Starcraft 2: 8 Medivac drop

[BobVosh]

Session is tomorrow.

[Spuddles]

Watched a little more HotS play. It's almost painful to watch the games since the metagame is still up in the air. You can really tell how hard zerg macro mechanics are to get just right. Like terran or protoss you keep adding factory/gateway and expanding, but with zerg you over drone and you die. Zerg is much more timing based than other races, or at least times differently. like I just watched liquidsheth get cleaned up by some terran I've never heard of.

The latest version of the widow mine is really cool. It is great at controlling space, which makes mech easier to play with. I think it discourages deathballing, at least from what I have seen so far- pvt looks almost brood war-esque.

The tempest is almost the new broodlord.

It's interesting to see how bad everyone is at getting detection- widow mines and swarm hosts have so far been hilariously brutal because zerg and protoss just don't want to invest in multiple observers.

I suspect swarm host is the new infestor or broodlord or something. Endless waves of free units seems extremely exploitable and I am surprised not to see more effective use of them. But then, I think zerg players have the hardest time adapting to changes. Or at least it seems that way. Infestors in WoL used to be so good, but they sat virtually unused for like a year! Meanwhile, you see terran players show off the total badassery of virtually every unit everytime the metagame changes. BFH took a little while to find, though, and I am surprised snipe vs. infestor isn't used. Snipe buff vs. psionic makes ghosts 2shot infestor. Hydras are starting to finally show up in WoL, now. Ultras took like a year and a half to figure out.

[LaughingGnoll]

It's interesting to see how bad everyone is at getting detection- widow mines and swarm hosts have so far been hilariously brutal because zerg and protoss just don't want to invest in multiple observers.

I suspect swarm host is the new infestor or broodlord or something. Endless waves of free units seems extremely exploitable and I am surprised not to see more effective use of them. But then, I think zerg players have the hardest time adapting to changes. Or at least it seems that way. Infestors in WoL used to be so good, but they sat virtually unused for like a year! Meanwhile, you see terran players show off the total badassery of virtually every unit everytime the metagame changes. BFH took a little while to find, though, and I am surprised snipe vs. infestor isn't used. Snipe buff vs. psionic makes ghosts 2shot infestor. Hydras are starting to finally show up in WoL, now. Ultras took like a year and a half to figure out.

Usually the detection thing is rare because it's fairly rare (depending on what league your in, of course) that things with cloak actually make regular appearances in "non-cheesy serious play". I just got to Gold as Random on the European Servers before the server lock, and it was pretty easy to get an easy Protoss win from time to time by going a simple DT rush.

I would say that the reason Zerg doesn't adapt to tech well is because of the way the tech-tree works. Terran can generally instantly show off new things because all the new units fall into the baracks, factory, starport lines pretty easily, the only deciding factor may be which add-ons you decide to use, which you can always switch around later. But for Zerg you have to decide whether or not you're going to build a whole separate building which may or not then fit into your build depending on your current larva supply, unit composition, and other economic factors. Before most patches, Zergs have a build where they are spending all the larvae they can, so then we have to adjust our whole play style so we can allocate larvae differently.

I don't think the swarm host will be as devastating as the Brood Lord or Infestor. Even though it's waves of free units, the units are weak enough to not be a problem unless you have a LOT of swarm-hosts, which isn't viable because it cuts out of your offensive army supply by adding a defensive unit. Plus their total immobility while they summon Locusts makes it difficult to navigate them well, we haven't had a unit like that since the Lurker in Brood Wars, which we once again adapted to not having in WoL.

I'm pretty skeptic about the ultralisks, now that they lost burrow charge. Now they're going to return to the problems that they have in WoL, where they are stuck behing the Zerglings at best, and at the worst behind your ranged attacking units. I can see where Burrow Charge could have in OP, but I think the ultralisk as a unit itself is bound to see something change again. I think it'd satisfy most Zergs enough if Blizzard increased the Push Priority on the Ultralisks enough that they would push Zerglings out of the way without being able to move other units around. Whether this is do-able in HoTS is kind of debatable, but I think it would fit the lore well and improve the usability of ultras which sharply declined since BW.

[BobVosh]

I suspect swarm host is the new infestor or broodlord or something. Endless waves of free units seems extremely exploitable and I am surprised not to see more effective use of them.

If they could still shoot up, I know they would be a lot more plentiful. I just hate a less maneuverable brood lord in effect.

BFH took a little while to find, though, and I am surprised snipe vs. infestor isn't used. Snipe buff vs. psionic makes ghosts 2shot infestor. Hydras are starting to finally show up in WoL, now. Ultras took like a year and a half to figure out.

EMP is basically good enough vs infestors. Hydras showed up in WoL a few times, but it is so weak it is hard to use. Ultras took a ton of nerfs/buffs to get to the point they are.

[Karoht]

Infestors are important because of Fungal Growth, not the Infested Marines.
At high level play (MLG and the like) you see Infested Marines, mostly on a final base push, and usually as a 'ha ha I'm winning' sort of gesture. Occasionally you see them as harass, but not likely.

[Mutant Sheep]

Hots is getting close, and I actually tried out some of the new units yesterday. Was a few patches ago, but I think that Toss air is silly and ground zerg abusign swarm hosts is good. Works great with fungal. Too easy to kill though. Massing them leves you hilariously open. And they arent the best fighters. Viper is AMAZZZZING though. (Oh. Screw widow mines.)

[Acanous]

Oh yes. Zerg Vipers are going to see a LOT of play. Maybe not en mass, but enough that you'll be surprised if you don't see any in a long match.

[Spuddles]

Infestors are important because of Fungal Growth, not the Infested Marines.
At high level play (MLG and the like) you see Infested Marines, mostly on a final base push, and usually as a 'ha ha I'm winning' sort of gesture. Occasionally you see them as harass, but not likely.

Infested marines also make great AA, create a free base razing army, harass, eggs block pathing, and used to be a massive source of DPS for a roach army.

While yes, fungal is usually why you get infestors, having free units that got upgrades made them that much more powerful.

Usually the detection thing is rare because it's fairly rare (depending on what league your in, of course) that things with cloak actually make regular appearances in "non-cheesy serious play". I just got to Gold as Random on the European Servers before the server lock, and it was pretty easy to get an easy Protoss win from time to time by going a simple DT rush.

I would say that the reason Zerg doesn't adapt to tech well is because of the way the tech-tree works. Terran can generally instantly show off new things because all the new units fall into the baracks, factory, starport lines pretty easily, the only deciding factor may be which add-ons you decide to use, which you can always switch around later. But for Zerg you have to decide whether or not you're going to build a whole separate building which may or not then fit into your build depending on your current larva supply, unit composition, and other economic factors. Before most patches, Zergs have a build where they are spending all the larvae they can, so then we have to adjust our whole play style so we can allocate larvae differently.

I don't think the swarm host will be as devastating as the Brood Lord or Infestor. Even though it's waves of free units, the units are weak enough to not be a problem unless you have a LOT of swarm-hosts, which isn't viable because it cuts out of your offensive army supply by adding a defensive unit. Plus their total immobility while they summon Locusts makes it difficult to navigate them well, we haven't had a unit like that since the Lurker in Brood Wars, which we once again adapted to not having in WoL.

I'm pretty skeptic about the ultralisks, now that they lost burrow charge. Now they're going to return to the problems that they have in WoL, where they are stuck behing the Zerglings at best, and at the worst behind your ranged attacking units. I can see where Burrow Charge could have in OP, but I think the ultralisk as a unit itself is bound to see something change again. I think it'd satisfy most Zergs enough if Blizzard increased the Push Priority on the Ultralisks enough that they would push Zerglings out of the way without being able to move other units around. Whether this is do-able in HoTS is kind of debatable, but I think it would fit the lore well and improve the usability of ultras which sharply declined since BW.

I would really like to see ultras path over lings. Even a simple speed upgrade like in BW so they go as fast as lings. Early in WoL, sheth admitted he a-moved into a base with ling/ultra because he was used to them going the same speed. Instead his ultras arrived late and got wiped out.

Gold random player here, but from what I've watched, your analysis seems accurate.

There's a lot more cloaked space controlling units in HotS, which leads to just painful losses vs widow mines.

If they could still shoot up, I know they would be a lot more plentiful. I just hate a less maneuverable brood lord in effect.

EMP is basically good enough vs infestors. Hydras showed up in WoL a few times, but it is so weak it is hard to use. Ultras took a ton of nerfs/buffs to get to the point they are.

From what I have heard from the terran QQ patrol, infestors don't cluster tightly enough for their EMPs to be "efficient".

[Karoht]

From what I have heard from the terran QQ patrol, infestors don't cluster tightly enough for their EMPs to be "efficient".

...
...boo hoo?

Terran QQ Patrol. I lol'd.

[Acanous]

Like Terran need a better counter to infestors. Terran Mech AND terran Air don't even care that you go infestor unless your micro is godly. Only thing that really has problems with an infestor-heavy field is 3m, or poorly micro'd air.

Edit: Is anyone else having problems with Battlenet's Public Test and/or Beta servers? I have the client downloaded, but can't seem to connect.

No, not "Can't log in", can't connect at all.

[DarkMemnarch]

Hey i visited the Bnet forums and found a really good idea for zerg

here is the link:

What do you guys think of it?

[Kyeudo]

Hey i visited the Bnet forums and found a really good idea for zerg

here is the link:

What do you guys think of it?

I want the infestor and those changes. Swarm hosts as anti-air and lurkers as anti-ground would be pretty cool.

[DarkMemnarch]

Hey everyone, I just wanted to inform you guys that Lykos created a GITP group on sc2. We all should all join it.

Just search GITP on the group finder button which is located to the left of the Menu on the new UI. When you find it just hit the "join group" button in the chat.

This is going to make communicating and organizing things and stuff a whole lot easier.

[Silverraptor]

Hey everyone, I just wanted to inform you guys that Lykos created a GITP group on sc2. We all should all join it.

Just search GITP on the group finder button which is located to the left of the Menu on the new UI. When you find it just hit the "join group" button in the chat.

This is going to make communicating and organizing things and stuff a whole lot easier.

Awesome. Will this cross over with Hots?

[Mutant Sheep]

I may or may not come back to play, my PC lost its OS and we're reinstalling windows. And my dad, despite being a tech from the 90's, is having trouble. Just enough that it isn't funny.

[Karoht]

Starcraft Universe is pretty awesome.
Currently the prologue is released, and it is excellent.
I'm mostly fond of the Firebat, and I haven't played any of the Protoss classes yet. Really solid skill shot that is fun to use, and a jetpack.
Medic is not at all what I expected, in a good way.
Ghost is bloody hard to play. Snipe has a very finicky range, and it is hard to maintain that range unless you are stealthed. Even then, tricky.
Marine is dirt simple to play. When bad guys are at range, grenades between shots. When bad guys are close up, spider mines between shots. When bad guys are far away but you expect them to get close very soon, Grenade first, then spider mine every chance you get.
The last boss of the prologue I spammed spider mines while waiting for him to show up, he was very not fond of having 12+ mines explode on him when he rushed me.

[DarkMemnarch]

Awesome. Will this cross over with Hots?

Yes I believe it will.

[Spuddles]

I have long held that terran is most powerful race at pro level, at least until the end of WoL. Data has supported my assertion amongst global metal players, masters and above, and code S. It's why so many post-beta patches have been aimed at terran. I've also wondered why terran in HotS beta looks ridiculously OP.

And I now know why: David Kim, lead balance guy, says Terran is his worst race:
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comment...id_kim/c8qwr2k

Whole AMA is worth a read, but my goodness do I feel vindicated. I may be playing at a gold level, but goddammit, I know data!

[Forbiddenwar]

Anyone know if the Hots multiplayer will be a free upgrade or will the community be split between those that have purchased Hots and those who haven't?

[Legoshrimp]

Not sure FW with no info my guess is it will be split but no real idea.

So when I glanced at the sc2 website it looks like there is global play(finally)!

Also we should get a session going for hots when it comes out.

[Archonic Energy]

hmmm.... kinda miffed that the DVD has only the install file the rest is downloaded from the Blizzard servers... i have 8 GB of storage HERE... you sent it to me... it's on this little plastic thing... why aren't you using it?

[Karoht]

Only played through 3 missions, so far I'm enjoying the game.

[Silverraptor]

For The Swarm!

The campaign is awesome!
And it shows just how more dynamic the zerg swarm really is. There's a lot more to it than what you initially expect.

[Karoht]

Indeed. The planet Zerus was most excellent.

Funny thing happened on the mission where you get Swarm Hosts.
There was a ramp that was blocked by stones, and I thought to myself, that spot is going to get attacked later. So I built that area up a bit, and sure enough it got attacked.
So the Locusts from the Swarm Hosts say "hey we want to kill those dudes behind the rocks!" And they proceed to go the long way around, assist in killing the guys at the right hand side entrance, followed by attacking the other group from the rear.

Also, I am totally a fan of near instant Overlords.

[Komatik]

I have long held that terran is most powerful race at pro level, at least until the end of WoL. Data has supported my assertion amongst global metal players, masters and above, and code S. It's why so many post-beta patches have been aimed at terran. I've also wondered why terran in HotS beta looks ridiculously OP.

And I now know why: David Kim, lead balance guy, says Terran is his worst race:
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comment...id_kim/c8qwr2k

Whole AMA is worth a read, but my goodness do I feel vindicated. I may be playing at a gold level, but goddammit, I know data!

Terran looks OP because people don't really know optimal defenses to pushes. It's like in Magic, when in an unknown meta aggressive decks dominate, and control emerges later. You can't control the unknown properly. Quick aggression eliminates the unknown.

The second reason is that Blizzard doesn't have a goddamn clue.

[Spuddles]

Indeed. The planet Zerus was most excellent.

Funny thing happened on the mission where you get Swarm Hosts.
There was a ramp that was blocked by stones, and I thought to myself, that spot is going to get attacked later. So I built that area up a bit, and sure enough it got attacked.
So the Locusts from the Swarm Hosts say "hey we want to kill those dudes behind the rocks!" And they proceed to go the long way around, assist in killing the guys at the right hand side entrance, followed by attacking the other group from the rear.

Also, I am totally a fan of near instant Overlords.

Swarm Hosts OP. Once you get their evolution + pick the upgrade that lets locusts shoot up, you literally need no other unit. Maybe kerrigan to tank a for a few seconds. And queens/creep tumors.

Terran looks OP because people don't really know optimal defenses to pushes. It's like in Magic, when in an unknown meta aggressive decks dominate, and control emerges later. You can't control the unknown properly. Quick aggression eliminates the unknown.

The second reason is that Blizzard doesn't have a goddamn clue.

Word of God dude- Terran OP cause David Kim gave them too much.

[Karoht]

The top players in MLG and GSL and NASL are Zerg players, and the community largely considers Zerg to be the best race for competative play. Literally, just about every MLG I've seen has come down to 3 or 4 zerg players. Terrans and Protoss rarely make the top 6.
But Terrans are somehow OP.
LoLwut?

I really don't place much stock in people complaining that X race is OP. It tends to make me laugh.

[Astrella]

So when I glanced at the sc2 website it looks like there is global play(finally)!

Oh, really? That might actually renew my interest in the game.

[Silverraptor]

Indeed. The planet Zerus was most excellent.

Funny thing happened on the mission where you get Swarm Hosts.
There was a ramp that was blocked by stones, and I thought to myself, that spot is going to get attacked later. So I built that area up a bit, and sure enough it got attacked.
So the Locusts from the Swarm Hosts say "hey we want to kill those dudes behind the rocks!" And they proceed to go the long way around, assist in killing the guys at the right hand side entrance, followed by attacking the other group from the rear.

Also, I am totally a fan of near instant Overlords.

I thought the exact same thing too and built about half as many swarm hosts, spines, and hydras around there as the other 2 ramps. Turns out, the hydras by themselves killed everything before they could get through the rocks. I only had like 6 hydras, and most of them couldn't even hit the nemy hydras. Fortunately, 1 could barely stay in range with the enemy hydras. (Thank you 6 range evolution.)

[Komatik]

The top players in MLG and GSL and NASL are Zerg players, and the community largely considers Zerg to be the best race for competative play. Literally, just about every MLG I've seen has come down to 3 or 4 zerg players. Terrans and Protoss rarely make the top 6.
But Terrans are somehow OP.
LoLwut?

I really don't place much stock in people complaining that X race is OP. It tends to make me laugh.

The balance discussion culture of RTSes in general (even on a saner site like teamliquid) is pretty horrid. Gotta pretend matchup is fair always.

Zerg domination is pretty much a matter of larvae. In more words:

Spoiler

Show

As far as WoL ZvT balance goes, though, apart from Infestors, the whole thing boils down to larvae. In the past, you needed larvae to defend early pushes and to shoo off the contain from Reactor Hellion Expand quickly. Zerg players didn't like it. I vividly remember the endless inanity of "making Roaches is unacceptable because it means we can't drone/tech optimally". I am serious. The damage IdrA and Artosis have done to Zerg players' mindset cannot be underestimated.

The issue is that, as we all have (to our boredom) noticed over the last half a year, the Zerg economy, if unhindered, is broken. The ability to use all your production slots on nothing but economy is way too good to exist, except for the fact that in the past you could force Zerg to use larvae for defense. This meant both sides made army, econ and teched a bit. It was fair (though understandably felt bad for Z because they were literally being damaged).

Also, the only really boring part about Reactor Hellion was that T went for it almost always. The opener itself played out entertainingly enough: both sides had high stakes (immediate, long-lasting loss of map control for Terran, severe economic damage or outright game loss for Zerg) and there was lots of action happening. Terrans were busy trying to snipe tumors, Z was busy trying to sneak them past the Hellions, players had to watch their Queens/Hellions constantly to prevent a Hellion/Speedling snipe, respectively, and so forth. The most important thing of all, though, was that it led to an actual midgame.

And from here we get to the cascade effect the Queendralisk buff had. The early game implications are clear for all to see. But the ripple effects? Dear god. First, creep spread easily goes out of control, where spreading it was an effort before. The better economy (especially less gas expenditure) allows for a very early swell of Infestors, which helps make Zerg safe and essentially kills the midgame, from which we get into quick, fast, Infestor/T3 comp with the accompanying tech switches. The sheer scale of the change is perhaps best realized when one stops to consider that in the past a 17 minute Hive was risky and greedy. Such a far cry from our current, absurdly safe 12 minute Hive timings, isn't it? That's all because Z had to invest into a midgame to fight off the Terran midgame (which they could get to due to less creep and slower Zerg development). And damn, was that midgame ever good.

The slower Hive timings also made the late game more bearable - Terran had more time to get their infrastructure up to contend with Zerg's endgame composition. The fundamental character of it was then, and still is expensive, inflexible Terran infrastructure making very narrow anti-1-unit counters that have no other use vs. a flexible Zerg infrastructure making little but threats.

The greatest casualty of the Queendralisk patch hasn't been balance, though - a certain amount of imbalance you can work around and it is even entertaining for some. The greatest casualties have been fun (the game has become dull), the idea that the game makes any kind of sense (the kind of imbalance and it's degree make the games feel just plain stupid). I also can't tell good and bad Zergs apart anymore. In the past, great creep spread was an achievement. There were brilliant holds, good game sense, great flanks. Mutas hadn't been eclipsed so badly and so were an actual (not just stubbornly stylistic) option. Now it's the same dull monotony where it feels like the sheer, absurd, dominant power of some key units does more work than the player.