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2012-04-04, 07:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
I'm a fan of the GK list, though that may be because it's actually pretty similar to the one I run.
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2012-04-04, 09:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
I'm more partial to the Blood Angels list, but I just like jumpers. Of the two, the GK list is far and away the better. But, to answer your request, my favorite is the Dante one.
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2012-04-04, 04:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
I like the GK list, it feels better rounded and you have more long range anti tank, which is always a selling point for me, especially in foot lists.
may i ask what these lists are for?
since we are doing 1250, could i trouble you guys to check this one out?
Chaos Space Marines
SpoilerDemon Prince
Mark of Slannesh, Wings
Lash of Slannesh
155
5 Chosen
4 Meltaguns
Rhino
165
8 Khorne Berzerkers
Skull Champion w Power Fist
Rhino
243
8 Khorne Berzerkers
Skull Champion w Power Fist
Rhino
243
5 Plague Marines
2 Plasmaguns
145
2 Obliterators
150
2 Obliterators
150
Its a pseudo Iron Warriors list, representing a group of assault specialists who storm the breaches that their brothers create.
Any thoughts?
DMThe Lords of Uncloaked Steel
"But iron - cold iron - is master of them all."
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2012-04-04, 06:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- In the Playground
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
If it's to teach people how to improve their game, I'd go Grey Knights. It is less of a one trick pony and highlights vital things to anticipate.
I know you are probably not looking for advice on list tweaking, but I would say that servo skulls are extremely valuable for a GK list with no transport, thanks to the safer deep striking.
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2012-04-04, 06:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
'More fun' is more important than 'better'. Just checking to see which one people like better, and whether or not there's anything wrong with it. Although at this stage I don't think there's ever anything wrong with my lists.
No worries.
SpoilerDemon Prince
Mark of Slannesh, Wings
Lash of Slannesh
155
Mark of Slaanesh, Wings (not Jump Pack)
Lash
Save 10 Points, and he can join a squad in a Rhino and not get shot to pieces instantly. You could also ditch the Wings (if you're in a Rhino, they're not really required) and save even more points.
5 Chosen
4 Meltaguns
Rhino
165
8 Khorne Berzerkers
Skull Champion w Power Fist
Rhino
243
8 Khorne Berzerkers
Skull Champion w Power Fist
Rhino
243
5 Plague Marines
2 Plasmaguns
145
2 Obliterators
150
2 Obliterators
150
Havocs (x5) - 155 Points
x4 Autocannons
The points cost is pretty close if you can spare the points somewhere. You've got no Icons anywhere so I assume you aren't trying to Deep Strike the Obliterators anytime soon, correct?
...and done.
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2012-04-04, 07:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
So remember that tournament list I posted earlier? Well, I've done a bit of testing over several games and come to some conclusions.
In terms of killing power, it's right up there. Durability is pretty good too. My mobility, however, is virtually none. I need something mobile.
I'm just not sure how to get that something mobile into my list.
Current List:
SpoilerHQ
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor - 94 Points
Mastery Level 1: Psychic Communion
Bolt Pistol, Force Sword, Psychotroke Grenades, Rad Grenades
+Servo-Skulls (x3)
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor - 91 Points
Mastery Level 1: Psychic Communion
Bolt Pistol, Force Sword, Psychotroke Grenades, Rad Grenades
+Servo-Skulls (x2)
ELITES
Vindicare Assassin - 145 Points
Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband (x11) - 80 Points
Psyker x6, Warrior Acolyte x5
Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband (x11) - 80 Points
Psyker x6, Warrior Acolyte x5
TROOPS
Grey Knight Terminator Squad (x10) - 495 Points
Brotherhood Banner, Nemesis Daemon Hammer x2, Nemesis Force Halberds x7, Psybolt Ammunition, Psycannon x2
Grey Knight Terminator Squad (x10) - 495 Points
Brotherhood Banner, Nemesis Daemon Hammer x2, Nemesis Force Halberds x7, Psybolt Ammunition, Psycannon x2
FAST ATTACK
HEAVY SUPPORT
Grey Knight Dreadnought - 135 Points
2x Twin-Linked Autocannon, Psybolt Ammunition
Grey Knight Dreadnought - 135 Points
2x Twin-Linked Autocannon, Psybolt Ammunition
I've got two ideas for how to get some mobility into my list. The first trims a lot of wargear, including some I'd like to keep, in exchange for a bare-bones Interceptor Squad. The second lets me keep the bulk of the wargear that I really want, while upgrading one of the Dreadnoughts into a Stormraven. The Stormraven can still kill tanks fairly reliably and makes a mobile element a lot more potent, but has fewer units in the list and I'm not too sure if a Multi-Melta to the rear armour is going to be as effective as a Psyrifleman Dreadnought - plus this requires me to go out and purchase a Stormraven. The Interceptors on the other hand, don't require me to remove any existing units, but I'm worried they might not be able to accomplish anything with only a bare-bones squad and some of the wargear I'm giving up might have a noticeable effect on how some units perform (IE the Inquisitors lack power weapons and the Henchmen don't have enough meatshields).
Interceptors:
SpoilerHQ
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor - 64 Points
Psychotroke Grenades, Rad Grenades
+Servo-Skulls (x3)
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor - 55 Points
Psychotroke Grenades, Rad Grenades
ELITES
Vindicare Assassin - 145 Points
Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband (x8) - 68 Points
Psyker x6, Warrior Acolyte x2
Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband (x8) - 68 Points
Psyker x6, Warrior Acolyte x2
TROOPS
Grey Knight Terminator Squad (x10) - 475 Points
Brotherhood Banner, Nemesis Daemon Hammer x2, Nemesis Force Halberds x7, Psycannon x2
Grey Knight Terminator Squad (x10) - 475 Points
Brotherhood Banner, Nemesis Daemon Hammer x2, Nemesis Force Halberds x7, Psycannon x2
FAST ATTACK
Grey Knight Interceptor Squad (x5) - 130 Points
HEAVY SUPPORT
Grey Knight Dreadnought - 135 Points
2x Twin-Linked Autocannon, Psybolt Ammunition
Grey Knight Dreadnought - 135 Points
2x Twin-Linked Autocannon, Psybolt Ammunition
Stormraven:
SpoilerHQ
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor - 74 Points
Bolt Pistol, Power Sword, Psychotroke Grenades, Rad Grenades, Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon
+Servo-Skulls (x3)
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor - 68 Points
Bolt Pistol, Power Sword, Psychotroke Grenades, Rad Grenades
+Servo-Skulls (x3)
ELITES
Vindicare Assassin - 145 Points
Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband (x10) - 76 Points
Psyker x6, Warrior Acolyte x4
Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband (x10) - 76 Points
Psyker x6, Warrior Acolyte x4
TROOPS
Grey Knight Terminator Squad (x10) - 475 Points
Brotherhood Banner, Nemesis Daemon Hammer x2, Nemesis Force Halberds x7, Psycannon x2
Grey Knight Terminator Squad (x10) - 475 Points
Brotherhood Banner, Nemesis Daemon Hammer x2, Nemesis Force Halberds x7, Psycannon x2
FAST ATTACK
Stormraven Gunship - 205 Points
Twin-Linked Multi-Melta, Twin-Linked Assault Cannon
HEAVY SUPPORT
Grey Knight Dreadnought - 135 Points
2x Twin-Linked Autocannon, Psybolt Ammunition
I'd really like some advice on which to go with, since I have to assemble and paint the appropriate models in about two weeks in order to be ready for the tournament. I am also open any other suggestions folks might have, though the core of the list is going to have to stay as two buffed terminator units + fire support, since that's what I've been practising with.
So please, any advice would be helpful.Last edited by Tome; 2012-04-04 at 07:43 PM.
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2012-04-04, 09:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
Blood Angels are really annoying, if that helps. I had a game against some yesterday, and a severely whittled down squad of Assault Marines with a Sanguinary Priest managed to take no unsaved lasgun wounds from a rapid fire range FRFSRF laser light show. 50 shots including three lascannons, 28 hits, 14 wounds, and only two kills, both from lascannons (which, not coincidentally, disallow armor saves and FNP). I killed most of them anyway, but every single kill was from AP2 and/or S8+.
Last edited by Renegade Paladin; 2012-04-04 at 09:11 PM.
"Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein
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2012-04-05, 03:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
Codex Eldar Part 1: HQ
SpoilerFarseer
Let's start at the top; non-Special character Eldar HQ units don't get better than the Farseer, when they're done properly. This is not necessarily a compliment. And by “properly" we mean "don't put them in any position where they have to fight something". Their stat-line and list of abilities should be a loud and clear warning that you are to use the guy for supporting the rest of your army, not being it's spearhead. Letting your opponent shoot at or - God forbid - get into close combat with your T3, A1 non-Eternal Warrior is Christmas come early for him.
- Runes of Warding: In most metagames, this upgrade is mandatory. It has no maximum range and doesn't require line of sight, so if it's not a nasty inconvenience for guys like Mephiston then it's completely shutting down entire armies like Grey Knights and quite a lot of Daemons and Tyranids.
- Runes of Witnessing: Not such a good idea - while it reduces yours chance of rolling double 6's, it also significantly increases your chance of double 1's, so you're not really improving anything. While the Ghost Helm will save you most of the time, if you're using a lot of powers it's generally safer just to rely on Ld10 doing all the hard work for you and then back it up with a Warlock with the Embolden power.
- Spirit Stones: Never to be used in conjunction with Runes of Witnessing, as your Farseer will eventually do himself more harm than good. That said, in smaller games where you can only make room for one Farseer it's extremely helpful to be able to use Guide and Fortune, or Guide and Doom, in the same turn. If you have more than one Farseer, however, you can usually get away with overlooking 'Stones for something else.
- Singing Spear: On paper, an important upgrade. Why not give him a s9 shot that doubles as a handy can-opener against tanks, for 3 measly points? The answer is, because your Farseer shouldn't be in any position to use it, that's why! If you're 12" away from the enemy, they *might* take one casualty, and then they are going to Assault you and you are going to die. Don't leave yourself open to temptation – if you want to kill one guy per shooting phase, Mind War him instead and make it count and then stab his buddies twice in the Assault phase.
- Jetbike: Expensive, and requires a lot of (also expensive) support, however when used right a Farseer on a Jetbike can be a game winner. Effectively, it means that you will never be out of range for Mind War and/or Doom. On a Jetbike with a bodyguard, is also the only place to genuinely consider taking a Singing Spear - you're fast enough to get away from threats of Assault while also fast enough to get within striking range in the first turn. If your Farseer is with Guardians, give him a 'Spear and he becomes their Tank Killer; if he's with anything else, don't bother as they probably have their own ways and means of doing the same thing, but better.
Psychic Powers
- Doom: No Farseer should leave home without it. Good range, and it can benefit anything in your army rather than a few units in specific situations. There are no circumstances that require you to NOT kill your enemies, so you might as well do it properly.
- Guide: Since you're not supposed to put your Farseer near the front line, this is a good power to give to him while he is lurking in cover, near your Heavy weapons. If you're not into that sort of thing and prefer a fast, close combat army, don't waste your points on re-rolling to hit with Shuriken Pistols.
- Mind War: Extremely useful, particularly on a Jetbike. Also known as 'Turn 1: Kill That Guy With A Lascannon, Or That Monstrous Creature Too Tough Or Far Away To Be Hurt By Shurikens'. Often a good way to deal with enemy Psychic Hoods, if you're feeling brave and want to risk a straight coin flip to see who wins. A lucky roll early on, however, will reap a great benefit over the next few turns.
- Eldritch Storm: Much better in the previous edition, when a vehicle used up it's movement to turn itself around on the spot. Nowadays all you're doing is risking a small chance that your enemy might be pinned (Rangers are better for this task) or an even smaller chance of exposing rear armour on an enemy vehicle for 1 turn. Too random, either way - avoid.
- Fortune: Combined with a unit that has high toughness or an invulnerable save - Warlocks, or Wraithguard, for example - Fortune ensures that they aren't going to die. In the case of Wraithguard, who are already 3+ and can be given 5++ with a nearby Warlock, ever. If your army is light on these sorts of units, or you have a play-style that requires lots of fast, light units, it's not so good. Re-rolling a 5+ save probably isn't going to help you as much as killing your opponent before he can shoot you, so in such a circumstance Doom is a better choice.
Warlock Bodyguard
You won't need very many before the squad gets extremely expensive, but they're one of precious few Eldar sources that have an invulnerable save. If your Farseer is riding a Jetbike, along with these guys such a unit has been known to stampede through a surprising number of Tournaments for their ability to soak up an impressive amount of fire-power and then kill whatever they reach in their own turn. On foot, they're not so hot due to low toughness and lack of Attacks/Power Weaponry. In a perfect world, Witchblades would be Force Weapons. Alas.....
- Jetbike: Farseer + Fortune + Jetbikes + Invulnerable Saves = extremely resilient, always able to get where you need them, and enough s9 attacks will kill anything quickly. Just try not to get carried away and take too many of them; you're going to be spending a hideously large amount of points on a none-scoring unit, so plan accordingly.
- Singing Spear: A given unit of Warlocks should contain one guy with the Enhance power, one guy with Embolden *IF* they're with a Farseer and everyone else with Destructor. Those two odd guys can take a Singing Spear in order to give themselves something to do in the Shooting phase and to crack Tanks if you find that you have fallen short/haven't already given one to the Farseer. Also as with the Farseer entry, you're better off having more attacks in Assault than one and a short ranged shooting attack.
- Wave Serpent: If you have a big unit of Warlocks, this is the slightly cheaper alternative to Jetbikes. Since a unit of Fortune'd Warlocks are one of the most likely things in the Codex to survive the turn after disembarking, and because Wave Serpents are so awesome (more on that later) this is not as unlikely as it sounds. Even so, taking a Wave Serpent with a Warlock bodyguard almost certainly means that you're also putting your Farseer on the front line, and inevitably on foot. THINK. VERY. CAREFULLY. About what you're about to do, before you do it.
- Spirit Seer: A Warlock Bodyguard doesn't need this. If you're crazy about Wraithguard then they can have their own private Warlock, and there's enough other places to put a single Spirit Seer within range of a Wraithlord that you won't have two of your most expensive units within range of a single artillery barrage.
Psychic Powers
- Conceal: Useful for an individual Warlock that is attached to a unit of Troops, virtually useless in a Bodyguard who already have 3+/4++.
- Enhance: At least 1 member of the Bodyguard unit should always have this power. You only need 1, and (Vindicare/enemy Mind War antics aside) he should be the last person to die.
- Embolden: Your Farseer hasn't taken Runes of Witnessing. A Farseer can join a unit of Warlocks. Psychic powers are "a normal leadership test". See what I'm getting at? (Cheat code: Take 1 guy with this power if a Farseer has joined the unit, and save yourself the price of a set of more dangerous Runes of Warding). Certainly, don't take Embolden and Runes of Warding – if you're regularly rolling 3d6, picking the lowest 2 and finding that you need a re-roll, your money would be better spent on new dice, than new models......
- Destructor: Everyone who doesn't have [i]Embolden[i] or Enhance, should a) always have this instead (on foot) or b) probably have it anyway (if mounted on Jetbikes). Twin-Linked Shuriken Catapults are usually "okay", Destructor can sometimes be "great", so take your pick depending on what you're going to do with them.
Autarch
If you prefer a more aggressive play style, or want to use lots of the more exotic Eldar units, then an Autarch is the man for you. A respectable stat-line and not a bad cost, though again he's let down by a paltry T3. If you hadn't noticed, this is going to be a reoccurring - and depressing - theme.
- Master Strategist: Manipulating the Reserves roll can be crucial to the success of an army that relies on lots of Reserves, especially if it has a very heavy Swooping Hawk theme as the bonus stacks if you have more than one Autarch and are intending to Skyleap a lot. I wouldn't complain too loud since on such a cheap model you're getting it for "free", but there are better abilities that he could have had in an ideal world.
- Haywire Grenades: Oooh, shiny! Again they're "free", and you never know when a Tank Shock is going to come out of no-where. Don't rely on them to be your only source of Tank Killing, if you're building a Tank Killer Autarch though - 1/6 is not good odds, especially when Fusion Guns are cheap, plentiful and just better.
Now, choosing equipment for your Autarch is going to rely incredibly heavily on what he is expected to do in your army - there's no point in giving him a Laser Lance and a Jetbike if there are no other Jetbikes in your army, for example - he's just going to be shot to bits. Similarly, even with WS6, a (s3!) power weapon and a 4++ save, sending him into a melee solo will not end well.
The idea, instead, is to pick a unit for him to accompany and equip him appropriately - the following are just guidelines for what to do when you have made that choice:
- Swooping Hawk Wings: ….Are NOT interchangeable with a Jump Generator, although Master Strategist only requires the Autarch to be alive - not necessarily on the table - for Sky Leaping shenanigans.
- Warp Jump Generator: ….Is NOT interchangeable with Hawk Wings, if you want to use the Warp Jump feature. Which you should NEVER, EVER do without first being attached to a unit of Warp Spiders, because Instant-Death-No-Save on your Autarch really isn't funny.
Quite frankly, the Autarch doesn't need either of these things, with the sole exception of having him join the appropriate squad. Between the two, he does more for 'Hawks than 'Spiders, but you'd need a pretty spectacular plan in mind to invest so much in such a hit-or-miss unit. - Jet Bike: You don't give an Autarch a Jetbike so that he can join a unit of Shining Spears - they really don't need his help. No; you do it so that he can take a Reaper Launcher and be Relentless with it. Or occasionally, if he's hanging out with Jetbike Guardians, a Fusion Gun so that he can be there as the “I-Kill-Tanks” guy.
- Banshee Mask: Your Autarch is already I6 and has both types of grenades, so there aren't many times when he won't be going first anyway. Generally he's better off with.....
- Mandiblasters: What's that? A5 (+1 on the charge), probably with a Power Weapon at I6 and WS6? Okay, you're only s3, but that's still pretty funny.
- Power Weapon: See above. Lots of attacks with a Power Weapon is hilarious.
- Scorpion Chainsword: A reasonable alternative; most things in the game are T4-ish, so being s4 in response can be very helpful. Still, all things considered, rather than risk your opponent getting any save your best plan is to take a Power Weapon and then Doom your target so that s3 isn't such an issue any more.
- Laser Lance: An expensive option, since it requires a Jetbike to pull off, and there are limited places that it'll get used. Guardian Jetbikes don't want to be in Assault and will be a death sentence to any Autarch stuck with them if that happens regardless of what weapon the Autarch has; Warlock Bodyguards don't need the added expense; and Shining Spears can generally be relied upon to get the job done on their own. Generally speaking, an Autarch on a Jetbike has better things to do, and better places to be.
- Avenger Shuriken Catapult: Bargain basement. Take this is you're in an incredibly low-points game and for some reason are desperate to fill your HQ slot because you don't have a Farseer model. While not a bad weapon per-say, almost anything else is a more optimised choice.
- Death-Spinner: Not a fan. Why take s6 AP-, when the s8 AP1 Fusion Gun will do exactly the same job, more reliably, and also against more heavily armoured opponents? Speaking of which......
- Fusion Gun: Give this to an Autarch with either 'Wings or a Jump Generator, and he becomes a very useful problem solver. Just remember to give him a bodyguard, otherwise he will instead become a priority target.
- Lasblaster: No, thanks. It might be cheaper than an Avenger Catapult, but it's also not as good. No one is intimidated by s3 AP5, especially when it sarcastically leaves you in range for s4 AP5 Boltguns to retaliate.
- Reaper Launcher: Highly recommended if you're on a Jetbike. Never to be used on foot - the Autarch can do far, far more interesting things than babysit a squad of Dark Reapers.
The Avatar of Khaine
"TAK" to his friends, the Avatar is - of all the units in the Codex - one of the most debated. On the one hand, he's a Monstrous Creature who is outright immune to two varieties of weapon (unique throughout the rest of the game, almost) and is something of a close combat powerhouse. On the other, he's an otherwise fairly vanilla Monstrous Creature and as such comes with most of the usual drawbacks, and he doesn't really offer very much in the way of synergy to the rest of your army.
On the plus side, he has no wargear options at all, so if you're lazy you can just throw him in as-is and just forget about it.
- Daemon: Note the wording of the rule; the Avatar is "affected by weapons and abilities that affect Daemons", so that means he is easy prey for Grey Knight armies. Similarly it doesn't say that he GAINS the abilities usually associated with Daemons, and as such is not an Eternal Warrior. Which, despite T6 and 4++, sucks thanks to the abundance of Force Weapons out there nowadays.
- Inspiring: Fearless isn't so great. That TAK can't ride in a transport, Deep Strike or Infiltrate - like nearly all other Assault orientated Eldar units can - means that all this usually does is stop the occasional unit of Guardians from running away, and is mostly several turns away from being used by someone that really needs it in a tricky Assault.
- Molten Body: Thanks to the errata, this rule applies to pretty much anything with the "Melta" rule or that has the word "Flame" or "Fire" in it's name or description. Which is pretty cool. It does not, however, do anything against Krak Missiles or Lascannons, which are far more likely to be pointed at such a big target that has no choice but to just footslog forward and suck it up.
"High explosives and anti-tank weaponry? Curse you, meddling kids - my only weaknesses!"
~ TAK (Attributed)
All in all..... In close combat he will break almost anything and then go looking for more. The hard part is getting him there in one piece, and if you're drawn in a Tournament against Grey Knights, Imperial Guard or almost any Space Wolf player with half a brain then you may well just give him up for dead. Use him at your own risk, preferably in a casual environment.
HQ Diagnosis: Two Farseers with Runes of Warding and sharing Doom, Guide and Fortune between them - plus Mind War if you're feeling sassy – will solve an impressively large number of problems regardless of what else you take. Take an Autarch if you really, really want to Deep Strike lots of stuff, but fully expect him to get one-shot'ed soon after arriving.
Have fun.
On a related note, more people ought to try writing one of these. I'm *nearly* halfway through the Codex and it's hard work. You guys should have more respect for the amount of work that Cheesegear has put into writing the other 4 of these!Last edited by Wraith; 2012-04-05 at 03:56 PM.
~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
RPG Characters What I Done Played As (Explained Badly)
17 Things I Learned About 40k By Playing Dark Heresy
Tales of a Role-Play Gamer - Horrible Optimisation
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2012-04-05, 04:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
Nice. Doom/Fortune is the combo I'm most familiar with on Farseers. I suppose I could try a second write up for the Space Wolves, but I'm not sure I have the expertise to write it.
Last edited by Squark; 2012-04-05 at 04:21 PM.
Steam ID: The Great Squark
3ds Friend Code: 4571-1588-1000
Currently Playing: Warhammer 40000, Hades, Stellaris, Warframe
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2012-04-05, 04:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
Do it. You'd be surprised how much you know about your army, when you make yourself sit down and really think about it.
Case in point: Singing Spears. I used to take them on everyone just out of habit, because, hey, s9 shooting attacks are big and clever, right? Well, no, not really, compared to everything else that I never really looked at because I was too busy making 'Krull' references.
Also, there are precious few situations that will make me sit and work out probabilities of dice rolls, and less so when I manage to prove to myself that everything I had first assumed, was a lie. Runes of Witnessing did that to me, and I will hate them forever for it.
Coming soon(ish): Elites. Coming after that: Troops & Transport, Fast Attack, Heavy, Special Characters & Craftworld Archtype Lists.Last edited by Wraith; 2012-04-05 at 04:43 PM.
~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
RPG Characters What I Done Played As (Explained Badly)
17 Things I Learned About 40k By Playing Dark Heresy
Tales of a Role-Play Gamer - Horrible Optimisation
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2012-04-05, 09:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
So, if nobody minds, here's my somewhat more longwinded musing on the Space Wolves HQ slots. Special thanks to Cheesegear, since I used his existing guide as a basis for this one.
Space Wolves Part 1: HQ and Special Rules
Special Rules:SpoilerCounter Attack: No one likes to be charged. But with Counter Attack, Space wolves can pull of defensive tactics much more effectively than other armies. Of course you shouldn't forget to charge when the situation warrants it. After all, when you are charged, both sides are getting an extra attack. But if you do the charging, you're the only one getting an extra attack. Also Furious charge is painful, and by charging things with Furious charge, you save yourself a lot of hurt.
Acute Senses: Night fighting rules are a pain for shooting armies. This makes them... less painful. Nice, but not an enormous boost.
And They Shall Know No Fear: Falling back for some armies is basically a death sentence. For Space Marines like you, it really isn't.
HQ
Remember that Space Wolves can take 2 HQ units for each HQ slot in their FO table, BUT each unit must have a different war gear setup (and selection of psychic powers). This includes making giving Battle Leaders and Wolf Lords different loadouts; Simply being a different unit is not enough.
SpoilerWolf Lord
Wolf Lords are the Big Cheese in the Space Wolves. Each one of them is in charge of over 100 Space Wolves, and they didn't get that position by sitting on their backsides and feasting. Comes with a really awesome statline, but lacking an invulnerable save as a base unit hurts, badly. For ablative wounds purposes, 2 Fenrisian wolves come fairly cheap, and you can also use them to get around Leaders of the Pack if you're feeling like taking multiple Wolf Lords. Wargear wise, you have access to a wide range of options. Make sure not to pay too much for him, though; It’s incredibly easy to put him over 200 pts. You can drop 30 points and get a Wolf Guard Battle Leader instead, which may be the right choice.
Wargear of noteSpoiler-Frost Weapon: Power weapon that increases your strength by 1. You don't have the +2 strength from a Relic Blade like Codex Marines, but the frost blade still gets an extra attack from extra close combat weapons, so it balances out.
-Wolf Claws: Better Lightning Claws that allow you to choose to reroll your attacks or to wound. Picking the best option requires a good head for math, though.
-Mark of the Wulfen: Anyone who takes this on an independent character is probably going for maximum “wolf points”. Such lists are not intended for serious play.
-Belt of Russ: A 4+ Invulnerable save. At its cost, you should probably pay 5 more points and take a storm shield instead unless you really need your other hand.
-Thunderwolf mount: If you want to boost the leadership of your Fenrisian wolves or Thunderwolf Cavalry, this is what you want (Not Canis Wulfborn). Plus, being S5 T5 rending cavalry with 5 attacks base is always awesome. Really, Really Awesome.
-Fenrisian Wolves: 2 ablative wounds, or a way to get around Leaders of the Pack
-Wolftooth Necklace: Ensures you will always hit things accurately. Very good, but things are going to get expensive.
-Wolftail Talisman: Since your psychic hood is slightly worse than those of other Space Marine armies, you have another set of psychic defenses. Definitely worth taking.
-Saga of the Beastslayer: Criminally cheap. Preferred enemy (Toughness >4 and Walkers) for the price of a fenrisian wolf is fantastic. Plus, it also works with Shooting attacks.
-Saga of Majesty: Your army is LD 9 pretty much all around. You don’t need to reroll.
-Saga of the Wolfkin: If you must take this, take Canis Wulfborn instead.
-Saga of the Warrior Born: Requires some bookkeeping. But with a good close combat weapon, you should be able to mow down just about anything.
-Saga of the Bear: Eternal Warrior is good. Very, very good. And appropriately expensive.
Rune Priest
The Space wolves’ Psyker is a fantastic value. At 100 points base, you have a respectable stat line and a slightly less effective psychic hood (Specifically, the Runic Weapon always has a 50% chance of cancelling a psychic power, while a psychic hood has a greater chance of cancelling psychic powers used by lower leadership psykers), but your psychic powers are excellent. Wounding demons on a 2+ is a nice perk, but not always relevant. Murderous Hurricane, Living Lightning, and Jaws of the World Wolf are your best choices for psychic powers.
Psychic Powers
Spoiler-Thunderclap: Well… At least it doesn’t scatter. That’s a plus, I guess. Still firing blast templates at point blank, even if they don’t hit your allies, is not a good way to hit things.
-Living Lightning: Imagine an Autocannon with d6 shots. Living Lightning is that, but with infinite range. And it counts as an assault weapon!
-Storm Caller: If you must become a Master of Runes (Not necessarily good), this is probably the best second power, given that all the other good powers are shooting attacks.
-Tempest’s Wrath: Hoses Deep striking, and stuff that flies. If you know you are going to be facing a lot of jetbikes, jump infantry, skimmers, or deepstrikers, this isn’t that bad, but Murderous Hurricane is an equally good source of dangerous terrain if you only need to hit one thing, and actually kills stuff (and works on everything). Another choice for Master of runes.
-Fury of the Wolf Spirits: It’s cool, flavorful, and… not good. The selling point was supposed to be the morale check, I think, but most armies sport LD 9 or higher these days.
-Murderous Hurricane: An excellent power for dealing with horde armies or stuff that really don’t like dangerous terrain. Bizarrely, you only actually need to roll to hit once. Strange, I know.
-Jaws of the World Wolf: You have to roll to it the first target only. Strange, I know. Still, things that remove specific models from the board without a save are always good, especially those that hit multiple models.
Wargear of note:
Spoiler-Master of Runes: Crazy expensive. But if you must use 2 psychic powers a turn…
-Chooser of the Slain: +1 BS if it has LoS to your target and infiltration denial is very, very good.
-Wolf Tail Talisman: More Psychic defense is always good.
-Saga of the Beastslayer: Preferred enemy against stuff you really want to use your force weapon on, and makes Murderous Hurricane usable against T5+
-Saga of the Warrior Born: You don’t get many attacks in close combat. Probably not worth the points.
Wolf Priest
Space Wolves decided to combine the role of Chaplain and Apothecary into one person. You and your squad will get Preferred enemy against a unit type of your choice (chosen after you know who you’re going to be fighting. Unless you’re fighting the odd biker army, you’re going to say infantry 95% of the time. And remember, this will work even on the turns after your charge, unlike a Chaplain), and your entire squad is fearless. On a plus side, Wolf Priests don’t need much in the way of wargear (and indeed, there’s not much to put on them). Notably, you have access to the Saga of the Hunter: allowing you to outflank the unit they’re joined with, and you have stealth. Sure, terminator Wolf Priests can’t take it, but frankly, Wolf Priests don’t need terminator armor. Relentless is not worth the loss of sweeping assaults and trading your pistol’s extra attack, so if you want a 2+ save, take Runic armor instead. Beyond that, melta bombs and maybe a wolf tail talisman are all you really want unless you’re traveling with Skyclaws or Swiftclaws. You don’t really need anything else.
Wolf Guard Battle Leaders
30 points cheaper than the Wolf Lord, Battle Leaders are particularly impressive Wolf Guard who are put in charge of individual battles by their Wolf Lord. You can’t take a Belt of Russ, the Saga of Majesty or Saga of the Bear, but those aren’t great either when you’re going for a cheap HQ. You do, however, have access to the Saga of the Hunter. Definitely a better choice than the Wolf Lord in low point games, but then, you probably want a Wolf Priest or Rune Priest, simply because they do more with less wargear (and thus, fewer points)
Special Characters
SpoilerLogan Grimnar: At only 35 more points than a comparable Wolf Lord (Although a regular Wolf Lord can’t take two sagas, while Logan effectively has the Saga of the bear in addition to his Saga of Majesty), Logan has more attacks, the ability to choose between a frost axe and a power fist when attacking, and has some nice force multiplying abilities. He also makes Wolf Guard Troop choices, although Wolf Guard Terminators can’t actually pull off a Deathwing style army because both the Great Wolf and Deathwing-grade therminators are far more expensive than their Dark Angels equivilent. Overall, a decent choice, but at 275 points, he’s all but unusable in low point games.
Njal Stormcaller: A Master of Runes with a better Runic Weapon, the Saga of Majesty, Every psycic power in the book, and a special storm based power that’s kind of random. You’re paying 60 more points than the equivalent Rune Priest, for access to a few more psychic powers, a gimmicky defensive trick with his chooser of the slain, and an unpredictable storm with a lot of neat effects like reducing enemy BS, difficult terrain around him, Powerful Lightning/Tornado strikes, and scaring things that got too close (Only 1 effect at a time, mind you). Certainly a decent choice, but he's a big investment, so protect him. He’s undeniably cool, though. He can also get a nifty upgrade for his terminator armor that will give him a 4+ invul save, which you probably want, considering his terminator model is infinitely better looking than his original, power armored model.
Ragnar Blackmane: 35 points over the cost of a comparable wolf lord. He boosts the charging abilities of his unit, and can take two slightly superior versions of normal Fenrisian wolves. Good for an aggressive army.
Ulrik the Slayer: Blech. While he may not have spent many more points on wargear than most Wolf Priests do, he spent it on all the wrong items. Also, his version of oath of war doesn't work on the stuff you really want it to (infantry), and even then, every single person in his unit has to allocate attacks to the "Beast" for anyone at all to get it (So I suppose the Wolftooth necklace is actually necessary for once). You also get to give another model +1 WS, A super-Saga of Majesty, and enemy independent characters have to pass leadership tests to allocate attacks to him , and if they fail, they sit there looking stupid. Ungh. So much useless crap.
Canis Wolfborn: Remember, he’s a battle leader, not a Wolf Lord, and not a great tactician at that, so his leadership is actually lower than normal. On the other hand, you’ve got more attacks and an extra wound, at the cost of a few points of BS you have no use for. On your mutant third hand (Die, mutant, die!), he’s the same price in points as a battle leader kitted out like him, once you factor in his saga (That regular Battle Leaders can't take, mind you. So, the new stuff. Your already better Fenrisian wolves can use his leadership when they’re close, and they’re troop choices (that still don’t score, before you ask). To top it off, he gets additional attacks when he’s surrounded. He’d be completely amazing if he had an invulnerable save and/or eternal warrior. He has neither, so he’s a niche unit for making Fenrisian wolves better.
Bjorn the Fell-Handed: 75 points more expensive than an equivalent Venerable Dreadnaught, although he gets cheaper Plasma Cannons and Twin-Linked Lascannon mods than a regular Venerable Dreadnaught would. 75 points is a lot to make up for. What do you get? +1 BS, WS, S, FA, 2 more attacks, but you’ll lose a point of initiative. You also get a 5+ invul, can re-roll the die to see who goes first, and if he dies, he becomes an objective and your space wolves are fearless for the rest of the game. If you’re playing kill points, though, you’ll lose up to 3 more kill points if someone isn’t in base contact with him. Shame on you for letting the Imperium’s oldest warrior fall in battle! In all seriousness, though, probably too expensive.Last edited by Squark; 2012-04-07 at 05:59 PM. Reason: Organization, feedback
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2012-04-05, 11:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
But a Farseer comes after the Autarch. How is that the top?
Runes of Witnessing: [...] it also significantly increases your chance of double 1's
Autarch
- Jet Bike: You don't give an Autarch a Jetbike so that he can join a unit of Shining Spears - they really don't need his help. [...] he's hanging out with Jetbike Guardians, a Fusion Gun so that he can be there as the “I-Kill-Tanks” guy.
- Laser Lance: An expensive option, since it requires a Jetbike to pull off, and there are limited places that it'll get used. Guardian Jetbikes don't want to be in Assault and will be a death sentence to any Autarch stuck with them if that happens regardless of what weapon the Autarch has; Warlock Bodyguards don't need the added expense; and Shining Spears can generally be relied upon to get the job done on their own. Generally speaking, an Autarch on a Jetbike has better things to do, and better places to be.
Also, the Autarch is S6 on the charge with the Laser Lance. Also, why not have both? You can have the Laser Lance and the Reaper Launcher, and it doesn't even get rid of the pistol which means you keep your extra attack. This is awesome. Also remember, that the Autarch benefits from Exarch powers depending on the squad he's in. Should you be mentioning that now, or later in the proper unit's entries and how the addition of an Autarch benefits the unit or the IC more?
The Avatar of Khaine
Molten Body: [...] It does not, however, do anything against Krak Missiles or Lascannons, which are far more likely to be pointed at such a big target that has no choice but to just footslog forward and suck it up.
You guys should have more respect for the amount of work that Cheesegear has put into writing the other 4 of these!
The only reason I haven't fully done any of the Marine Codecies is because they're mostly all the same and everyone knows them by now. But, don't let that stop you. I keep noticing that this thread has only 500 responses, and over 17,000 views. So I know there are lurkers and guests reading this thread. If only for the OP and the links it provides.
So, rock, rock on!
Space Wolves Part 1:
Consider adding more Bold or Italic tags. A few more line breaks wouldn't hurt either.
Frost Weapon: Think relic blade, but you trade a point of strength for getting an extra attack form your pistol. Which is better ultimately will vary according to who you’re fighting.
Belt of Russ: Your version of the Iron Halo.
Thunderwolf mount: If you want to boost the leadership of your Fenrisian wolves or Thunderwolf Cavalry, this is what you want.
Rune Priest
The Space wolves’ version of a Space Marine Librarian is a fantastic value.
Wolf Guard Battle Leaders
Definitely a better choice than the Wolf Lord in low point games, but then, you probably want a Wolf Priest or Rune Priest.
Njal Stormcaller: A Master of Runes with a better Runic Weapon, the Saga of Majesty, Every psycic power in the book, and a special storm based power that’s kind of random. You’re paying 60 more points than the equivalent Rune Priest, for access to a few more psychic powers, a gimmicky defensive trick with his chooser of the slain, and an unreliable storm thing that will stop working once Njal bites it. I have better things to spend points on, personally.
Ulrik the Slayer: [...] An excellent choice.
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2012-04-06, 12:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
I have written the HQ Choices in order of how good I think they are, otherwise (if I were doing it in Codex order) the Avatar would come first.
Honestly, I thought that was more obvious. No worries - that's your answer. Not top as in "first", top as in "best".
The bits in bold confuse me. Where is the Autarch on Jetbike supposed to go, if not with Shining Spears, Jet Councils or Guardian Bikes?
Whatever other lessons you should take from what I've written about Autarchs, I hope people can tell that I don't think that it's a very good idea to put them on a Jetbike, unlike Farseers. As much as I like Reaper Launchers, then unless you're determined to create a Saim-Hann list it's a lot of effort for too little payoff.
Also, the Autarch is S6 on the charge with the Laser Lance. Also, why not have both?
I'd also consider that, although Laser Lances strike at Initiative order (which is REALLY awesome) they're still only s6. They can't reliably crack tanks, and they can't inflict Instant Death on anything other than Imperial Guard and Dark Eldar - and Autarchs probably shouldn't be encouraged to Assault Dark Eldar characters.
And neither can Reaper Launchers, for that matter. While it's a fantastic unit for slaughtering Space Marines and even Terminators, I like my Autarch to be more than a one-trick pony in the same way I don't like to give a Fusion Gun to my Fire Dragon Exarch.
Should you be mentioning that now, or later in the proper unit's entries and how the addition of an Autarch benefits the unit or the IC more?~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
RPG Characters What I Done Played As (Explained Badly)
17 Things I Learned About 40k By Playing Dark Heresy
Tales of a Role-Play Gamer - Horrible Optimisation
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2012-04-06, 05:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
Okay, Eldar are not my forté, I just crush them a lot. But, from what I gather (and that means it wasn't obvious, for example, go back over my Tyranid guide and try and work out if Lash Whips go on a Hive Tyrant.), an Autarch is;
Autarch - 100 Points
Mandiblasters, Power Weapon, Fusion Gun
Wings optional. For 100 points he actually seems quite solid. Especially because he also brings Reserves manipulation. I just can't figure out where he goes. Howling Banshees maybe? More likely Dire Avengers because who takes Banshees? But I expect that to be explained later.
"Because it's hidiously expensive" is probably the best answer that I have for you.
Autarch - 155 Points
Mandiblasters, Laser Lance, Reaper Launcher
Jetbike
...costs the same as Yriel. I know which I'd prefer.
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2012-04-06, 07:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
SpoilerBossing Around Mad Cats for Fun and Profit: Let's Play MechCommander 2!
Kicking this LP into overdrive: Let's Play StarCraft 2!
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2012-04-07, 03:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
"What's in this empty box ?"
"Youth and talent is no match for age and treachery."
Mechwarrior by Elder Tsofu
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2012-04-07, 06:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
With all this talk of codex reviews, I'll give the tau codex a shot. I'll try to be as comprehensive as possible.
Onto a completely different subject. My friends have been refusing to play against my space wolf army (read as: thunderwolf cavalry army). Because apparently it is too OP. Im not even trying to run a powerful army I just chose what I thought was cool which was thunder wolves. The grey hunters I had to take for troops choices and the wolf scouts are simply to stop people from hiding in buildings.
Would you consider this list OP? Because I really dont.
-Wolf Lord, Thunderwolf, Runic Armour, Storm Shield, wolf claw
-Runepriest
-5 wolf scouts, power weapon
-5 wolf scouts, power weapon
-5 grey hunters, powerfist, plasma gun, lascannon razorback
-5 grey hunters, powerfist, plasma gun, lascannon razorback
-5 thunder wolves, 3x storm shield, thunder hammer, melta bomb, bolter
-3 thunder wolves, thunder hammer, storm shieldLillien Lemmerin:http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetvie...sheetid=111721
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2012-04-07, 07:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
The Avatar of Khaine
Molten Body: [...] It does not, however, do anything against Krak Missiles or Lascannons, which are far more likely to be pointed at such a big target that has no choice but to just footslog forward and suck it up.
...or Poison or Lance weapons which means Dark Eldar are killing him on the first turn every single game...and your little Wraithlords too!
Still doesnt mean that poison weapons isnt incredibly annoing for someone with lots of high T units.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2012-04-07, 08:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
Depending on your meta-game, it actually might be. It's not your fault for being too good. It's their fault for being too bad. Thunderwolves acutally isn't the best Wolf List around (although it's still pretty good).
-Wolf Lord, Thunderwolf, Runic Armour, Storm Shield, wolf claw
-Runepriest
-5 wolf scouts, power weapon
-5 wolf scouts, power weapon
-5 grey hunters, powerfist, plasma gun, lascannon razorback
-5 grey hunters, powerfist, plasma gun, lascannon razorback
-5 thunder wolves, 3x storm shield, thunder hammer, melta bomb, bolter
-3 thunder wolves, thunder hammer, storm shield
Rune Priest is standard.
Wolf Scouts aren't packing Meltaguns, so no.
Do the Grey Hunters have Plaserbacks? Or is that TL-Lascannons? No. In both cases. Blood Angels can do the same thing for cheaper, Grey Knights are doing exactly the same thing but better, etc.
Thunderwolves are tricky to deal with. Like I said, they are powerful. A guarenteed way to beat them is to play with more terrain, specifically, multi-storey buildings, and then invest in more shootyness. Shooty is the current dominance in the current meta. This list is not powerful because it isn't packing 18 Long Fangs, 3 Typhoons and Wolf Guard with Combi-Weapons and Cyclone-exploits.
...Doesn't even have Logan, Njal or Arjac. Which are typically staples of broken Wolf lists.
If your opponents aren't taking Null Zone and lots of Plasercannons, that's their fault. I assume somebody's playing Marines. Other options are 2+ saves and/or FNP. While not perfect, Rending isn't something I particularly care about against Infantry. Sanguinary Guard have a lot of high-strength Power Weapon attacks. Hammernators can hit back just as hard.
And Grey Knights will just Force Weapon your entire unit dead without even trying very hard. Get an IC to cast Hammerhand, then get your unit to cast Force Weapon activate! Terminators have the 2+ save to not die easily, and bring a Bro-Banner to kill your entire unit in one round. Paladins will do it too, but they're more expensive.
Tyranid Warriors will only care about the guy(s) with Hammers. As pointed out earlier, your list lacks Missiles entirely, and I only see two ranged weapons over the magic S8.
Necrons should be Tremorstaving the poop out of your Wolves, and a C'Tan can bring Worldshape.
Those options aren't even tailoring. People should be doing that anyway. And if that fails, shoot, shoot, and shoot some more.
If there are any Ork players in the area without 21+ Lootas (there are no other good Elite choices, except maybe Kommandos with the special character), again, that's an issue that needs to be addressed with your opponents, not with your list, specifically.
...The only armies that have nothing to deal with Thunderwolves are Eldar and Tau, and they're shooty armies that belong in buildings. Is that the case? Does everyone play Tau and Eldar* and there are no buildings around? ...And Sisters...
*Eldar can stall the brick with their own brick; Wraithguard. Unfortunately, they're extortionately expensive for most people to field in proper numbers to run against Thunderwolves. Although D-Cannons still work fine.
EDIT: What happens when a Necron player rocks up with two Destroyer Lords and 18 Wraiths? Would all your opponents cry about that too, since it's basically the same kind of list?
How many points? If you're in something around 1500+, you should be facing 6+ Venoms and 12+ Lance weapons. Not or, and. The only way you can not die in the first few turns is if you manage to LoS Block, which isn't quite conducive.
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2012-04-07, 09:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
How many points? If you're in something around 1500+, you should be facing 6+ Venoms and 12+ Lance weapons. Not or, and. The only way you can not die in the first few turns is if you manage to LoS Block, which isn't quite conducive.
And while LoS blocking in turn 1 is certainly one of the ways he stays alive, then its not the only one.
Besides that there is getting fortune, a rerolled 3+/4++ save goes a very long way, especially when there are wraithlords in the back row drawing attention though repeatet use of heavy weapons.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2012-04-07, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
For shots and goggles, three Ravagers come with 9 Dark Lances. Total 315 Points. That's it. 315. Or boost it to 420 to have six Twin-Linked Lances on Razorwings. These guys can move 12" a turn and fire all of them. These are the staples of any good DE army.
Is this happening? As you can see from the points cost, it's barely anything and you can still fit a a whole lot more army (Raiders, Venoms and Lances) into the list. I mean, I'd shoot Wraithlords too (the TAK isn't a threat to DE), but MCs shouldn't be lasting long against Dark Eldar no matter what it is.
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2012-04-07, 10:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
Is this happening? As you can see from the points cost, it's barely anything and you can still fit a a whole lot more army (Raiders, Venoms and Lances) into the list. I mean, I'd shoot Wraithlords too (the TAK isn't a threat to DE), but MCs shouldn't be lasting long against Dark Eldar no matter what it is.
The lances are nasty enough, but it isnt worse than what so many other armies could bring to the table.
And since im allmost the only guy he played with, who could be expected to place anything T6+ on the table, then he normaly didnt bring Venoms, seing as his army were more geared towards fighting SM (like mine).
That still leaves him with a lot of other poisoned weapons, but they have relatively short range, meaning that they wouldnt be in range before turn 2-3.
The result of this is that TAK survived at around ½ of my battles against DE.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2012-04-07, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
Yes. Yes it is. Nobody is getting 3 Dark Lances (Missile Launchers/Lascannons) for 105 Points apiece. Actually, I think Imperial Guard might with Heavy Weapon Squads.
Here is a scary-broken Dark Eldar army;
Haemonculus - 50 Points
Trueborn (x3) w/ x2 Dark Lances and Venom - 141 Points
Trueborn (x3) w/ x2 Dark Lances and Venom - 141 Points
Trueborn (x3) w/ x2 Dark Lances and Venom - 141 Points
Warriors (x5) w/ Blaster and Venom - 115 Points
Warriors (x5) w/ Blaster and Venom - 115 Points
Warriors (x5) w/ Blaster and Venom - 115 Points
Warriors (x5) w/ Blaster and Venom - 115 Points
Warriors (x5) w/ Blaster and Raider - 120 Points
Warriors (x5) w/ Blaster and Raider - 120 Points
Ravager w/ x3 Dark Lances - 105 Points
Ravager w/ x3 Dark Lances - 105 Points
Ravager w/ x3 Dark Lances - 105 Points
Total: 1413. Not even 1500 Points yet. Chuck in another Haemonculus, give some Venoms some more Shuriken Cannons. I count 17 Dark Lances, some could be swapped to Disintegrator Cannons. All the Venoms have 5+ Invulnerables, and you could probably give Flickerfields to the Ravagers if you wanted (see above, not even 1500). This is essentially the list that I personally own swapped around a little bit to deal with my meta-game (like Shredders). On the first turn, the Raiders are side-on to LoS Block the rest if I'm not going first.
Do people think I'm not serious when I say Dark Eldar are one of the best armies in the game?
EDIT; If Tailoring for Marines only;
Wyches (x5) w/ Haywire Grenades and Venom - 115 Points
instead of Warriors.
Let the Lances deal with Dreadnoughts if there are any.
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2012-04-07, 12:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
Yes. Yes it is. Nobody is getting 3 Dark Lances (Missile Launchers/Lascannons) for 105 Points apiece. Actually, I think Imperial Guard might with Heavy Weapon Squads.
Do people think I'm not serious when I say Dark Eldar are one of the best armies in the game?thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2012-04-07, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
I kinda wonder how that compares to IG heavy weapon spam.
Here's how I'd run it (assuming I had more IG stuff beyond my tankspam list):
Spoiler
HQ:
Company Command Squad, Voxcaster, Autocannon. 65
Troops:
Platoon 1: 565
Spoiler
Platoon Command Squad, Voxcaster, Autocannon Team. 45
Infantry Squad, Voxcaster, Autocannon Team. 65
Infantry Squad, Voxcaster, Autocannon Team. 65
Heavy Weapon Squad, 3 Autocannons. 75
Heavy Weapon Squad, 3 Autocannons. 75
Heavy Weapon Squad, 3 Autocannons. 75
Heavy Weapon Squad, 3 Autocannons. 75
Heavy Weapon Squad, 3 Missile Launchers. 90
Platoon 2: 565
Spoiler
Platoon Command Squad, Voxcaster, Autocannon Team. 45
Infantry Squad, Voxcaster, Autocannon Team. 65
Infantry Squad, Voxcaster, Autocannon Team. 65
Heavy Weapon Squad, 3 Autocannons. 75
Heavy Weapon Squad, 3 Autocannons. 75
Heavy Weapon Squad, 3 Autocannons. 75
Heavy Weapon Squad, 3 Autocannons. 75
Heavy Weapon Squad, 3 Missile Launchers. 90
HS:
Manticore. 160
Manticore. 160
It's 15 points over but it should be trivial to cut something (maybe the voxcasters).Last edited by Penguinizer; 2012-04-07 at 01:12 PM.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
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2012-04-07, 03:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
I'm starting a dark Eldar army. I have the codex, battleforce, and a haemonculus, I also have about $35 to spend on dark eldar stuff. I'm thinking to spend the $35 on another raider though I would be open to other suggestions. I don't have to many people in my area who play so my opponents will be mostly tau imperial guard and maybe some eldar. Does anyone have any suggested lists or advice?
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2012-04-07, 05:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
So...
Squark's Space Wolves Newbie Review Part 2: Elites, Troops, and Dedicated Transports
Just to be clear, this is a rough draft. In particular, I'm not happy with the relatively bland parts on vehicles. If anyone has ANY comments, corrections, or criticisms, I welcome them.
ElitesSpoilerWolf Guard Let me just say this now. I really, really like Wolf Guard. Why? Because one unit can do so many things. When you first at the Wolf Guard's spot in your army list, the first thing you'll notice is the sheer amount of options they have; Wolf Guard alone take up an entire page in the army list. Really, wolf guard have a couple of uses;
1) Pack Leaders: Just before the game begins, you can take one wolf guard and separate him from the squad, and make him lead a squad of Blood Claws, Grey Hunters, Swiftclaw Bikers, Wolf Scouts, or Long fangs (Bizarrely, you can't lead skyclaws). This is why Space Wolves packs don't come with Sergeants like other armies do; You take them all as an elites choice instead. Now, because Wolf Guard are actually an elites choice, this opens up a lot of options that regular sergeants don't have. You want to have your Grey Hunters lead by a Chainfist wielding, storm shield bearing terminator armed with a Cyclone Missile Launcher? Go right ahead. Personally, Powerfist+Combi-melta is my favorite all-purpose squad leader wolf guard setup. Combi-flamers can provide some useful anti-horde measures as well. The important thing here is to identify what a squad is going to be doing, and tailor their wolf guard to compliment that. And just to be clear; If the rest of their pack is dead, the squad leader is still a scoring unit, so that's a plus. The only unit type that they can join that doesn't get a whole lot better with them in it is a pack of Long Fangs. All a Wolf Guard does in a Long Fangs squad is take bullets before someone more valuable.
2) Terminators: A Wolf Guard in terminator armor comes with a power weapon and a storm bolt, and costs 33 pts. That's incredibly cheep as far as terminators go. Basically, Wolf Guard terminators are the Swiss army knife of terminators; You can basically tool them out to do whatever you want. Now, remember when I said using Logan Grimnar to run a Deathwing style Terminators as troops list wouldn't work? Here's why; For starters, Logan is a lot more expensive than Belial. But so are fully geared wolf guard terminators. 5 Deathwing terminators all armed with storm shields and thunderhammers plus a cyclone missile launcher is 235 pts. 5 Wolf Guard pretending to be members of the Dark angels 1st company with that same loadout will cost you 345 pts. I think that safely illustrates why that doesn't work. This isn't to say Wolf Guard Terminators are bad, by any means. 2+ armor saves are always good. But you're not going to spam them.
3) Crazy Shenanigans: Let's be clear, what follows is not a good idea. But if you've ever wanted to field a squad of super bikers, Wolf Guard can do that. Jump Infantry all armed with power fists and Combi-meltas? You should really consider Blood Angels, but Wolf Guard can do that. Wolf Guard can do a lot of really silly things, wargear wise. This isn't a good idea, but if you still want to go ahead with this kind of thing, more power to you.
--Arjac RockfistSpoilerFor 188 points, you can add this guy to your squad of wolf guard. And boy is he worth it. Do a quick comparison to a battle leader for me, will you? That's right, he is actually CHEAPER than a battle leader armed the same way. And he has a higher strength, special upgrades to his hammer and shield, and preferred enemy (Independent Characters and Monstrous Creatures). He is exactly as good as he sounds. IF he were an HQ choice, he'd be downright broken. As he is, he's still fantastic. Just remember, he doesn't actually give his squad stubborn since he isn't an independent character. Also, since he isn't an independant character, he can use the other people in his squad as ablative wounds.
Dreadnaught: Dreadnaughts are essentially mobile fire platforms. The stock space wolves dreadnaught comes with an Assault cannon, which is pretty good. In general, Dreadnaughts do pretty much what long fangs do, but in a slot that has a lot more competition. So, if you're taking dreadnaughts, you want them doing something Long Fangs can't. A pair of heavy flamers or twin-linked autocannons seem to be the standout for that role, although Plasma cannons are useful because you won't blow yourself up from Gets Hot! like Long Fangs would.
Venerable Dreadnaught: For 60 more points than a dreadnaught, you get an extra point of WS and BS, the ability to take a saga of majesty, and you can make your opponent reroll on the vehicle damage table if they rolled a result you don't like. Is this worth it? No, not really.
Iron Priests: Right, umm... okay... Iron Priests are kind of weird. They can repair vehicles, take a variety of strange companions, and... well, just in general be weird. One possible use is to use them as a mini-thunderwolf cavalry and have them fight alongside 4 Cyberwolves, but you're going to have to do some conversions for that. You can also try sticking him inside a landraider with all his entourage... But that involves taking land raiders in the first place. Tends to be forgotten about with all the other options available.
Wolf Scouts pack:Most other space marine chapters make the newbies do the scouting. Lehman Russ took one look at the Blood Claws and said, "Not happening." So, Space Wolves use more experienced warriors as Scouts instead. As a result, you have pretty much the same statline as normal marines apart form the 4+ save. What really makes these guys attractive, though, is behind enemy lines. Ordinarily, units that are outflanking have a one in three chance of coming up on the wrong side of the board. Space Wolves scouts, on the other hand, have only a one in six change of coming up on the wrong side of the table, or they can choose to come onto the board from your edge or your opponent's edge on a 3+. These guys, with a good bit of close combat wargear, will put the fear of the emperor in gunline armies before they even step onto the battlefield. With a meltagun and a Powerfist&Combi-melta Wolf Guard coming with them, they'll terrify most tanks in a gunline, too. In general, Space Wolves scouts tend to either be totally amazing, or blow it completely.
Lone Wolf: Since Space Wolves don't reinforce their packs with fresh warriors if the pack takes casualties, it follows that eventually, some packs are going to be reduced to a single member. These are lone wolves, and they have sworn to avenge their packmates deaths, or die trying. And in all probability, they're going to do just that. Lone Wolves are a kamikaze unit pure and simple. In fact, they don't even give up a kill point if they die; they do that if they survive, instead. With just about every possible survivability upgrade you could want, they can do a pretty good impression of a distraction carnifex (That is, something big and scary that can soak up way more firepower than it's points cost would merit). There are three philosophies on Lone wolves;
1) Don't take them: With mechanized Space Wolves, a lone footslogger is a very tempting target for all that useless anti-infantry weaponry your opponent has, which means units that were otherwise not doing anything turn 1 now have a target to shoot.
2) Cheep Deathseaker: Give him mark of the wulfen and 2 ferisian wolves to accompany him to the slaughter house (despite their name, Lone Wolves are free to take 2 fenrisian wolves for bullet sponge purposes, and you definitely need them), and throw him at the nearest group of infantry in the hopes he kills enough models to justify his 55 points.
3) Tank hunter: Terminator Armor, Thundershield, Chainfist, and 2meatshieldsFenrisian wolves. Throw him at the highest value target, and watch him turn it into a smoking wreck. With the thundershield, terminator armor, eternal warrior, and feel no pain, he's going to take a lot of firepower to put down, but he will still most likely bite it. And if he doesn't, hey! He's more than earned a promotion to wolf guard with all the tanks he killed, so it's all good.
Troops
SpoilerGrey Hunters: Grey Hunters are amazing. They are what Tactical squads wish they were. With boltguns, you're a decent anti-infantry squad, and you've got 3 attacks on the charge (or with Counter attack, when you are charged). Most of their wargear is dedicated to making them better in assault, and footslogging squads will probably want at least some of it (Protip: Save points on the powerfist and give it to the wolf guard battle leader instead!). They also do a good job riding around in a rhino or razorback with meltaguns. Just remember that since most Space Wolves vehicles can only carry 10 people, you have to choose between a wolf guard or the 10th guy and his free special weapon.
Blood Claws: Imagine a teenager who thinks he's immortal. Now, have a being he's been told is a god come and rescue him from near death and make him into a being like said "god". That's what a blood claw is, and they're just as reckless as you'd think. With Grey Hunters or Wolf Scouts, you want a Wolf Guard leading them. But with Blood claws and their variants, you need a Wolf Guard or Independent Character Babysitting them. To make these guys work, you're going to need a delivery system, and your only choice is the Land Raider. So you're talking an awful lot of points here. On the plus side, these guys feel like they were custom built for riding in a Land Raider Crusader with a Wolf Priest leading them. Wolf Priests in general work well with these guys; WS 3 is a lot less important when there's 15 of you and you have preffered enemy and Fearless means you're not going to turn tail and run if you take casualties to bolter fire.
--Lukas the Trickester
SpoilerBlood Claws upgrade. He has mediocre gear, and permanently locks you at LD 8. Pelt of the Doppegangrel (For some reason, I always picture this as a chameleonic buny). He's likely to be the last of his squad to survive, and he stands a good chance of taking his killer with him once that's happened. IF he manages to take a Titan (Yes, this totally works. I want to see him take an Eldar Phantom down this way. It will be hilarious. 4 foot tall resin monstrosity doomed to spend eternity trapped in a time bubble with 1 guy trapped underneath it's boot having a giggle fit), Dreadnaught, or a Monstrous Creature with him, that's amazing. If he takes a guardsman or a Necron Warrior, though, that's much less awesome. Especially because said Necron warrior will still be able to reanimate.
Dedicated TransportsSpoilerRhino:The humble rhino is a cheep way for your grey hunters to get from point a to point b. Since it has two fire points, your grey hunters can fire a pair of meltaguns or plasma guns out of them. The upgrades aren't really worth it, in my opinion. Rhinos are good because their cheap, and upgrading them makes them... not cheap.
Razorback: Minimum sized grey hunters and Long Fangs will prefer the Razorback to the rhino for their transportation needs. While you don't have fire points, a twin-linked plasmagun and a lascannon can more then make up for it. Since it's a bit more of an investment, some upgrades may be merited, but still, a "plaserback," as they're often called, is pretty solid on its own.
Drop Pod:Many space marines players are of the opinion that every space marines army should have at least one drop pod in it, and I'm one of them. Drop pods are a great way to get Dreadnaughts, Wolf Guard Terminators, Assault focused Grey Hunters, and Multi-melta Long* fangs right into the thick of things. Just remember two things; 1) Drop pods are an extra kill point, so expect them to get wrecked fast in kill points games. Since they run the risk of exploding more often since they're open topped, you should probably vacate the drop area quickly. 2) Deathwind missile launchers are a trap. You're more likely to shoot your own squad with them than you are to do something meaningful. PROTIP: Odd numbers of drop pods allow you to maximize the number of pods coming in on turn 1!
*Mutli-melta Long Fangs... That's a specific beast I'll cover in the Long Fangs sectionLast edited by Squark; 2012-04-17 at 12:59 PM.
Steam ID: The Great Squark
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2012-04-07, 08:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
Wolf Scouts with a meltagun/meltabombs make parking lots quake in fear.
I've never fielded a "Rifleman" Dreadnought myself (2x autocannons), but I know Marine players who swear by them. With Wolfies though, you're probably better off with Long Fangs.Originally Posted by Book of Erotic Fantasy
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2012-04-07, 10:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
Check again. You can't shoot them (at least on the first turn) because there are Raiders-turned-sideways blocking LoS. And I can do that all game. If they can survive the first turn, they'll be moving 12" a turn behind more terrain (or I'll just move the Raiders in front of them as well if they aren't destroyed) and whatnot shooting 3 Dark Lances a turn. Worse if you give them Flickerfields and Night Shields (which are both undercosted for how amazing they are).
Yes, it looks nasty, but not worse than what i have seen from either BA, SW or IG.
BA Assault Squad (x5) - 165 Points
Meltagun
+ Plaserback
Grey Hunters (x5) - 155 Points
Meltagun
+ Plaserback
DE Warriors (x5) - 115 Points
Blaster
+ Venom [Flickerfield]
The only difference is the squads is that the Marines have Power Armour. They output the same amount of fire, except that Splinter Rifles are better because Poison rules. The Meltaguns for the Marines can't shoot whilst they're in the Razorback - which is a drawback. Wheras a Blaster will blow the vehicle, and the Venom will shoot what comes out, and the Warriors are still safe inside the vehicle.
What? AV10? Who cares? I'll take my Invulnerable against that. If I fail, it's no different to any other vehicle getting shot by a Lascannon so what's the difference?
...You also note the -40 point difference.
Imperial Guard, on the other hand, are better because Veterans in Chimeras have Fire Points as well as weapons and that comes out at 155 points if you're doing it right. But that's why Imperial Guard are the best army in the game.
That's what [Word Processor of your choice] is for.
Wolf Guard: [...] When you first at the Wolf Guard's spot in your army list, the first thing you'll notice is the sheer amount of options they have; Wolf Guard alone take up an entire page in the army list.
Personally, Powerfist+Combi-melta is my favorite all-purpose squad leader wolf guard setup.
What's the unit(s) that benefits from Wolf Guard most? Or is that dealt with in later unit entries?
What about a squad of PAWGs? Because Logan makes them Scoring and that's amazing. How do I outfit them then? Should I run them up the board and gear them for combat giving them all Wolf Claws 'cause that sounds cool! Or do I hold them on my backline shooting Combi-Plasmas and Storm Bolters? What's a good way to utilize Logan's ability? Are Wolf Guard as good as Sternguard? How do they compare?
Wolf Guard Terminators: [Very little explanation except to say that they aren't Deathwing.]
[Cheesegear says; Just because a particular unit set up is 'the best', it doesn't mean that all other options become invalid. There are bad options, of course, but good options don't become bad because they aren't the best. Go back over my newer Guides (Grey Knights and Tyranids especially), and notice that I include many instances of 'if you want' and 'if you don't like this option'. Of course, there are some options like Purifiers with Halberds that are just so good and so cheap that there is absolutely no reason to take anything else. But those instances are rare. Although, Long Fangs with Missiles is one.]
Arjac Rockfist: [...] He is exactly as good as he sounds. IF he were an HQ choice, he'd be downright broken. As he is, he's still fantastic. Just remember, he doesn't actually give his squad stubborn since he isn't an independent character.
[Also remember that he is not an Independent Character, which means he can't be targeted, which means he essentially has 2+(# models around him) Wounds, which really does make him an unstoppable force.]
Dreadnaught: Dreadnaughts are essentially mobile fire platforms. The stock space wolves dreadnaught comes with an Assault cannon, which is pretty good. More help on this section would be appreciated.
The issue is that one Elites choice will always be taken by Wolf Guard (always!), unless you have Logan. And Wolf Scouts are just the bomb. So, yeah, it's actually kind of hard to find a place for Dreads in a Space Wolf army since Long Fangs are already doing it and don't compete in Heavy Slots for anything else.
...But they do work in Logan armies where your Elite slots aren't bogged down. But Logan armies tend to be in higher points brackets.
Venerable Dreadnaught: For 60 more points than a dreadnaught, you get an extra point of WS and BS, the ability to take a saga of majesty, and you can make your opponent reroll on the vehicle damage table if they rolled a result you don't like. Is this worth it? I don't know. I've never played with any sort of walker, so I can't say.
Iron Priests: [...] One possible use is to use them as a mini-thunderwolf cavalry and have them fight alongside 4 Cyberwolves, but good luck getting all the models for that.
Wolf Scouts pack: These guys, with a good bit of close combat wargear, will put the fear of the emperor in gunline armies before they even step onto the battlefield. In general, Space Wolves scouts tend to either be totally amazing, or blow it completely.
Grey Hunters: (Protip: Save points on the powerfist and give it to the wolf guard battle leader instead!).
They also do a good job riding around in a rhino or razorback with meltaguns.
Blood Claws: I really don't like blood claws even when they aren't spending the entire game trying to kill a land raider with krak grenades; To make them work, you really need a delivery system for them, and a Land raider is the only one that's going to work. And land raiders are expensive.
...Wait, you mean none of those are bad ideas? Oh, carry on.
Lukas the Trickester: Pelt of the Doppegangrel would be awsome if he was an independent character, but Lukas isn't so it's not.
[...]And last laugh is unpredictable and as likely to annihilate half his squad as it is to take out something valuable.
Rhino:The humble rhino is a cheep way for your grey hunters to get from point a to point b. Since it has two fire points, your grey hunters can fire a pair of meltaguns or plasma guns out of them. The upgrades aren't really worth it, in my opinion. Rhinos are good because their cheap, and upgrading them makes them... not cheap.
Drop Pod: Multi-melta Long fangs right into the thick of things.
Is a full Drop Wolf list any good?