Starcraft 2: 8 Medivac drop

[Kyeudo]

I have always defined Cheese as a play which only works if your opponent does not see it coming. DT Rushes are cheese, because they don't work if your opponent gets detection at all.

[Kyeudo]

Could someone please explain the state of the metagame to me? It's kinda hard to get a solid read from down in silver league.

[Tectonic Robot]

Um, um.

I have no idea, either. I just watch Husky recaps and play with my friends.

[Mutant Sheep]

Could someone please explain the state of the metagame to me? It's kinda hard to get a solid read from down in silver league.

Zerg Meta, circa 2010
Zerg:Zerg rush.
Terran:Zerg rush.
Protoss:Zerg rush.

(Yeah, I dunno.)

[Thiyr]

I have always defined Cheese as a play which only works if your opponent does not see it coming. DT Rushes are cheese, because they don't work if your opponent gets detection at all.

That's generally the definition I use as well, which is convenient for me. It means that when I cannon rush vs protoss, it isn't cheese :D.

As far as the meta goes, no clue. I know marine mine is fairly good vs zerg, and terran mech is still kinda lame, but other than that its hard to get a read from over in 2v2 land.

(also, iirc one of the devs mentioned that they actually actively dislike the mothership less as a matter of balance and more as them wanting it to be a "casual" unit, the kind of thing that isn't good. Why, I have no clue, but as it stands having the same spells between core and full momma make it a waste of space unless you're good at sniping detection.)

[Legoshrimp]

I actually thought they removed the mothership xD.

[Gandariel]

State of the game: (for what i know. I'm top gold, played a couple plats too)

Terran can do both bio and mech.

Bio works as usual, plus some mines. Mech is friggin scary (mainly hellbat/tank/viking with Thors in the end).
I can't tell you any particular timings or strategies. Most people still go bio, anyways.

Zerg: They're using a lot of mutas in general.
Muta/ling/bane is cool vs terran, i've seen it against Toss too.
As a protoss, i've seen several swarmhost centered builds.
One is an "early" thing where you make mass queen, make a path of creep tumors and go to your enemy as fast as possible with mass queen mass swarm host. Hits decently fast.
Another is just Mass swarmhost + whatever you want and lots of static defense, and uses a lot of nydus worms to attack with the locusts. They try to attack your third and fourth to starve you.

Protoss: Can't really tell you since i'm protoss myself.
PvP is a very fast matchup usually: most people go for 1base stuff: 3gate robo, 3gate blink, DT rush.
If they expand, the scariest thing is air, but protoss don't really do that often vs terran or zerg, because marines and hydras are REALLY cost effective vs protoss air.



Now, can i make a small rant about Void Rays:
FRIGGIN VOIDRAYS.

Protoss has NO way to counter Voidrays except more voidrays!

Stalkers are terrible, sentries do pitiful damage, phoenix doesn't do much and Carrier and Tempest die horribly.
The only remaining thing is storm+archons.

I've tried it with mixed success, and the idea i reached is: storm and archons only work if the enemy doesn't do anything and just a-moves towards you. And they only work if you have a LOT of storms and a LOT of archons and all enemy voids are clustered up (and you have to get a good position with your archons, since they''re really big and if you don't micro only 2 or so can shoot)
Still, the voidrays do have the advantage, and if you micro them then storm and archons have no real chance of dealing with them in a remotely cost efficient way.

So what's left? Voidrays of course. The only way to defeat void rays is more void rays.
Which means, if you scout your opponent has gone air, you're already behind, because you have to throw away whatever plans you had (except storms, which may be useful), build your stargates and start your air upgrades, and you'll have to somehow catch up to the enemy's voidray and upgrade count.

[Traab]

In the single player game, which do you guys think is the best choice? The primal zerg drop pods, the leviathan, or the apocalypse? I can see the last one being a nice way to quick nuke a base, the drop pods sound nice but I have never been a big fan of zerglings so im not sure how huge of a difference it would make outside of an emergency, "Oh crap! I am about to get creamed!" scenario. The leviathon I have usually grabbed and just sent off to attack a point by itself, but it doesnt seem to do much damage very quickly.

[Kyeudo]

In the single player game, which do you guys think is the best choice? The primal zerg drop pods, the leviathan, or the apocalypse? I can see the last one being a nice way to quick nuke a base, the drop pods sound nice but I have never been a big fan of zerglings so im not sure how huge of a difference it would make outside of an emergency, "Oh crap! I am about to get creamed!" scenario. The leviathon I have usually grabbed and just sent off to attack a point by itself, but it doesnt seem to do much damage very quickly.

Drop Pods was the way to go. It didn't give just Zerglings, it gave a nice number of hydras and roaches. Add Kerrigan and her OMG abilities and you just murdered everything in your path. When the Drop Pods finally ran out? You got new ones.

[Traab]

Drop Pods was the way to go. It didn't give just Zerglings, it gave a nice number of hydras and roaches. Add Kerrigan and her OMG abilities and you just murdered everything in your path. When the Drop Pods finally ran out? You got new ones.

Hmm, makes sense. Kerrigan can already mow through large numbers of units solo with spawn broodlings chain lightning, and banelings. Being able to drop a sizeable force right in the middle of the enemy would be a handy way to destroy all of everything. :p Seriously, that banelings and broodlings combo is hilarious. I want to give a try to the prison break in without any zerg backup (Except for the part where I have to watch her back of course) just to see how high difficulty I can go and still stomp them flat.

[Karoht]

Leviathan + Mutalisk Pack can head one direction, with your Mutalisks all using the Leviathan as your Rally point.
Kerrigan + Ground Forces can head another.
It makes for a highly successful 2-prong attack typically.

Leviathan also makes a handy "oh, snap" button should your base fall under attack and you've just freshly retreated from a fight.

[Traab]

Leviathan + Mutalisk Pack can head one direction, with your Mutalisks all using the Leviathan as your Rally point.
Kerrigan + Ground Forces can head another.
It makes for a highly successful 2-prong attack typically.

Leviathan also makes a handy "oh, snap" button should your base fall under attack and you've just freshly retreated from a fight.

Hmmm, true true. But I was thinking the drop pods could fulfill the same requirement. Send off kerrigan all by herself one way, my regular army another, and when she single handedly attacks an enemy base, drop pod, banelings and broodlings for a massive swath of destruction. That and the same "Oh crap!" use as the levi. I admit I hadnt thought of a muta swarm, thats a pretty cool idea.

[Artanis]

So I FINALLY managed to finish watching the WCS Europe Ro32, and have a few thoughts on the final standings. Keep in mind that I am a Mathematician (with a degree and everything!), so I tend to read more into numbers than most people, but some things did pique my interest.

Warning: MASSIVE spoilers ahead.


Thoughts on group competitiveness:

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When you look at the actual scores, the groups' outcomes were mostly not very close in the end. There were a ton of surprises for sure (NaNiwa NOT going through? WTF?), but for the most part, #1 and #4 were clearly #1 and #4 in the standiings:

-Half of the eight #1s went through 4-0, and three more went 4-1. TitaN was the only one who went 4-2, and one of his dropped maps was to the eventual #2.
-Likewise, six of the eight #4s went 0-4 in maps. Interestingly, the 1-4s both took their single map against somebody who made it through to Ro16.


#2 vs. #3 was sometimes as clear-cut, but not always. Six of the eight deciders were rematches:

-Of those, three (B, C, and E) went to the same player both times (a combined 4-1 in B, 4-2 in C, and 4-0 in E)
-The other three were split. Interestingly, the eventual 2nd place in A and D actually won fewer total maps head-to-head vs. the eventual #3 with a combined 2-3 in maps, but winning out the all-important decider series (H was 2-2).
--I am certain that overconfidence played some sort of role in A, with NaNiwa absolutely obliterating the "lowly" TargA in their first meeting then going down 2-1 in the decider.
-The two non-rematches (F and G) were 2-0 and 2-1.


So ultimately, the #1 and #4 were about as clear-cut (albeit often quite surprising) as it gets, and only about half of the #2 vs. #3 were all that contested. If you remove group A and D, it was basically all #1 smacking down everybody, #2 smacking down everybody else, and #4 just being shooed away like a chubby asthmatic kid trying to join a dodgeball game.

Thoughts on Ro16 groups:

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It is absolutely bizarre how perfectly the races matched up for the Ro16 groups, with each group having exactly:

-One #1 Protoss
-One #1 non-Protoss
-One #2 Protoss
-One #2 non-Protoss
-Exactly as many #1 Terrans as #2 Zerg, and vice versa

Hell, even the number of Koreans per group is pretty evenly distributed, with either one or two Koreans per Ro16 group.

The probability of the Ro32 results allowing them to set up a distribution even remotely that perfect is...not high. As a Mathematician, I find that sort of occurrence kinda pretty, in a way.

...and yes, we Math guys can be kinda weird

[Karoht]

By default, if I have a Leviathan up, I set my Mutas to follow it. If you just want to crush a single path, set the Leviathan to follow Kerrigan and watch the fun. Leviathan will draw most of the fire, and if you have Queens on follow with Kerrigan, chances are that most things won't be able to hurt the Leviathan enough to beat the healing.
All I have to do then is micro Kerrigan then.

[Traab]

I just did the kerrigan drop pod thing. It was very amusing. I had her go out solo to take down all three of the gates and it went pretty damn smooth. My only "uh oh" moment happened when I was feeling froggy and solo attacked the final base just across the bridge from where the last bile launcher goes. Even then it was timing more than anything. My drop pod squad got taken down while in turn taking out the base itself, then the final squad of insta spawns happened to attack where the bile launcher would be. . . right on top of me. Managed to escape back to my nearby army guarding the landing zone so no big deal. If they hadnt been mainly flying units I could have handled them with my banelings and such but ah well, was still fun. I liked it better than the super slow mo leviathan because I didnt have to alter my usual battle strategy to make it work.

[Kyeudo]

...and yes, we Math guys can be kinda weird

I find the idea that math guys exist kinda wierd. Something that abstract and complicated is something I leave to a computer to do.

[Zevox]

So, I finally picked up Heart of the Swarm, and just finished playing through the campaign. Fairly enjoyable, though I think I preferred Wings of Liberty's (probably because the Zerg are my least favorite faction, granted). Some of Kerrigan's powers get pretty OP though (respawning Zerglings and summoning Banelings especially, particularly combined with those units' evolutions). And on the story, I don't get the point of

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turning Kerrigan human again if they were just going to change her back anyway. I guess she ends up less of a monster, but hell, even so she still needed Valerian's prodding to actually try to not kill civilians needlessly. Not exactly a good sign.

Anyway though, I plan on trying to get back into the multiplayer for a bit now. Haven't played in I think two years though, so I'm sure I'll be rusty as hell, and unfamiliar with the changes HotS made. Anybody have any tips for making that transition? Specifically for playing Protoss - I've never branched out into using either of the other factions outside campaigns.

[Gandariel]

Playing protoss hasn't changed much:

First of all, if you do anything other than a FFE, you need to get your gas (or gases) quicker, because as soon as your cyber core finishes you need the 50 gas to start warp gate, 50 gas to start a stalker, and 100 gas to start your mothership core, which is VERY useful as a unit.
(Of course you don't need all of that gas immediately, but it would be good.)
You do need to start either the stalker or the mothership core immediately vs terran in case of reaper.

Mothership Core:
Very useful unit indeed.
If you feel the enemy is going to attack soon, have it stay at home /with your army. Early game, Photon overcharge is AMAZING.
Keep it with your army usually, if there's a big counterattack you can just recall back home.
As soon as it pops out i usually send it to harass mineral lines. Even against Terran it usually gets a couple worker kills. Just have it outside marine's range, move in, kill one, then move away. Or just cast Timebomb on the worker line.

As for everything else.. Air has suddenly become viable, with the Void Ray buff (tempests are not used much).
PvP, if someone gets voidrays, you HAVE to get your own voidrays (or have a LOT of storms, archons and maybe stalkers).

Oh, Oracle is cool for harass, and more people go DT since it now costs less.
Watch out for banshees and mines. And if an enemy goes swarmhost you have to go air.

[Zevox]

Huh, looks like I ought to practice a while against the AI before going online. Just did one game of that to warm up, and wow, all my timing was a wreck after that first Gateway went down. Granted I was never all that good at the game before, but even by my standards it was sad.

Playing protoss hasn't changed much

So, Zealot/Stalker/Colossus is still standard death ball, Zealot/Archon is still a viable alternative against Zerg and Terran, other units see more situational use? Cool, that's easy to remember then.

Mothership Core:
Very useful unit indeed.
If you feel the enemy is going to attack soon, have it stay at home /with your army. Early game, Photon overcharge is AMAZING.
Keep it with your army usually, if there's a big counterattack you can just recall back home.
As soon as it pops out i usually send it to harass mineral lines. Even against Terran it usually gets a couple worker kills. Just have it outside marine's range, move in, kill one, then move away. Or just cast Timebomb on the worker line.

Oo, good-looking new unit indeed. Though it's a Nexus unit, so it'll interrupt Probe production. Guess I ought to prioritize it for Chrono Boost, then.

As for everything else.. Air has suddenly become viable, with the Void Ray buff (tempests are not used much).
PvP, if someone gets voidrays, you HAVE to get your own voidrays (or have a LOT of storms, archons and maybe stalkers).

Oh, Oracle is cool for harass, and more people go DT since it now costs less.

Good to hear - I always liked air units and Dark Templar. How did the Void Rays get buffed?

Watch out for banshees and mines. And if an enemy goes swarmhost you have to go air.

Really? Granted I didn't use them much, but Swarm Hosts didn't strike me as that scary in campaign mode.

[Artanis]

Really? Granted I didn't use them much, but Swarm Hosts didn't strike me as that scary in campaign mode.

I'm pretty much the exact opposite of an expert, from what I've read and seen...

Locusts can do an utterly ridiculous amount of damage. And when you consider that they're free and (when upgraded) last a surprisingly long time, Swarm Hosts wind up with a very big, very long-ranged punch. AoE and liberal application of Force Fields can work, but it's probably easiest just to send a pack of Void Rays after them.

[Kyeudo]

Good to hear - I always liked air units and Dark Templar. How did the Void Rays get buffed?

They no longer have to charge up. They just have a button that boosts their dps vs armored targets.

[Gandariel]

Voidrays now do 6+4 vs armored, period is 0.5 i think.
If you activate their ability you get an additional +6 vs Armored for 20 seconds.

Which means, 16*2 = 32 dps vs armored. Unupgraded.

Swarmhosts do a TON of damage, and if you use any ground force you most likely lose a lot every time you fight them.
i think they do 12 damage a shot, with the same period of the marine. And each swarmhost produces 2 locusts.
You CAN use storm, forcefield, and colossus, but you WILL lose stuff.
To break it without many losses you need to have an overwhelming amount of forces. And even if you do, there's a new wave just spawning.
Oh, and i forgot. Zerg use Nydus networks, so the swarmshosts might be just safely at home.

Seriously, GO AIR.


Mothership core is awesome, and takes exactly one chronoboost to finish.

And yeah, those unit composition are ok. Get immortals too though, they're one of the best units of the game.

EDIT: AND observers, people are using more and more DTs (Dark shrine costs less) Banshees (cloak costs less) and Swarm hosts!

[Tectonic Robot]

So, uh.

What arcade games are fun? I have tons of fun memories of playing SC I and WC III custom maps, but not so much with SC II. I've seen a few complaints on reddit about how the arcade didn't have much/what it has isn't advertised, and how the people in charge of SC II have made it seem very antisocial as a game and such.

Me and my few friends would enjoy kicking around on funky custom maps very much, however.

[Karoht]

So, uh.

What arcade games are fun? I have tons of fun memories of playing SC I and WC III custom maps, but not so much with SC II. I've seen a few complaints on reddit about how the arcade didn't have much/what it has isn't advertised, and how the people in charge of SC II have made it seem very antisocial as a game and such.

Me and my few friends would enjoy kicking around on funky custom maps very much, however.

Auir Chef.
Starcraft Universe-Currently just a prelude and a demo boss. They just got funded on Kickstarter after being in development for more than 2 years, so the final finished, fully voice acted, full sound track game, is soon to be released.

There is one that just came out, it looks like a combination Metal Slug and Castlevania.

There was a side scroller beat-em-up a while back, looked hilarious.

Also, you don't need to BUY a copy of starcraft 2 in order to play arcade games. You can totally take the free version and use it. Blizzard encourages this, it's not some trick. Just saying.

[Gandariel]

To play arcade games with the free version you need a friend to push you up.

Anyways, try [Day9]Monobattles, Micro Tournament and Nexus wars.

Monobattles, you should know what they are. Basically, everyone is allowed to only build one unit.
Micro tournament is actually pretty cool, all the players have to duel in a lot of (more or less) equal fights, so that the best micro wins. Stuff like Voidrays+Phoenixes vs Corruptors+Mutas, or 5 zealots vs 5 zealots, ling/bane vs ling/bane, or even huge lategame army battles.

Nexus wars (if it's the one i remember) is basically, you send your units in waves, and you have to kill the other guys' units and attack their base. No actual micro or skill involved, you just decide what to send to the enemy.

Note that for each of these there are several "copies" with same name. You recognize the original because if you mouseover it it has 100 times more reviews than the others :) Pick the right one or you'll stay in the lobby forever waiting for people to join

[Mighty_Chicken]

To play arcade games with the free version you need a friend to push you up.

Actually there's around ten maps you can play even if nobody pushed you up. They're completely free to play.

Regarding the recent balance map discussion, why was the Dark Templar speed buff dropped? I don't think it would be ineffiecient. Of course there was the possibility it could make DTs too powerful even if the defender reacted in time, but this could balanced by making DT's attack slower without reducing the DPS.

One Goal's idea for the DT seems nice, too:

-New upgrade: Uraj Amulet
-150/150/80, Dark Templar move 20% faster and become immune to slows, stuns, and mind control

[Zevox]

I'm pretty much the exact opposite of an expert, from what I've read and seen...

Locusts can do an utterly ridiculous amount of damage. And when you consider that they're free and (when upgraded) last a surprisingly long time, Swarm Hosts wind up with a very big, very long-ranged punch. AoE and liberal application of Force Fields can work, but it's probably easiest just to send a pack of Void Rays after them.

Huh. Their damage never seemed that great to me in the campaign, but as I said I didn't use them much, so eh. Low duration for the Locusts was definitely an issue there though - they barely lasted long enough for the next spawn - so if there's an upgrade to that, I could see it helping. Still, the need to burrow to spawn them and the fact that they don't actually go underground when burrowed seems like a pretty bad limitation.

They no longer have to charge up. They just have a button that boosts their dps vs armored targets.

Really? So they're basically at full power all the time now? Holy crap, that is quite the buff. They were already powerful before, they must be damn scary now.

Oh, and i forgot. Zerg use Nydus networks, so the swarmshosts might be just safely at home.

Ack, yeah, combined with an upgrade that boosts their duration, that could be pretty scary. Actually, I hadn't thought of it before, but you didn't get Nydus in the campaign. Kinda sucks, seems like it could be a fun ability.

And yeah, those unit composition are ok. Get immortals too though, they're one of the best units of the game.

Hm, that's higher praise than I'd have given them back when I last played. They seem like one of the more situational units - great against Zerg using a lot of Roaches or Protoss using a lot of Stalkers/Colossi, but not against other common unit compositions, nor against Terran (who always preferred to go MMM against Protoss).

EDIT: AND observers, people are using more and more DTs (Dark shrine costs less) Banshees (cloak costs less) and Swarm hosts!

Yeah, Observers are always important to get, although only a few are really necessary. I did sometimes forget to make a Robo Bay for them when going for air units, though.

[Tectonic Robot]

I'm fairly certain Swarm Hosts are perma burrowed in the multiplayer.

[Kyeudo]

I'm fairly certain Swarm Hosts are perma burrowed in the multiplayer.

They aren't automatically burrowed, but they do go completely burrowed in multiplayer. They are like Lurkers - they get to burrow for free.

[Silverraptor]

They aren't automatically burrowed, but they do go completely burrowed in multiplayer. They are like Lurkers - they get to burrow for free.

Imagine if they couldn't.