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2012-02-20, 05:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
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2012-02-20, 05:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-02-20, 06:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
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2012-02-20, 06:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
This summarizes my dislike for any Exalt character which utilizes this philosophical construct. Powerful as they are, Exalts should be servants. Those who are boastful and prideful become the villains. ...usually.
Woah-woah! Pack it into a nice document with more stuff. Then, let us read it. I probably would.
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2012-02-20, 06:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
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2012-02-20, 06:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
Youth and strenght alvays lose to age and treachery.
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2012-02-20, 06:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
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2012-02-20, 07:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
I hate when we have Exalted morality debates, especially when we treat the different varieties of exalts as different alignments.
The average (in morality and power) solar will commit more evil acts than the average dragonblooded (like, in the Age of Sorrows, killing all Dynasts or just Dragon-Blooded they come across because they were wronged by one in the past). They will also commit more good acts. This is because they are simply more. More power, more life, more opinion, more motivation to action.Last edited by Hiro Protagonest; 2012-02-20 at 07:23 PM.
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2012-02-20, 07:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
And what should he reply when all others in Custom Charm Discussion started complaining shamelessly ? "Broken, broken !" and other such nonconstructive cricitism. But after I explained the specifics, ST's concerns about "Creation trumps Wyld" were answered. Since it wasn't Raksha Artifact but a normal one. Tuned to Fair Folk. I dropped making it to not hurt feelings of those ... oversensitive.
EDIT: Exalted morality is exactly the same as in our world. From pessimistic point of view. Might makes right. Orc society.Last edited by Rikandur Azebol; 2012-02-20 at 07:24 PM.
Youth and strenght alvays lose to age and treachery.
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2012-02-20, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
Hate to break it to you pal, but the Ring of Being is broken no matter who has it. Doesn't matter if you are Solar, Infernal, Raksha, Mortal, Dragon-Blooded, or Puppyxalted.
My point is, anything a player makes should be carefully looked over by the presiding Storyteller. And maybe the players, to be nice. Meschlum's stuff pushes the boundary of what I at least would allow into a game. Epic is fine, trying to pull haxx isn't.
I'm not say this is how things have to be in your game, or any game you play in. This is only my opinion and suggestion.
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2012-02-20, 08:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
Yuki... Tsk-tsk? Servants to some thing, not some one. Service to a greater good. Text material from the manuals aside, characters that are pompous, full-of-themselves, bullies aren't any fun to play for me. The best characters that I've ever had the pleasure to role-play were always dedicated to something more than themselves. Something that would last beyond themselves.
Now the rest of the thread could jump in and say, "That's your character's motivation!" But it can't be explained away with one line of text. Not for the kind of thing I'm looking for, anyway.
Even Meschlum admits that his stuff isn't standard-game-suitable.
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2012-02-20, 09:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
I know what you mean. These types of rulers also bore me, but they aren't invalid by any means.
My leader-types tend to do so out of need, not want. One warrior of mine negotiated support to an emperor so that he would support him. Led armies to certian victory, conquered many... All for fancy power armor and readily available units to facilitate his own quests!
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2012-02-20, 09:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
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2012-02-20, 10:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
That Panther meme is glorious thank you for telling me about it
Desus is pretty much a scumbag, though. I mean, even if you ignore the fact that he beat his wife so hard that she lost the child she was pregnant with, he did some other nasty things. When Desus was warring against the Lintha, he asked Oliphem to stop helping ships not crash (to disable the Lintha, of course, since his Solar-commanded fleet would suffer minimal casualties). Oliphem refused, because he was honor-bound to protect EVERY sailor. So Desus crippled him. And even if you consider "ends justify the means", remember that the Lintha are still active in Creation, so Desus obviously failed to get the job done anyway. Oliphem was a protector of Creation, and Desus ruined him for causing an inconvenience.
Salina altering the laws of the universe out of "goodness" is also probably not high on the Sidereals' list of "totally okay things", though.
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2012-02-21, 02:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
I'm pretty sure that's Admiral Arkadi, Levithan's Solar mate.
Desus is horrible in personal ways: I never said otherwise, and in fact do support that idea. But, outside of that? He is actually good. He does Heroic things, not out of the right ideas, no, but he does do them.
As for the Lintha, that's actually not all too clear. First off, at least some Lintha were taken under the protection of a different Solar, thus were out of Desus's reach. Secondly, it's not clear if he was tasked with extermination or supression, or something else altogether. Finally, Oliphem wasn't a protector of Creation, he was a Protector of Sailors: some of those sailors he was protecting were, in fact, enemies of Creation, ones that Desus was fighting. And, by aiding the enemy, he was possibly increasing the Death Toll of the Solar armies. So, yeah, it was a **** move, but it wasn't without reason. The real part that makes it bad is that Oliphem wasn't healed afterwords.He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
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2012-02-21, 06:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
2.5 update.
Originally Posted by hatewheelQuoth the raven, "Polly wants a cracker."
Pony avatar by the Great and Powerful DirtyTabs. Lotsa hugs!
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2012-02-21, 06:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
This post isn't meant for conjecture, but clarification. Most of it is rhetorical so no offense is meant:
Which is greater? The hero who masses a great army or he who leads it? The hero who finances new technology or he who builds it? The hero who loves ideals or he who loves people? The hero who preaches or the hero who acts?
Which is greater? The hero who demands sacrifice? ...or is it he who forsakes power, wealth, and fame to become a servant to the very ones who need him the most?
This theme can, or should, resonate with any Exalt type. It's a theme which draws exalts together and binds them to a common purpose.
And it's true. Meschlum's said it plainly. But while it is normally true there's also an aspect of it where it should probably be play-tested. So while the stuff itself is possibly dangerous to a normal game it's still neat enough to try out. Just...don't try it out with players who want to play Exalted too much. Some of that stuff is an, "I Win," switch.Last edited by Story Time; 2012-02-21 at 06:52 AM. Reason: Punctuation
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2012-02-21, 06:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
Ah, good. I expect I'll need to rebuild my current Sid a bit and change my future plans, but it's an affordable price for having an actual charmset .
(Comments made by Hatewheel on the scope of the errata in question make me entirely expect the errata'd Craft tree to be markedly less lean and useful than the version Recaiden and me worked up for my character, mind. But I'm ready to take the hit if the new Sid balance requires it )Last edited by Drascin; 2012-02-21 at 06:57 AM.
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2012-02-21, 07:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
It is ? Perhaps in Your opinion. I am of opinion that powerful items different than "Bigger Gun" archetype are a step towards Epic feeling I like.
I like when Players try to act like heroes, instead of huddling behind their fences like scared little monkeys. Though it's just me speaking my opinion.
As ST I take great pleasure in seeing my Players boldly weathering dangers I put in front of them and cooperating in creating an Epic Story that is a pleasant thing to remember afterwards. Even if all that it was was a heroic last stand.
That includes "broken" stuff used in a way that is interesting and helps the story. Without little trust in Your Players gaming experience turns into "Me vs Them" syndrome.
If Players trust and obey ST, games run smoother than when everyone argues about "my interpretation of rules, that favors me, is the only true".
My opinion on "haxx" is simple. It's something unwhelsome done by ST and/or Player or "Gaia preserve !" Players. When people playing start ... conflicting instead of playing. It's an very ugly thing. ST "haxx" I despise is the so called "railroading".
I do believe that. Also I express my own opinions, without suggesting things, since I tend to enforce them in games I ST.Youth and strenght alvays lose to age and treachery.
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2012-02-21, 07:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
Yeah, if you've got a homebrewed Charm set you're happy with, you should probably keep going with that. This is TCA style errata, and there will be more coming.
In other news, in case you hadn't already noticed, Revlid and Reminiscent Oasis have been chosen to write Sidereal and Lunar Overdrive Charms.Last edited by Weimann; 2012-02-21 at 07:56 AM.
Quoth the raven, "Polly wants a cracker."
Pony avatar by the Great and Powerful DirtyTabs. Lotsa hugs!
Scourge Caste avatar by the illustrious Akrim.elf. Thank you!
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2012-02-21, 08:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
And just like that, I'll squee like a fangirl again...
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2012-02-21, 10:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
Really, Meschlum's stuff is like PunPun or Locate City Nuke is in DnD3.5. A good thought practice on the mechanics, but nothing else.
Then, I know, that other shangenings could be also wrong. I just don't have time to scrutinize other raksha mechanical wonders.
Maybe its better this way
It is ? Perhaps in Your opinion. I am of opinion that powerful items different than "Bigger Gun" archetype are a step towards Epic feeling I like.Last edited by Madwand; 2012-02-21 at 10:18 AM.
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2012-02-21, 11:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
It's both of them, although Arkadi is more well known for it. He raped his Dragon-Blooded subordinates and then Eclipse oath'd them into staying silent.
Nice fellow.
Um. Entirely a matter of opinion? All of them are great, for different reasons. The simple farmboy that begins with nothing, yet goes on to save the world by slaying the Weeping Emperor, is hero. So is the prince born into a life of wealth and privilege who leads the Alliance to victory over the Empire while the farmboy makes a covert strike behind enemy lines. You can argue which one is "more" heroic, but that's pretty silly.
Of course, "hero" is a flexible, morally neutral term in Creation. Admiral Arkadi and Desus were both heroes, despite the horrible things they did. The Deathlords qualify, too. A hero is someone who has the power to change the world and is willing to use that power. It doesn't matter how you use your power, only that you have it and that you do use it.
No, the Ring of Being commits three mortal sins of Artifact designs.
First, it's broken. Duh. Massive immunity to a broad variety of beings is not territory that belongs in an Artifact 5. It would be fine as an Artifact N/A, where it can sit alongside the other plot coupons, but as an Artifact 5? No.
Second, it has incredibly stupid setting implications. How the bloody hell are gods not of Creation proper? The gods that were made in the first place to oversee Creation, many of whom live inside Creation for eternity? It sets up a categorization alongside things like creatures of darkness that has no place within the setting.
Third, and perhaps most importantly, it's boring. "Wear this piece of jewelry, be immune to x, y, and z" is just unbelievably uninteresting. You can argue the mechanics and cost of something like Death at the Root, but it at least does something fairly interesting.
So, yes, Ring of Being is bad, burn it in a fire.Awesome Cyborg Doom Monkey avatar by Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins. Offer up your robo-bananas to him.
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2012-02-21, 11:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
Alright. I'll go at this from a different perspective, lets ignore it mechanically, and look at the artifact from a narrative perspective.
A now hero isn't a hero without risk. Its not cleverness to outwit a fool, it shows no skill to defeat an amateur, and its not bravery if you go after something that has no chance at ever harming you. Attacking your enemies after becoming flat out immune to any chance they can harm you isn't brave. It isn't larger then life. It isn't interesting. Its stupid, trite, boring, and pointless. It has no interesting drawbacks, nothing that gives it any sort of narrative flare, its just there. A flat out no to various powers, and in such a way that its destined to only annoy your ST.Thought of the Week: "Bright is the nova confined in the dark."
=I= ONLY A FOOL CLAIMS TO KNOW EVERYTHING BUT FEAR NOTHING =I=
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2012-02-21, 12:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
Sure it is! It's the opinion of Mortal Versus Exalt. Those are some interesting examples, by the way.
Here's a thought experiment I tried once for Exalted.
Solar A likes the idea that all wagons should have seat-belts. As a law-giver the solar enforces this law everywhere they go. They fine people who don't do it. Those who refuse are beaten up. Why? Because the Solar can put their personal opinion as more important than the traditions and customs of mortals and back it up with some kind of force. Solar A's shard makes them innately stronger than mortals. Even under-water wagons where being tied to the wagon would mean drowning, Solar A will enforce their law. Is Solar A always right because they have power? Because they can pull Judge Dredd style summary executions as part of their mandate to rule?
( No offense for Judge Dredd fans. Dredd doesn't conjure laws from thin air. )
Now, Solar B comes along. Solar B hates the idea of seat-belts. So while Solar A has already been through the area and moved on to bigger and better things, Solar B is having a field day smashing mortal faces because those mortals are breaking Solar B's personal and independent law.
It's not just Exalted that can do this. Any character which is not a player character can be assumed as a villain when this happens: Using Might-Makes-Right, so to speak. So player-characters are exempt from this simply because they're player characters? And that's heroic? That's morally neutral?
...yeah, I'm going to leave this off with a simple thing: Not my kind of game.
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2012-02-21, 12:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
I've sincerely never seen a game where Solars have pulled those kinds of shenanigans. I've seen plenty of non-Exalted games where perfectly killable mortals have pulled those kinds of shenanigans. I fail to see your point.
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2012-02-21, 01:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
Step 1: Buy Lightspeed Body Dyamics.
Step 2: Solo pre-errata Sol at 50 XP.
Step 3: Duck thrown rulebook to the face
Step 4: ????
Step 5: Profit
This game contains broken **** that should not under any circumstances be used, or at least should be relegated to massive plot coupons. This is true whether said broken **** is a Charm or an Artifact.
The Ring of Being is in an 'eff you and the horse you rode in on' on par with a great many Artifact N/As. In fact, it's even better than a great many Artifact N/As.
The Ring of Being you proposed? That immunizes you against everything not of the Wyld? Is better than a Directional Titan. It could, when on the finger of someone with good dice pools, allow them to effortlessly solo Creation. A Directional Titan can't do that, and its purpose is mostly destroying things.
You could then find a Malfeas gate and proceed to solo Malfeas as well. A Directional Titan can't do that, and its purpose is mostly destroying things.
This is not a matter of opinion, or if it is, it's the matter of "everyone's opinion but yours."Last edited by Guancyto; 2012-02-21 at 01:40 PM.
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2012-02-21, 03:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
Desus wasn't one of the problems of the First Age. If every Solar had been like Desus, the Usurpation would never have had to happen.
Yes, Desus would sometimes go mad and beat his wife. Yes, he constantly exuded unnatural mental influence convincing everyone he was even more awesome than he actually was, leading them to excuse any crimes he might bother to commit.
Here's the thing, though; the people who lived in his realm, the people he protected and ruled over? This didn't affect them in the slightest. They lived peaceful lives in well cared-for cities with ample resources and good infrastructure. They were mortals who didn't have to pray to monstrous spirits that cared nothing for them, or endure backbreaking labour in Lintha slave-barques, or be sacrificed by their saurian overlords to a distant Sun-god.
This was what the Primordial War had been fought for, and Desus was a hero for maintaining it.
That he also left one woman a conflicted wreck of insecurities and dependency issues isn't really a concern. It can affect our personal judgement of Desus, but that judgement is irrelevant on a greater scale of lives lost and welfare improved, just as our personal judgement of the Scarlet Empress' personal relations has no impact on the fact that she brought the Balorian Crusade to a halt and saved all of Creation.
Desus wasn't the problem. In the First Age, anyone would have been happy to live in Desus' realm. The issue was with other Solars, ones who were not content with their baubles and amusements.
Idiots like Salina, who undermined the delicate power-balance of the entire Deliberative in order to sneak a pet project to rewrite the laws of the universe into a boring trade-clause.
Creatures like the Hierophant, who inflicted horrible damage to Creation's geomancy in order to feed his lawn-sprinklers, forcibly blinded himself to the suffering of others, and alienated the Unconquered Sun from the affairs of the world.
Entities who proved themselves no more thoughtful or compassionate than the titans who ruled the world before them, stripping free will from their mortal charges, transforming whole cities into living artwork, engineering entire races of monsters or engaging in perverse cruelties on a massive scale.
Spousal abuse was never what concerned the Fivefold Fellowship, any more than casual rape, cannibalism or poor fashion sense. It made the decision to bring down the golden towers easier for some, I'm sure, but personal mortality was never the lynchpin; it was the fact that notable chunks of the Solar host were taking crowbars to the very mechanisms of existence.
The Usurpation wasn't supposed to make tomorrow better. It was supposed to ensure that there would be a tomorrow.
Desus was a hero. Salina was a monster.
SpoilerOriginally Posted by Eco MonoLast edited by Revlid; 2012-02-21 at 03:49 PM.
Thanks to Andraste for the Void avatar.
My surviving Exalted homebrew can be found here.
Originally Posted by Mr Bookworm
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2012-02-21, 04:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-02-21, 04:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!
Recent Homebrew: The Socialite | The Crystalline: Memory Altering Construct Race | Sanguine Hand, a ToB Discipline of blood and cruelty
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