Starcraft 2: 8 Medivac drop

[Traab]

Good, because I was going to say, that has to be the stupidest thing ever, making the unit virtually worthless if they can not only kill your other units, but also kill each other!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Good, because I was going to say, that has to be the stupidest thing ever, making the unit virtually worthless if they can not only kill your other units, but also kill each other!

I would prefer to say 'balanced', but that's just me. After all, every other splash damage causes friendly fire. Need I mention doing more damage to a Terran's bunkers with his own Siege Tank than with your lings? Make him blow up his own fortifications!

[Thiyr]

I would prefer to say 'balanced', but that's just me. After all, every other splash damage causes friendly fire. Need I mention doing more damage to a Terran's bunkers with his own Siege Tank than with your lings? Make him blow up his own fortifications!

Correction: only ones does FF: Siege tanks. Colossi, Thors, Hellions, and ultras all don't. If you include spells, templar, ravens and ghosts do FF, but infestors don't. Still, hardly every other unit. (note: not thinking about HotS units 'cause I can't remember if widows FF.)

That said, it would make banes super useless if they did FF. Kill two and you get a chain reaction that kills all their banes unless they're extremely split up? Hardly worth the cost of making them. And making one or two just means they get killed before they can get close enough to do anything. I mean, don't get me wrong, I hate banelings, I'm terrible at dealing with them most of the time, but that would be one of the stupidest things they could do to the unit.


edit: And looking at the patchnotes from TL, it doesn't look like they ever did FF, unless it was an undocumented change.

[Traab]

Correction: only ones does FF: Siege tanks. Colossi, Thors, Hellions, and ultras all don't. If you include spells, templar, ravens and ghosts do FF, but infestors don't. Still, hardly every other unit. (note: not thinking about HotS units 'cause I can't remember if widows FF.)

That said, it would make banes super useless if they did FF. Kill two and you get a chain reaction that kills all their banes unless they're extremely split up? Hardly worth the cost of making them. And making one or two just means they get killed before they can get close enough to do anything. I mean, don't get me wrong, I hate banelings, I'm terrible at dealing with them most of the time, but that would be one of the stupidest things they could do to the unit.


edit: And looking at the patchnotes from TL, it doesn't look like they ever did FF, unless it was an undocumented change.

Yeah that part about killing themselves, THAT was my main beef. If they hurt my other units, ok, no big, I can send in some sacrificial zerglings to soak up the initial defense and have my baneling swarm go in the rest of the way on their own, but to not be able to send in banelings in larger groups than one at a time with a gap between them or else they will just kill themselves? Madness! Any decent anti ground defense could wipe out a full population bioball of banelings just by killing the first few up front and letting them explode and wipe out everything else in the pile behind them. They would be absolutely useless as a unit if that was the case.

[Thiyr]

Yeah that part about killing themselves, THAT was my main beef. If they hurt my other units, ok, no big, I can send in some sacrificial zerglings to soak up the initial defense and have my baneling swarm go in the rest of the way on their own, but to not be able to send in banelings in larger groups than one at a time with a gap between them or else they will just kill themselves? Madness! Any decent anti ground defense could wipe out a full population bioball of banelings just by killing the first few up front and letting them explode and wipe out everything else in the pile behind them. They would be absolutely useless as a unit if that was the case.

Honestly, unless they had a bit higher of a speed, I'd not be a huge fan of the idea of FF to other units as well. Maybe its just that I don't like the idea of a melee-range high-damage splash-unit getting caught with my army, and don't feel like having to micro something like that to avoid killing my own army, but it just doesn't seem fun play-wise. That said, I still hold that chain reaction baneling losses is the bigger problem there. I mean, geeze, one or two tanks shut down all your banes. A small handful of marines shut down all your banes, even if you actually get close enough to kill them! The first time you connect, you lose your whole army. Suddenly they become both massively micro-intensive to use, and require a lot of forethought and precise knowledge applied on the fly to create/select exactly enough banes to get close enough to kill them without having so many that you can't split them to avoid killing yourself. No thanks.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Eh, maybe I'm just remembering roasting my own units with firebats by accident back in SC1 and extrapolating to SC2.

Honestly, splash damage should have some drawbacks, otherwise its just too good. I mean, a few banelings can absolutely murder a marine/marauder bioball.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Well, the drawback is that once you use it you have to buy it again.

[Karoht]

Eh, maybe I'm just remembering roasting my own units with firebats by accident back in SC1 and extrapolating to SC2.

Honestly, splash damage should have some drawbacks, otherwise its just too good. I mean, a few banelings can absolutely murder a marine/marauder bioball.

Yeup, that's balanced alright.
...
no really, what's the problem with this? The MMM has many ways to deal with banelings. Lets look at a few of them:
-Dakka.
-Dakka Dakka.
-Dakka Dakka Dakka.
-Make more Dakka.
-Push button on Stimpack, outmanouver the Banelings AND make more Dakka.
-Concussion Grenades on Marauders.
-If all else fails, jump into the Medivacs, drop down elsewhere, make more Dakka.

Seriously, the Banelings are very easy to counter for MMM. They don't take much damage, you can out range them without issue, you can slow them down, you can hit them with splash damage, etc.

[Draconi Redfir]

So i'm just going through my archives to grab as many acheivements as i can, so i figured i'd ask. with the Kerrigan levels achivement, do i need to get all the levels in campain-mode only? or can i grab missed levels via the archives?

[DarkMemnarch]

So i'm just going through my archives to grab as many acheivements as i can, so i figured i'd ask. with the Kerrigan levels achivement, do i need to get all the levels in campain-mode only? or can i grab missed levels via the archives?

You need to go and redo the campaign in order to get the level 70 Kerrigan achievement.

[Draconi Redfir]

Gotcha, thanks.

[Draconi Redfir]

Okay so, serious question here, so I’d appreciate it if it wasn't responded too with random bashing.

I compared an Abombinaition and an Ultralisk earlier, fully upgraded in both stats so this may be somewhat unreliable.

But here's the thing, i don't remember the exact numbers, but for basic damage Abomination had just a few points lower then Ult, but it's damage against armoured units was almost double that of the Ult's i believe. They had the same defence and movement speed as far as i can recall, and the Abomination doesn't have splash damage, but then again neither does the Ult without the specific upgrade. but it makes up for this by being a lot cheaper and having an additional .5 range to it's attack.

So I’ve gotta ask, the two seem pretty evenly matched to me, if not the Abomb being better then the ult. perhaps it's just the evolutions i took (Reincarnating and splash-damage jaws) but i don't understand why you were all saying the Abomination was so bad awhile ago. Can someone explain to me what exactly makes the Abomb so bad?



... in hindsight i probably should have checked their health, so my apologies on that.

[Traab]

I believe the ultralisk always has splash damage, the upgrade just improves the amount.

[DarkMemnarch]

Okay so, serious question here, so I’d appreciate it if it wasn't responded too with random bashing.

I compared an Abombinaition and an Ultralisk earlier, fully upgraded in both stats so this may be somewhat unreliable.

But here's the thing, i don't remember the exact numbers, but for basic damage Abomination had just a few points lower then Ult, but it's damage against armoured units was almost double that of the Ult's i believe. They had the same defence and movement speed as far as i can recall, and the Abomination doesn't have splash damage, but then again neither does the Ult without the specific upgrade. but it makes up for this by being a lot cheaper and having an additional .5 range to it's attack.

So I’ve gotta ask, the two seem pretty evenly matched to me, if not the Abomb being better then the ult. perhaps it's just the evolutions i took (Reincarnating and splash-damage jaws) but i don't understand why you were all saying the Abomination was so bad awhile ago. Can someone explain to me what exactly makes the Abomb so bad?



... in hindsight i probably should have checked their health, so my apologies on that.

Here are both of the units stats for the abomination and the ultralisk

The abomination is not bad for when you get it , but the ultralisk is so much better because it has 225 more health, 1 more armor and over double the damage as well as splash.

Edit: Well it turns out that is the abomination is called aberration. I feel dumb

[Draconi Redfir]

Soo then yeah, Poor-man's Ultralisk, like i said

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Here's the problem... Vile Roaches.

That 80% hit to attack speed is absolutely crippling. It's like 'take all of your units, now multiply their health by five'. Using a+move rather than focus-firing is actually *more* devastating, as you spread your attacks out, shutting down everything not in the air.

Abominations are meat shields, sure, but vile roaches make *everything* a meat shield. I mean, think about it a second. A simple 'ling has 35 hp. Normally, this would be something of a problem. However, when you hit something with the vile roach and slow down its attack speed, the 'ling is *pounding* on it. Five attacks, maybe even more with Adrenal Glands, before it gets that second attack in. Yes, even 'lings get beefy when backed by Vile Roaches.

Now back them with Hydra...

With Chain Shot + Broodling, regenerating 'lings, broodlords, summon banelings... you've got tons of temporary minions available to you to soak up damage for free. Abominations are nice, but... obviated.

[Spuddles]

There have been people stating that in MP, Banelings hurt your own units as well unless evolved for healing.

In SP, they do not.

I have not tried them in MP, so I don't know personally.

There is no 'evolved for healing'. Basically, banelings do splash damage that hurts everything around them. Which is why you don't cluster them up, because they can start blowing each other up in a chain reaction.

I would prefer to say 'balanced', but that's just me. After all, every other splash damage causes friendly fire. Need I mention doing more damage to a Terran's bunkers with his own Siege Tank than with your lings? Make him blow up his own fortifications!

Eh, maybe I'm just remembering roasting my own units with firebats by accident back in SC1 and extrapolating to SC2.

Honestly, splash damage should have some drawbacks, otherwise its just too good. I mean, a few banelings can absolutely murder a marine/marauder bioball.

Firebats didn't splash your own units. I think they'd splash allied units, though. Banelings never ever had friendly fire. Not in the beta, not ever. Only splash that hurts allies in HotS are siege tanks and widow mines. I lost about twenty mutas in a team game because my ally burrowed that **** under my mutas. So pissed.

Otherwise, the only stuff with friendly splash are storms and hunter seeker missiles. And vortex, kinda. Archons, ultras, colossus, thor, muta, fungal growth, hellion, new firebats- no friendly fire. Friendly fire on those units would make them worthless. Basically giant terran bio balls would always win. Kill the first to banes rolling in and suddenly all enemy banes kill themselves. Colossus stacking up on their own units would kill themselves. Ultras would kill themelves. Hellions would be totally useless.

So yeah, allied splash is dumb. Siege tanks I can see, given their cost, low tech, ridiculous range.

Here's the problem... Vile Roaches.

That 80% hit to attack speed is absolutely crippling. It's like 'take all of your units, now multiply their health by five'. Using a+move rather than focus-firing is actually *more* devastating, as you spread your attacks out, shutting down everything not in the air.

Abominations are meat shields, sure, but vile roaches make *everything* a meat shield. I mean, think about it a second. A simple 'ling has 35 hp. Normally, this would be something of a problem. However, when you hit something with the vile roach and slow down its attack speed, the 'ling is *pounding* on it. Five attacks, maybe even more with Adrenal Glands, before it gets that second attack in. Yes, even 'lings get beefy when backed by Vile Roaches.

Now back them with Hydra...

With Chain Shot + Broodling, regenerating 'lings, broodlords, summon banelings... you've got tons of temporary minions available to you to soak up damage for free. Abominations are nice, but... obviated.

Abominations are supposed to be obviated. And I don't really see the problem with any of that stuff in single player. You're supposed to roflstomp the computer. That's like the campaign design.

[Traab]

Yeah that slow upgrade to roaches is probably the most insane power up ever. Once I get that all I need is to keep producing swarms of roaches with a decent sized group of hydras in back and there is just flat out nothing that can be done to stop me on the ground. Combine that with chain attack, spawn and banelings on kerrigan, and train wreck city.

[Draconi Redfir]

Here's the problem... Vile Roaches.

That 80% hit to attack speed is absolutely crippling. It's like 'take all of your units, now multiply their health by five'. Using a+move rather than focus-firing is actually *more* devastating, as you spread your attacks out, shutting down everything not in the air.

Abominations are meat shields, sure, but vile roaches make *everything* a meat shield. I mean, think about it a second. A simple 'ling has 35 hp. Normally, this would be something of a problem. However, when you hit something with the vile roach and slow down its attack speed, the 'ling is *pounding* on it. Five attacks, maybe even more with Adrenal Glands, before it gets that second attack in. Yes, even 'lings get beefy when backed by Vile Roaches.

Now back them with Hydra...

With Chain Shot + Broodling, regenerating 'lings, broodlords, summon banelings... you've got tons of temporary minions available to you to soak up damage for free. Abominations are nice, but... obviated.

Meh, i went with the ones that spawn roachlings, didn't have that problem.

[Thiyr]

Yeah that slow upgrade to roaches is probably the most insane power up ever. Once I get that all I need is to keep producing swarms of roaches with a decent sized group of hydras in back and there is just flat out nothing that can be done to stop me on the ground. Combine that with chain attack, spawn and banelings on kerrigan, and train wreck city.

Its funny, because I had a similar experience just making a giant ball of raptorlings with the auto-respawn, and kerrigan using the enrage thing. Maybe some hydra or muta if they had air to kill. Who needs defense when you have damage? Colossi? Psh, zergling.

[Traab]

Its funny, because I had a similar experience just making a giant ball of raptorlings with the auto-respawn, and kerrigan using the enrage thing. Maybe some hydra or muta if they had air to kill. Who needs defense when you have damage? Colossi? Psh, zergling.

Honestly, you can probably stomp the campaign with most of the upgrades. Colossi? Pfft, super slow mo shooting. Or colossi? Pfft, splitting banelings. Colossi? Pfft, flying swarm host bugs.

[Draconi Redfir]

Collossi? Pssh, Impalers

[Draken]

So, apparently the very hard AI expands like crazy sometimes.

Losing that ZvZ was quite the wakeup call. :|

[Silverraptor]

So, apparently the very hard AI expands like crazy sometimes.

Losing that ZvZ was quite the wakeup call. :|

How many expansions in how much time?

[Draken]

How many expansions in how much time?

Not very fast because I am derping and expanding at the speed of a snail, but the thing tried to have five bases by the time I woke up, and sent an army to break down the fifth (I think that happened at around 20 minutes, my attack that is).

Fourth base was already entrenched, however. So I was on... About half as many bases and half as much tech. The npc rolled me over with a Broodlord Infestor deathball.

I didn't even know the computers did deathballs.

[Kyeudo]

I think they made the computer opponents smarter.


Anyone want to fill me in on the current metagame? Right now, I'm totally lost vs Zerg, my only Protoss strategy that works consistently is swarm host rushing, and I haven't faced a Terran yet, but I'm afraid of hellbats already.

[Draconi Redfir]

i started a hard mode campain earlier... All i'm going to say is collecting one hundred eggs AND taking out both infested terran bases while being constantly attacked by swarms of hydralisks zerglings and roaches all of wich wipe out your limited forces by the time the battle is over...

...

...

Is very difficult.

[Silverraptor]

i started a hard mode campain earlier... All i'm going to say is collecting one hundred eggs AND taking out both infested terran bases while being constantly attacked by swarms of hydralisks zerglings and roaches all of wich wipe out your limited forces by the time the battle is over...

...

...

Is very difficult.

Not really. I did that mission immediately after the first 3 with just lings/queens/blings, and ignored the eggs and wiped out the base under 14 minutes for the mastery achievement.

[Draconi Redfir]

How one does that when one's troops continue to be slaughtered mercilessly with every combat, remains uncertain.

[Draken]

My guess is baneling spam.