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  1. - Top - End - #121
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Musings on Language #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Goosefeather View Post
    The equivalent to 'sating/satiating/slaking one's hunger' is to 'quench one's thirst'. I don't think I've ever heard it used adjectivally (i.e. 'my quenched thirst'). I'm pretty sure there's no parallel to 'full' though, beyond 'no longer thirsty'.
    Slaking is for thirst though, isn't it? To slake one's thirst. My slaked thirst. I have never heard of slaking one's hunger.

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: Musings on Language #2

    Quote Originally Posted by dehro View Post
    sure there is: drunk
    Nope - when you're full, you don't want to eat any more, but personally even when I'm drunk that rarely stops me from wanting to drink more

    Reminds me of this extract from HHGTTG

    Arthur Dent: What are you doing?
    Ford Prefect: Preparing for hyperspace. It's rather unpleasantly like being drunk.
    Arthur Dent: What's so wrong about being drunk?
    Ford Prefect: Ask a glass of water.


    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kneenibble View Post
    Slaking is for thirst though, isn't it? To slake one's thirst. My slaked thirst. I have never heard of slaking one's hunger.
    Oops, yeah, my bad!

    Also, 'allay' one's hunger.
    Last edited by Goosefeather; 2012-02-21 at 07:32 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: Musings on Language #2

    I've heard some language comitee has made up the word "sitt" (no longer thirsty) to go with "satt" (no longer hungry). But just like "Elter", meaning "one parent", no one uses it, exept in mockery. Explanation: so far, German only had the word Eltern, meaning parents, and if you wanted to talk about a single parent, you'd have to use father or mother.
    Si non confectus, non reficiat.

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  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: Musings on Language #2

    "Elternteil" is commonly used for one parent, at least in Switzerland. Which translates to, more or less "Part of the Parents".
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    Default Re: Musings on Language #2

    Yep, we use that too, but now, we could also use "Elter" should we really really want to.
    Si non confectus, non reficiat.

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    Default Re: Musings on Language #2

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    One pet peeve is the misuse of "me" and "I", as in, "He is better at math than me", when it should be, "...than I (am)".
    Actually, I never understood how this works. (Non-native speaker here, so don't shoot.) By the same token, shouldn't you say "I am better at math than he"? And doesn't that sound awful? Doesn't "I am better at math than him" sound better?

    I believe that it's quite acceptable to use the accusative/dative case ("him" instead of "he", "me" instead of "I" and so on) after a preposition. In this case, the pronoun ("him") is the object of the preposition ("than"). For comparison, it is definitely correct to say "for him" and "after them" and "before her", right? Is there any reason why the preposition "than" shouldn't be used in the same way?

    Now, saying "I am better than math than he" is no less grammatically correct - though I still believe it sounds awful. It just assumes a different syntax. In this case, the object of the preposition "than" is an entire relative clause ("he is (good at math)"), most of which is omitted. So the pronoun is rightly in the nominative case, because it's now the subject of the omitted verb ("is").

    Or at least, that's how I understand it. Am I wrong? And if so, why? I'd love to learn.

    EDIT - Here's wikipedia's take. I still don't understand why "than him" is wrong. Or if it IS wrong, for that matter.
    Last edited by HeadlessMermaid; 2012-02-22 at 05:37 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: Musings on Language #2

    What do you thin about the claim "Germans can't say squirrel"?

    It's a bit easier than Massachusetts, but really, how do you pronounce it? I think the closest I can get is "skwirel"
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    Default Re: Musings on Language #2

    Squirrel?

    "Skwuhrl"
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    The best solution for us German speakers, I've found, is to say Skwöll and mumble a bit.
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    Default Re: Musings on Language #2

    What's wrong with Massachusets?
    Mass-ah-chew-sets, nein?
    Si non confectus, non reficiat.

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    Default Re: Musings on Language #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    What do you thin about the claim "Germans can't say squirrel"?

    It's a bit easier than Massachusetts, but really, how do you pronounce it? I think the closest I can get is "skwirel"
    SK+whirl......

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    Quote Originally Posted by HeadlessMermaid View Post
    I still don't understand why "than him" is wrong. Or if it IS wrong, for that matter.
    What are you comparing with "than"? That will tell you the answer.

    "I'm better at math than him." Here, you compare your skill at math and him. "I'm better at math than I am better than him." That's not what you want to say, is it?

    If you're comparing your math skill and his math skill, then you should say it like this: "I'm better at math than he is."

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    Default Re: Musings on Language #2

    A thing that just occurred to me, and that is a bit strange: why is the pronoun I capitalized in English, but no other pronoun is?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    A thing that just occurred to me, and that is a bit strange: why is the pronoun I capitalized in English, but no other pronoun is?
    Because I am more important than you, obviously. (Though then the question would be why "me" isn't capitalized. Another question would be, why do I keep switching back and forth between British and American spellings? Last thread I posted in I was spelling things "-ise".)
    Jude P.

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    Default Re: Musings on Language #2

    I have a weird mixture of spellings anyway. I got used to -ize, and the word "tyre" just looks weird, but -our just makes so much more sense for most words!
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    Default Re: Musings on Language #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    A thing that just occurred to me, and that is a bit strange: why is the pronoun I capitalized in English, but no other pronoun is?
    One of the best searchable sites for English etymology, etymonline.com, has this for the origins and reason for capitalization of the word I:

    12c. shortening of O.E. ic, first person singular nominative pronoun, from P.Gmc. *ekan (cf. O.Fris. ik, O.N. ek, Norw. eg, Dan. jeg, O.H.G. ih, Ger. ich, Goth. ik), from PIE *eg-, nominative form of the first person singular pronoun (cf. Skt. aham, Hitt. uk, L. ego (source of Fr. Je), Gk. ego, Rus. ja, Lith. aš). Reduced to i by mid-12c. in northern England, it began to be capitalized mid-13c. to mark it as a distinct word and avoid misreading in handwritten manuscripts.

    The reason for writing I is ... the orthographic habit in the middle ages of using a 'long i' (that is, j or I) whenever the letter was isolated or formed the last letter of a group; the numeral 'one' was written j or I (and three iij, etc.), just as much as the pronoun. [Otto Jespersen, "Growth and Structure of the English Language," p.233]
    The form ich or ik, especially before vowels, lingered in northern England until c.1400 and survived in southern dialects until 18c. The dot on the "small" letter -i- began to appear in 11c. Latin manuscripts, to distinguish the letter from the stroke of another letter (such as -m- or -n-). Originally a diacritic, it was reduced to a dot with the introduction of Roman type fonts.
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    Default Re: Musings on Language #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll View Post
    Squirrel?

    "Skwuhrl"
    Quote Originally Posted by Herpestidae View Post
    SK+whirl......
    Only if you're speaking American or Canadian, of course. If you're speaking British (and possibly Australian? I've never heard an Australian say squirrel before... ) then Yora is right in splitting it into two syllables: Skwi-rell. (Sounds like Quirrel, of Harry Potter fame, only with an 'S' in the front. )
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    Default Re: Musings on Language #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    I have a weird mixture of spellings anyway. I got used to -ize, and the word "tyre" just looks weird, but -our just makes so much more sense for most words!
    Speaking of weird mixtures of spelling--has "dialog" vs "dialogue" come up in this thread? The weirdest bit is that "monologue" retains the "ue" in American English.

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintRidley View Post
    One of the best searchable sites for English etymology, etymonline.com, has this for the origins and reason for capitalization of the word I:
    j love that site!
    Jude P.

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    Default Re: Musings on Language #2

    In Germany, there's the age-old debate whether it's Spontaneität, or Spontanität (spontanity).
    Also, whether it's Kemie and Kina or Chemie and China,
    Si non confectus, non reficiat.

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  20. - Top - End - #140
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    Default Re: Musings on Language #2

    That's no debate, that's a speech impediment Spontaneität does not exist and Kina and Kemie are just wrong.
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    Default Re: Musings on Language #2

    There was a suggestion in Switzerland to spell it Schemie and Schina, though. That's only for a handful of dialects, though, and the official language is very much on the China and Chemie side of the discussion.
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    Default Re: Musings on Language #2

    That's no debate, that's a speech impediment Spontaneität does not exist and Kina and Kemie are just wrong.
    NO YOU! I admit I mostly say Chemie, but hey.
    Si non confectus, non reficiat.

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    Default Re: Musings on Language #2

    Heh. There've been several of those lists. I remember "schadenfreude", for example, appearing on an older one.

    As if English didn't have enough words as is.
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    Default Re: Musings on Language #2

    You already nabbed Schadenfreude.

    That said, aren't there already words for quite a few of those in English?
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    Default Re: Musings on Language #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    You already nabbed Schadenfreude.
    If by "you", you mean them*, then yes, that's what I meant.


    *Native English-speakers.


    [Edit]: Also, the #1 on the linked list can be applied to all manner of pedants and other people too in love with insignificant details.
    Last edited by Greenish; 2012-02-29 at 09:18 PM.
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    Default Re: Musings on Language #2

    Another thread on here has reminded me about something - phrases that simply do not have an easy translation into another language.

    The one what was used was the Japanese phrase "yoroshiku onegaishimasu", which has a context dependent meaning - it can mean anything from 'nice to meet you', 'please be kind to me' or 'thank you for being kind to my child/friend/acquaintance' among others.

    I was trying to think of some English phrases that also defy easy translation - 'pull the other one, it's got bells on' for example - and I was wondering do other people here know of similar untranslatable phrases (Friss die Hälfte was mentioned earlier).

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    Default Re: Musings on Language #2

    Quote Originally Posted by HeadlessMermaid View Post
    Actually, I never understood how this works. (Non-native speaker here, so don't shoot.) By the same token, shouldn't you say "I am better at math than he"? And doesn't that sound awful? Doesn't "I am better at math than him" sound better?

    I believe that it's quite acceptable to use the accusative/dative case ("him" instead of "he", "me" instead of "I" and so on) after a preposition. In this case, the pronoun ("him") is the object of the preposition ("than"). For comparison, it is definitely correct to say "for him" and "after them" and "before her", right? Is there any reason why the preposition "than" shouldn't be used in the same way?

    Now, saying "I am better than math than he" is no less grammatically correct - though I still believe it sounds awful. It just assumes a different syntax. In this case, the object of the preposition "than" is an entire relative clause ("he is (good at math)"), most of which is omitted. So the pronoun is rightly in the nominative case, because it's now the subject of the omitted verb ("is").

    Or at least, that's how I understand it. Am I wrong? And if so, why? I'd love to learn.

    EDIT - Here's wikipedia's take. I still don't understand why "than him" is wrong. Or if it IS wrong, for that matter.
    The easiest way to think about these kind of sentence is to add in the missing verb at the end that nobody says. Compare "I am better at math than he is" and "I am better at math than him is." Saying "him is" should sound clearly wrong to you, and it's the fact that the verb is assumed in those sentences that calls for the nominative case.

    Note, however, that the expression "it's me" has come into common usage and announcing yourself using "it is I" will make you sound like you've been rehearsing your Shakespeare.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    You already nabbed Schadenfreude.

    That said, aren't there already words for quite a few of those in English?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    Another thread on here has reminded me about something - phrases that simply do not have an easy translation into another language.

    The one what was used was the Japanese phrase "yoroshiku onegaishimasu", which has a context dependent meaning - it can mean anything from 'nice to meet you', 'please be kind to me' or 'thank you for being kind to my child/friend/acquaintance' among others.

    I was trying to think of some English phrases that also defy easy translation - 'pull the other one, it's got bells on' for example - and I was wondering do other people here know of similar untranslatable phrases (Friss die Hälfte was mentioned earlier).
    The hardest English expressions to translate are those that draw on words that have a specific meaning in expressions. For example "I'm a ham" meaning I enjoy performing and being the center of attention. Also, pretty much any American southern expression kills translation. For example, "He's got a 10 gallon hat for a 5 gallon head."



    And, if I may add a personal pet peeve. Stop killing the subjunctive tense, all of you! If the sentence refers to a case other than reality, it takes "were" rather than "was." If you have said, "If I was there" you're doing it wrong and it should be "if I were there."
    Last edited by Anarion; 2012-03-01 at 02:05 PM.
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    Anarion's right on the money here.
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    Default Re: Musings on Language #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    And, if I may add a personal pet peeve. Stop killing the subjunctive tense, all of you! If the sentence refers to a case other than reality, it takes "were" rather than "was." If you have said, "If I was there" you're doing it wrong and it should be "if I were there."
    Minor correction. The subjunctive is a mood. If it were a tense it would refer in some way to a point in time.
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    No author should have to take the time to say, "This little girl ISN'T evil, folks!" in order for the reader to understand that. It should be assumed that no first graders are irredeemably Evil unless the text tells you they are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintRidley View Post
    Minor correction. The subjunctive is a mood. If it were a tense it would refer in some way to a point in time.
    Darn you! You stole my nitpick! :b
    Failure to use the subjunctive mood properly is my biggest pet peeve besides "its/it's" being misused.

    Edit: And if I were you I would have written "If it was a tense..." just for the irony.
    Last edited by noparlpf; 2012-03-01 at 04:13 PM.
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