General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

[TheCountAlucard]

You can't, however, just magic up whatever you want using them. There needs to be some sort of rational.

I'm aware of this; that's why it's a stunt.

[aetherialDawn]

A Fair Folk who passes through the Gateway of Sundraprisha and stops at the edge - now a story, an idea only - and then passes back, to exit the mind of an Autochthonian citizen as they write a fable of forbidden fiction, might reasonably have just attempted to replicate Black Faith.
Except instead of only working if the Neverborn like you, it only works if it makes for a good plotline. So exactly the same requirements in other words!

[meschlum]

(Stirs in his slumber)

Let me tell you the tale of Andy and Bob. Both were perfectly ordinary commoners, created by accident when two nobles argued about who would get the last piece of toast. As it was Creation-born toast, this was no laughing matter, and Andy was spawned in order to charge blindly into the fray, making lots of noise and a distraction for his creating noble to grab the tasty, tasty baked bread.

Bob was there too, and charged alongside Andy, shortly before the conflict became a nigh infinitely recursive battle of time travel, reality wipes, and chocolate. Benefitting from an extremely brief spurt of independence, or irrelevance such that neither of the Raksha who created them cared what they might become, the two wandered off into a temporarily empty waypoint.

Bob, being a martial type and endowed with phenomenal essence, took his fairly resilient Sword Grace and loyally shoved it into Andy, using an orifice that was not meant for that purpose. The blessed silence that ensued was almost worth having a newly Heroic master, blindly loyal to him and possessing negligible powers.

Before second (or first) thoughts could hit, Bob then became an Unshaped, promptly forgetting any affection or interest he might have had for Andy.

Still, That Which Had Been Bob was there, so Andy, taking advantage of his own enhanced state, sought to quest without (the opposite of within) the expanse of Bob-dom, seeking a place where Bob might not be and the infinite power that could be gained there.

He failed. He succeeded. He had nachos with mice and opera.

After many scenes of Andy's questing and stunting, Bob's Emanations (and Bob too) had gained so many experience points, they decided to do four things. First, they created a mortal magnet, attracting some fifty tasty Creation-born souls, out of the thousands that a good Retinue or Followers might have provided. Then, they tore off a bit of Bob's omnipresence, compacting it into a marvelous Chancel. Next, they munched upon the mortal souls, rising to the absolute highest Essence possible in the realms poisoned by Creation.

Finally, Bob's Emanations spread Bob into the Chancel, and had a nap.

Andy poked one of them with a stick, and whined until Bob agreed that he'd also be in a realm full of Mad Science. In fact, Andy was realy intent on finding the non-existent third member of this tale, Casey, who had been locked away beyond the Eight Divinities Seal for no good reason. Besides consorting with Malfeas, but who wouldn't?

So one of Bob's Emanations, trying to get some rest, immediately jumped into a trans-universal gate to Autochton's Core, kicked out Andy and the para-temporal Chancel, and left. Bob was there too, of course.

Further adventures led to Casey and Andy reuniting, whereupon they promptly killed each other to celebrate. Many times.


Mechanics

Commoner (non-Heroic) Raksha.
Retinue 4
13 bonus points.

Retinue 4 gives a Heroic Warrior as a servant, who has Essence 3, The Gateway to Sundraprisha and Harmonious Primordial Spirit. It also grants lots of tasty mortal servants.

The Warrior grants the main Raksha its Sword Grace, so the Raksha is elevated to being a Heroic Commoner, and thus has Heart 2 (from 1), as an Instant (non-dispellable) effect.

The Warrior uses The Gateway to Sundraprisha, becoming an Unshaped. The Raksha, being a Heroic Commoner, can peform Shaping combat, and therefore quest against the Unshaped.

The newly formed Unshaped and its Emanations gain unlimited xp in a very short time, thanks to the questing.

Using Soul Digestion Catalysis, the Emanations reduce the training time to raise their Essence to 0. Until reaching Essence 10 and whatever Charms they want.

The newly Essence 10, Heart 4 Emanations pick up Style 5 however they like (Style Improving Spirit is 12 xp, which, compared to infinity, is not much).

Done!

(Goes back to sleep)

[golentan]

So why is it that the order for best excellencies goes Solaroid>Dragonblood>Alchemical>Lunar>Sidereal/God?

Much as I love them, it seems wrong that Dragonbloods and Alchemicals (who are supposed to be the two lowest exalts in power structure) are more mundanely competent than celestials.

[TheCountAlucard]

So why is it that the order for best excellencies goes Solaroid>Dragonblood>Alchemical>Lunar>Sidereal/God?

That's debatable, actually.

Don't forget, the Lunar and Alchemical ones can be applied to a far broader set of actions than a single Solaroid or DB Excellency. And with regard to straight efficiency, the DB First Excellency actually beats out the Solaroid one. Also, the Siddie one can affect target numbers, which can make it situationally awesome as well.

Besides, we know that the Exalted's powers extend far beyond their Excellencies.

[Mr.Bookworm]

So why is it that the order for best excellencies goes Solaroid>Dragonblood>Alchemical>Lunar>Sidereal/God?

Much as I love them, it seems wrong that Dragonbloods and Alchemicals (who are supposed to be the two lowest exalts in power structure) are more mundanely competent than celestials.

Breakdown of Excellencies

Spoiler

Show

Infernals have the best Excellencies in the game, flat-out. They can apply it to anything, if they can fit it into the thematic restrictions of the Excellency, and they get the (Attribute+Ability) dice cap of Solars. In addition, their 2nd Excellency is an upgrade, not a separate Charm. They also get several other amazing Charms branching off of their First Excellency.

Solars and Abyssals have decent Excellencies. While they're split up by Ability, they have a great dice cap. They're not amazing, but it makes Solars/Abyssals good in areas they choose to specialize in.

Alchemicals have amazing Excellencies. They get Attribute-based Excellencies, which are only behind Infernal-types in terms of broadness. They also get the Solar dice cap and have several great Charms branching off of their Excellencies.

Lunars get pretty good Excellencies. They're Attribute-based, so they're broad. Their dice cap is only (Attribute), though.

Sidereals have odd Excellencies, but overall are relatively decent. They're Ability-based and their cap is horrible (Essence), but they can add successes up to (Essence), not just dice. The Fateful Excellency, however, is amazing, and makes their 1st Excellency less crappy.

Dragon-Bloods have pretty great Excellencies. Their dice cap is (Ability+Specialty) and they get to add two dice for every mote spent on their 1st Excellency. Their 2nd Excellency isn't as good, but combined with (Ability) Specialty Focus from TCA, it'll let you get off a free success on every roll within your specialty. Not shabby.

Except Charm design doesn't take place in a vacuum.

Infernals have the best Excellencies in the game, but they pay out of the ass for those. Besides the obvious "must purchase once for every dot of Essence", they have meandering Charm trees that work along thematic lines. If an Infernal wants to grab Malfeas' "I can ignore terrible damage" Charm, first he has to give up his ability to ever sleep well again. He can't just dip into the Resistance tree and grab a Charm or two like a Solar can.

Solars and Abyssals have merely decent Excellencies, so you laugh at them, up until the point where the walk up and murder you in the face, because every single other Charm they have is amazing.

Alchemicals have great Excellencies, but again, look at the overall structure of Alchemical design. They are forced into specialization by having to commit motes merely to use their Charms. In return, they get broad overall abilities.

Dragon-Bloods have pretty great Excellencies, up until the point where you look at the size of their mote pools.

And so on and so forth.

An E5 Solar can't drop tacnukes with their native Charmset like an E5 Dragon-Blood can, but the E5 Solar would still beat the hell out of the DB.

[Dragnar]

So why is it that the order for best excellencies goes Solaroid>Dragonblood>Alchemical>Lunar>Sidereal/God?

Much as I love them, it seems wrong that Dragonbloods and Alchemicals (who are supposed to be the two lowest exalts in power structure) are more mundanely competent than celestials.

While it's certainly true that Dragonblood > Lunar is odd. Sidereals match DBs at Essence 4, and are on par with solaroids at Essence 5 and up.

The three basic Excellencies function for Sidereals much as they do for Solars. Essence Overwhelming and Essence Triumphant add dice or bonus successes (respectively). A Sidereal, however, cannot add more dice or bonus successes than her permanent Essence score.

They can't buy as many dice as anyone else, but they don't divide their limit by 2 for sux. Which is rather odd, but being better at assured competency than random chance is certainly in-theme for them.

[golentan]

To clarify, I'm talking about mundane competence as a baseline by which talent is judged. A maximum skill and talent mortal can muster 13 dice. At younger essence, a solar can be massively more competent for equivalent skill (23 dice). A dragonblood can nearly match the solar skill for skill (21 dice). An Alchemical is almost as competent as a dragonblood when fully optimized for the task (20 dice). A lunar has a similar function to an alchemical, but cannot upgrade their attributes as much (19 dice). A sidereal is deceptive, because while they can almost match lunar raw competence at essence 5 (18 dice), at start of play they tend to go to the back of the bus (15 dice). This is somewhat weighted by their ability to use essence auspicious, but since EA is not combo-able using it to maximum effort results in at most 13 successes, putting sidereals in the ballpark of solars and dragonbloods (slightly above anticipated successes but NOT above potential success) if and only if they have willpower to burn (basically a solar can be maximally competent sustainably literally all day long, a dragonblood can be maximally competent once or twice an hour, and a sidereal can be maximally competent once or twice a day).

For non-mundane tasks of the sort purely GENERATED by charms, yes, the natural order is in place. But for purely mundane tasks, celestials are at the bottom rather than the middle.

Edit: Huh, somehow I had missed that sidereals could add successes up to essence...

[Guancyto]

Ah, Alchemicals also get a dice cap of (Attribute), but they can hook up 4th Augmentations to get their pools up to 1 die lower than Solars at Ess 3 (7 att + 5 abil + 3 spec + 7 ex = 22) Or, at Essence 5, 1 higher (8 att/5abil/3spec/8ex = 24). At Essence 2 though yes, they are at 20.

Which makes sense. Hyperspecialized loadout is hyperspecialized, and like Dragon-Bloods, their mote pools aren't very large.

For extended tasks at low-essence they are amazing, though; their Infinite Mastery-equivalent only requires Essence 1 and unlike everyone else's (except a Dragon-Blood's, amusingly), doesn't require comboing to benefit from if using other charms in tandem.

[golentan]

Ah, Alchemicals also get a dice cap of (Attribute), but they can hook up 4th Augmentations to get their pools up to 1 die lower than Solars at Ess 3 (7 att + 5 abil + 3 spec + 7 ex = 22) Or, at Essence 5, 1 higher (8 att/5abil/3spec/8ex = 24). At Essence 2 though yes, they are at 20.

Which makes sense. Hyperspecialized loadout is hyperspecialized, and like Dragon-Bloods, their mote pools aren't very large.

For extended tasks at low-essence they are amazing, though; their Infinite Mastery-equivalent only requires Essence 1 and unlike everyone else's, doesn't require comboing to benefit from if using other charms in tandem.

Okay, now I'm just feeling embarrassed. I had remembered to spec the alchemical with 8 dice as a result of 1st/5th augmentations, but forgotten to factor in the +3 attribute from fourth augmentation that raised the cap to 8.

Just going crazy here, don't mind me.

[Guancyto]

Heh, well, if we're going with 'maximum pre-elder,' the Solabyssafernals get Glory to the Most High/that one mirror/Ascendancy Mantle and come out on top again with 27 dice. :3

...

*gives golentan a kitten*

[Kyeudo]

Everyone forgets that Lunars can jump their dice limit to (Essence + Attribute) using Fury or its equivalents, which puts them as actually beating Solar dice pools for short periods.

[golentan]

Thank you. I need comfort food sometimes, but I'll save this one for later *stores kitten Elsewhere*

[Lix Lorn]

._.
I'll trade you a Lixie for the poor kitten.

[golentan]

Dammit, my bluff's been called. I wouldn't actually eat the kitten, but I have a reputation to protect. That said, if you'd like to GIVE me a lixie rather than trade, I can always pet two... kitties...

[Lix Lorn]

Oh golly. You can have a lixie just by offering hugs. <3 It's like you're using puppy-eyed-prana all the time.

[meschlum]

So it's numbers, now?

First of all, do note that any Dragonblood who comes to an understanding with the Wyld can swear to an Adjuration granting Surpassing Excellence, which is an extra 2 dice Specialty - increasing their Ability + Specialty pool to 10 with all the fun that implies (for 1 committed mote per two Specialties).

Second, the Errata for Fair Folk specifies that they cannot add more dice than their Essence to non-shaping actions. It says nothing about successes.


On to details!

Since the Raksha are limited by Essence, a range of dice pools is possible.

Commoner: Base pool of 14 dice (4 Attribute + 7 Ability + 3 Specialty), plus Essence.

Noble: Base pool of 17 dice (7/7/3), plus Essence.

Of course, the Noble baseline is actually low, since there are such things as Charms, Artifacts, and Items.

Let's ignore Charms and Items for now.

Surpassing Excellence gives another 2 dice as a Specialty, and fits (twice) in a 1-dot Adjuration. These are not Charm-based dice.
Glorious Hero Form gives 1 die (from Charms) to the Attribute(s) of your choice, and fits in a 1-dot Adjuration.
Sovereign Element Form and its Merged analogs gives 3 dice (from Charms) to a Specialty, and fits (3 times) in a 1-dot Oneiromancy.

So a Noble who wants to specialize is up to 19 dice + Essence, for 2 committed motes (or 5 if committing the motes for the Oneiromancy, which saves a background dot from Retinue). That's 21 dice at character creation. All the time.

Next, we climb up the Essence tree.

Essence 3 opens up Heart Stopping Numinous Power, which raises our effective Essence by 2 - so suddenly we need answers.

If the dice from Sovereign Element Form stack between different versions ("My sword is as light as the wind AND my martial skill is enhanced by my foolish bravery"), one can get up to +9 dice (from Charms) in a single Oneiromancy, so long as all conditions are followed. For Fair Folk, the (Essence) limit keeps this sane. For Exalts...

Therefore, we are mean to the poor Raksha, and assume that they can only get +4 dice all the time (3 from Oneiromancy, 1 from Hero Form), meaning a constant pool of 23 dice (in a specialty) at Essence 4+ (or 3+ with Heart Stopping Numinous Power).

At most, barring further Charm use, an Essence 5 God Monster will get up to 26 dice, though the mote cost is rather steep given limited pool size.


Now let's talk about Items.

The mechanics for gossamer items have not been changed by the Errata. Therefore, if one were to create a gossamer version of a Perfect tool costing Resources 5, the gossamer item grants 7 dice (2 from Perfect and 5 from Gossamer) to associated uses. This costs 5 gossamer and takes a season for a Worker to make.

Translucent Dream Sheathing Technology mostly gives others penalties, but it also gives a 1-die Wyld bonus to proper uses, so that's another die.

Thus, using Wyld equipment, anyone can stack on another 8 dice to their mundane ability use. This does not apply to weapons or armor, (un)fortunately. Dodge and the properties of Perfect Gossamer Shields are undefined.


Then we have Charms.

A stunt pool combined with Wyld Communion means many rolls that matter (in Creation) get +2 dice each, from Stunts - so stacking with everything. Unassailable Tower of Gossamer makes these 2 successes instead, but that's somewhat pointless.

Assumption of Dreams and Passion gives an automatic success to all social rolls that relate to the emotion being used. Combine that with Hiding The Wyld's Touch, and you have +3 automatic (always on) successes to all social rolls. Remember, successes from Charms do not count against the Fair Folk limit...

Soul Consuming Hunger gives you +1 to an Attribute (from Charms) for a day, but requires being in the Wyld or having access to a Chancel.

Aegis of a Martial Destiny gives you an automatic success to all rolls involving following the Intimacy of your choice.

Creator's Fugue is another automatic success for creating new things.

Mutations, from Transformation, Bestial Form, or Grotesquerie Shell, can all give you a few more dice for specific tasks.

You're probably not going to manage to get and stack all of these, but it's a few cheap successes and dice if you're interested.


So an Essence 4 Raksha lord who is serious about a non-combat task can come in with 31 dice all the time, 33 dice more or less at will during a scene (Stunt Pool, Stunt rating 3+), and an automatic success or two if required. Social combat experts are even better.

If conflict turns up, it's only 24 dice all the time, one automatic success, two more dice pretty much at will (by declaring that "I attack" is a Stunt) (these dice could be turned into automatic successes instead, for 1 gossamer. Gossamer is cheap), and a few extra bonuses from having a Gossamer weapon. Such as +1 Attack / Defense, so effectively another die.

Which means he can reach an effective dice pool of 27, for what it's worth. Or more, if the Raksha is in All Consuming God Monster Stance and wants to spend motes.

[Hiro Protagonest]

What's this "Exalted Modern" that comes up in this thread occasionally? As far as I can gather, it's a homebrew setting + rules floating somewhere in cyberspace.

[Andreaz]

What's this "Exalted Modern" that comes up in this thread occasionally? As far as I can gather, it's a homebrew setting + rules floating somewhere in cyberspace.

More of a popular concept, playing in a much later, earhtly age. The upcoming book Shards of Exalted Dreams will very, very likely include such a setting.

[Hiro Protagonest]

More of a popular concept, playing in a much later, earhtly age. The upcoming book Shards of Exalted Dreams will very, very likely include such a setting.

That was the other possibility I gathered, that it was official stuff, but not yet created.

So is Shards of Exalted Dreams going to be a bunch of random stuff for those that want to play something other than the core setting?

...Is there going to be the puppyxalted?

[aetherialDawn]

...Is there going to be the puppyxalted?

I've already got a word document with several pages on Ponyxalted...

[tonberrian]

That was the other possibility I gathered, that it was official stuff, but not yet created.

So is Shards of Exalted Dreams going to be a bunch of random stuff for those that want to play something other than the core setting?

Yes. We've got Modern and Space Opera confirmed. Apparently, there's going to be 4 major alternate settings, then a whole bunch of smaller changes.

[Turalisj]

When Shards comes out, I'm going to run a Space Opera game.... You have my promise on that

[Lord Raziere]

Space Opera…..hmm….

I'm guessing the Primordials would be some big hive mind alien life forms who use some great technology to create smaller life forms….

The Gods would instead be AI with robotic bodies that create the Exalted through some mobile super-advanced cybernetic implantations…..

The Neverborn would be some sort of life forms dependent on harnessing energies from Black holes to survive and black constantly need more things to be eaten by said black holes, and therefore made the Abyssals to do that….

the Infernals would of course get strange mutagenic implantations that allow them to manipulate their own biology….

Sidereals would probably be hackers of the universal internet…..

Dragon-Blooded would be a cheaper but more efficiently produced super-soldier whose implantation is genetic…..

Creation would be some galaxy…..and Raksha would just be aliens, from other ones.

Alchemicals? they are robots of course.

hm, what does it say about me that I can understand Exalted better when you couch it scientific terms and look at it like an extremely advanced sci-fi setting rather than fantasy?

[Turalisj]

It means you are a sci-fi nerd first, a fantasy nerd second.

[Lord Raziere]

Yes, well I did make my sci-fi setting before I made my fantasy setting so yeah….that makes sense.

the problem with that, is that a vast majority of the roleplay characters I've made are fantasy, when I can't seem to come up with as many sci-fi ones. Which is weird.

this is also off topic…..but there is also the fact that sci-fi settings seem to be rarer in roleplay or played not as often. why is that?

[Cyborg Mage]

So yeah. Having finally gotten bored of NEVER PLAYING A GAME, I've decided to take the matter into my own hands and try to ST. As you can imagine, this MIIIGHT be difficult with such little experience with the mechanics, so if anyone would like to co-GM and help out with the crunch and the like, that would be great. If you are, tell me and I'll drop you a PM with a few of the campaigns I have planned.

[Drascin]

So yeah. Having finally gotten bored of NEVER PLAYING A GAME, I've decided to take the matter into my own hands and try to ST. As you can imagine, this MIIIGHT be difficult with such little experience with the mechanics, so if anyone would like to co-GM and help out with the crunch and the like, that would be great. If you are, tell me and I'll drop you a PM with a few of the campaigns I have planned.

You poor, brave bastard. Good luck!

[Turalisj]

So yeah. Having finally gotten bored of NEVER PLAYING A GAME, I've decided to take the matter into my own hands and try to ST. As you can imagine, this MIIIGHT be difficult with such little experience with the mechanics, so if anyone would like to co-GM and help out with the crunch and the like, that would be great. If you are, tell me and I'll drop you a PM with a few of the campaigns I have planned.

What kind of game and where? I've pretty much stopped playing games on these boards, because the forums never wants to work.

I do know of two games that are pretty much always recruiting.... one of them being mine.

[Volthawk]

So yeah. Having finally gotten bored of NEVER PLAYING A GAME, I've decided to take the matter into my own hands and try to ST. As you can imagine, this MIIIGHT be difficult with such little experience with the mechanics, so if anyone would like to co-GM and help out with the crunch and the like, that would be great. If you are, tell me and I'll drop you a PM with a few of the campaigns I have planned.

Sure, I'll be alright with co-STing and helping you out with the crunch and stuff.