Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."

[Cheesegear]

I assume you're only talking about namby-pamby-goody-two-shoes-craftworld Space Elves

Yes. Dark Eldar are fine and perfectly serviceable and one of my favourite armies.

[Tychris1]

Alright so in a tournament of ours we've begun a few weeks ago the theme is "Creating special characters". You can create as many as you want but there is a limit to how many you can use in a game. I have, personally, dedicated myself to 1 hive tyrant dubbed The Lichlord. You can grant them bonuses as long as you win a game and the unit kills something. Some of the upgrades are:

+1 T
+1 WS
+1 BS
+1 S
+1 A
2x Rerolls (For ANYTHING, even the opponets rolls. Even reroll a reroll)
+1 Inch of Movement (I think for everything, assault, movement, and running)
+1 I

So far I have upgraded my Hive Tyrant to T9 and intend for him to go to T10. What comes afterwards I do not know. Which is why I come to you, what thing is the hive tyrant lacking that would make it better on this list? The Hive Tyrant is decked out with:

Armored Shell
Bonesword and Lashwip
HVC
Paroxysm/Leech Essence
Old Adversary/Hive Commander
2 Tyrant Guard

I really want to create a godlike tyrant

[Sila Prirode]

Of that list, rerolls, BS, S and T are the best. Initiative is also good to have. Extra movement won't do you (too) much good, WS is not really important point-wise (it doesn't do anything higher then 5 until it's 9 or 10), and extra Attacks on Hive Tyrant are not needed. BS will help with HVC, and extra S is always a good idea. Initiative 5 or 7, depends on what you are playing against. Rerolls can be too strong, depends on what you do with them (who goes first roll for example).
But honestly, Special Characters have special rules, this is just a nice bonus, like those Veteran units some people play with.

[Squark]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Lash whip make the Hive Tyrant's innitiative irrelevant?

[Sila Prirode]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Lash whip make the Hive Tyrant's innitiative irrelevant?

To be frank, I didn't even look at his loadout, I just assumed he has a Cannon. But yeah, in that case the Initiative is not needed.

[Squark]

Some of the upgrades are:

+1 T
+1 WS
+1 BS
+1 S
+1 A
2x Rerolls (For ANYTHING, even the opponets rolls. Even reroll a reroll)
+1 Inch of Movement (I think for everything, assault, movement, and running)
+1 I

Alright, let's go over things here

+1 T: More Toughness is always good. T6 is a particularly important number because it means no more instant death if you don't have eternal warrior, but being harder to kill is always good
+1 WS: Not worth it. Higher WS is not a huge deal beyond WS 5-6 (Which assures you'll hit most things on a 3+ that aren't equally scary in assault, and trying to out weapon skill these people is just not worth the effort. Spend the points elsewhere instead)
+1 S: Like Toughness, but inverted. S8 is particularly important because it's instant death to Marines
+1 BS: BS >5 is... Not great. Up until BS 6, each point of balistics skill increases your chance to hit by about 17%. Once you hit BS 6 and further, though, it will only go up by ~2.7% each time. So, getting to BS 5 is good, but don't waste points getting any higher. If you still need to hit more often, take those rerolls, or find some way to twin-link your guns.
+1 A: Ungh. I really don't know the mathhamer on an extra attack vs. +1 strength. In some situations one will be better than the other, and sometimes the other way around. Picking the correct choice will require a bit of statistics legwork to find out which is better when, and then identifying which situations are more common in your Metagame.
2x Rerolls: Per game? Per Game Turn? Per Player Turn? One time use only? It makes a difference, but this is still a really good option regardless. There are soo many things you want to re-roll when they go bad; Important Saves, Psychic tests (Can you reroll 1 die or both?), REanimation Protocols rolls, Magic Hat tests, etc. Per Game is pretty good, and what I suspect is the case. Per turn seems downright broken, while One time use seems risky but potentially still good.
+1 Inch of movement: If you're having trouble getting from place to place, use a bike, jump infantry, or cavalry. Don't waste points here.
+1 I: Situational. Obviously, going first is really good. But it's better for some armies than it is for others. NEcrons are never going to go first without sinking too many points. Things with Lash Whips don't need it. Really High Innitiatives are likewise going to be less useful. In general, I5-I6 is really good, because, you know, going first against Marines is wonderful. But you've got a lash whip, so you don't care about this.

ARe there any other upgrades? Can you change around the wargear on a unit and keep the bonus (For example, a unit which is performing particularly well might be granted special honors like better weapons and armor)?

[Tychris1]

Allow me to clear some things up. 2x rerolls is per game, not game turn. It ALS stacks so I can get 4x then 6x and so on and so forth. The rerolls also reroll both die in a psychic test.

Secondly there are no "points" for these upgrades. They are free, you get to upgrade once per game and can stack them to your hearts desire without paying extra points in your army. So long as I use a hive tyrant in my army he can be made into a "Lichlord" for free.

Lastly, speaking of points in your army there is a last upgrade I forgot to mention. +25 free points of wargear on a character (retinue count as wargear also). So technically you are right in that regard. I had intended to pump my HT up to T10 S10 then get 5BS and decide between +1 move, Attacks, or rerolls.

[Sila Prirode]

Lastly, speaking of points in your army there is a last upgrade I forgot to mention. +25 free points of wargear on a character (retinue count as wargear also). So technically you are right in that regard. I had intended to pump my HT up to T10 S10 then get 5BS and decide between +1 move, Attacks, or rerolls.

In my opinion, Squark said everything you need to know post before you, so I'm just going to add this: You don't need S10. S8 is fine, it get's you instant death on almost everything important, and it cracks vehicles (remember that you get 2d6 from being monstrous). So you can move that two "points" to rerolls. Honestly, if it was me, I would shoot for S8 T8, maaaybe BS5, and then throw everything else in rerolls. There was plenty of situations where everything depends on single roll, so having multiple rerolls floating around is like breaking the game.

[Squark]

Can you upgrade models? Or units? Because I shudder at the thought of something like a squad of T5 Canoptek Wraiths.

[Tychris1]

Yes, but you can only have so many special things out in certain games.

0-999 point games: 1 HQ or 1 Unit (Elite, Infantry, Fast Attack, Heavy)
1k-1.5k: 1 HQ and or 1 Unit
1.5k-2k: 1HQ and or 1 Unit and or 1 Unit (I think, I'll re check the rules on Thursday)

So you can have T6 Hormagaunts front lining BS10 Hive guard/Tyrannofex if you win enough games. So yeah, T5 Canoptek Wraiths are completely plausible.

[Squark]

In that case, I'd definately consider putting some of those upgrades into a death star type unit instead of all funneling them into one unit. T6 Purifiers or the like could do much more damage than a 5th set of rerolls on your HQ, for example.

[Tychris1]

Well I'm playing tyranids (and have no intention of abandoning them) so I am unsure of what death star unit I should pump the points into. I tried it with warriors but they kept gettin wiped while trying to kill stuff and lost their upgrades. Also, if the special unit/character dies then all of its upgrades are lost forever and you start from scratch.

[Elite_Lurker]

In that case, I'd definately consider putting some of those upgrades into a death star type unit instead of all funneling them into one unit. T6 Purifiers or the like could do much more damage than a 5th set of rerolls on your HQ, for example.

And then you win games with your T6 Purifiers, and grant them rerolls/BS/etc..

[Cheesegear]

Alright so in a tournament of ours we've begun a few weeks ago the theme is "Creating special characters". You can create as many as you want but there is a limit to how many you can use in a game. I have, personally, dedicated myself to 1 hive tyrant dubbed The Lichlord. You can grant them bonuses as long as you win a game and the unit kills something.

Personally, I'd go with a Warrior Prime. Why? Because Warriors he deploys with use his Weapon and Ballistic Skill. Crank him to BS5, put him in a unit of Warriors with Deathspitters. Laugh. Laugh a lot. Or boost him to S8 with a Bonesword and Lash Whip. T5 or T6 Warriors if you can get them are bananas.

T6 Warriors...*drool*

A Tervigon with re-rolls so it never poops too hard, or too soft.

[Trixie]

T6 is a particularly important number because it means no more instant death if you don't have eternal warrior, but being harder to kill is always good

Space Wolves, Dark Eldar, Grey Knights, Blood Angels and a few other armies would like to *cough* voice a polite disagreement.

I wonder if anyone remembers me, though :P

[Squark]

Space Wolves, Dark Eldar, Grey Knights, Blood Angels and a few other armies would like to *cough* voice a polite disagreement.

I wonder if anyone remembers me, though :P

Sorry, I was referring specifically to instant death because of strength values. Removed from the table and other stuff are still a concern, of course.

[BoSheck]

That also brings into question whether the unit would be T6(4) or just straightup T6. This is also most relevant with multiwound models, though negating high Strength Instant Death still has uses when you want FNP on your single wound squads. While tinkering with statlines like that is a fun idea, it changes the nature of the game and how some armies would play. MSU becomes less attractive (in those instances) and my mind is aflutter with thoughts of max size Boyz mobs or...dare I say it...Bloodclaws--nah. A 30-big squad of death company, though...

[golentan]

So, here's the thing. I've been considering plunging into 40k for some time now. I've known for some time that the only two armies which really appealed to me were the Tau and the Tyranids. I've finally decided I'm going to take it up, and as such have been doing a bit of research and sitting in on a couple of games. And I've decided that the tyranids more fit my play styles and aesthetic sense, so I'm going to take them up.

The thing is, picking up this (expensive) hobby is not in my budget for quite some time. I'm hoping to have the cash to pick up the codex in a month and finalize my plans for picking up models after then and only then, but until then I'm going on what I've been able to piece together from observation and internet research.

So, what I'm thinking of setting up for my army is primarily shooty Termagaunts, backed by Tervigons equipped to grant Feel No Pain and provide some anti-personnel ranged support. Helping this, I want to have some gene stealers to act as a utility outfielder, so to speak, harassing and keeping melee freaks off my back. Rounding it out, some biovores (which I hope can be equipped to provide some anti-armor capability.

Now, I am looking mostly to be a casual player and enjoy some KeKeKeKeKe fun without worrying overmuch about winning. But I'm wondering if there are any glaring flaws or faulty assumptions I've made. By which I mean, what are they (I'm sure I've made some) and what weaponry would be best to supply the 'gaunts and 'stealers to assist this strategy.

[Tome]

>Snip<

So, what I'm thinking of setting up for my army is primarily shooty Termagaunts, backed by Tervigons equipped to grant Feel No Pain and provide some anti-personnel ranged support. Helping this, I want to have some gene stealers to act as a utility outfielder, so to speak, harassing and keeping melee freaks off my back. Rounding it out, some biovores (which I hope can be equipped to provide some anti-armor capability.

Now, I am looking mostly to be a casual player and enjoy some KeKeKeKeKe fun without worrying overmuch about winning. But I'm wondering if there are any glaring flaws or faulty assumptions I've made. By which I mean, what are they (I'm sure I've made some) and what weaponry would be best to supply the 'gaunts and 'stealers to assist this strategy.

Your projected build sounds workable, except for the Biovores. Biovores are not anti-tank, they're anti-infantry, and pretty bad anti-infantry at that. I'd very strongly advise that you avoid them like the plague.

The actual anti-tank options in the Tyranid codex are, if I remember correctly:

• Hive Tyrant with Heavy Venom Cannon
• Hive Guard
• Zoanthropes
• Harpy with Heavy Venom Cannon
• Carnifex with Heavy Venom Cannon
• Tyrannofex with Rupture Cannon

Though not all of them are equally effective.

[BoSheck]

The thing is, picking up this (expensive) hobby is not in my budget for quite some time. I'm hoping to have the cash to pick up the codex in a month and finalize my plans for picking up models after then and only then, but until then I'm going on what I've been able to piece together from observation and internet research.

Ebay. Nids are a much maligned army, so people are probably pretty disenfranchised with them. Take advantage of the ragequits.

Also, listen to Tome. Nids biggest weakness is no ranged Anti-Tank. If you go with (shooty) Monstrous Creatures for armor hunting, I have seen a Venomthorpe do good work. I don't much them recommended, but I have played against them, and that cover save does a lot.

[Cheesegear]

The thing is, picking up this (expensive) hobby is not in my budget for quite some time. I'm hoping to have the cash to pick up the codex in a month and finalize my plans for picking up models after then and only then, but until then I'm going on what I've been able to piece together from observation and internet research.
[...]
So, what I'm thinking of setting up for my army is primarily shooty Termagaunts, backed by Tervigons equipped to grant Feel No Pain and provide some anti-personnel ranged support.

If you're on a budget, then Tervigons are absolutely the wrong choice. For each Tervigon, you want about 22 Termagants, minimum. That's two turns of rolling 11 and probably a double at that point. So, essentially, for every Tervigon, you need about two boxes of Termagants.

Best I've found is 96 Termagants for $180AU (AU~US these days) on eBay. You will need this.

Remember, those Termagants do not count towards your points. Which means you're buying models that don't actually get your army off the ground - which is a terrible idea for someone who is new. In fact, I'd stay away from Tyranids (and other horde armies) altogether if you're on a budget.

Now, I am looking mostly to be a casual player and enjoy some KeKeKeKeKe fun without worrying overmuch about winning. But I'm wondering if there are any glaring flaws or faulty assumptions I've made.

Look what I found.

Tervigon w/ Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs - 185
Tervigon w/ Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs - 185
Hive Guard - 50
Hive Guard - 50
Hive Guard - 50
Termagants - 50
Termagants - 50
Tervigon w/ Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs - 185
Tervigon w/ Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs - 185

990 Points.
On Turn 1, you'll need 64 Termagants. And then another 44 for Turn 2. So you'll want ~110 Termagants just to play 1000 points. After that you should hopefully be taking casualties (re-use models) and rolling doubles so you don't need so many after that.

To take it up to 1500, you could swap one of the Tervigons for Swarmlord and add in a brood of Genestealers.

This army crushes the 'casual' game. But, like I said in the link, as soon as your opponent starts putting a Lascannon in every slot and/or multiple meltaguns, this army turns not very good in a hurry.

[Trixie]

So, what I'm thinking of setting up for my army is primarily shooty Termagaunts, backed by Tervigons equipped to grant Feel No Pain and provide some anti-personnel ranged support. Helping this, I want to have some gene stealers to act as a utility outfielder, so to speak, harassing and keeping melee freaks off my back.

You won't fit both of them into the list, though. You either have a few Tervigons with hordes of Termagants, plus AT support, or 20-40 Genestealers. They offer little synergy so it's best to focus on one or the other, IMHO...

The actual anti-tank options in the Tyranid codex are, if I remember correctly:

• Hive Tyrant with Heavy Venom Cannon
• Hive Guard
• Zoanthropes
• Harpy with Heavy Venom Cannon
• Carnifex with Heavy Venom Cannon
• Tyrannofex with Rupture Cannon

Though not all of them are equally effective.

Most of these are really expensive both in $ and points things, though, so that list might have read:

• Hive Guard

Instead. Unless we're talking about 1750/2000 pts game...

[Tome]

Most of these are really expensive both in $ and points things, though, so that list might have read:

• Hive Guard

Instead. Unless we're talking about 1750/2000 pts game...

A Hive Guard Brood is 150 Points and costs £46.50. A Tyrannofex with a Rupture Cannon is 265 points and costs £35.00. An army that uses Tyrannofexes for it's anti-tank is actually cheaper than spending those same points on Hive Guard.

[golentan]

Hmm. To clarify, just because it's not in my budget in the short term does not mean I can't put forward some serious dough in the interest of having an army I'll feel good about.

I'd read this thread's tyranids guide, but I wanted to get an opinion on the specific idea. Now that I know that biovores can't play the role I want... Well, Carnifex/Tyrannofex could be fun.

Okay, thanks for the feedback guys.

[Trixie]

A Hive Guard Brood is 150 Points and costs £46.50. A Tyrannofex with a Rupture Cannon is 265 points and costs £35.00. An army that uses Tyrannofexes for it's anti-tank is actually cheaper than spending those same points on Hive Guard.

Exactly. That thing is 115 points more. For 265, you get basically what is worse Godhammer Land Raider with less guns. Remind me, how many Marines take these? And on top of that, instead of say, taking 2 Las/Plas 'backs (Hive Guard equivalent)?

I'm not saying T-Fex is very bad, but between 6 BS4 S8 shots that allow no cover save and have ridiculously easy cover save themselves, and 2 BS3 S10 shots (so, a big chance of no damage at all) that can be ID rather easy nowadays for 115 pts more... Pass, unless it's really a big game.

[Cheesegear]

Lists.

Blood Angels

Spoiler

Show

Dante - 225 Points

Librarian - 125 Points
Jump Pack, Shield, Sword

Sanguinary Priests (x2) - 180 Points
Jump Packs, Power Weapons

Sanguinary Guard - 260 Points
Chapter Banner, x2 Infernus Pistols, Power Fist

Sanguinary Guard - 230 Points
x2 Infernus Pistols, Power Fist

Sanguinary Guard - 230 Points
x2 Infernus Pistols, Power Fist

Total: 1250

Grey Knights

Spoiler

Show

Xenos Inquisitor - 75 Points
Combi-Flamer, Plasma Siphon
Rad and Psychotroke Grenades

Terminators (x10) - 495 Points
x2 Psycannons, x3 Swords, x2 Hammers, x4 Halberds
Brotherhood Banner, Psybolt Ammo

Terminators (x5) - 225 Points
Psycannon, x2 Swords, x2 Halberds, Hammer

Terminators (x5) - 225 Points
Psycannon, x2 Swords, x2 Halberds, Hammer

Strike Squad (x10) - 230 Points
x2 Psycannons
Justiciar; Hammer

Total: 1250

Pick your favourite.

[Renegade Paladin]

In the Grey Knights list, your ten Terminators have eleven special weapons.

[Trixie]

In the Grey Knights list, your ten Terminators have eleven special weapons.

Terminator Psycannon can be, in fact, wielded with one hand, and combined with GK melee upgrades.

Edit: Plus, it's technically 12 special weapons, Banner is one, too. Though, TBH, I don't see a point of flamer with psyammo GK army, especially seeing Inquisitor is best kept at the back?

And GK, of course.

[Ricky S]

Lists.

Blood Angels

Spoiler

Show

Dante - 225 Points

Librarian - 125 Points
Jump Pack, Shield, Sword

Sanguinary Priests (x2) - 180 Points
Jump Packs, Power Weapons

Sanguinary Guard - 260 Points
Chapter Banner, x2 Infernus Pistols, Power Fist

Sanguinary Guard - 230 Points
x2 Infernus Pistols, Power Fist

Sanguinary Guard - 230 Points
x2 Infernus Pistols, Power Fist

Total: 1250

Grey Knights

Spoiler

Show

Xenos Inquisitor - 75 Points
Combi-Flamer, Plasma Siphon
Rad and Psychotroke Grenades

Terminators (x10) - 495 Points
x2 Psycannons, x3 Swords, x2 Hammers, x4 Halberds
Brotherhood Banner, Psybolt Ammo

Terminators (x5) - 225 Points
Psycannon, x2 Swords, x2 Halberds, Hammer

Terminators (x5) - 225 Points
Psycannon, x2 Swords, x2 Halberds, Hammer

Strike Squad (x10) - 230 Points
x2 Psycannons
Justiciar; Hammer

Total: 1250

Pick your favourite.

Dante list for sure. But I like blood angels more than grey knights so its a moot point. What are the lists for?

[Cheesegear]

Though, TBH, I don't see a point of flamer with psyammo GK army, especially seeing Inquisitor is best kept at the back?

Because I had five points left at the end and a Flamer seemed like a better idea than a Melta?

Do you mean back of the board? Or back of the unit? Because the only thing that worries GKTs is Plasma, so he hangs around with the big unit so Plaserbacks can go away, and he needs to be in the unit, so when he charges the unit gets the benefit of the grenades. Then the XI should be Power Fisted in the face.

ION; Since you can chuck the XI in Power Armour I was thinking about chucking in a Deathwatch Captain in. But 8 points is really annoying to see and it's only for aesthetics anyway.

But I like blood angels more than grey knights so its a moot point. What are the lists for?

All the scrubs are gearing up for Conflict right now. And since I'm not allowed to actually go, I can at least get some kids ready by showing them a real army and playtesting what they'd need to beat it.
(Null Zone, for one)