Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."

[Cheesegear]

Oh, so the actual books are here. I thought all you guys were talking about details from people who had read the books before launch. Silly me.

Well, I got mine 9 hours ago. But I'm in Australia so I'm ahead of most of this forum.

[CN the Logos]

Not well. Necrons are probably the best army in 6th on first readings. The less Necrons you take...Means you're taking less Necrons.

Really? I mean, I'm not complaining, it's good to know that the $150 I spent on 1200 points of Necrons awhile back was money well spent, but the way everyone is going on about how great psykers are had me wondering if I was missing something essential with my soulless art deco robot mummies.

Do you (or anyone else here) mind giving me a brief rundown of the most noteworthy powers and things to watch out for, since I don't have any other codices and can't afford the new rulebook right now?

Of all the allies that Necrons can have, Grey Knights are the best ones though.

Yeah, I've got to say, coming from Malifaux where having ten models on the field is considered a larger crew, I like the idea of individual models being a significant part of my army, and space wizards are cool. I may end up buying them at some point, although they're probably a lower priority than a Night/Doom Scythe or two (speaking of which; did Night Scythes get better for some reason? I saw something to that effect in a recent post here but am not familiar enough with the rules in question to know why. Or maybe I just misread?).

If I were to pick up one of the two GK elite units I mentioned in my previous post though, which would be better? Or is their space wizard/sacrificial death star value simply too low to bother with at all? I figured that with Necron melee being mediocre at best and them not having any magic whatsoever, the knights might add a little something interesting to the army.

If it's totally not worth it, it will be a shame, as I really like the models for those two units and don't want to invest in a full Grey Knight army. But I don't want to spend $90 on something that is going to be used a few times and then sit on my shelf because I don't want to play it in an actual game. So I beseech you all, give me your wisdom!

[Zorg]

Well, I got mine 9 hours ago. But I'm in Australia so I'm ahead of most of this forum.

My order is still processing - glad I pre-ordered and spent the extra to get the collectors edition. So it'll ship on Monday (maybe), so I should have it by Wednesday, maybe Tuesday if I'm lucky.

Seriously, f*** GW right now

[Cheesegear]

Really? I mean, I'm not complaining, it's good to know that the $150 I spent on 1200 points of Necrons awhile back was money well spent, but the way everyone is going on about how great psykers are had me wondering if I was missing something essential with my soulless art deco robot mummies.

But if you're under the impression that Psykers are amazing, why are you picking Dragio/Crowe and Paladins/Purifiers? If that made any sense, you'd be picking a Librarian, Techmarine, Strike Knights x2, Interceptors and Purgation Squads.

People seem to have misunderstood; Terminators are good when you have lots and lots of them. Like Deathwing and pure Grey Knights. One unit of Terminators is just going to get shot at, same as they did in 5th.

Do you (or anyone else here) mind giving me a brief rundown of the most noteworthy powers and things to watch out for, since I don't have any other codices and can't afford the new rulebook right now?

Not really. Again, I'm not in the habit of re-writing the rulebook since it's illegal on one hand, and I had to pay for it on the other hand.

Biomancy; Some excellent powers. Best on Blood Angels and Tyranids.
Divination; Solid powers. Good Primaris. Best on Eldar, Space Wolves and Grey Knights. Casting Perfect Timing will be especially brutal on Long Fangs.
Pyromancy; Probably the worst set, since it's all short-ranged shooting attacks, and if you've built your army correctly you should have heaps of that already.
Telekinesis; The utility set. Gate of Infinty which you should know of. And then there's basically what the Necron Dispersion Shields do as a Psychic Power, Vortex of Doom is there. Basically most of it comes out of the current Space Marine Codex.
Telepathy; The best Primaris Power, and some extremely excellent powers that basically shut down your opponent. Thousand Sons armies allied with Fateweaver are going to dominate, literally...Maybe you'll need the rulebook to get the joke. But seriously, Telepathy is really good.

[CN the Logos]

But if you're under the impression that Psykers are amazing, why are you picking Dragio/Crowe and Paladins/Purifiers? If that made any sense, you'd be picking a Librarian, Techmarine, Strike Knights x2, Interceptors and Purgation Squads.

Because I've played like, five games so far, read a codex and a half, and wasn't sure what the most useful models were but liked the look of a few so I thought I'd ask if they were worth spending my money on?

People seem to have misunderstood; Terminators are good when you have lots and lots of them. Like Deathwing and pure Grey Knights. One unit of Terminators is just going to get shot at, same as they did in 5th.

[...]

Biomancy; Some excellent powers. Best on Blood Angels and Tyranids.
Divination; Solid powers. Good Primaris. Best on Eldar, Space Wolves and Grey Knights. Casting Perfect Timing will be especially brutal on Long Fangs.
Pyromancy; Probably the worst set, since it's all short-ranged shooting attacks, and if you've built your army correctly you should have heaps of that already.
Telekinesis; The utility set. Gate of Infinty which you should know of. And then there's basically what the Necron Dispersion Shields do as a Psychic Power, Vortex of Doom is there. Basically most of it comes out of the current Space Marine Codex.
Telepathy; The best Primaris Power, and some extremely excellent powers that basically shut down your opponent. Thousand Sons armies allied with Fateweaver are going to dominate, literally...Maybe you'll need the rulebook to get the joke. But seriously, Telepathy is really good.

I see. Thank you for your time.

[Cheesegear]

I see. Thank you for your time.

The issue with the Psychic Disciplines is that it doesn't actually matter what I tell you they are since they're random. And, unlike Fantasy, you don't get to pick your powers if you roll doubles. You just keep rolling and rolling until you get separate powers. So for the moment, it doesn't actually help if I tell you which ones are better since they're random. The best I can do is group them by overall power of the Discipline, and the ratings of the Primaris Power which you can choose.

[thereaper]

The one big question I had (and still do) is whether or not wound allocation still requires that all models in the unit take a single wound before any can take two.

Everything else can wait until I get my hands on the book.

[Borgh]

The one big question I had (and still do) is whether or not wound allocation still requires that all models in the unit take a single wound before any can take two.

Everything else can wait until I get my hands on the book.

nope, the closest model takes wounds untill it dies and then the next one gets wounded untill dead and so forth.

Poor people who had an army their wound allocation shenenigan squads. Oh wait, no I don't pity those annoying $%&* and am glad its gone.

[CN the Logos]

The issue with the Psychic Disciplines is that it doesn't actually matter what I tell you they are since they're random. And, unlike Fantasy, you don't get to pick your powers if you roll doubles. You just keep rolling and rolling until you get separate powers. So for the moment, it doesn't actually help if I tell you which ones are better since they're random. The best I can do is group them by overall power of the Discipline, and the ratings of the Primaris Power which you can choose.

No really, thank you for the advice. It didn't come across well in text, but I wasn't being sarcastic. I'm feeling a bit snippy, but that's more to do with my current insomnia combined with the eight hour drive I'm about to make than anything else.

Suppose I'll stick with pure 'Crons for the moment unless there are any wildly dissenting opinions.

[Cheesegear]

The one big question I had (and still do) is whether or not wound allocation still requires that all models in the unit take a single wound before any can take two.

Kind of.
Wound Allocation is wound allocation. Closest first. Regardless of how many wounds you've got left. This also will actually make squad coherency matter, as some of the middle squad can get taken out while some of the front and back stay alive.

[The_Final_Stand]

FAQs have been released.

Necron FAQ.
Warscythe
S +2, AP1, Armourbane.

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over how badly your vehicles are being destroyed.

[Cheesegear]

Make sure you go to page 52 and check out the Gunslinger rule. A model with two Pistols can fire both of them in the Shooting phase. Archons with dual Blast Pistols. Imperial players with dual Plasma Pistols, etc.

Also note that Characters have Precise Shots which means if they roll 6s To Hit they can choose who takes the wound...With AP1/2 weapons is kind of really good.

[Borgh]

ugh, i wrote a whole list of stuff that changed for the DE and then realized it is probably a bit too specifc to go post around on the internet.
anyway here is the summary,

• first turn assault is now practically impossible due to changes in disembarkation and fleet.
• Reavers got a bit more durable with the Jink and Skilled rider special rules.
• free flickerfields for everyone (now called the Jink rule, I love that one.)
• Plasma grenades got a lot cooler.
• Defensive grenades (in the Phantasm grenade launcher) got a lot cooler and will be perfect for those poor wyches that will now more frequently get caught in the open.
• Hellions got a boost in assault along with all other Jump troops.
• Venoms only have two HP
• ap2 got better aka all our anti-tank
• Night Vision is a lot cooler as Night fighting got more debilitating.
• Agonizers are ap3
• Duke Slicus got even cooler as deep striking got less risky and reserve rolls got more reliable

I might think of more stuff later on but this is it for a bit.

also, FAQs are up

[Renegade Paladin]

Techpriests fix hull points.

And they reversed themselves on Techpriests and Ministorum Priests being able to be the mandatory HQ. Not that I've ever done it, but having the ability there in case I didn't want my durable plasma unit for some reason was nice.

[Cheesegear]

All Psychic Tyranids are Mastery Level 1, except Swarmlord who is 2. Well, that blows.

Tyranids were expected to be one of more buffed armies for 6th. Similar to Tau and Chaos Daemons...Once again, the FAQ wrecks everything.

[bluntpencil]

What does Master-crafted do now? Is it more streamlined for squads packing MC weapons? Rolling individual Sanguinary Guard attacks is a pain in the ass.

[Cheesegear]

What does Master-crafted do now? Is it more streamlined for squads packing MC weapons? Rolling individual Sanguinary Guard attacks is a pain in the ass.

Master-Crafted is in the Codex. Not the rulebook. It doesn't change. Vulkan Hammernators have the same problem. It's something you have to deal with.

[bluntpencil]

Master-Crafted is in the Codex. Not the rulebook. It doesn't change. Vulkan Hammernators have the same problem. It's something you have to deal with.

That's a serious pain in the ass.

I was hoping it'd turn up in the rulebook. :/


Also:

New Tricks, anyone?

Wolf Priests are awesome.

Preferred Enemy: Infantry, combined with Long Fangs packing Heavy Bolters, or Grey Hunters with Plasma Guns, or Wolf Scouts with Sniper Rifles, or anything, really. (This is a tricksy one, making for good snipers).


Wolf Priests seem to have become the 'wise' Chaplains. No headlong charge for these fellas, if it isn't the best plan of attack!

[DaedalusMkV]

Make sure you go to page 52 and check out the Gunslinger rule. A model with two Pistols can fire both of them in the Shooting phase. Archons with dual Blast Pistols. Imperial players with dual Plasma Pistols, etc.

Also note that Characters have Precise Shots which means if they roll 6s To Hit they can choose who takes the wound...With AP1/2 weapons is kind of really good.

I... Just had to comment on this. Tau Commanders are now good. Really good. Really, really good. I loved my Commander when he merely killed three Marines a turn. Now that he gets to snipe a bad guy every two turns or so, at AP2... It may actually be worth taking two.

Also, Target Locks no longer do anything? Did they allow any unit to split fire however they want or just decide to take away one of our nice things? If the latter, what the hell?

[deuterio12]

I... Just had to comment on this. Tau Commanders are now good. Really good. Really, really good. I loved my Commander when he merely killed three Marines a turn. Now that he gets to snipe a bad guy every two turns or so, at AP2... It may actually be worth taking two.

Speaking of which, the way I read it, "character" now applies to squad leaders as well, so crisis suit leaders should also benefit from it!

Also, Target Locks no longer do anything? Did they allow any unit to split fire however they want or just decide to take away one of our nice things? If the latter, what the hell?

There's a special rule for spliting fire in the new rulebook.

[Tychris1]

All Psychic Tyranids are Mastery Level 1, except Swarmlord who is 2. Well, that blows.

Tyranids were expected to be one of more buffed armies for 6th. Similar to Tau and Chaos Daemons...Once again, the FAQ wrecks everything.

So they still cast 1 power a turn. So what? They didn't get nerfed or buffed, they stayed the same. At the very least, we have access to a great support/offensive psychic discipline AND a cheap and easy way of getting them (Zoanthropes). I'm thinking we'll be seeing Zoanthropes donning the pointy hat and taking a more army centric role.

[bluntpencil]

Is it just me, or do Runic Weapons and Wolf Tail Talismans not take a dump on psykers from a great height?

[Voidhawk]

Just been reading the Necron FAQ. Man, they left alot out. I think I may print it out, 6th ed really is the second half of the codex.

Anyway, the bits I found most interesting:

Catacomb Command Barges are officially Chariots (how did I not see that the pilots are being held in reins by the Overlord?), receiving an awesome d6 Str 6 impact hits when charging into assault. A nice little buff that makes them worth their points.

Triarch Praetorians have their Rods of Covenant become "Str +1 Ap 2 Unwieldy" in assault. This makes them Terminator hunters, and generally making sense for their points cost.

Warscythes being AP 1 and armour bane has been covered already, returning them to their "Most feared Melee weapon" status.

Initiative adjusting wargear now goes: 1) apply positives and negatives, 2) apply fixed values, and if rules conflict roll off. So if Banshees charge Wraiths, it's 50/50 who goes first and who dies horribly.

Night Scythes get "Invasion Beams" instead of Hover. Basically, the unit inside can disembark before or after it's moved, so long as it's gone 36" or less. If it moved/is going to move more than 24" however, they can only fire snap shots. Wow, that's good. I think Night Scythes may have just stole the "Best Transport" title from Dark Eldar Raiders. They're quick, hard to hit, carry a gun that spits glancing hits, and don't kill their transported unit when they inevitably crash. Looks like Airborne-Crons is going to become a major thing.

I love Night Scythes now, not just for that rule, but mostly because I can now make screeching noises as I swing them towards the enemy. SGA Wraith Darts always did have the best way of delivering troops.

[Tome]

My Grey Knights (Terminator spam) got better, which is cool and all, but I was hoping to switch back to my Tau.

At least I can now take them as an Allied Detachment. 12x Fire Warriors, 1x Crisis Commander+Bodyguards, 3x Crisis Suits, 3x Broadsides.

I've played a bit with the new rules, so I figure I'll give my initial impressions on what they do for the Tau, based on my first playtesting.

Spoiler

Show

Overall: Overwatch is good, slightly reduced assault ranges are good, allies are good, more mobile Jet Packs is good, reduced Cover is good, mass S5 glancing light vehicles to death is good.

Blacksun Filters are more useful, both thanks to negating Night Fight completely now and it being a lot more common in the first place.

Target Locks have been, for some bizarre reason, FAQed out, which nerfs a few unit builds and is generally a serious kick in the balls when they just introduced a new Split Fire rule that did the same thing they used to do.

Disruption Pods got nerfed as well, they're down to a 5+.

Due to Precision Shots, it's fairly hard to justify not taking a Team leader upgrade and a Hard-Wired Blacksun Filter in every unit (check the wording on Night Vision, only one model needs to have it for the entire unit to benefit).

All in all, I agree with Cheesegear's assessment that they got buffed but should only be considered as Allies rather than the main force.

Crisis Commander: Beyond the general buffs, his ability to pick out targets with some of his shots is good. Stimulant Injectors got more worthwhile, now that you can take FNP against things that ignore armour. More than that, his bodyguard are all also characters. Which means the entire unit can do Precision Shots. Who needs snipers?

Ethereal: Buffed, surprisingly. Not just from general IC buffs, but also in that Preferred Enemy now applies to shooting. Significantly less trap-like now.

Crisis Teams: The Shas'Vre is now a Character and can pull off Precision Shots, in addition to the general stuff that benefits Tau. Acute Senses is a little useless though, since they can't Outflank. Buffed, but nothing that benefits them more than most other Tau units.

Stealth Teams: Now gain Stealth and Shrouded for a combined +3 to their Cover saves (or a 4+ in the open). Acute Senses now combines with their ability to Outflank for a nifty bit of utility. Throw in the general buffs Tau got and their Shas'Vre being able to do Precision Shots and they got a lot more usable.

Fire Warriors: Their 4+ armour is now actually worth something! They've got Precision Shots on their Shas'Ui and some other generalised buffs. Also, their Pulse Rifles can now move and fire 30" and doubletap at 15". Which is huge, and means sticking them in a Devilfish no longer neuters their offence quite so badly. Still a tad too expensive for the firepower they bring, but buffed a good bit.

Kroot: Forests are now 5+ cover and might have annoying effects atached to them. Shapers are much less able to take advantage of Precision Shots/Strikes than other Tau characters. Allies also means there are better ways to get cheap bodies on the field, and, more to the point, legitimate counter-assault options. Nerfed.

Devilfish: The nerf to Disruption Pods and light vehicles in general hits them pretty hard, and they were heavily overpriced anyway. Still has no fire points in an army composed entirely shooty units.

Piranhas: On the one hand, Jink basically renders Disruption Pods obsolete and a Fast Meltagun is still a good thing. On the other hand, they're far too vulnerable to assault and glancing hits to be used as blockers like they were previously. Nerfed.

Pathfinders: I was previously of the opinion that it is better to take more of whatever it was that you wanted to shoot with than spend the points on Pathfinders, due to their cost. That still holds true, particularly now that their mandatory Devilfish is now even worse value. On the flip side, at least they can Snap-Fire their Markerlights.

Stingwings: Overwatch is great and all, but these guys still have exactly the same problems as they did before: short range with no assault ability, fragile and expensive. Not a good combo. With the buffs to 2+ saves I expect AP3 will become accordingly slightly less useful as we see more Terminators - take Plasma Rifles instead of these guys.

Gun Drone Squadron: Still behave like a shorter-ranged, more mobile Fire Warrior squad that can't score. Only Fire Warriors got a mobility boost so the gap is smaller. Not nerfed exactly, but obsoleted (not that anyone took them anyway).

Broadsides: 2+ saves got buffed. Railguns are still some of the best long-range anti-tank you can find. Target Locks got removed, but their Shas'Vre can now do Precision Shots when you've killed all the tanks and resorted to sniping heavy infantry. Plasma Rifles made slightly more useful with Overwatch. Buffed a little, I think.

Sniper Drone Teams: Got the same Stealth+Shrouded buff as Stealth Teams, plus they can Snapfire on the move now. Still has the problem of taking up a HS slot that could be spent on Railguns, but the unit itself has been buffed.

Hammerhead: Still a good tank. Disruption Pods got nerfed, but so did enemy cover saves. It's on the heavier end of the Tanks scale, so it didn't come off too badly. Buffed.

Skyray: AV13 it may be, but it still lacks a Railgun. Speculation had the Skyray (which started out as an ANTI-AIR platform) getting the Skyfire rule. But that didn't happen, and thus it remains useless.

Tau Allies: Tau really want a Battle-Brothers ally who can use Psychic powers for them - they synergise particularly well with the Divination discipline. They also want a durable Troops choice and a decent counter-assault option. Space Marines can provide most of this, even if they lack Divination. Eldar are also a good choice, though they require more finesse to use - bonus points for double-teaming the two 4e Xenos codices together. If you're willing to forgo the psychic buffs, they can also ally with every codex that isn't Tyranids - almost everyone has a good anti-assault unit by Tau standards.

[Cheesegear]

Is it just me, or do Runic Weapons and Wolf Tail Talismans not take a dump on psykers from a great height?

They do.

So, here's something...Where are all the Power Axes? Kharn has one. Typhus has one (and now both of those guys are I1...), and now for Space Wolves there's an actual difference between Frost Blades and Frost Axes. Frost Axes give S6, AP2 and I1. This will be good. But, the fact is, Power Axes are all too entirely rare. Terminators will rock for quite some time.

Second, the Emperor's Champion is now a tax. As while he doesn't count towards your HQ limit, he can't be the Warlord. So, that's kind of a nerf.

Characters. Yes. They are Veteran Sergeants and what not. Again, here's a trick for anyone wanting to play Terminators;

Give the Sergeant Lightning Claws. This matters. Characters have Precision Shots and Strikes, meaning when they roll 6s, they pick who takes the wound. Use Sergeants to pick out AP2 weapons which are usually Unweildy and take them out before they can hit.

I'm still on the fence as to whether Plasma Pistol(/s, yes, plural) on Sergeants are worth it or not.

Are Wolf Guard 'Characters' does that mean the entire unit loves rolling 6s? Or are they only Characters when they split off into new units? How does this work?

A 'Character' is anything in a unit that does not share the dominant profile. So, Wolf Guard are not Characters until they split from the unit. In a Space Marine Command Squad, a Champion is actually worth something now, and the Apothecary is even a character, lol.

Crisis Commander: [...] More than that, his bodyguard are all also characters.

How'd you figure that? The Shas'vre in the Bodyguard are not the same as the Shas'vre that lead Crisis Teams.

[Voidhawk]

How'd you figure that? The Shas'vre in the Bodyguard are not the same as the Shas'vre that lead Crisis Teams.

Hmm. Interesting. I went to look this up, and found that while the Crisis Team Leaders/Shas'vres are Characters, Fire Warrior ones aren't. Means if you upgrade a squad leader, say with grenades and a markerlight, he doesn't get a Look Out Sir! roll. How unfortunate. On the other hand he can't be challenged in cc, but you were going to lose that anyway.

[Ishikar]

I have to agree a lot with what tome said. I'm mad that they didn't FAQ the acute senses on crisis suits (Because you know how much everyone outflanks their crisis suits). Allowing you to take armor saves against dangerous terrain rules is VERY nice so it's not so big a deal to deep-strike or jump them into/out of difficult terrain for cover.

I've played against Necrons and Tyranids and really got the crap pounded out of me in both games. Yrmgarl having 2d6 assault range with re-rolling one or both dice (yes, fleet lets you choose which to re-roll, so rolling 4 and 1 lets you just re-roll the 1 and leave the 4) popping out of area terrain has me getting my units torn up on turn 2 with the reserve changes (I do like the reserve changes though, keeps people from playing the "I reserve my whole army so you can't shoot first turn against me" game).

Necrons tabled me turn 4 and I only really killed the monolith and a unit of warriors. He was playing destroyers, annihilation barges, a destroyer lord with wraiths, a night scythe (freaking flyers and NO skyfire in ANY books but guard, yay for capitalizing on fortifications GW, well played). Also random terrain gave me a terribly small amount of terrain in my deployment as compared to his so that really hurt with the particle whip and the like. Overwatch is great but 2+ armor makes firewarrior overwatch mean NOTHING to the assault unit. Misplaced my shield drones at the start of the game (used to 5th, they were BEHIND my Crisis suits and Broadsides). Also 6 to pick target makes shield drones significantly less useful since they just pick off the controller with deathmarks and then fire lances in at the suits.

I REALLY want my Tau to be viable but they REALLY show that being 2 editions out of date hurts the book.

Disruption pods do have a use though, they keep your hammerheads from getting blown up before you even get a chance to move them for the jink save (yes that happened, yes I was mad. I'm just glad I did the same thing back to his monolith by virtue of a pathfinder team's markerlights and a broadside team). The emphasis on characters DOES hurt tau though as only shas'vre suits count for it so if you want the chance to Look out Sir! your team lead they're now 5 points more for a +1WS and access to wargear that is almost universally useless now.

Edit: Ninja post made me go back and check. Shas'vre suits are characters but the basic Shas'ui team lead is not. FAQ corrected

2nd edit: Shas'ui models in firewarrior or pathfinder squads ARE characters. also found a correction that Space marines DO have an affordable skyfire option in their armies (hooray missile launchers). I also found a reference to the Pulse Laser, a 48" Str 8 AP 2 Heavy 2 weapon. Does anyone know where that weapon is from?

[Cheesegear]

Hmm. Interesting. I went to look this up, and found that while the Crisis Team Leaders/Shas'vres are Characters, Fire Warrior ones aren't.

Yes they are. I've recently just figured out that everything that is a Character and what isn't in the back of the book 410+.

ALL WOLF GUARD ARE CHARACTERS. ROFLOLOLOL. Abuse that somehow.

I also found a reference to the Pulse Laser, a 48" Str 8 AP 2 Heavy 2 weapon. Does anyone know where that weapon is from?

Eldar Falcon. The tank nobody takes because Wave Serpents don't take slots away from Fire Prisms because FPs get directly better the more of them you have.

[Renegade Paladin]

Just back from the Apocalypse game. We got to turn 3, and I did not suffer a single casualty owing to being behind a wall of Space Marines. The worst thing to happen to my army was a Gun Crew Shaken and lost structure point for the Stormblade. We had hoped for at least four turns, but one of the players on the other side was new to his army and took longer than ideal to do things. We lost because the game ended where it did, but we were poised to just run right the hell over the objectives, so I really think had it played out things would have been different.

[Ishikar]

Glad to hear that Renegade, I know how that can go with getting shafted by the turn ending just before you make the last push. I'm curious how the plasma worked for you or if you just didn't quite get close enough?