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    Default Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    I have heard from several people I have played with... that Psionics are Broken... So I ask, Are Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking; from a Player's or a DM's Perspective.

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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    Way less gamebreaking than core magic.
    Whatever that's worth.

    Edit:
    The only really broken things in Psionics (short of in-depth optimization) are:
    • Anticipatory Strike - it's the Sorcerer/Wizard's Celerity spell, but psionic.
    • Metamorphosis - it's Polymorph, but more limited.
    • Spell-to-Power Erudite - it can do what the Wizard does. There are a couple extra exploits from where magic and psionics overlap, but largely the problem is its Wizard-ness.
    • Schism - Extra actions, but similar and generally less abusable than the Sorcerer/Wizard Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability, due to its stunted duration.
    • Contingency, Psionic - It's the contingency spell, but psionic.
    • Synchronicity - The only thing really broken Psionics has without a Sorcerer/Wizard analog. Really cool idea, but poor implementation. Even in high-optimization groups, generally deserves a condescending look and a stern "no."

    Overall, it's weaker than arcane casting, characters have fewer breakable options, and generally have fewer options available at a time.

    The one thing that's a bit awkward about it on the DM's end of the table is rationing NPC PP - generally enemies are only going to show up for one encounter, compared to the PC's 4 encounters daily. As such, they typically have more freedom to blow high-PP powers. But this is a problem with Arcane/Divine casting too, and shouldn't be anything to catch someone who's used them off-guard.
    Last edited by Manateee; 2012-02-09 at 09:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    From what I've heard, the initial versions of psionics were very problematic, which got people into the notion that psiocs was broken. The current version is supposed to be much better.

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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    Psionics are not broken in any way, except for the TO tricks that arcane and divine casters have even more of.

    Some DMs think they're OP because they ignore AMFs and SR, but they don't since the default rule is psionics-magic transparency.

    Other DMs might think they're OP because they can change the effect of their Energy powers on the fly or have a number of points rather than certain spells, but that's not OP, just flexible, especially since the psionic classes are limited to a certain number of powers known anyway.

    Other DMs think they're OP because they can focus all their power points into a single power, but they can't, because you cannot invest more PP in a single power use than your manifester level.
    Last edited by Jade Dragon; 2012-02-09 at 09:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    There are misconceptions about them that break things, especially when mishandled or the rules aren't well understood. There are also valid things that are annoying like the lack of somatic or verbal components. Sure in TO magic can be broken harder, but the simpler counters to magic that work in casual games often don't work against psionics. Or the ludicrous bonuses psychic warriors get to grappling which can be very significant in casual games. And this annoys people who don't like splatbook tricks in general that bypass standard counters. The main issue is that it's this way out of the box; players don't pull some cheap trick to get it. Most of the truly broken stuff has been errata'd and splatbooks have bigger tricks if you try, but without trying psionics can still cause lesser problems in casual games.

    In our group some of us have a habit of making fun of psionic characters every time they do something really good, though I think only half the time is it actually too strong compared to what's normally used in a casual game.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2012-02-09 at 09:26 PM.
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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    Psionics are prone to falling into a rut - the character spamming a single tactic over and over. The augmentation system makes this easy to do, the limited number of powers (especially for wilders!) encourages it too. That said, if you're playing the character to some degree keeping it interesting is your responsibility.

    Optimising psi, especially if blasting is easier than magic but ultimately less rewarding.
    Last edited by avr; 2012-02-09 at 09:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    Psionics in 3.5/PF get a bad rap from previous editions. Despite the fact that they are better designed than the standard Vancian spell-casting, they still carry the unbalanced legacy of the past. AD&D psionics was way overpowered compared to magic, & 3.0 psionics was poorly-written in the extreme (like Truenaming bad). Players in this industry have a long memory, for good or ill.

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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    Where is Psyren when we need him?

    Psionics is just a new system, and like ToB in this regard, makes people outright ban it before even playing it just because they don't want to learn it. It has its abuses just like any system but as a whole it's really good.
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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    Psionics suffers from the same problem as ToB, but to a lesser degree: A lack of optimization isn't as crippling as it is for core classes(minus Soulknife). For low-OP games, this *IS* a problem, since they have a hard time dialing back. Worse, psionics is *GREAT* at the one thing low-OP players want their casters to be able to do, blasting. Particularly devastating as a DM, you can easily wipe a party using SRD blasting powers.
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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    Psionics suffers from the same problem as ToB, but to a lesser degree: A lack of optimization isn't as crippling as it is for core classes(minus Soulknife). For low-OP games, this *IS* a problem, since they have a hard time dialing back. Worse, psionics is *GREAT* at the one thing low-OP players want their casters to be able to do, blasting. Particularly devastating as a DM, you can easily wipe a party using SRD blasting powers.

    On the other hand, in high-OP games, they start falling behind wizards, druids and clerics, who are more versatile.
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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    Quote Originally Posted by Godskook View Post
    Psionics suffers from the same problem as ToB, but to a lesser degree: A lack of optimization isn't as crippling as it is for core classes(minus Soulknife). For low-OP games, this *IS* a problem, since they have a hard time dialing back. Worse, psionics is *GREAT* at the one thing low-OP players want their casters to be able to do, blasting. Particularly devastating as a DM, you can easily wipe a party using SRD blasting powers.

    On the other hand, in high-OP games, they start falling behind wizards, druids and clerics, who are more versatile.
    Dialing back is pretty easy for psions and wilders, actually. They can volunteer to not spend as many power points on a given power, reducing damage capacity or duration or versatility in favor of endurance (more power points by spending more carefully). Other than that, they'd have a more difficult time only by using higher level powers that start fairly potent in their own right without augmentation.

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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    Overall, the psionic classes end up being about on a par with the sorcerer. You do gain a little extra flexibility from being able to use all of your PP on high-level powers, or all on low-level powers, depending on how the day goes (one or two big fights vs. a whole bunch of small fights), but on the other hand, there's also considerably less support for them in other books: The other books introduce a smattering of new psionic powers, but a great many more sorc/wiz spells, and likewise for meta feats, prestige classes, etc. In an SRD-only environment, psionics probably comes out a bit ahead of sorcerer, but in an all-books environment, they're a bit behind, but in either case, they're below wizards, clerics, and druids.

    The bigger issue, of course, is that many DMs just don't feel that psionics fit in with the world they've created, but that's a completely independent issue from balance.
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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    Myth: The XPH is Overpowered

    Here is a port from the old Wizards board of the thread of the same tittle which explained in depth why Psionics are not Overpowered.
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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    Yes, it basically comes down to a content thing.

    Psionic powers are worded for more convenience and in most games convenience equals power. This makes them gamebreaking for a lot of tables.

    But since Psionic powers have more careful wording, they don't suffer from as many of the unintentional glitches caused by lazy writing (See arcane spells). This makes them much more tame from a TO or high OP game perspective. This causes them to get a rep of being bad since they are close to a wizard but not as good. (Not as good meaning you can't use RAW psionics like a crowbar to pry your way into unlimited power as easily as you can with the lazily written arcane and divine spells.)

    Then we get down to content. Most of the sheer power of conventional casters comes from the sheer amount of spell content. There are large portions of spells in almost every book. And more than one entire book devoted entirely to spell casters only. Example complete warrior is supposed to be about melee's but it has spell casting content in it, meanwhile the casters get complete arcane, complete divine, and complete mage all devoted to their fields. This kind of one sided content output is directly responsible for the "spellcasters are out of hand" situation we find ourselves in today. Combine this with the seemingly non-existent communication between designers and lazy writing, and we end up with spells that do the same thing with the same fluff and justification but stack anyway, spells that do more than the RAI meant for them to do, and series of spells that work together to bypass game mechanics in general to bestow god-like power.

    Psionics does not have this kind of content, and in comparison to normal spellcasting, psionics has been worded well. So it is out of position to unseat the solid T1 casters. I still feel it should be classified as a T1, even though it is not as powerful as wizard it can still meet T1 criteria. It is just not the most powerful T1.

    Having said all that, there is still ways for psion to be game breaking in a High OP or TO setting.

    There are ways to gain all the powers known, then gain infinite power points, then duplicate those powers and pass them out to your party essentially turning your party into equal lvl broken psionicists with infinite power points as well as whatever they normally do. If you throw Spell to power erudite into that mix... you win.


    In no way shape or form is psionics "bad". (unless you mean bad in a gamebreaking way).
    Last edited by Gotterdammerung; 2012-02-09 at 10:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    The thing that makes the Wizard stronger than the Psion isn't lazy wording or broken splatbook content.

    It's things like Planar Binding, spellbooks or metamagic, used exactly as they're supposed to be used. Psions just don't have anything that comes close to rivaling that.

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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    I don't think I've ever seen a player cast planar binding in my entire life. Using a psionic power without a verbal or somatic component OTOH is impossible to avoid.

    It's not that bad and the group I'm in uses it without major headaches but it has its issues that do come up frequently. For the OP: feel free to use psionics but get really familiar with it first to avoid the common DM/player mistakes others listed and likewise treat it like you would any other additional material and so expect some things to be strong.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2012-02-09 at 10:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    If you already allow Sorcerers, Wizards, Druids, and Clerics, then Psionics are just another fun system with its own set of strengths and weaknesses.

    I figure it bears repeating, so I'll say it again: You cannot spend more PP on a power than your manifester level!
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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu_Bonkosi View Post
    Psionics is just a new system, and like ToB in this regard, makes people outright ban it before even playing it just because they don't want to learn it.
    Excuse me? New? LOLwut? Psionics was first introduced in the book Eldritch Wizardry in 1976. That's two years after the game was first created. Psionics is many things, but "new" is not one of them.

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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    Psionics can be used to break the action economy in half, but doing so is often very expensive in PP and requires a certain amount of build investment as well. In fields other than action economy, it is at best equal to its Arcane or Divine counterparts.

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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta Kai View Post
    Excuse me? New? LOLwut? Psionics was first introduced in the book Eldritch Wizardry in 1976. That's two years after the game was first created. Psionics is many things, but "new" is not one of them.
    What if he says its a different system, and people don't want to learn it?

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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    The most broken thing about Psionics is the class that gets Arcane spells. That should say a lot about relative power levels.

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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystify View Post
    What if he says its a different system, and people don't want to learn it?
    Oh, I guess I should give a little backstory...
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    I am currently in a campaign (3.5 + 3.0 Arms & Equipment Guide) with two different DMs one of them handles the Roleplay aspects of it, and the other handles the Combat, more or less.

    The DM who handles the Roleplay (and is the head DM) is indifferent against psionics, but Our combat DM has a High aversion to it, as in every time I bring it up he acts like he is going to throw the Monster Manual at the first Psionic character I roll up... Unfortunately I have a backup character that I would like to play (if I die) that would be a Wilder/Spelltheif, with the baseline concept of I can haz EVERYTHING! (due to the Psitheif Feat in Complete Scoundrel) not Only that but I figured it might be cool to make a character that is very blatantly anti-spells, and anti-psionics.

    Not only that but I fear that My Party, or certain members of my party may or may not kill off my character because... well, he is an arcane caster in a world that, more or less Hates the arcane... or I may slip up and accidentally reveal my self to a NPC That I am arcane... due to detect magic, or something else.

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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    One of my players thinks psionics is WILDLY OVERPOWERED (oh noe!). Sorry, but his aversion is extreme enough, I have to mock it. From what I can tell, this stems from one character he made several years back, to a higher op level than the rest of the party, "going nova" impressively in one mass battle against hordes of weaker enemies. Blasted a surprising amount, thus psionics is ridiculous, forever.

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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    Quote Originally Posted by Manateee View Post
    The thing that makes the Wizard stronger than the Psion isn't lazy wording or broken splatbook content.

    It's things like Planar Binding, spellbooks or metamagic, used exactly as they're supposed to be used. Psions just don't have anything that comes close to rivaling that.
    Planar Binding- Not broke until you use TO tricks to bypass its checks and balances, removing the risks from the spell. These tricks come from the massive content a normal caster gets to play with. This content also vastly improves the possibilities of Planar binding by introducing new monsters. Very little of this content is compatible with a psionicist. The point about content stands.

    Spell Books- I assume you mean the way they can learn every spell. Still, spellbooks as nice as they are, have their own checks and balances, and a psion has tricks to learn every power. I don't see how spellbooks become a relevant lead for wizards over psions.

    Metamagics- Metamagics arent broke until you add in all the content that backs them up. Again the point about content still stands.


    Quote Originally Posted by Manateee View Post
    Psions just don't have anything that comes close to rivaling that.
    I think getting infinite power points and then using those power points to perform the "mad minute" (basically an infinite time stop) qualifies as coming "close to rivaling that". Hell, gettings all powers known and infinite power points comes close. And then putting it all together to give all your party members all powers and infinite power points kinda puts us there. Yep, we are there.

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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    Psionics is overpowered, but normal spellcasting is way more broken. If you consider Sorcerers and Clerics to not be broken, then psionics isn't broken either. It's magic, though, and in 3.5, more magic = more better. Full manifesting classes are really only a half-step behind full casting classes for sheer power.
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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta Kai View Post
    Excuse me? New? LOLwut? Psionics was first introduced in the book Eldritch Wizardry in 1976. That's two years after the game was first created. Psionics is many things, but "new" is not one of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystify View Post
    What if he says its a different system, and people don't want to learn it?
    Mystify is correct in my meaning.

    I know that two of my DMs don't like either ToB or Psionics just because they don't want to learn the new mechanics that the two systems add the the base system.
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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    isnt there a combo with Talented, over channel and improved over channel that lets your wilder derp around all map until the boss where he throws a full PP 1st level power with no save? it comes out to like 60d6 or something like that at lvl 10 and leaves him with 1 hp....but the boss is just gone.
    (i know this isn't the whole combo but it's the basis)
    Last edited by Averis Vol; 2012-02-10 at 04:32 AM.
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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    I love psi. The PP system is just plain more fun than Vancian casting. I'd play a Psion over a Wizard any day.
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    Default Re: Psionics: Good, Bad, or Gamebreaking

    Quote Originally Posted by Averis Vol View Post
    isnt there a combo with Talented, over channel and improved over channel that lets your wilder derp around all map until the boss where he throws a full PP 1st level power with no save? it comes out to like 60d6 or something like that at lvl 10 and leaves him with 1 hp....but the boss is just gone.
    (i know this isn't the whole combo but it's the basis)
    Wilder's signature ability, Wild Surge, doesn't work with Overchannel. Either you're mis-remembering, or the person you got it from was breaking some rules.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JadePhoenix View Post
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