MitD V: MitD and the Templates of Doom (Please Read the First Post)

[Whiffet]

The comic as a whole is a parody of D&D, and yet we have seen spoofs of Dune, Final Fantasy and even Star Wars (roaches with lightsabers). The tricky part is that Rich never names anything copyrighted, but he can certainly think of appropriate ways to use them. And that's not speculation, it's a fact.

Therefore, the MitD can very well be something copyrighted, as long as Rich does not name it (so it must be easily recognizable on sight).

I've read your very useful first posts and your very useful links on fair use. (And my congratulations for your thorough work on this thread, by the way. ) But I think that the known modus operandi of the Giant himself should be a better indication.

Maybe the laws in his state are slightly different, or maybe his lawyer has advised him. It doesn't matter why he parodies copyrighted works even outside the scope of D&D - it matters that he does parody them. We actually know that.

The spoofs of Star Wars and such were passing jokes. MitD is an important aspect of the story. The two are very different. One is like Xykon and Redcloak trying to remember how the "Fear leads to anger" quote goes. The other is like Yoda being a member of the Order of the Stick throughout the entire comic.

[HeadlessMermaid]

The spoofs of Star Wars and such were passing jokes. MitD is an important aspect of the story. The two are very different. One is like Xykon and Redcloak trying to remember how the "Fear leads to anger" quote goes. The other is like Yoda being a member of the Order of the Stick throughout the entire comic.

However, if Yoda is in the dark under an umbrella throughout the entire comic and no one knows it's him, and twelve years later, at the final strip, he pops his head out just before the words "THE END", then your guess is as good as mine if that counts as a "passing joke" or not.

Just to be clear, I don't actually believe that this or that copyrighted creature fits the bill. I just think that that the copyright argument isn't so spectacularly solid as it appears.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Sorry to bring it up if it's old terriotory, but why is the dread linnorm considered a forerunner over the corpse tearer? Both the arcane and divine spell lists grant access to create undead so that isn't a merit in favor of either option. The corpse tearer isn't also immune to mind-affecting, is almost as strong and charismatic, and starts 1 size smaller with only one head. Really the corpse tearer seems a better fit all around then the dread linnorm. Also regarding it's magic use, a common theme in fiction is that characters who have innate magic they haven't learned to control are subject to random spells going off based on what's going on around them. Could the abilities the MitD shown be the result of it's uncontrolled divine magic, earthquake, control weather, miracle, etc?

Because the corpse tearer was never actually proposed. The poster that brought both forward voluntarily discarded the corpse tearer since he can cast animate dead, which in his opinion (and mine, not that mine matters in this case) disqualifies him. Technically he would belong in the forerunners like the linnorm, but also technically does not belong in the lists at all, since it's not "proposed" if the person that brings it forward asks for it to not be considered. So I split the difference, and only added it to the general list. The linnorm and the other massive creatures in the forerunners are likely going to be dropped in an update anyway. I didn't do it this time around because starting a new thread is a headache without adding major remodeling to the mix.

The comic as a whole is a parody of D&D, and yet we have seen spoofs of Dune, Final Fantasy and even Star Wars (roaches with lightsabers). The tricky part is that Rich never names anything copyrighted, but he can certainly think of appropriate ways to use them. And that's not speculation, it's a fact.

Therefore, the MitD can very well be something copyrighted, as long as Rich does not name it (so it must be easily recognizable on sight).

I've read your very useful first posts and your very useful links on fair use. (And my congratulations for your thorough work on this thread, by the way. ) But I think that the known modus operandi of the Giant himself should be a better indication.

Just because you don't name something doesn't mean that you are free to use someone else's copyright. It is not suddenly "fair use" if you don't mention that the weird mouse with the big ears' name is "Mickey Mouse". As to the rest of your "argument": everything that is not D&D is one-off jokes, which MitD clearly is not.

You, and everyone else trying to argue that MitD might be IP of a company other than Wizard of the Coast would do well to read everything I have said thus far, and everything in the wikipedia before posting again.

Maybe the laws in his state are slightly different, or maybe his lawyer has advised him, or maybe the Wikipedia entry is outdated, or maybe he just risks it. I don't know and I won't try to guess. But it doesn't matter why he parodies copyrighted works even outside the scope of D&D - it matters that he does parody them. We actually know that for a fact.

Edit: One off joke <> permanent character. And all the other maybes are just too absurd to even contemplate. If you really think any of them are true, present evidence. Like these "special laws" of Rich's state.

Edit:

However, if Yoda is in the dark under an umbrella throughout the entire comic and no one knows it's him, and twelve years later, at the final strip, he pops his head out just before the words "THE END", then your guess is as good as mine if that counts as a "passing joke" or not.

Oh for Thor's sake. I have already explained why this is wrong. Go back and read my posts.

Grey Wolf

[Hardcore]

Hm, assuming MitD actually been to the Astral plane, what does it have for effect on the discusion on his abilities explaining the escape scene?
Getting there, if he was there at all:), require plane shift, right?*
And planeshift is not what you easily would use to telepork someone from the tower to the Azurite fleet, right?

*Rich know about our thread so MitDs comment in the latest strip was clearly written for us. After all, RB could have chosen to have the monster be silent, or saying something else.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Hm, assuming MitD actually been to the Astral plane, what does it have for effect on the discusion on his abilities explaining the escape scene?
Getting there, if he was there at all:), require plane shift, right?*
And planeshift is not what you easily would use to telepork someone from the tower to the Azurite fleet, right?

The information about teleporting you want is already in section 1b - the escape. At this point we don't know if MitD has even been to to the astral plane, and if he was, when and by whose means. Maybe future strips will change that, but at this point we have almost nothing to go on with.

*Rich know about our thread so MitDs comment in the latest strip was clearly written for us. After all, RB could have chosen to have the monster be silent, or saying something else.

I disagree. MitD has said cloudcuckoolander-ish asides before. What's surprising is not that MitD said something unexpected, silly and off-the-wall, is that Xykon didn't simply ignore him - although they know that it is sometimes the only way to shut him up.

Grey Wolf

[Gift Jeraff]

I seem to recall someone saying that the MitD devouring Redcloak might indicate something about his size, but the recent wight incident shows that's not a good indication of size (since a single Medium wight can apparently devour 4 other Medium creatures).

[Irish Musician]

I seem to recall someone saying that the MitD devouring Redcloak might indicate something about his size, but the recent wight incident shows that's not a good indication of size (since a single Medium wight can apparently devour 4 other Medium creatures).

I think it also depends on the creature. Wights could definitely just sit there and devour any amount of creatures I would think.

[Gift Jeraff]

I think it also depends on the creature. Wights could definitely just sit there and devour any amount of creatures I would think.

If that were the case, the Giant could have handwaved it away as such, but he didn't. (In response to this.)

At least, I read that as a "who cares?" type of explanation, which might also be the case for the MitD.

[Crusher]

I thought the problem with the Corpse Tearer was that it was a unique, like the Tarresque.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I thought the problem with the Corpse Tearer was that it was a unique, like the Tarresque.

If that is true, it is the first time it has been mentioned.

GW

[Irish Musician]

If that were the case, the Giant could have handwaved it away as such, but he didn't. (In response to this.)

At least, I read that as a "who cares?" type of explanation, which might also be the case for the MitD.

It might be, but the MitD isn't exactly some random wights that chomp on each other. I would think Rich would be a little more particular with the evidence for the MitD.

[The MunchKING]

As such, whatever creature is hidden in the shadows is what it is before and after the reveal. If it is a Black Mage from final fantasy, Square Enix will have very solid ground on which to sue Rich. Rich, being aware of this, will not have used the copyrighted material from any company with more lawyers than sense.

To be fair Black Mages (as the Final Fantasy versions) Have been used in a WHOLE LOT of popular webcomics anyway. 8-bit theatre merely being the most obvious one. SO if someone has permitted thier IP to be major charecters in other webcomics, I don't know why Rich would be an exception.

(That said I REALLY don't beleave it's a Black Mage, but it's not like people haven't used him before).

[Crusher]

Huh. That conversation was ages ago so maybe I'm not remembering it very well. I just did a quick search for its actual description and found a couple, one of which is http://www.lomion.de/cmm/draglcot.php which describes it as unique but also http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/m...=Corpse_Tearer which doesn't particularly describe it as Unique.

Its possible I Googled it a while ago, saw the Unique tag, and sort of figured that was an issue without anyone who wasn't in my head actually saying anything about it.

[The MunchKING]

Yes, the teddy bear is a joke opinion, especially since Teddy's Healing Bears are not exactly common. I'm just curious who wrote that quote... The guy who invented the bears, or Rich himself, giving us a clue to hash over.
While teddy bears can of course defend against anyone and anything, rare is the teddy bear as big as the MitD. I've seen bigger mind you, but they are usually in teddy bear museums. But teddy bears are definitely Public Domain, so Rich is free to use them.

They had Doll Golems in AD&D, they weren't THAT great...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

To be fair Black Mages (as the Final Fantasy versions) Have been used in a WHOLE LOT of popular webcomics anyway. 8-bit theatre merely being the most obvious one. SO if someone has permitted thier IP to be major charecters in other webcomics, I don't know why Rich would be an exception.

It's not an exception. Those comics are taking advantage of the same fair use rule that Rich is using, except they are parodying Final Fantasy, as opposed to D&D. Since MitD is not parodying Final Fantasy, he can't be a Final Fantasy character.

Grey Wolf

[Steven]

Just a question for GW: I was reading through the comic archives for giggles and when I got to the escape scene I paid closer attention having just finished reading two of these threads.

You've asserted on a few occasions that Xykon thinks that V was responsible for the escape. I'm not sure that the dialogue actually indicates that: Xykon says first off "Who just stole my kills?" and then in the next comic says "YOUR prisoner ... and then popped out of here without a trace."
He doesn't attribute it to V at all.

I'm just wondering if I've missed a later discussion of it or if you're drawing a conclusion from the above mentioned dialogue?
It probably doesn't matter one way or the other but I just like to know if I'm missing obvious things.

Regards,

Steven.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Just a question for GW: I was reading through the comic archives for giggles and when I got to the escape scene I paid closer attention having just finished reading two of these threads.

You've asserted on a few occasions that Xykon thinks that V was responsible for the escape. I'm not sure that the dialogue actually indicates that: Xykon says first off "Who just stole my kills?" and then in the next comic says "YOUR prisoner ... and then popped out of here without a trace."
He doesn't attribute it to V at all.

I'm just wondering if I've missed a later discussion of it or if you're drawing a conclusion from the above mentioned dialogue?
It probably doesn't matter one way or the other but I just like to know if I'm missing obvious things.

Regards,

Steven.

No, I don't say that. All I say is that if Xykon blames someone for the escape, a logical person to blame would be the arcane caster with epic teleportation abilities. But Xykon doesn't really care who caused the escape. Beyond his initial rage, all of his concentration is centered on recovering the phylactery, not on what happened to the prisoner he doesn't much care about and the wizard he beat handily.

The only question that is important for this thread is if he might suspect MitD, and there is no evidence that he does. Once he calmed down he could have potentially thought over the scene again (very un-Xykon like, but could happen), and the question is if MitD could at that point be blamed. The evidence is negative. Xykon believes MitD was sleeping through the whole thing and that he never does anything, and there are more plausible scenarios for the escape that do not involve MitD from Xykon's PoV and knowledge.

In any case, the entity that "stole [his] kills" is never mentioned by Xykon again, and I honestly believe he has admitted he isn't likely to find it and has moved on, channeling that rage into browbeating RC into recovering the phylactery and moving on with the plan.

Grey Wolf

[Irish Musician]

Well said GW. Steven, Xykon doesn't think MitD is worth anything aside from being able to pop out of the darkness at the right moment and eat the good guys. That is the only thing he cares about. Anything else the MitD might be able to do is totally lost on Xykon because Xykon doesn't think MitD has anything else useful to his name, magic or otherwise. So, in that scene, it wouldn't even occur to Xykon that MitD created their escape. And even if it did, he would dismiss it and move on.

[Steven]

That all makes sense. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything obvious.

Cheers.

[Irish Musician]

That all makes sense. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything obvious.

Cheers.

No prob, I do it all the time and GW usually sets me straight!

[EternalRuin]

So, I'm sure this has been discussed already, but...

Are there any scenes other than the escape scene in which the MitD's eyes glow? (And not just the normal yellow circles; they look different right when he says escape) Or are there any other characters/monsters in the comic who's eyes glow when using spells/spell-like effects? Because maybe there exists some monster that has eyes that light up when it cast spells or something

edit: grammar

[lothos]

Because the corpse tearer was never actually proposed. The poster that brought both forward voluntarily discarded the corpse tearer since he can cast animate dead, which in his opinion (and mine, not that mine matters in this case) disqualifies him. Technically he would belong in the forerunners like the linnorm, but also technically does not belong in the lists at all, since it's not "proposed" if the person that brings it forward asks for it to not be considered. So I split the difference, and only added it to the general list. The linnorm and the other massive creatures in the forerunners are likely going to be dropped in an update anyway. I didn't do it this time around because starting a new thread is a headache without adding major remodeling to the mix.
[snip]

Hi, I haven't posted much for a while, about 40 pages or so, but I was the original proposer of the Dread Linnorm back in the first thread about MitD.

I acknowledge there are a couple of big problems with the Dread Linnorm... having 2 heads being a significant one, the size and also immunity to enchantment spells. The thing that really made me look at it closely was it's special ability to hurl creatures in combat, which seemed to fit so well with what happens to Miko and Windstriker back at the tower. The other thing is that it can have access to 9th level Sorcerer spells, including potentially Wish.

So why not a Corpse Tearer ? Well, instead of having Sorcerer abilities, it has cleric abilities, including potentially the ability to cast Miracle. As Grey Wolf said, that could mean MitD could potentially animate dead.... but that wasn't the biggest reason I discarded it.

Cleric casting requires a high wisdom, 19 wisdom to cast Miracle. Having 19 wisdom just doesn't fit MitD at all in my opinion. However 19 Charisma could quite easily fit in my mind. 19 Intelligence is also a reasonable fit... but not 19 Wisdom.

Does anyone think MitD is wise ? Intelligent maybe, charming and charismatic perhaps, but wiser than almost any humanoid alive ? That doesn't sound right to me.

"Escape" is clearly some kind of magical or psionic ability. It could be a spell like ability, or a spell, a psionic power, or maybe something else if MitD isn't a D&D monster. If it's a spell, it's got to be from Wisdom based casting (eg. Cleric), Charisma Based Casting (e.g. Sorcerer) or Intelligence Based Casting (e.g. Wizard).

The big problem with both Intelligence Based casting and also Wisdom based casting is that so far as I know, both seem to require preparation of spells. All the Charisma based casting I know of is spontaneous...

Now thinking about Escape, does it seem likely that MitD prepared the spell and then somehow forgot he prepared it ? This just seems impossible to me. That's the biggest reason why I discarded any creature that could provide the "Escape" power with Cleric, Wizard, Druid.... etc. spell casting, anything that prepares spells. With Cleric (or Druid) as I said, you have the added problem that 19 Wisdom just doesn't seem to fit his naive personality.

The best fit for an ability to power "Escape" is without doubt in my mind a Spell Like Ability. So Wish as a Spell like ability would be the best thing to look for..

Psionics are something I don't know much about in 3rd or 3.5 edition D&D. I never actually played 3rd edition, only "Basic" and 1st Edition AD&D. I'm not really qualified to comment on them and I've never been able to access any of the rulebooks about it to read up on it.

So if it's not a spell like ability and if I exclude Psionics (because I don't know enough about the abilities), the only thing left in my mind is Sorcerer, Favoured Soul or Bardic casting.

I scoured MM1 to MM5 looking for creatures with Wish as a Spell Like Ability, or with the ability to cast 9th level Sorcerer spells. I couldn't find a single creature with the ability to case 9th level Favoured Soul spells by the way... and Bardic Spellcasting doesn't seem to have a power that could reasonably be "Escape"

Anyway, that was my methodology.... I was just trying to get some kind of "filter" to identify reasonable candidates and the Dread Linnorm's throwing special ability seemed interesting... it also fits the circus scene, but I'll be the first to admit it's not a perfect fit.

Cheers.

[Crimsonmantle]

(sure it's possible with the right backstory, but it's also possible the MitD is an ant with the right backstory).

This is now officially my pet theory on the MitD's species.

[rweird]

Cleric casting requires a high wisdom, 19 wisdom to cast Miracle. Having 19 wisdom just doesn't fit MitD at all in my opinion. However 19 Charisma could quite easily fit in my mind. 19 Intelligence is also a reasonable fit... but not 19 Wisdom.

See Trumpet Archon P. 18-19, Wis 16, has 7th level spell prepared. I don't think anything with clerical casting would need Wis 19 to cast clerical miracle unless it gets the casting by virtue of class levels.

[Irish Musician]

A wild thought appeared while reading lothos' post. So the MitD talks, unlike all the others of his species. I have a feeling that this has been gone over before, but what else does he do/what other qualities about him are also unlike his species. Can that fact that he can talk be the only thing about him that is unlike his species, or does he have other powers, strengths, or weaknesses (i.e. the mind control vulnerability) that his species doesn't normally have.

Example, not for use of what MitD, but to help illustrate my point: He is a product of a diety of some sort, son or something of the like, but something happened and now he can be mind controlled. Kind of like the Disney version of Hercules (I know Disney is a bad example of actual Mythology, but stay with me here). He was once a god, the little evil goons turned him mostly mortal...in the D&D world that might mean he is now susceptible to mind control.

After this lengthy explanation my point is: Maybe talking isn't the only thing MitD can or can't do that his species normally doesn't have the know-how for, that is all really. And ripping to shreds in 3....2....1.....

[WhamBamSam]

After this lengthy explanation my point is: Maybe talking isn't the only thing MitD can or can't do that his species normally doesn't have the know-how for, that is all really. And ripping to shreds in 3....2....1.....

Talking was the only thing that was lampshaded though, and it becomes pretty much impossible to figure out what he is if any given piece of evidence can potentially be false without any indication. It also pushes the creature much closer to being something that Rich created. If Xykon's spell goes off and Redcloak, while being eaten, screams with his last breath that mind affecting spells shouldn't have worked, that would open up semi-divine creatures, but as of now we have to assume that the ability to speak is the only deviation from the norm, or we can't really come to any conclusion at all.

[Lord Bingo]

... . And ripping to shreds in 3....2....1.....

You are proposing that the MitD might have more abilities that are not "normal" for his race. This would only make it harder to figure out and it would probably violate the "can be guessed" clause.

If we start making concessions of this kind: "the escape ability is something Rich added to the creature, so it should not be taken into account when we try and find a creature that match the evidence", whose to say which of the abilities Rich added and which are part of the base creature?

Unless Rich lampshades an ability, like he did with the MitD's ability to speak, there is no reason to assume that any ability thus far manifested by the monster is not inherent to his species.

-edit-
Dammit. A ninja beat me to it...

[Irish Musician]

Yeah that makes sense. I like having people who know this stuff to bounce my ideas off of, because I have weird ideas sometimes.

-edit-Dammit. A ninja beat me to it...

Heh, it happens. Just surprised it wasn't GW that time

[Arbitrarious]

Hi, I haven't posted much for a while, about 40 pages or so, but I was the original proposer of the Dread Linnorm back in the first thread about MitD.

Well thought out discussion of points

Cheers.

The reason for my quandary is thus. All Linnorms can fling enemies, so that is in favor of both. Both arcane and divine casters can raise undead which is against both. That being said, anything with wish as an SLA could also raise undead. That means we are either looking for a creature that can explain what it has done with very precise abilities outside of the wildcard powers like wish and company, or we must discard RC's comment as referencing the MitD demonstrated abilities and not it's potential abilities.

I certainly agree the sorcerer's inborn magic makes more sense flavor wise for not knowing it's abilities, it's never been clearly explained how a creature with inborn prepared caster abilities comes into it's power. Do they experience the wild flares of magic as they cast unformed spells to fill desires until they learn to control their magic like the fluff for sorcerers' or do they simply have no power until they sit down and master it?

On the subject of mental ability scores. None of them have been demonstrated to be very high. It's flashes of brilliance are better explained by knowledge checks then general intelligence since it seems generally slow on the uptake and forgetful. It seems nice, but not the most compelling companion you ever met. It certainly isn't full of insight. But what part of this represents low scores versus the mindset of a child. Linnorms are dragons and most are ancient. 30 years to them might be the mental equivalent to a 6 year old. It's hard to say at that point. Aside from a couple specific knowledges the only thing we've seen to indicate it's mental prowess is it learned Go quickly. I know many people think games like that are solely int, but awareness of pieces on the board are also important. It's easy to make a costly mistake by overlooking an enemy piece. Then again wis has always been poorly defined in my opinion.

Honestly I think we need to look at psionic creatures, but there aren't many of them powerful enough to fill all the criteria so far.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Both arcane and divine casters can raise undead which is against both.

No, you are wrong. While it is true that both arcane and divine casters could have that spell, the important thing here is that every divine caster has access to the spell, unless they worship a God opposed to the idea, while arcane casters might have access to the spell, but equally likely might not. If MitD is an arcane caster, it can conceivably not have access to create undead but still have access to wish. But if he were a divine caster, there is no scenario where he wouldn't have access to both, with the only exception of "worshipper of an undead-hating divinity" which begs the question of what he is doing hanging around an epic Lich, and why his God hasn't got him out of there.

No, in the scale of things, an arcane caster is plausible ("his spell book simply doesn't have the create undead family of spells") while a divine one is harder to fit in. The problem with an arcane caster is not that RC knew he couldn't help create undead, it is that we have never seen him prepare spells or show any knowledge of magic (inc. ignorance of teleportation).

Grey Wolf