me, complaining about running out of healing surges is like complaining when a monster reduces you to zero HPs. It's a limit on your character, and you need to be aware of it.

The difference is as follows:

3.5: I'm bleeding everywhere, out of potions, and Im trapped in the middle of the desert. Oh crap, this is going to be ugly.

4e: Well, I've got this giant pile of potions that I am sunbathing on, but they do nothing to me. Worked fine a minute ago, but now? I'm all alone in the desert, entirely unable to heal myself with potions of frigging HEALING. Hell, I'd complain about them not even quenching my thirst, but dehydration is not a thing, so I'll just bake in the sun for 24 hours, and BAM, potions start working again.

[Crow]

Well, here's the thing...what happens when you want to sell that uncommon or rare magical thing? There needs to be a price. There's a difference between something having a price and assuming that a given item is always available if you have the funds.

Your character decides how much the item is worth to him, and then you try to find someone else who wants it and is willing to pay. Then you negotiate when what he thinks it's worth doesn't match with what you think it's worth.

Come to an agreement, and it's sold.

[kyoryu]

The difference is as follows:

3.5: I'm bleeding everywhere, out of potions, and Im trapped in the middle of the desert. Oh crap, this is going to be ugly.

4e: Well, I've got this giant pile of potions that I am sunbathing on, but they do nothing to me. Worked fine a minute ago, but now? I'm all alone in the desert, entirely unable to heal myself with potions of frigging HEALING. Hell, I'd complain about them not even quenching my thirst, but dehydration is not a thing, so I'll just bake in the sun for 24 hours, and BAM, potions start working again.

"I've been so beat up today that even my potions seem unable to help me. Perhaps if I rest, I can pull myself from the precipice of death, and maybe the potions will be able to ignite that little spark of life."

It is, of course, totally inconsistent with the idea of hp = 100% damage, which I know is your opinion, but I think that's a minority opinion, and isn't really supported by any game materials in any version.

[Tyndmyr]

Your character decides how much the item is worth to him, and then you try to find someone else who wants it and is willing to pay. Then you negotiate when what he thinks it's worth doesn't match with what you think it's worth.

Come to an agreement, and it's sold.

How does this process work, mechanically?

[Tiki Snakes]

I've never had a problem with healing surges as representing the total amount of healing that can be imposed upon a person. I'm sure I'd read in several books similar concepts, where magical healing in particular can only do so much before it actually starts to be unhelpful or even outright dangerous for the target. I quite like the concept, infact. It's rare that I've ever seen a player run out anyway.

Though, yeah, I can't see any real reason why Healing Potions wouldn't key off of your Surge value. I've only really seen them used in practice as a way of antisocial characters to avoid relying on the rest of the party (only really a one off occurrance) or more often as an in-case-of-emergency way to stop someone from failing death saving throws (incase of clerical/warlordy incompetance and/or unavailability).

[Kurald Galain]

This article gives some impression of the 5E mechanics (or at least, their prototype).

[Tyndmyr]

Why would you be wanting to sell your amazing magic items? If the magic item is actually that valuable, it probably shouldn't be something you can sell to a merchant, even a really rich one. I've used the Shards from The Way of Kings as an example before, and I think they're a good one. People who acquire a shard generally won't give them up for anything. If someone gets extras somehow, they give them to close friends and allies. Wars are fought over the things, and VERY rarely they get used as bargaining chips between people with power. But outright selling one is unheard of.

Because money IS power. Can you think of a real life example of an item that has not been sold for power, or that nobody, anywhere would want to sell, yet was valuable?

[Seerow]

Because money IS power. Can you think of a real life example of an item that has not been sold for power, or that nobody, anywhere would want to sell, yet was valuable?

Let me put it this way. Imagine in real life, today, someone invented a teleportation machine. He COULD sell it for an outrageous amount of money, or he could keep it for his own use and profit through using it. Or he could sell limited access to it and profit through the leasing. Either of the latter options would likely be far more valuable in the long run.


Adventurers are almost certainly going to be rich just based on their adventures. No need for selling magic items for wealth and power, they get those things as they actually do stuff, and chances are magic items are helping them accomplish that. Magic items shouldn't get to the point where they are prolific enough for a set market price to be established. The second you reach that point, you also reach the point where you can buy magic items with gold. And now you're back to 3.5 wealth by level. The only way to actually avoid a wealth by level scenario is to divorce the relationship between magic and gold, and making items valuable enough that players aren't looking for the nearest place to vend it.

[Clawhound]

Well, here's the thing...what happens when you want to sell that uncommon or rare magical thing? There needs to be a price. There's a difference between something having a price and assuming that a given item is always available if you have the funds.

Also, I hate wealth systems so much. Barter systems lead to lots of arguing and bargaining, and wealth systems are prone to exploitation. Consider D20 Modern's wealth system...it's horrific.

This is why I propose something of an alternate-to-gold system.

You found a +1 flaming sword. They're rare enough. Nobody has enough money to buy it, but they do have other things to trade. You give it to the Duke, and the Duke grants you a title, a charter, land, or something else cool.

I did some experimentation with giving folks more abstract rewards. I would give them valueless things that others wanted, and they could pick the actual reward within a value range. For example, "The Scone of Stones", the most inedible scone ever produced, has fallen into the players' hands. The stumblingdrunk dwarves want it badly. The players trade it for a +2 shield of defending.

So you still buy and sell, and players still get what they want, you just avoid most of the gold counting.

In essence, a magic item becomes currency, trade-able for like currency in the same tier.

Another thing that I did was to give the players ingredients. When they got enough together, they could do a ritual to make a magic item. Once again, they got to decide what they made.

"Oh, a bag of fire gems. They are good for making fire-based magic items."

The worst way that I gave them wealth was to let them find things. Sometimes it worked, but most of the time folks were just unhappy. Having some utility beyond "we sell it" really did help the game.

[Rathyr]

The difference is as follows:

3.5: I'm bleeding everywhere, out of potions, and Im trapped in the middle of the desert. Oh crap, this is going to be ugly.

4e: Well, I've got this giant pile of potions that I am sunbathing on, but they do nothing to me. Worked fine a minute ago, but now? I'm all alone in the desert, entirely unable to heal myself with potions of frigging HEALING. Hell, I'd complain about them not even quenching my thirst, but dehydration is not a thing, so I'll just bake in the sun for 24 hours, and BAM, potions start working again.

What DM worth his salt would let someone in the middle of the blazing desert (with no shelter/supplies) count as getting a extended rest? Needs to be uninterupted and... restful? If you cannot meet these basic requirements, you don't get your surges back.

Anyways, your comparison did nothing to illustrate how 1e/2e/3e limited healing mechanics (spells/potions/wands) differ in a meaningful, mechanical way from Healing Surges. Both serve as a limitation to an adventuring day, based off recovering lost HP. Once either pools are exhausted, you have your remaining hitpoints, and it is typically time to take a break.

Again, I don't care that the Potion has the word "Healing" in it. It heals you, under certain conditions. A Potion of Flight doesn't mean you can out race a rocket jet, or enter the upper atmosphere. It has a function WITHIN LIMITS.

Coming off pretty obviously as a 4e-hater, BTW. Undermines your argument if you can't paint an unbiased picture to make a point.

[Tyndmyr]

Let me put it this way. Imagine in real life, today, someone invented a teleportation machine. He COULD sell it for an outrageous amount of money, or he could keep it for his own use and profit through using it. Or he could sell limited access to it and profit through the leasing. Either of the latter options would likely be far more valuable in the long run.

I, personally, would sell that in a heartbeat, because for a number of reasons, I view using a teleportation machine as equivalent to death. On the other hand, I like money, and have no qualms about others using it.

Even leaving such beliefs aside...many people routinely pick the "more money now" option over the good long term investment.

Adventurers are almost certainly going to be rich just based on their adventures. No need for selling magic items for wealth and power, they get those things as they actually do stuff, and chances are magic items are helping them accomplish that. Magic items shouldn't get to the point where they are prolific enough for a set market price to be established. The second you reach that point, you also reach the point where you can buy magic items with gold. And now you're back to 3.5 wealth by level. The only way to actually avoid a wealth by level scenario is to divorce the relationship between magic and gold, and making items valuable enough that players aren't looking for the nearest place to vend it.

There is no such thing as "rich enough".

[Seerow]

I, personally, would sell that in a heartbeat, because for a number of reasons, I view using a teleportation machine as equivalent to death. On the other hand, I like money, and have no qualms about others using it.

Even leaving such beliefs aside...many people routinely pick the "more money now" option over the good long term investment.

And the people who do are rarely adventurers. If you want to sell all your magic items and go live in the lap of luxury forever, you can do that. And I'm sure that an adventurer would be able to find a king willing to trade some very rich lands with a steady income for a magic item, if a PC decided he wanted to go out that way.

But as long as the PC is still going out and doing things, chances are his magic items are something he will still want to be using as a part of doing things.

[kyoryu]

This article gives some impression of the 5E mechanics (or at least, their prototype).

Call me cautiously optimistic.

I like this quote:

Described by Monte Cook as the core mechanic of the game, the players told the DM what they wanted to do and the DM told them whether they succeeded or not.

[Seerow]

Call me cautiously optimistic.

I like this quote:

It's magic tea party, the game!

[Talakeal]

I view using a teleportation machine as equivalent to death.

Out of curiosity, are you saying that based on the Star Trek transporter which disintegrates you and makes a copy? Because not all teleporters need to work on that principal, a far more likely teleporter would simply create a temporary wormhole between two points, which shouldn't result in death (unless you forget to adjust the rotational velocity between the two ends).

[kyoryu]

It's magic tea party, the game!

Huh?

I'm guessing your point is that you don't want the DM to have that much power, but rather to be a co-player bound by rules?

[erikun]

I'm failing to see how running out of surges in 4e is any different than running out of healing spells/potions/wands of previous editions. You've expended your resources, and didn't make it as far as you planned to. To me, complaining about running out of healing surges is like complaining when a monster reduces you to zero HPs. It's a limit on your character, and you need to be aware of it.

Well, HP is a silly limiting tool that gets taxed through encounters and sets a limit to what a party can do as well. Anyone who's had a party without a cleric (or other healer, and minus 3e's magic recovery belts) will probably note the same. As such, comparing the silliness of surges to the silliness of HP isn't really an improvement.

Second, there is a very big difference between zero surges and zero HP. A character with zero surges is still up and about, making choices and still capable of fighting. A character with zero HP is a meatstick, being carried around until the party can find a convenient resurrection point (if lucky).

Third, the question is not the decision a character makes when at zero HP, but just before. A character at low HP has a lot of options available to them: They could get healing, or consume a healing item, or retreat. A character with low (generally meaning one) surges really only has one option: retreat. Well, I suppose they could continue onward and basically guarantee their death, but you are still removing options for the player.

Finally, players have choices on how to deal with characters losing HP. They can pick up consumable items. They could pick up wands for the cleric. They could pick up methods of regeneration or automatic healing. They could even choose to play with more cleric than usual, granting more survivability. Players don't have any way to deal with losing healing surges, though. There is no method, in game or out, to produce more surges for an adventuring party.

[Seerow]

Huh?

I'm guessing your point is that you don't want the DM to have that much power, but rather to be a co-player bound by rules?

I don't mind a DM bending the rules when it's fitting. But calling that the central defining mechanic of the game is very discouraging.

If I wanted to play a game where I describe what I want to do, and ask the DM if it works, I wouldn't need a game at all. We can all sit around and free form RP doing exactly that. If I'm spending money on a game, I expect there to actually be a game, and not a bunch of text that boils down to "You can do what your DM says you can do".

[kyoryu]

I don't mind a DM bending the rules when it's fitting. But calling that the central defining mechanic of the game is very discouraging.

If I wanted to play a game where I describe what I want to do, and ask the DM if it works, I wouldn't need a game at all. We can all sit around and free form RP doing exactly that. If I'm spending money on a game, I expect there to actually be a game, and not a bunch of text that boils down to "You can do what your DM says you can do".

Also known as first and second edition. The good part is that it allowed for extraordinary freedom, without requiring rules for every little thing.

The bad part is if that you got a bad DM, it was a terrible, terrible game.