Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."

[Cheesegear]

Here's an idea;

Wolf Lord - 235 Points
Power Fist, Storm Shield, Thunderwolf
Bear

5, S10 (Thunderwolf adds strength to profile) attacks, T5, 3+ Invulnerable and Eternal Warrior. Basically Lysander with one less wound and the ability to go really fast.

Only thing missing is a 2+ save - which you can get, if you want. You can swap to a Jump Pack to not be Calvary, but you lose a point of Toughness and an attack (), and then you're only S8 as well. And you'll be on a Jump Pack which means hanging out with Skyclaws ().

[Renegade Paladin]

Two separate rules- from the time when Force Weapons didn't inflict Instant Death.

"All gargantuan creatures are immune to the Instant Death rule.

In addition, because they are so large and powerful, they are not affected by any attack that would normally kill a model automatically (like a Force weapon, an attack that kills as a result of a characteristic test, etc). Such attacks cause D3 wounds instead"

So, shouldn't the 5E Force Weapons simply have no extra effect- falling under "causes Instant Death" rather than "would normally kill a model automatically".?

For comparison, would the Tempest Blade wielded by Captain Sicarius cause D3 wounds instead of Instant Death, under your interpretation?

I was just browsing through my Apocalypse books, and have come upon precedent. In Apocalypse Reload, the Hellstorm Squadron's combined fire inflicts instant death, and d3 wounds to gargantuan creatures instead. This seems to indicate that this was the intended procedure.

[Hootman]

An Armageddon-pattern Sentinel is actually armored with a lascannon, if you want to be ultra-fluffy.

I knew their Sentinels normally had lascannons, but I didn't know they were armored too. I didn't have the points to keep the lascannons as I was building them with originally, but if I build them as single Armored Sentinels (since squadrons don't do anything good for Armored Sentinels), I may end up saving points and being able to get...I have no idea what. Maybe a powersword, or heavy bolter sponsons on the Russ.

Speaking of things I don't know about, where would you suggest I put that Lord Commissar?

[Renegade Paladin]

I knew their Sentinels normally had lascannons, but I didn't know they were armored too. I didn't have the points to keep the lascannons as I was building them with originally, but if I build them as single Armored Sentinels (since squadrons don't do anything good for Armored Sentinels), I may end up saving points and being able to get...I have no idea what. Maybe a powersword, or heavy bolter sponsons on the Russ.

Speaking of things I don't know about, where would you suggest I put that Lord Commissar?

Well, you could build them as armored Sentinels, but run them as scouts and just say it's an unarmored enclosure due to the atmosphere.

As for the Lord Commissar, NOT the command squad. Other than that... well, he really doesn't fit in the list, to tell you the truth. You use a camo cloak Lord Commissar in a blob to give the whole squad Stealth. You could stick him with any given veteran squad, since they're all the same, but he's not going to do much unless/until they get de-meched. If I took my pick, I'd say the veterans in the heavy flamer Chimera, since it's more likely to want to be up close, and hence in more need of a guy with a powerfist when it gets blown up.

[Ninjaman]

I wondered, can you magnetize your special weapons? If not would you assemble both flamers and grenade launchers (then you would only have 5 basic troopers), and how do you get meltas and plasmas?

[Cheesegear]

Just a Note about this knee jerk reaction to Raveners [...]

Everything you said makes sense, but immediately falls apart when you are presented with a multi-storey building. Being Beasts is really, really, really bad. If you need a hybrid unit that badly, go with Shrikes or Warriors who are not Beasts and cost roughly the same.

...and I suddenly have a lot of free time on my hands...

Tyranids (cont.)

Heavy Supprt:

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Carnifex Brood (Feed): Similar to Warriors, these guys are nearly always misused, and therefore very misunderstood when it comes to their abilities. S9 is all well and good, but that I1 is incredibly bad. If you don't have an Invulnerable Save, you shouldn't be in Assault. They are Fearless, which is kind of helpful, but they still aren't Synapse. If you really wanted to, you can join a Prime to the unit - yes, even if you only have one Carnifex, he still counts as a 'unit'.

Crushing Claws: No. Don't pay points for these. Even if you do get into combat, if you can't do it with 4(+1) Monstrous Creature attacks, you're in the wrong combat.
Deathspitter, Devourers: Paying 175 Points to be the equivalent of 4 Termagants, or one Warrior isn't my idea of efficient.

Stranglethorn Cannon: As we've seen before, always ignore for...
Heavy Venom Cannon: Anything in the 'dex that can take these things, should be taking them, no exceptions. Remember, if this guy fails his IB check (Ld7), he can't shoot. Which is why being babysat by a Prime is kind of a good idea. Kind of.

Frag Spines: Only ever take if you also take...
Adrenal Glands: Taking these means that you're trying to be in Assault, I hope you didn't pick up Crushing Claws to go last instead of I4. And that's only if you initiate. If your opponent initiates against your Carnfiex, he's probably got a plan, and it isn't going to end well for you.
Toxin Sacs: Meh. I wouldn't go spending points on it if I didn't have to. But, if you are building Combatifex, re-rolls To Hit with your Talons (What happened to Old Adversary Hive Tyrant?) then re-rolls To Wound with your Toxins is alright, I guess. But I hope you've taken the previous upgrades too.
Bio-Plasma: Unlike Hive Tyrants, Carnifexes actually have a second weapon that synergises with the Heavy Venom Cannon, and - for Tyranids, at least - it's a valuable source of AP2. Take it even if running an Assault Carnifex.
Regeneration: Probably not worth it.

A Carnifex shouldn't really be in Assault. The Heavy Hitters of today's game (Sanguinary Guard, GKs with Halberds, Hammernators) will stomp it with ease. That said, even if you do take a Heavy Venom Cannon, that doesn't stop you from being a Monstrous Creature. So, if there is an opportunity for an Assault - which you can win, say, against Guardsmen - then you can go for it. HVC and Bio-Plasma is great, both ignore FNP.

That said, a Harpy costs about the same but isn't as effective in Assault. And can fly.

Old One Eye: No. Take a Trygon Prime or a Tyrannofex instead. I wont say any more on the matter. He's over-costed and he's bad. Which makes him double bad. Bad, bad.

Biovores (Lurk): These things are great when your opponent hasn't Meched-up like a boss. If your meta-game knows what they're doing, these become very useless, very quickly. If they don't...Well, even when Biovores miss, they hit.

Trygon (Feed): The Trygon, oh, the Trygon. It's alright. I mean, it isn't bad. But it's competing for slots with the less expensive, more effective Carnifex, and the more expensive, more effective Tyrannofex. Don't bother with any of the upgrades, you've either got Assault in the bag as it is, or your opponent is unloading so many shots into you having Regeneration wont even matter.

Opinions are divided on whether to Deep Strike it or not. It'll take a minimum three turns to be in Assault - that's minimum, remember. Wheras if you don't Deep Strike, you will be in Assault on Turn 2. The difference is how much you get shot at. You can use a Venomthrope to give Cover Saves, you can use another MC for Cover Save (Tyrant with Guard), etc.

+ Prime: A 40-point upgrade to upgrade your gun, and to give Synapse and Shadow. Instinctive Behaviour doesn't matter on a Trygon since Feed is what he wants to be doing and his gun isn't that important that you should care whether he fires it or not. Being a Prime is usually not worth it, and you'd probably be better off getting the other upgrades. Adrenal Glands couldn't hurt.

Mawloc: If you really want an Assault Carnifex, take one of these instead. Where possible, don't start him in Reserve. If he begins the game on the board and Burrows in Turn 1, he is guarenteed to come on next turn. Wheras otherwise, he is not, and you'll have to take steps to make that happen. Like Hive Commander or Swarmlord. Another source of AP2 which is immensely helpful, but a Carnifex has an HVC. Carnifexes are really, really good in the Heavy Support slot (if you aren't using the points for Harpies).

Tyrannofex (Lurk): Rupture Cannon always. Stinger Salvo same as the others. And Electroshock Grubs is probably the best Thorax slot. Regeneration optional. Never take the other upgrades. Where points allow, you should alternate between Carnifexes and Tyrannofexes. Tyrannofexes are better than Carnifexes, but two Carnifexes are better than one Tyrannofex. Again, it has to do with how many points you have to play around with.

One Carnifex.
If you have the points, swap for a Tyrannofex.
If you have the points, swap for two Carnifexes.
If you have the points, swap for two Tyrannofexes.
If you have the points, swap for three Carnifexes.
If you have the points, swap for three Tyrannofexes.

Once you're at 4+ Carnifexes (2+1+1), you don't really need Tyrannofexes anymore.

Done. All done.

[Renegade Paladin]

I wondered, can you magnetize your special weapons? If not would you assemble both flamers and grenade launchers (then you would only have 5 basic troopers), and how do you get meltas and plasmas?

It's really hard on Cadian troopers due to the way the weapons go together. (It's easier on Catachans, since they do a lot of holding their stuff in one hand.) But your math is fuzzy; there's ten men in a box, and only two special weapons. With a sergeant, that's seven basic troopers.

There's one plasma and one meltagun in the command squad sprue. If you want more (and you do), you need to buy the meltagun pack they sell.

[Wraith]

Interesting read, CG. Only one small disagreement from me - in fact, not so much a disagreement as a proviso....

(Carnifex) Regeneration: Probably not worth it.

If you have a lot of Carnifex - at least, 2 or more per Brood - there is some amusement to be gained by playing Musical Wounds with T6, 3+/5++, Regenerating creatures. But yeah, otherwise it's just another symptom of what is my biggest gripe about Carnifex; they're just too damn expensive.

Don't get me wrong, I fully agreed with you when you said....

Tyrannofexes are better than Carnifexes, but two Carnifexes are better than one Tyrannofex.

But at the same time? Carnifex are 160 points each - without wargear - for something that isn't as tough, strong, agile or skilled as a Wraithlord. I know there are differences, and A4+2+rerolls is very, very nice, but they share all the same weaknesses and I don't think a gap of 70pts is justified.
I may well be that I have been spoiled by a really good unit in a really old, unchecked Codex that I've loved for many years, but even so I'd probably go with 2x Tyrannofex anytime and know that I was probably getting my points' worth for it.

Having said that, I have a special place in my heart for the Mawloc. It sits on a shelf besides the Nemesis Dreadnight under the cataegory "this is just so stupid that I must have one". That statement may or may not invalidate everything else that I have just written, I'll leave it for you to decide.

[Cheesegear]

If you have a lot of Carnifex - at least, 2 or more per Brood - there is some amusement to be gained by playing Musical Wounds with T6, 3+/5++, Regenerating creatures.

False.
Monstrous Creatures are not vehicle squadrons, and they're identical. Which means removing whole models first. If your Brood takes four wounds (after saves) then all four of those Wounds are applied to one model. And wounds are applied to whatever already has wounds, which means when something starts dying, it dies faster.

Second, all models in the Brood are identical, which means paying for Regeneration for all models in the Brood. Now, remember, only one Carnifex can be damaged at a time, which means the Regeneration on the other one/two aren't doing anything.

Granted, it means your unit sticks around for a long, long time. But, Regeneration over two Carnifexes, you can get a whole Brood of Termagants.

But at the same time? Carnifex are 160 points each - without wargear - for something that isn't as tough, strong, agile or skilled as a Wraithlord. I know there are differences, and A4+2+rerolls is very, very nice, but they share all the same weaknesses and I don't think a gap of 70pts is justified.

Again, whenever people complain about the points costs of Tyranids, I have to point out that it doesn't matter. Tyranids are not Eldar. Tyranids are dirt cheap otherwise, and even have units that spawn more units for free. Points costs for Tyranids are never an issue. Except for when they are.

Or maybe I'm confused about what you're talking about. Are Carnifexes bad in regards to Wraithlords, or are Tyrannofexes bad in regards to Carnifexes?

EDIT: Or maybe you mean something else, if it's unclear, read the shortlist. You have one Carnifex, swap that for a Tyrannofex, swap that for two Carnifexes. i.e; Have one or the other.

[Wraith]

False.
Monstrous Creatures are not vehicle squadrons, and they're identical. Which means removing whole models first. If your Brood takes four wounds (after saves) then all four of those Wounds are applied to one model. And wounds are applied to whatever already has wounds, which means when something starts dying, it dies faster.

Ah, I see what I've done - the Codex specifically says "all Carnifex in a brood must take the same upgrades" and I didn't notice it. Objection withdrawn.

Or maybe I'm confused about what you're talking about. Are Carnifexes bad in regards to Wraithlords, or are Tyrannofexes bad in regards to Carnifexes?

More that I think Carnifex are comparable to Wraithlord, the latter of whom are much, much cheaper in comparison, and I don't think that Codex: Tyranids can pull that off.

Obviously, you can't have an army that pays the same for Monstrous Creatures as everyone else, but much cheaper FoChoices everywhere else - from a Game balance point of view, that just doesn't work. You'd end up with an inordinate - perhaps even, unfair? - amount of one or the other.

With that in mind, I believe that Tyranids have gone too far the other way, which is one of the reasons why they're a lower-Tier'd army. They require far too much synergy that can be too easily disrupted, and have so many just 'bad' units, that they are one of the few cases where they need MORE broken stuff to be a competitive army.
Bottom line: I think that Carnifex are over-priced, even in the context of an otherwise cheap FoC. You simply don't get enough of what you need out of them, whether Shooting at tanks or (especially) in Assault.

EDIT: Or maybe you mean something else, if it's unclear, read the shortlist. You have one Carnifex, swap that for a Tyrannofex, swap that for two Carnifexes. i.e; Have one or the other.

Nope, I get that, and I agreed with it.
Not, however, particularly because I think that three Carnifex are as good as two Tyrannofex. I just like the Tyrannofex more - it knows what it is and it does it's job as it should, whereas the Carnifex look like they should be Assault units but, after a little casual thought, actually require something very different and I don't care for the 'deception'.

On reflection, a lot of this might just be my inner-Timmy talking (you've played Magic: the Gathering, I know ) and he probably costs me as many games as he wins, so make of that what you will. I just instinctively don't like the path that Carnifex takes me down.

[Ninjaman]

It's really hard on Cadian troopers due to the way the weapons go together. (It's easier on Catachans, since they do a lot of holding their stuff in one hand.) But your math is fuzzy; there's ten men in a box, and only two special weapons. With a sergeant, that's seven basic troopers.

No, you get two identical sprues each with 2 of each weapon. And how many should i assemble?

There's one plasma and one meltagun in the command squad sprue. If you want more (and you do), you need to buy the meltagun pack they sell.

But aren't they marine size? And what about the plasma guns?

[Squark]

But aren't they marine size? And what about the plasma guns?

I would think they would still work. Alternatively, there's a guide floating around somewhere about converting guard flamers into meltaguns. I found it with a quick google search; shouldn't be hard to find. For plasmaguns? Trade around for people who have all the plasma they need, I geuss.

[Renegade Paladin]

No, you get two identical sprues each with 2 of each weapon. And how many should i assemble?

Grenade launchers and flamers are relatively worthless in most metagames, owing to everyone playing Marines. Very few, if you can help it (unless someone's really fond of Green Tide, Infantry Guard, and/or Tyranids). I only have two flamers and a heavy flamer in my entire infantry force, and six grenade launchers, which are a legacy from the guy I bought my initial army secondhand from.

But aren't they marine size? And what about the plasma guns?

They're the same size as the one that comes in the Guard command squad box. You can hold them side by side and compare.

As for plasma guns, I don't use nearly as many as I do meltas; putting together the ones from my various command squads has served me well without having to buy more, so I don't know how well the pewter plasma guns work with Guard. I imagine they'd work about the same as the meltas, though.

[Penguinizer]

I think the grenade launchers are fine. They're good for smaller games and on squads where you can't afford plasma. I found the strength 6 shots worth it. Matter of opinion though, plasma is generally better.

[Renegade Paladin]

The strength doesn't matter nearly as much as the AP. I would happily have S6 plasma, as long as it could still roast Terminators.

[Ninjaman]

Grenade launchers and flamers are relatively worthless in most metagames, owing to everyone playing Marines. Very few, if you can help it (unless someone's really fond of Green Tide, Infantry Guard, and/or Tyranids). I only have two flamers and a heavy flamer in my entire infantry force, and six grenade launchers, which are a legacy from the guy I bought my initial army secondhand from.

I actually have a friend who plays green tide, but flamers might not be worth it, i think outflanking scout sentinels are better at it.

[/QUOTE]They're the same size as the one that comes in the Guard command squad box. You can hold them side by side and compare.
As for plasma guns, I don't use nearly as many as I do meltas; putting together the ones from my various command squads has served me well without having to buy more, so I don't know how well the pewter plasma guns work with Guard. I imagine they'd work about the same as the meltas, though.[/QUOTE]

I guess i will just buy a 5-pack of each then.

I think the grenade launchers are fine. They're good for smaller games and on squads where you can't afford plasma. I found the strength 6 shots worth it. Matter of opinion though, plasma is generally better.

For 5 points it might be good. it hits more than the lasgun if you use template, and hurt more on T4/Sv4+.

The strength doesn't matter nearly as much as the AP. I would happily have S6 plasma, as long as it could still roast Terminators.

Tau got that. Overheat proof.

[Squark]

So, how would you guys recommend I outfit the rest of my wolfguard?


For the record, my starting army at this point

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Rune Priest
-stuff

4x Wolf Guard
--Combi-melta, Powerfist (scouts)
--?
--?
--?
5x Wolf Scouts
----2x Power Weapon, Meltagun

10x Grey Hunters with 2x Plasmagun and stuff
10x Grey Hunters with 2x Meltagun and stuff

6x Long Fangs, not sure about loadout yet

[BoSheck]

So, how would you guys recommend I outfit the rest of my wolfguard?


For the record, my starting army at this point

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Rune Priest
-stuff

4x Wolf Guard
--Combi-melta, Powerfist (scouts)
--?
--?
--?
5x Wolf Scouts
----2x Power Weapon, Meltagun

10x Grey Hunters with 2x Plasmagun and stuff
10x Grey Hunters with 2x Meltagun and stuff

6x Long Fangs, not sure about loadout yet

You are a foot list, then? I don't see any rhinos or such. This is fine. There's a couple of good philosophies for Wolf Guard. One is CCW/Bolt Pistol (cheap, good for filling the squad, takes bullets in long fang packs). The other is Combi-melta/bolt pistol (extra melta at a low cost). Combi-melta/Power Fist is also good, but if you've got cavalry mounted fists running around you don't need to worry so much about that. Your cavalry WILL get into melee first, barring drop pods.

For foot wolves I prefer Terminators with CMLs to go with Grey Hunter packs. More relentless missiles going at more boxes, spilling out their squishy insides. If you were going to give your Grey Hunters a fist anyway, put it on the wolf guard. Since Space wolves lack combat tactics, you may consider breaking (at least one of) your 10 mans down into smaller squads, for more objective squatting power.

The plasma gun guys, for instance, can't get maximum use out of plasma guns and power fists/wolf banners/motw (as they'll want to be rapid firing when in range) and things you want to rapid fire plasma guns into...well. You're welcome to try it out and see. Wolf banners are sweet. They say ALL rolls of 1 (armor saves!), but just don't forget to pop 'em.

This is all just my experience talking, and there's no single stone way to run Space Wolves--it's why they're a top army: tons of viable builds. I'm just telling you what I know and what I've found useful.

[Hawkfrost000]

So, how would you guys recommend I outfit the rest of my wolfguard?


For the record, my starting army at this point

Spoiler

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Rune Priest
-stuff

4x Wolf Guard
--Combi-melta, Powerfist (scouts)
--?
--?
--?
5x Wolf Scouts
----2x Power Weapon, Meltagun

10x Grey Hunters with 2x Plasmagun and stuff
10x Grey Hunters with 2x Meltagun and stuff

6x Long Fangs, not sure about loadout yet

For wolfguard it really depends on what you are doing with them. I agree with BoSheck that TDA is best in footslogging squads, in a mounted squad I would reccomend just giving him a Thunderhammer or powerfist. Alternatively you can use them as a group on their own with TDA, thunderhammers and storm shields as well as a few Cyclones.

I would recommend equipping the Longfangs with Missile Launchers, lascannons or a mix of the two. For this list I feel that the lascannons would synergise well with the rest of the list of you take the cyclones letting you pop transports and then hit the units with the cyclones.

DM

[evisiron]

I'm thinking about starting a mini army for an upcoming Tale of 4 Gamers type thing. My main armies have been Orks and Blood Angels, both heavily focused on getting the charge into combat, so I was hoping to head the opposite direction and go for extremely shooty.

Aside from IG (I can't stand that level of painting to a schedule), which army would you say is the shootiest? Can Necrons pump out enough shots to be considered?

[Cheesegear]

Aside from IG (I can't stand that level of painting to a schedule), which army would you say is the shootiest?

Grey Knights.

If that doesn't appeal to you for some reason, the 'mini army' probably means that you're short on points so GKs probably aren't ideal. Try Dark Eldar.

Warriors (x5) - 115 Points
Blaster
+ Venom

People can (and do) spam that all day. Remember that the Venom comes with a free Flickerfield so all your vehicles have Invulnerable saves as well. Ravagers in the Heavy Slot dominate the game (especially with 3), and can be made to suit one role or the other...Or Razorwings that do everything for +30 points.

Then, because Warriors come in boxes of 10, and you don't really want to see that Dark Lance go to waste...

Trueborn (x3) - 141 Points
x2 Dark Lances
+ Venom

Yes. 3 Models. The Venom just runs around shooting stuff that comes out of transports. It's ridiculous. If exploiting the Codex doesn't appeal to you.

Scourges (x5) - 134/140 Points
x2 [Heat/Dark] Lances

Roughly same points cost, but you lose a Venom. Easier to get parts for since you're not cracking open two seperate boxes for Dark Lances. More Wounds, and Shardcarbines for a little bit of extra anti-Infantry power.

...Dark Eldar pump out a lot of shooting for very little points. Both anti-infantry and anti-vehicle at the same time. The upside - as opposed to Tau and Imperial Guard - is that for very little investment, you can make your units very Assault capable too. Even your base Warriors have I5. Or just take Wyches.

Otherwise Necrons. But their strategy is kind of different. Pump out a lot of shots and hope one of them glances a vehicle. And with enough Glances you can render a vehicle useless and even destroyed.

So, yeah. Grey Knights, Dark Eldar or Necrons.

[BoSheck]

For wolfguard it really depends on what you are doing with them. I agree with BoSheck that TDA is best in footslogging squads, in a mounted squad I would reccomend just giving him a Thunderhammer or powerfist. Alternatively you can use them as a group on their own with TDA, thunderhammers and storm shields as well as a few Cyclones.

DM

I would note that hammernators en masse are not something you really do with Wolves, but throwing around 1 or two is never an issue--they're just too expensive to do up like DA or Marines.

[Squark]

So... Here's what I'm thinking Initial Space Wolves Army

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Rune Priest
-Chooser of the slain, other stuff.

Wolf Scouts x5 -? pts
-2x Power Sword, Meltagun, Mark of the Wulfen

Grey Hunters x5 -85 pts
-Plasma Gun

Grey Hunters x5 -85 pts
-Plasma Gun

Grey Hunters x10
- 2x Meltagun, Mark of the Wulfen, Drop Pod -205 pts

Expanding that army, phase 1

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Long Fangs x6*
-3x Missile Launchers, 2x Lascannons

Wolf Guard
--Combi-melta and Powerfist (Scout squad's wolf guard)
--Combi-melta and Powerfist (Melta Grey Hunter's wolf guard
--Powerfist and ? (Plasma Grey Hunter's wolf guard)
--Powerfist and ? (Plasma Grey Hunter's wolf guard

*1 of the Wolf Pack box will serve as the Sergent

[Teln]

Lone Wolves are a completely separate unit from Wolf Guard.

[Renegade Paladin]

Lone Wolves are a completely separate unit from Wolf Guard.

He knows. He's making one of the Wolf Guard Terminator models into a Lone Wolf.

[Hawkfrost000]

That looks pretty good Squark. One thing I would say is that if one of your Wolfguard is going to hang with your long fangs, which is... Less than optimal, you probably want to loose the powerfist and maybe the stormshield, as I can't see them doing too much.

[Squark]

The plasma gun guys, for instance, can't get maximum use out of plasma guns and power fists/wolf banners/motw (as they'll want to be rapid firing when in range) and things you want to rapid fire plasma guns into...well. You're welcome to try it out and see. Wolf banners are sweet. They say ALL rolls of 1 (armor saves!), but just don't forget to pop 'em.

Little confused here now. Are you saying that plasma guns on Grey Hunters are bad, or just that they don't mix well with Wolf Banners and Mark of the Wulfen?

@Darius Macab: My rationale there was using the Wolf Guard as ablative wounds for the wolf guard. IN retrospect, Terminators are probably too expensive to be doing duty as shield drones.

[Timberwolf]

Little confused here now. Are you saying that plasma guns on Grey Hunters are bad, or just that they don't mix well with Wolf Banners and Mark of the Wulfen?

What I think is he means is you can't assault and fire plasma guns, which is what MotW and Wolf banners are for. Sure you've got counter attack for when the other fellow comes to push your face in, but the other guy is also swinging his extra attack for charging so you will lose more than you would if you just assaulted after firing an assault weapon..

[Hawkfrost000]

@Darius Macab: My rationale there was using the Wolf Guard as ablative wounds for the wolf guard. IN retrospect, Terminators are probably too expensive to be doing duty as shield drones.

It does look like good synergy in a vacuum

But remember that your longfangs will probably be sitting in cover which is a 4+ save, only slightly worse than your wolf guards storm shield, and its free.

If you need ablative wounds for your longfangs then get more longfangs!

DM

[BoSheck]

Little confused here now. Are you saying that plasma guns on Grey Hunters are bad, or just that they don't mix well with Wolf Banners and Mark of the Wulfen?

@Darius Macab: My rationale there was using the Wolf Guard as ablative wounds for the wolf guard. IN retrospect, Terminators are probably too expensive to be doing duty as shield drones.

Bolded for emphasis.
And if you want wolf guard for ablative wounds in Long Fangs, those wolfguard need NO wargear, since they are the first thing that wounds get put on.