Starcraft 2: 8 Medivac drop

[Gandariel]

@Kerrigan's ability:
Respawning zergling is actually the less scary one.
They're like locusts with less damage and way less tech requirements.
What would be scary is double drones AND baneling spawning..
6-7 banelings cast in the middle of the enemy deathball and they most likely lose 30 supply of whatever they had. More, if it's mass marines or hydras.

Protoss OP buffs: they'll get for sure insta-build pylons (like every race), they Will get dark archons, they will get reavers.
What's wrong with Phoenixes? they're awesome ! and they DO cut it vs mutas.
You do need some micro, but phoenixes massacre mutas, and if you get the +range upgrade it's just very onesided.

@Medic discussion: Medics are strong also because they're not targeted. if you A-move you'll target the marines and marauders. you'd have to manually target each medic, which can be a pain in the ass.

[Zevox]

@Kerrigan's ability:
Respawning zergling is actually the less scary one.
They're like locusts with less damage and way less tech requirements.
What would be scary is double drones AND baneling spawning..
6-7 banelings cast in the middle of the enemy deathball and they most likely lose 30 supply of whatever they had. More, if it's mass marines or hydras.

I wasn't looking at ones that would require Kerrigan herself to be present, like Spawn Banelings, just the passive ones.

And the thing about respawning Zerglings vs Locusts: the latter can be cut off by killing the Swarm Hosts spawning them. The former can't, because they spawn from your bases. They'll last all game, guaranteed. (Also, they're faster, especially with their speed upgrade.)

Double drone would probably be OP too, yeah, but in a much more boring way.

[Tectonic Robot]

We should really say 'double workers' because I'm fairly sure all the races are gunna get it in the campaign.

[Zevox]

We should really say 'double workers' because I'm fairly sure all the races are gunna get it in the campaign.

Terrans didn't.

As far as things that we can guess the Protoss will get in their campaign because both of the others did, I think we have:

Double Probe production.
Automated Assimilators
Faster gas harvesting.
Instant-build Pylons
Revive-from-death Colossi. (Terrans got Immortality Protocol Thors, Zerg got Torrasque Ultralisks, so it seems the large ground units are getting this.)
Starcraft 1 units. (Almost certainly Scouts, since we've seen them in the other Campaigns as enemies. Dark Archons and Reavers seem like other decent possibilities. Arbiters maybe, though the Mothership stole most of their abilities. Dragoons and Corsairs might be an off chance, but Stalkers and Phoenixes have pretty much taken their roles wholesale.)

And I think that's it. Otherwise there wasn't any real overlap.

[Kyeudo]

Terrans didn't.

Command Center Reactor let you build SCVs two at a time.

[The Glyphstone]

Terrans didn't.
.

Protoss Research 15 let you develop Command Center Reactor, training 2 SCVs simultaneously. Or is that not what you meant?


EDIT: Dark Templar'd.

[Zevox]

Command Center Reactor let you build SCVs two at a time.

Protoss Research 15 let you develop Command Center Reactor, training 2 SCVs simultaneously. Or is that not what you meant?


EDIT: Dark Templar'd.

Huh. Okay, yeah, I completely forgot about that . Probably because I always took Automated Refineries instead.

So yeah, double Probe production is another one the Protoss will likely get.

[Tectonic Robot]

Huh. Okay, yeah, I completely forgot about that . Probably because I always took Automated Refineries instead.

So yeah, double Probe production is another one the Protoss will likely get.

*patpatpat*

'Tis cool, good sir. 'Tis cool.

Some of the units present in the alpha might show up, too. Like the one which got stronger the more dudes it killed. Or the dark templar carrier thing which shot shurikens.

[Kyeudo]

Huh. Okay, yeah, I completely forgot about that . Probably because I always took Automated Refineries instead.

Automated Refineries was the better choice of the two. Every Automated Refinery was three supply free workers and could be dropped anywhere on the map, even if you didn't need a base there yet. Command Center Reactor only helped you until you maxed out on workers, something that wasn't really hard to do without it.

[Artanis]

Don't forget the mineral savings that Automated Refineries get as well. Three SCVs plus 3 supply worth of Depots comes to almost 200 minerals

[Traab]

What were those units called that looked like robo pumas and sent off aoe shocks around them? They are NASTY versus zerg. I only recall seeing them in HotS once, in that infestor mission with the poison gas every few minutes. But even on low difficulty they manage to hurt my troops noticeably. A solid squadron of them against a ground swarm could be popping zerglings like zits.

[Tectonic Robot]

What were those units called that looked like robo pumas and sent off aoe shocks around them? They are NASTY versus zerg. I only recall seeing them in HotS once, in that infestor mission with the poison gas every few minutes. But even on low difficulty they manage to hurt my troops noticeably. A solid squadron of them against a ground swarm could be popping zerglings like zits.

A solid squadron of them against a ground swarm could be popping zerglings like zits.

popping zerglings like zits.

Thank you for that lovely mental image, Traab.

[Traab]

Thank you for that lovely mental image, Traab.

I am to please. Also for the whiteheads. /runs and hides

[ShneekeyTheLost]

What were those units called that looked like robo pumas and sent off aoe shocks around them? They are NASTY versus zerg. I only recall seeing them in HotS once, in that infestor mission with the poison gas every few minutes. But even on low difficulty they manage to hurt my troops noticeably. A solid squadron of them against a ground swarm could be popping zerglings like zits.

I never had much of a problem with them, probably because I tended to Hydra/Roach + infested tanks and infested medics.

It's a shame Hydra/Roach is not more viable in multiplayer.

[Traab]

I never had much of a problem with them, probably because I tended to Hydra/Roach + infested tanks and infested medics.

It's a shame Hydra/Roach is not more viable in multiplayer.

True, I should clarify, they didnt wipe me out or anything, but I did notice the few random zerglings I had exploded and the nearby roaches went orange or yellow, or whatever the heck the first color after green is. But then again, it was like, two of them, and they got to fire off maybe two shots each.

As for the roach/hydra thing. Yeah, that is pretty much literally the only units I ever used in the campaign unless it was one of those missions where you have to use the new one like guarding kerrigan as she hatches. Its simple, straightforward, and covers all your bases in single player. Im sure there are BETTER choices, maybe ways you could clear each mission with a little less loss of life, or to do it faster, but really, with kerrigan there to kick down the doors, I could probably take down half the missions using nothing but drones for the lulz.

[Tectonic Robot]

What counters roach-hydra in the multiplayer? Marine and Marauder? Collosi and storms?

Also: I hear Marine and Marauder and a few medics is all you need to beat practically every mission in the terran campaign.

[Thiyr]

@Traab: The unit is called the Warthog.



(In reality its called the predator. But I had to.)


As far as roach hydra counters, stalker colossus does it well, zealot-templar-archon can do it decently on the toss side. It really comes down to the splash damage to hydras. Mix in a few immortals to taste, and later on down the road archon-templar and/or a good amount of voids to deal with the inevitable corruptors. I can't say quite as much for the terran end, but if I had to guess, tanks and mines would do a decent job, marines to mop up.


As far as the WoL campaign: psh, marauders. I got through most of the missions with just marines and medics. Occasionally mix in the occasional Hercules for dropping _your entire army_ at a moment's notice as needed and you're good.

[Legoshrimp]

It's a shame Hydra/Roach is not more viable in multiplayer.

Hydra roach is pretty common, at least in ZvZ.

[Hiro Protagonest]

As far as the WoL campaign: psh, marauders. I got through most of the missions with just marines and medics. Occasionally mix in the occasional Hercules for dropping _your entire army_ at a moment's notice as needed and you're good.

Yeah, marauders are okay, but they don't get Stim in the campaign. And really, even when you have tech reactors, why would you pump out equal amounts medic-marauder when you could pump out more medics (a full third of your bioball should be medics)?

[Kyeudo]

Hydra roach is pretty common, at least in ZvZ.

If you survive the Ling/Bling openings

[Gandariel]

How to kill roach-hydra:

Basically, you gotta have A) straight out higher DPS, or B) a good source of area damage.

Terran can do both: You can just go MMM and have your marine/marauder ball stim and a-move into the enemy force. Then it's a matter of who has more units, more upgrades, better positioning, better ability to replenish your army.

Terran can also rely heavily on hellbats, tanks, mines and send out big area damage to enemies. Hydras are very frail against tanks.

Protoss doesn't really have cheap, high-DPS units like marines and marauders, so you have to focus more on area damage with Colossi, High Templars and Archons.
Keep a screen of zealots (zealots do have nice dps as well, but they're mostly there for tanking and mineral dump) and dish out that area damage. Try to focus it on the hydras, since they're the most valuable and strong unit.
Also, remember. Hydras have 80 hitpoints. Psionic storm does 80 damage. Yeah, technically a hydra standing in a storm would survive because it would gain 1 hp from natural regeneration, blah blah blah.

Also, Archons are always cool but they have bad range, they might not be able to strike at the Hydras

[Artanis]

Thoughts on the WCS standings now that the WCS EU Ro16 is done:

Spoiler

Show

By my count, there are 46 players who still have a mathematical chance of getting to Blizzcon:

-Innovation is going to Blizzcon, period.
-ForGG is the only player outside the Top 16 who has been eliminated from his regional but can still get to Blizzcon.
-Everybody below ForGG who has not been eliminated from their regional is alive, but requires at least a trip to the Season Finals to get to Blizzcon.

On a side note, 13 of those 46 are non-Korean

[Zevox]

So, I finally worked up the nerve to do actual multiplayer matches today. Did my five placement matches... and wound up in bronze . Considering last time (which was the first time I'd ever played an RTS in multiplayer, mind) I was placed directly into silver and wound up promoting to gold a little later, that's pretty disappointing.

Of course, it's not like I performed well at all, so I sort of deserve it. My matches mostly involved me sitting in my base trying desperately to keep building things consistently, then moving out when I had somewhere between 100-150 supply of units, only to be crushed by something that countered what I was building.

- First game I went Zealot-Archon with High Templar support, lost to mass Roaches.
- Second I won, mostly because my opponent didn't have a lot built.
- Third I went Zealot/Stalker/Colossus, threw in a lot of Immortals when I saw him massing tanks and using a few other ground mech units. Lost anyway because of the sheer number of tanks.
- Fourth I lost quickly to Terran Mine-rush cheese. Not sure how I could stop it short of going for very early Photon Cannons, honestly.
- Fifth I went for an air force of Void Rays against Zerg, supported by a mostly Zealot ground force. Lost to Roach-Hydra.

There was more to them each than that of course (well, except #4), but that's the gist of what it ended up like . Very frustrating.

[Gandariel]

Eh, that happens.

a few small tips:
1) don't go pure air against zerg. They can make hydras way faster than you make your air units, and they'll just kill you.
you can switch to air if you see he's going muta/ling, or if he has swarmhost-centered builds, but air just from the beginning is pretty hard.

2) scout
I would also say harass, but quite frankly i have a hard time properly harassing, so just focus on scouting :P
Scouting is easy if you remember to do it.
- send a probe whenever you want (after the 1st pylon, after the gate, whatever you want)
-as soon as the cybercore finishes get a mothership core and/or a stalker.
Send the mothership core behind their mineral line to do some harass. Also you'll see some of his buildings and stuff like that. (if he's terran, you can see how many marines he sends after your core)
Maybe send a stalker to check out if he has a third? a natural? just run away as soon as you see what you wanted to see, he likely doesn't have anything faster than your stalker.
-Sentries have Free hallucination upgrade!
Periodically select a sentry, press C X to create a phoenix and send it in to see his army, bases and buildings =)

Also, expand more and earlier. if you have the mothership core you can hold most early pushes with photon overcharge, don't worry.

[Thiyr]

Pure air vs zerg is risky, but air openings can do nicely at times, in my experience. The trick is that voids aren't your work horse, and you need to keep making guys out of gateways. Its all about the phoenix early on. Zip around, kill a worker or two, kill some overlords, get some information. Remember that phoenixes are actually really good against hydras for a good while. Generally speaking its a good idea to drop a robo shortly after your stargate. If they go hydra, you have them colossi to roast them, start making voids after a little bit to help deal with the corruptors, and you're sittin' pretty. If they get a spire, the robo is of less use, but if you see them start getting roach later on, it'll be useful, and you've already got the stargate to punish Mutas. Get the fleet beacon for range up, upgrades, and if you're in need of some punch, make a carrier or two. Plus, you've got the robo if you need to shift tech to deal with them shifting.

[Kyeudo]

So, I finally worked up the nerve to do actual multiplayer matches today. Did my five placement matches... and wound up in bronze

I'm a former diamond player currently in silver. What time zone are you in? Maybe we can do some practice together.

[Mutant Sheep]

I am with Kyeu on this. Practice with the Playgrounders. Or give us replays. It is the best way to conquer Silver.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also, Bronze League Heroes is a good way to see some of the more common blunders found, and some pro tips from Husky how to avoid them.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'm currently in Silver.

I also haven't played in months... first it was Company of Heroes, now it's Awesomenauts.

[Zevox]

a few small tips:
1) don't go pure air against zerg. They can make hydras way faster than you make your air units, and they'll just kill you.
you can switch to air if you see he's going muta/ling, or if he has swarmhost-centered builds, but air just from the beginning is pretty hard.

That's a pity. I rather like early air openings for harassment against Zerg, since they tend to rely on Queens for anti-air if they can get away with it. Did Phoenix harass quite a lot in WoL, was hoping to get similar mileage out of the new Oracle unit now. But if that Stargate is probably just gonna sit there after popping out only a few units...

2) scout

Yeah, that's something I'm terrible at. I can always remember to scout with a Probe after my first Pylon or Gateway, but after that, I completely forget. Always had that problem before, too.

Send the mothership core behind their mineral line to do some harass. Also you'll see some of his buildings and stuff like that. (if he's terran, you can see how many marines he sends after your core)

Eh, I played with that in my single-player testing, and I just don't like how it works. The Mothership Core is rather slow, so it takes some time getting to the enemy base, and if it gets in trouble I usually have to blow its energy on Recall to get it out, which means it won't have the energy for Photon Overcharge - and I can't afford to spend its energy on Time Warping the mineral line.

Maybe send a stalker to check out if he has a third? a natural? just run away as soon as you see what you wanted to see, he likely doesn't have anything faster than your stalker.

What about a Zerg player with Zerglings? Especially with the speed upgrade, but I think even without they're as fast as a Stalker.

-Sentries have Free hallucination upgrade!
Periodically select a sentry, press C X to create a phoenix and send it in to see his army, bases and buildings =)

Now that I wish I'd known before! I though Hallucination was still an upgrade that wasn't worth the time or money. Definitely going to need to play with that.

Also, expand more and earlier. if you have the mothership core you can hold most early pushes with photon overcharge, don't worry.

That's another thing I definitely have an issue with. I'm fine at expanding to my natural, but utterly awful at going beyond that. I never know what a good time to do it is, worry about defending it, and honestly I can't keep up with my income even off just two bases operating at full worker capacity anyway, so three seems excessive. It's certainly a big problem for games that run long though - a couple of those placement matches did see my first base run out of minerals, which caused me to scramble to put up a third so those workers had something to do, which usually just got that third picked off by my opponent just before I lost.

I'm a former diamond player currently in silver. What time zone are you in? Maybe we can do some practice together.

Eastern US.