Starcraft 2: 8 Medivac drop

[Silverraptor]

Another game of playing silver league. Keep in mind that I'm playing as random, and I recognize my play is really bumpy compared to my gold play. But mainly I just need to retrain my fingers on where the buttons are.

My zerg skills seem to be coming back faster. I almost won a PvZ, but I lost when I realized I had only 6 gateways and was floating 3k minerals. :P

[Stille_Nacht]

High diamond->
Swarmhosts i think are a nice complement to the zerg. They seem like they are very effective at delaying drops, and i see potential for some cool ambush or hidden flank tactics if you place them right. i don't see them as a replacement for broodlords.
While they attack in a similar manner, their function is completely different, simply by virtue that broodlords are air, and do more damage by virtue of a much higher relative attack speed, and can effectively create a wall after attacking for a second (well they should have higher damage after the patches). The positioning and pushing power is completely different.

I'd say that swarmhost all in (and that's what it is if they are still on two base in PvZ) is very effective, but if scouted it can easily be hardcountered by phoenix or simply by 4gating (hits before host pops out). Unsure what other hard-counters there are, don't have a beta so cant test ><.
Maybe stargate will become standard again to mitigate this possibility tho (which is something i really like, requires high apm n shet 8D)

also, warhound was removed <3

[Silverraptor]

also, warhound was removed <3

Nope, they're still there. It just can't attack ground.

In other news, when fast expanding, don't prevent your opponent from the ability to also fast expand. They just might say screw expanding and go all in.

[Acanous]

Made it back to Platinum, 7th in my division ATM :D
Oddly, my last 3 games have been against Silver, Gold, Plat, in that order.

I can assume the other Gold was high rank, and that the plat was low rank, but what sins did that poor Silver commit to warrant the matchmaker set me upon him?

[Thiyr]

So. Beta patch notes are interesting, even for those of us who aren't beta-ing.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=368782

Of note: Warhound is out of the beta entirely for the moment. Carriers are back. Tempests are changed. Swarm hosts are nerfed slightly.

Discuss?

[Kyeudo]

Immortal
•Immortal Hardened Shield will now reduce the warhound’s Haywire Missile damage.

Warhound
•This unit has been removed from the game.

Wat.

[LaughingGnoll]

So. Beta patch notes are interesting, even for those of us who aren't beta-ing.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=368782

Of note: Warhound is out of the beta entirely for the moment. Carriers are back. Tempests are changed. Swarm hosts are nerfed slightly.

Discuss?

Spoilered by Race to save space.


Zerg

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I fell like the Swarm Host nerf isn't THAT bad. Sure, it's one less range, but I feel like Locusts are supposed to be behind the Zerglings, and in front of Roaches and Hydras. Plus it will reduce overall damage we've seen in the beta so far, where 8-15 Swarm Hosts can destroy just about anything that isn't air, since they'll have to get closer to start attacking.

Terran

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I'm not TOO surprised that they removed the warhound. The design concept was something that would be great against Mechanical units, but it was too good all around. It had more health, did more damage, and was more mobile than the siege tank, which just made it good against just about everything. I thought they would nerf the damage, something like 10 (23 vs. Mechanical) or something like that, but I guess they are taking it back entirely.

Anyone else think they're trying too hard to make Reapers work? First they gave it Combat Drugs, now they're letting them see up cliffs. I suppose it would be cool if you could use Reapers to spot for low-ground Siege Tanks, and it would definitely help deciding whether or not you want to harass a certain area given on where the defences are.

The Hellion change feels ... weird. So if I've read the patch correctly, normal Wings of Liberty Hellions will be available when a factory is built, as usual. However, the Battle Hellion is a Factory + Tech Lab unit, and the ability to transform from one to the other is an upgrade. Meaning that you could build two factories, one with a reactor, one with a tech lab, and get both battle hellions AND normal hellions, which can't transform into each other.

IF the above assumptions are true, I think it will allow for people to be more specific if they want to spawn a Battle Hellion or a Normal Hellion, which is one of the weird questions I've heard tossed around. But I think that the upgrade may not ever be researched, from the replays I've seen so far, people either use Normal Hellions OR Battle Hellions. I haven't seen a lot of transforming go around, except for when the unit spawns. So it's an interesting change, I just wonder if that upgrade will ever be used.

The Widow Mine being reduced from the Armory requirement seems scary to me. Cloaked units which do lots of damage as soon as a Tech Lab Factory is built? Sound like a faster Banshee rush if you ask me. Though maybe I'm just overreacting.

Protoss

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Tempests and Carriers working together? I feel like this is a better approach to what the designers wanted when they announced mostly air units for Protoss. Both are powerful late-game units which will probably destroy anything that doesn't have ridiculous numbers against it (ie mass viking/corrupter). I'm kind of sad that they removed the absurd range on it though, it felt like using the insane range as well as the abilities on the Oracle could have made it a very good late-game harassing unit, but from what I've seen in casted games so far that wasn't happening.

The new Oracle ability sounds cool, but I don't think it'll be very useful. A 5 second duration won't protect against much, especially since most of the abilities that I think players would want to block, namely Fungal Growth, usually isn't cast several times in a row where a 5 second immunity will make Fungals vs. Protoss a lot harder. I suppose it depends on the range of the effect though. If it's the same/similar to Guardian Shield than it could work really nicely, but I feel like the Oracle's fragility is the main issue here. If Blizzard REALLY wants to see more Oracle play, they need to give it a health/shields buff like they did with the Warp Prism through the patching of Wings of Liberty. The Oracle is practically made of balsa wood, I think that's the real reason people aren't using it.

[Acanous]

Mhm. Widow Mines are going to be brutal when you can rax in a tech lab then plant a factory there. We're looking at 3 minute games, here.

[LaughingGnoll]

Immortal
•Immortal Hardened Shield will now reduce the warhound’s Haywire Missile damage.

Warhound
•This unit has been removed from the game.

Wat.

Yeah, the wording has everyone thrown off. Maybe they'll give the Haywire Missile to a different unit and then repurpose the Warhound?

This actually has a cool suggestion to switch the focus points of the Warhound and Thor. TL;DR = Thors get Haywire Missile, lose Strike Cannon abilities and AA, and Warhounds take over the AA role for Terran Mech, making Thors the heavy frontline hitters they're supposed to be, and making the Warhounds an AA support unit for Mech armies like the Thor is turning out to be now.

[Acanous]

would certainly make Terran Mech a little cheaper.

[Thiyr]

IIRC, they explicitly are patching (and writing patch notes) a lot faster due to it being a beta, in an attempt to get a wider base of knowledge of how things work out, so the quality of some things drop. Such as the immortal taking less damage from things that don't exist anymore.

As far as actual changes, figure I'll toss my thoughts in now. I didn't see a whole ton of swarm host (haven't been watching too much HotS stuff, mostly just basing my opinions on the numbers I'm seeing sofar and 1 or 2 games), but it seems reasonable.

Oracle's new spell makes me jump for joy, both because it makes the oracle not boring and it gives a way to deal with fungal.

Tempest change makes the unit kinda not suck. Considering that its DPS before this was less than a single stimmed marine to a single target, it was pretty damn useless even with that huge range. Now it has a chance to be useful, though I'm not sure if it'll be quite enough to make it worthwhile.

Woo carrier is back. Seeing as how it was rarely used before, I can only slightly see the metagame changing around the carrier unless some other change (coughbuildtimecough) happens.

Warhound, from what i hear, was nuts. I'd like to see it back in a less nutty fashion, but letting beta be tested while they overhaul it is a good idea imo.

I want to see reapers used more, and this may help

Not sure about battle hellions

And not sure about widow mines either.

So really, my opinions are limited to my main race. Which is sad and must be remedied!

[KuReshtin]

World Championship Series streamed live from Stockholm, Sweden right now.
Final day, with the Spanish brothers Lucifron and Vortix being in the final bracket along EGStephano, waiting for BabyKnight [Denmark] va Lowely [Belarus] to see who will join them.

Link here.

[Mutant Sheep]

We doing a meetup thingey? I dunno if we are but I could make it tonight/this afternoon. Mostly.

[Stille_Nacht]

imo widow mines arent so bad, they essentially only hit one unit, though it does peeve me that you can't micro against them at all from what i have seen :l.

i like removing the warhound. Simply put, warhounds were a high damage, high range, high hp mobile unit. wat. I just dont feel comfortable with the roles warhounds performed as essentially: super marauders in mech. And seeing as right now, we can only judge things by their roles, warhound rated quite poorly. It didn't feel "mech"-y. no careful positioning, not keen army awareness, just a-move :l.
unless they completely rework the unit, i'm glad it's gone.

if they buff the carrier it could become a very viable capital ship, like BC in megaultra late game. so i'm kinda excited about that, i guess. It could be a nice way to counter broods when the slug fest gets there.
just make interceptors free (or better yet, labelled as "neutral unit" by the AI), maybe reduce build time a smidge... something.

i like battle hellion transform being an upgrade you have to research, it was sort of irritating that suddenly a mobile weak harass unit can turn into a tanky unit :l.

like the oracle change. i don't know if this is racial bias, but i always felt like neuraling a mothership is not something that should be allowed to happen :l, just seems a little too extreme you know?

honestly, i don't like the design philosophy of the tempest at all...as of now, it's an extremely long range brood lord sniper.... why is this even a unit?. Either it can do its job with its damage in which case IMO it is kinda OP (taking out the zerg army's dps while sitting back and giggling?), or it can't really do its job and is a big 300/300 hunk of junk.
i just don't like it's non-flexibility on all fronts.
i guess it might be cool to see people expertly zone and control their tempests separately, but the unit design just seems off. Not quite as bad as giving super marauders to mech, but close


but enough negativity! i love love love swarmhosts! i wasnt sure about it when they came out, cus i thought they might be kinda weird, but after i see sheth utilize them for defense, slowing, zoning, and even offense, i like the unit a lot, even more than lurkers

[Kyeudo]

I just got cannon rushed, six gated, forgot zergling speed until the 24 minute mark, . . . and I won anyway.

[Thiyr]

I will say this. Pre patch I was tempted to move to Terran post hots, cause I wasn't really excited by the other races. Post, I'm satisfied with sticking toss. I don't see the tempest being really nuts, tbh, but not really busted either. It deals with BL nicely, but it doesn't really deal with many other huge threats. Its damage is laughable on non massive units (lower dps than a stimmed marine), so over committing to them is a huge risk, ESP when otherwise the tech path can be a risky choice vs ground. I can see it being useful without being an autowin at least.

Though now that I think about it, why do reapers see as little play as they do now in WoL? Just because they're not getting speed fast enough and get countered too easy?

[Kyeudo]

Its damage is laughable on non massive units (lower dps than a stimmed marine), so over committing to them is a huge risk, ESP when otherwise the tech path can be a risky choice vs ground. I can see it being useful without being an autowin at least.

Aren't Tempests splash damage, though? Siege Tanks actually have better single target dps when unsieged, but their splash and rediculous long range makes up for their immobility. Tempests might be something of the same mindset.

[Karoht]

@Tempest
Long Range, feels like it should be used for hit and run rather than a constant stream of damage. Kind of thing where you fire off a salvo from the Tempests and then follow it up with some Stalkers blinkinging into position.

@Swarm Hosts
Looks like it's in a good place.

@Warhound
I liked the look, I liked the missiles. I hope it comes back.

@Oracle
Caught a game where someone was making use of it. Looks keen.

@Reapers
I miss seeing Reapers. I really do. I want to see them used at the competative level, but I doubt that will happen.

[Silverraptor]

Aren't Tempests splash damage, though? Siege Tanks actually have better single target dps when unsieged, but their splash and rediculous long range makes up for their immobility. Tempests might be something of the same mindset.

No. Tempest are not splash damage. It was then that I questioned why we would build them.

[Othesemo]

No. Tempest are not splash damage. It was then that I questioned why we would build them.

Mineral line harassment? You'd be out of the range of any missile turrets and the like, I suppose. If you caught them out of position, you might be able to do some decent damage.

[Karoht]

No. Tempest are not splash damage. It was then that I questioned why we would build them.

Huh. Odd.
Do you have a source on that? I'm on a computer at work, can't go looking myself.

[Stille_Nacht]

When i think about tempests the first thing that pops into my head, always is:

They cost 300/300 + fleet beacon investment + starport investment.

This needs to weigh heavily on your mind when you talk about the tempest. It costs a tonne of money, and you essentially only get whatever small harass you can do with them before you "lose" the investment (as soon as a big fight happens). (vT)
Has anyone seen tempests really harass effectively? it is really easy to pick off observers, and in high level games, i have seen max 10 or so workers die to them.
Tiny hit and run attacks that do barely any damage? maybe pick off some marines? a single tank? totally not worth it.

tempests are a bad unit for anything besides sniping broods atm IMO (and even then, they aren't great). And there, i could see them being too good if you can make the armies dance around each other. (it is possible that skilled toss would essentially force ultras) (though damage is a bit too low this patch).

overall i just dont like the unit design. Long range, mobile capital ship... it's like the warhound- long range, mobile, tanky mech unit (except they gimped it early on instead of making it op)

edit: tempest splash was removed long ago (and seriously, slow capital ship that only counters mutas is even worse than what we currently have)

[Kyeudo]

I'd like to see the splash put back in. Then they can basically do the same thing as a Colossus, but with different considerations.

[Silverraptor]

Huh. Odd.
Do you have a source on that? I'm on a computer at work, can't go looking myself.

Yes, I was watching Day 9's stream on tempests and noted closely the healthbars of everything around it. A group of marines fell one by one, not looking like someone hit them with a fly swatter.

[Silverraptor]

Kyeudo, I just saw you're name in the day 9 chat!

[Kyeudo]

Yes, I'm there.

[Silverraptor]

Yes, I'm there.

Wow. That second game. He was Amazing!

[Kyeudo]

Wow. That second game. He was Amazing!

He's a grandmaster in 3 races. He'd better be amazing.

[Thiyr]

I'd like to see the splash put back in. Then they can basically do the same thing as a Colossus, but with different considerations.

I don't know if I'd like straight splash damage, but some kind of multi-unit damage would be nice. Either a bounce, like mutas, or if we're feeling really fancy a line of damage like hellions. The last one interests me the most just because it makes its large range -interesting-, even if it has a low damage, by making getting closer something you almost -want- to do if you're trying to get more damage out of it.

[Spuddles]

Yeah, the wording has everyone thrown off. Maybe they'll give the Haywire Missile to a different unit and then repurpose the Warhound?

This actually has a cool suggestion to switch the focus points of the Warhound and Thor. TL;DR = Thors get Haywire Missile, lose Strike Cannon abilities and AA, and Warhounds take over the AA role for Terran Mech, making Thors the heavy frontline hitters they're supposed to be, and making the Warhounds an AA support unit for Mech armies like the Thor is turning out to be now.

Goliath online.