Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."

[Cheesegear]

Any thoughts on Epistolaries casting Might of Heroes twice in one turn?

No. It's in the FAQ.

The FAQ, page 3
Q: Can a pysker attempt to cast the same psychic
power more than once in a turn? (p50)
A: No, unless the psychic power itself specifically allows
it.

I knew it was a rule, but it isn't in the rulebook. If you have a question on how the game works, you should always try the FAQ. It's qualified the 'FA'Q for a reason.

[bluntpencil]

Thank you!

In that case, a Standard Librarian it is, maybe with extra guns and fists tossed around... or... is a Furioso Librarian worth it? I think it'd look cool, and require less conversions, and wouldn't screw with the colour scheme so much, I think, since I could paint its armour mostly white.

[Squark]

3? More like 6-9. Although that does depend on points limit.

Did not know they came in squadrons. Shows just what I know. Although, given they are the Landspeeder of Tau, it makes sense, really.

[Timberwolf]

Thank you!

In that case, a Standard Librarian it is, maybe with extra guns and fists tossed around... or... is a Furioso Librarian worth it? I think it'd look cool, and require less conversions, and wouldn't screw with the colour scheme so much, I think, since I could paint its armour mostly white.

In my opinion, while almost totally immune to small arms fire, your Librarian Dread is going to eat every antitank gun your opponent possesses if it's the only vehicle (and therefore worthwhile target) in the army. The 5+ cover save will not go far enough to save it. Shield of Sanguinius is great for if you have lots of vehicles but if the enemy can hit you with concentrated antitank fire, you're still going down. A normal jump pack Librarian can be hidden in his squad and requires very little conversion. GW do packs of jump packs, just replace his backpack with one and you're good to go.

The Dreadnought, once it's armour is pierced and the 5 or 6 rolled is dead. If a squad gets hit by the same antitank shot, well, that is what the Chainsword / Sanguinary Guard pleb is for, taking wounds so your Librarian survives.

However, a wise man once said "What You Like == What Is Good" so if you want to take it, go right ahead. Speaking as a very unconventional Blood Angels player (Assault marines ? Razorbacks ? Sanguinary Guard ? what are these things you speak of ?) I would encourage you to try things out.

[bluntpencil]

In my opinion, while almost totally immune to small arms fire, your Librarian Dread is going to eat every antitank gun your opponent possesses if it's the only vehicle (and therefore worthwhile target) in the army. The 5+ cover save will not go far enough to save it. Shield of Sanguinius is great for if you have lots of vehicles but if the enemy can hit you with concentrated antitank fire, you're still going down. A normal jump pack Librarian can be hidden in his squad and requires very little conversion. GW do packs of jump packs, just replace his backpack with one and you're good to go.

The Dreadnought, once it's armour is pierced and the 5 or 6 rolled is dead. If a squad gets hit by the same antitank shot, well, that is what the Chainsword / Sanguinary Guard pleb is for, taking wounds so your Librarian survives.

However, a wise man once said "What You Like == What Is Good" so if you want to take it, go right ahead. Speaking as a very unconventional Blood Angels player (Assault marines ? Razorbacks ? Sanguinary Guard ? what are these things you speak of ?) I would encourage you to try things out.

Thanks, some quite good advice here. My logic on the Dread was that it could hopefully soak some plasma or lascannon shots, so that the jump infantry wouldn't have to, and would therefore allow them to get into melee safer, on account of being a giant target.

Basically, I like the idea of a small, elite force of true heroes. However, Grey Knights I just don't like, fluff-wise, and I don't particularly like the miniatures, either. Sanguinary Guard totally play up the 'angels' part of 'Angels of Death'.

That and, monetarily, it's cheap as chips. I could buy Dante, 5 boxes of Sanguinary Guard (one of which would be used for conversion bits for the Independent Characters), a Librarian and a couple of Priests, and I'd be done.

Any info on whether a Sanguinary Guard army is competitive or not, especially without Storm Ravens (I'm just not a big fan of them.). How do they fare against horde armies?

[Cheesegear]

Any info on whether a Sanguinary Guard army is competitive or not, especially without Storm Ravens (I'm just not a big fan of them.). How do they fare against horde armies?

Sanguinary Guard is very competitive. A full army of 2+ saves and FNP is going to be a very good list for a very long time. Depending on what 6th will do to the game.

Without Stormravens however, they fall apart very quickly and you must, must resort to DoA, which you could do better with regular Assault Marines sans the one squad that goes with Dante.

EDIT: If you want to run Sanguinary Guard without Stormravens, play Deathwing. Logan's Heroes (Logan, Njal, Arjac and Canis, there's like 1000 points right there) could work. And there's already Grey Knights which you said you don't like, but doesn't change the fact that they're incredibly good and will shoot Sanguinary Guard armies (Stormravens or not) out of the sky.

[Gauntlet]

Been thinking of putting together a more shooty list to make a change from Blood Angels, and I'm thinking Codex Marines at the moment. Here's what I have, would appreciate any input:

Spoiler

Show

Codex Marines, 1500 points

HQ

Librarian- 140
Terminator Armour, Storm Shield
Vortex of Doom, Null Zone

Troops

10 Scouts- 185
4 Snipers, 4 Shotguns
Hellfire Bolter
Combi-Melta, Power Fist

10 Scouts- 150
9 Snipers
Hellfire Bolter

10 Scouts- 150
9 Snipers
Hellfire Bolter

5 Scouts- 85
4 Snipers
Hellfire Bolter

Elites

10 Sternguard- 350
8 Combi-Meltas, 2 Heavy Flamers
Meltabombs
Drop Pod

Fast Attack

Land Speeder Storm- 60
Heavy Flamer

Land Speeder- 90
Typhoon Missile Launcher

Land Speeder- 90
Typhoon Missile Launcher

Heavy Support

Thunderfire Cannon- 100

Thunderfire Cannon- 100

I'm not sure where to put the last 270 points. In this list I took two Typhoons and the small scout squad, but have loads of options I've been thinking about:
- 2 Typhoons and a Whirlwind
- 2 Autocannon Dreadnoughts
- 2 Storms, add Powerfists/Combimeltas to the other scout squads
- 5 Missile Devastators, 2 double flamer Land Speeders

I feel like shooty lists have too many options that all do basically the same thing.

[bluntpencil]

Sanguinary Guard is very competitive. A full army of 2+ saves and FNP is going to be a very good list for a very long time. Depending on what 6th will do to the game.

Without Stormravens however, they fall apart very quickly and you must, must resort to DoA, which you could do better with regular Assault Marines sans the one squad that goes with Dante.

EDIT: If you want to run Sanguinary Guard without Stormravens, play Deathwing. Logan's Heroes (Logan, Njal, Arjac and Canis, there's like 1000 points right there) could work. And there's already Grey Knights which you said you don't like, but doesn't change the fact that they're incredibly good and will shoot Sanguinary Guard armies (Stormravens or not) out of the sky.

Logan's Heroes sounds pretty awesome, heh, although I dislike Canis. Maybe Logan, Njal, Arjac and about 15 Terminators? Is Bjorn the Fell Handed worth taking for flavour reasons? What gear is good for Terminator Wolf Guard? I reckon you can make a pretty good anchor if you toss out the power swords for storm shields, and just sit in your deployment zone shooting with storm bolters and missiles.

How would I run a 1,500 point Sanguinary Guard list with Storm Ravens? I can't seem to find enough points for enough things.

Okay, a Logan's Heroes list:

Tried to make sure that although each squad is similar, they are different from one another, on account of Space Wolves.

The big issue appears to be maneuverability, though. Do I just stomp forwards?

Spoiler

Show

Logan Grimnar: 275
Njal Stormcaller in Terminator Armour: 270

5 Wolf Guard 340

4 Terminator Armour
2 Combi-Plasma, 1 Combi-Melta
1 Heavy Flamer and Power Sword
Arjac

5 Wolf Guard 205
5 Terminator Armour

2 Combi-Plasmas and Power Swords
1 Combi-Melta and Power Sword
1 Combi-Melta and Chainfist
1 Heavy Flamer and Power Sword

5 Wolf Guard 205

5 Terminator Armour
2 Combi-Plasmas and Power Swords
1 Combi-Melta and Power Sword
1 Combi-Melta and Thunder Hammer
1 Heavy Flamer and Power Sword

5 Wolf Guard 205

5 Terminator Armour
1 Combi-Plasma
1 Combi-Plasma and Wolf Claw
1 Combi-Melta and Power Sword
1 Combi-Melta and Power Fist
1 Heavy Flamer and Power Sword

[bluntpencil]

Been thinking of putting together a more shooty list to make a change from Blood Angels, and I'm thinking Codex Marines at the moment. Here's what I have, would appreciate any input:

Spoiler

Show

Codex Marines, 1500 points

HQ

Librarian- 140
Terminator Armour, Storm Shield
Vortex of Doom, Null Zone

Troops

10 Scouts- 185
4 Snipers, 4 Shotguns
Hellfire Bolter
Combi-Melta, Power Fist

10 Scouts- 150
9 Snipers
Hellfire Bolter

10 Scouts- 150
9 Snipers
Hellfire Bolter

5 Scouts- 85
4 Snipers
Hellfire Bolter

Elites

10 Sternguard- 350
8 Combi-Meltas, 2 Heavy Flamers
Meltabombs
Drop Pod

Fast Attack

Land Speeder Storm- 60
Heavy Flamer

Land Speeder- 90
Typhoon Missile Launcher

Land Speeder- 90
Typhoon Missile Launcher

Heavy Support

Thunderfire Cannon- 100

Thunderfire Cannon- 100

I'm not sure where to put the last 270 points. In this list I took two Typhoons and the small scout squad, but have loads of options I've been thinking about:
- 2 Typhoons and a Whirlwind
- 2 Autocannon Dreadnoughts
- 2 Storms, add Powerfists/Combimeltas to the other scout squads
- 5 Missile Devastators, 2 double flamer Land Speeders

I feel like shooty lists have too many options that all do basically the same thing.

Take Vulkan He'Stan, to buff all those combi-meltas and Heavy Flamers!

[Cheesegear]

I'm thinking Codex Marines at the moment. Here's what I have, would appreciate any input:

Isn't this my old, old list?

Librarian- 140
Terminator Armour, Storm Shield
Vortex of Doom, Null Zone

In the Drop Pod, right? I'd go with Avenger. An AP3 template is better than a S10 Blast that you drop on yourself.

10 Scouts- 185
4 Snipers, 4 Shotguns
Hellfire Bolter
Combi-Melta, Power Fist

Missile Launcher is better.

10 Scouts- 150
9 Snipers
Hellfire Bolter

10 Scouts- 150
9 Snipers
Hellfire Bolter

5 Scouts- 85
4 Snipers
Hellfire Bolter

Hellfire Shells just aren't that good. I assume you've got Missiles because you've bought the Sniper box. The fact is, that Hellfire Shells are Heavy 1, Blast, not 'Heavy 3, Poison'. Essentially, if you hit an MC, you deal one wound because that's all Blast weapons will do (what Poison is good against). And if you're going to cause one wound only on a 2+, a Krak Missile can do it too and be AP3 while it's at it, as well as deal damage to tanks.

10 Sternguard- 350
8 Combi-Meltas, 2 Heavy Flamers
Meltabombs
Drop Pod

Looks familiar.
If you don't like Avenger on your Librarian because it's 'just another Flamer template', consider taking Force Dome for this unit. It makes Suicide Sternguard less suicide-y.

Land Speeder Storm- 60
Heavy Flamer

Land Speeder- 90
Typhoon Missile Launcher

Land Speeder- 90
Typhoon Missile Launcher

Lookin' good. This list just seems really familiar for some reason.

Thunderfire Cannon- 100

Thunderfire Cannon- 100

I don't know. Depends on your meta, but not a terrible choice. At least you're not picking Whirlwinds.

- 2 Typhoons and a Whirlwind
- 2 Autocannon Dreadnoughts
- 2 Storms, add Powerfists/Combimeltas to the other scout squads
- 5 Missile Devastators, 2 double flamer Land Speeders

Don't take a Whirlwind.
Don't take more Storms. Typhoons are just far better. The only reason you take more Storms is if you're playing some kind of Shrike list, which this list isn't. One is more than enough, I mean that literally. Most games, if you're Sternguard do things properly, you might not even need the Scouts and Storm.

I feel like shooty lists have too many options that all do basically the same thing.

And you're not wrong.

Logan's Heroes sounds pretty awesome, heh, although I dislike Canis. Maybe Logan, Njal, Arjac and about 15 Terminators?

Yes. Sort of. Grey Knights and Deathwing do it better. As long you aren't taking the full Terminators, you're on the right track.

Is Bjorn the Fell Handed worth taking for flavour reasons?

For flavour reasons only. There is no other reason to take him. He is bad. He is over-costed. He is double-bad.

What gear is good for Terminator Wolf Guard? I reckon you can make a pretty good anchor if you toss out the power swords for storm shields, and just sit in your deployment zone shooting with storm bolters and missiles.

You reckon wrong. But that's okay.

Wolf Guard Terminators (x5) - 275 Points
x3 Wolf Claw [Storm Bolters]
x1 Power Fist [Storm Bolter]
x1 Wolf Claw and Cyclone Missile Launcher [Storm Bolter]
+ Drop Pod

Is the best non-exploit Wolf Guard unit. Yes, you do need the Drop Pod. But, again, Deathwing and Grey Knights can basically do this for 50 points less and don't bring along a free Kill Point Drop Pod.

If you do walk; Play Deathwing/Grey Knights instead Anything AP2 should be met with Cover Saves, from the cover you're actually in or from your Rune Priest casting Storm Caller. And if you have walking Wolf Guard, you should definitely take Canis so he can hide for the first two turns then start blending.
You can swap the Wolf Claws for Storm Shields if you really, really want to. But you don't need more than two if you're using the Drop Pod like you should be.

How would I run a 1,500 point Sanguinary Guard list with Storm Ravens? I can't seem to find enough points for enough things.

Because you can't, really. Sanguinary Guard is a 1750 list at least. If you go over that guide that I wrote again, you'll see that I make it clear that Sanguinary Guard doesn't scale. You can do it without Stormravens if you really, really want to. But, if your opponents are running Plaserbacks (most people don't, though, because it's a conversion and Twin-Linked Lascannons and Assault Cannons exist without any work required), you'll fall on your face.

[bluntpencil]

I think I'll go for the no-vehicle Sanguinary Guard list first, then, once I get some cash together. I reckon it'll be cool as hell. Powerful, but maybe not tourney winning, which is cool by me. Can always add Stormravens later.

I was thinking, though, an alternative to Drop Pods for the Wolfwing army would be to take the new Stormeagle, and charge out of that, waving Wolf Claws at the enemy. Like a Stormraven, but room for more dudes.

Could taking Canis Wolfborn, and accompanying him with a huge squad of Fenrisian Wolves be useful at providing cover saves for Wolf Guard behind them?

Or simply ditching one unit of Terminators, and buying wolves to provide cover saves, and to run headlong into enemy big guns?

[Cheesegear]

I think I'll go for the no-vehicle Sanguinary Guard list first, then, once I get some cash together. I reckon it'll be cool as hell. Powerful, but maybe not tourney winning, which is cool by me.

K.

I was thinking, though, an alternative to Drop Pods for the Wolfwing army would be to take the new Stormeagle, and charge out of that, waving Wolf Claws at the enemy.

Except you've just run into the same problem. Wolf Guard Terminators are even more expensive that Sanguinary Guard - and Logan is more expensive than Dante - and Storm Eagles are even more expensive than Stormravens.

So, yeah. Have fun with that list.

Could taking Canis Wolfborn, and accompanying him with a huge squad of Fenrisian Wolves be useful at providing cover saves for Wolf Guard behind them?

No, because you're taking Fenrisian Wolves instead of more Wolf Guard or Long Fangs or something that's actually useful that can also provide cover saves. And it just means that you've got even more units that can't climb buildings.

[BoSheck]

No, because you're taking Fenrisian Wolves instead of more Wolf Guard or Long Fangs or something that's actually useful that can also provide cover saves. And it just means that you've got even more units that can't climb buildings.

I would like to note that Fenrisian wolves are good sometimes. But I have to stress that they're the very last thing I put in a list (something like 8) if it already has Canis anyway and I just want to fill a few points out. You should never be compromising the core of your army for a few beasts, though.

[Cheesegear]

'Sup playground.

Again, feel free to take any and all rumours with a grain of salt. Me, personally, I refuse to speculate on anything that will or will not happen, and, in the past I've made an effort to change the subject within the thread multiple times. And this is all I'm going to say on the subject;

Next releases are most likely Dark Angels and Eldar. In case you haven't already seen it, the new starter paint kit has Dark Angels instead of Ultramarines. That should've been a clue.

Anyway, earlier in thread people got their pants wet over the fact that when you put the spines of White Dwarves together, they make a Dark Angel. Most of us expected this, but we're still pleasantly surprised that the other army is Eldar, of all things.

[Sila Prirode]

Eh, I really wanted my Chaos to be the next in line for 6th. Guess I'll have to wait with my Tau friend for 2013. But I'm not really surprised by DA or Eldar starters, Eldar was mostly assumed by anyone to be in the next starter, and DA had a strong case, with the White Dwarf and all that.

[DontEatRawHagis]

'Sup playground.

Again, feel free to take any and all rumours with a grain of salt. Me, personally, I refuse to speculate on anything that will or will not happen, and, in the past I've made an effort to change the subject within the thread multiple times. And this is all I'm going to say on the subject;

Next releases are most likely Dark Angels and Eldar. In case you haven't already seen it, the new starter paint kit has Dark Angels instead of Ultramarines. That should've been a clue.

Eldar is really the one with the most girls playing it? Interesting. A friend of mine just recently lost his Eldar army as well should be able to recoup some lose with his friend who plays Dark Angels, by going halvesies.

[Wraith]

'Sup playground.

Again, feel free to take any and all rumours with a grain of salt. Me, personally, I refuse to speculate on anything that will or will not happen, and, in the past I've made an effort to change the subject within the thread multiple times. And this is all I'm going to say on the subject;

Next releases are most likely Dark Angels.....

Totally called it, and you all said I was mad. Suffer not the witch to live, and all that.

....and Eldar.

MOTHERFFffffffffff-

Actually, that shouldn't be such a big surprise as it is. Murphy's Law clearly dictates that as soon as I commit to an indepth and time-consuming review of a Codex, it will become obsolete at the nearest oppurtunity.

....I might do Witch-Hunters next. Just 'cause.

[Hootman]

....I might do Witch-Hunters next. Just 'cause.

I would be so cool with that. I spent a most of a day poring over their new "Codex", trying to find a way to make it even pretend to compete at a meta level, but I couldn't come up with anything I liked. Much like Orks, there's a distinct lack of transports that do what I want in the places I want them.

[Renegade Paladin]

The Forge World staff apparently won't answer e-mails (I asked them this a month ago to no avail) and I'm unwilling to spend the money on an international phone call for this, so I'll see if anyone here knows. In IA8 the Vulture gunship has the Deep Strike rule, and in IAA2 it does not. Which is correct? Also, is it supposed to have the Scouts rule like the Valkyrie, or am I stuck with the (in the fluff) escort gunship unable to accompany the transports it's supposed to be escorting?

[Cheesegear]

The Forge World staff apparently won't answer e-mails (I asked them this a month ago to no avail) and I'm unwilling to spend the money on an international phone call for this

As terrible as it sounds, you should probably ask their Facebook page. They tend to read - and respond - to that thing every day.

In IA8 the Vulture gunship has the Deep Strike rule, and in IAA2 it does not. Which is correct?

In IA8, you take the Vulture as part of the Elysian list. And so you use those rules. If you are not playing Elysians, you can not use Vultures. Normally.

If you want to take a Vulture outside of the Elysian list, you use the independent version found in IA-A2.

[FireJustice]

in IA8 a Vulture is a Heavy Support choice for a Elysian Drop Troop Army List. and in IAA2 the Vulture is a Fast attack choice for Imperial Guard Army.
There are some cost variantion betweeb both.

boils down which list are you using. As I read Codex IG = IAA2 one = no deep strike.

But its IA stuff after all...

(five minutes too late)

[Renegade Paladin]

If you are not playing Elysians, you can not use Vultures. Normally.

If the damn new kids in the club can roll in with their rich parents-bankrolled armies and throw Contemptor Dreadnoughts around, I can take a gunship if it so pleases me to do so. But noted. To their Facebook page, then.

[Cheesegear]

If the damn new kids in the club can roll in with their rich parents-bankrolled armies and throw Contemptor Dreadnoughts around, I can take a gunship if it so pleases me to do so. But noted. To their Facebook page, then.

You can use Vultures though.
In IA-A2, they should have a note saying that they can be used in regular Imperial Guard armies as whatever slot they are that I can't remember. Contemptors have the same thing.

What I meant was, you can't use the Elysian version of the Vulture unless you're playing Elysians. Otherwise you have to use the A2 version.

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, the question is academic; I wouldn't Deep Strike the thing anyway. And ewww, I wouldn't want the Elysian one in a Guard army anyway; while the points are the same, I'd much rather not have it competing for Heavy Support.

[Timberwolf]

So, today I had a run in with "That Guy" and his familiar and ended up playing them in a doubles game, 500 points each as there was no way I was getting another game with things being as quiet as they were.

I ran into a bizarre little rules exploit that I hope someone is now going to tell me you can't do.

You take Shrike, Lord of the Beakies and a unit of Hammernators. You detach Shrike at the start of the movement phase and move him 8 inches. The Hammernators move 6 Shrike then rejoins the unit as he is within 2 inches, Fleet and then assault. This means that they now have an extended threat range and can be halfway across the board with the right Fleet roll inside of a turn. The fact that you can do this on turn 1 from 18 inches away with Shrike's Infiltrate only makes it more of a cheap little trick. They were adding an Autarch / Yriel for even more "WTH !!?".

I held out for a draw with my partner ut it was not a fun game. So, is this actually legal and backed up in any way ?

[Provengreil]

So, today I had a run in with "That Guy" and his familiar and ended up playing them in a doubles game, 500 points each as there was no way I was getting another game with things being as quiet as they were.

I ran into a bizarre little rules exploit that I hope someone is now going to tell me you can't do.

You take Shrike, Lord of the Beakies and a unit of Hammernators. You detach Shrike at the start of the movement phase and move him 8 inches. The Hammernators move 6 Shrike then rejoins the unit as he is within 2 inches, Fleet and then assault. This means that they now have an extended threat range and can be halfway across the board with the right Fleet roll inside of a turn. The fact that you can do this from 18 inches away with Shrike's Infiltrate only makes it more of a cheap little trick. They were adding an Autarch / Yriel for even more "WTH !!?".

I held out for a draw with my partner ut it was not a fun game. So, is this actually legal and backed up in any way ?

not a valid strategy. only the character himself can attach/detach; once shrike moves, the terminators can try to catch up but they'll still be different units I believe.

[Renegade Paladin]

not a valid strategy. only the character himself can attach/detach; once shrike moves, the terminators can try to catch up but they'll still be different units I believe.

Attaching happens at the end of the movement phase, though; no matter how you move your units around, if an IC is within 2" of a unit at the end of the phase, he joins it. It's cheesy, but it works. http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2011/09/slingshot-how-to/

[Teln]

That's the sort of **** that should be reserved for tournaments if you ask me.

[Renegade Paladin]

That's the sort of thing that should really be better addressed in 6th edition, if you ask me. Assault ranges need to be much shorter overall.

[Cheesegear]

So, secure in the knowledge that Dark Angels and Eldar are at least semi-definite, probably should start thinking about doing a Chaos Marine guide since CSMs is another army that a lot of people want to do, but is full of traps and bad units and people just frequently do them wrong.

At least, judging by the people who come to the store. People at the club don't play with Codecies full of traps and bad units.