General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

[aetherialDawn]

Because we cannot discuss the religions of earth, we instead discuss the religions and philosophies of creation drawing our ammo from the philosophy of earth. We argue because some of us conflate the primordials with our Gods while others conflate them with our Demons. Neither is right. Neither is wrong. So we argue endlessly while the sun burns out.

The idea that neither is right and neither is wrong seems somewhat ridiculous to me. We clearly don't know enough to make a statement as a group on whether one is right or wrong - so we certainly can't say because of that they they aren't either of those options.
That would be lazy thinking.
(Pet peeve button pressed)

Also, do you just mean that religion is important to humans, and the Primordials are the most religious element of Exalted (given that the Gods are rather concrete and even somewhat simplistic in some cases)?
I can't quite figure out what you actually mean.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Rockphed, I too don't understand ... when our world's religions got mixed into Exalted setting ?

I am merely trying to think, given my omni-knowledge when compared to the beings of Exaltverse to think about a simple question.

What is better for Creation ? Answer is simple to that one, return of Primordials because without them Creation is apparently falling apart. Slowly, yes, but even Raksha noticed how weak it become.

Since it is stated by authors that there is no good/evil in the Exaltverse I judge righteousness of the Exalted and other beings inside Exaltverse by the results of their actions.

Unconquered Sun is called perfect embodiment of virtues, while his actions as written seem to indicate that this presumption is as true as Ebon Dragon's selflessness. And so on, continuing along the splats and history of horror and betrayals that Exalted universe's back-story is.

[TheCountAlucard]

What is better for Creation ? Answer is simple to that one, return of Primordials because without them Creation is apparently falling apart.

...not quite. If they Yozis were set free, they'd pretty much set fire to Creation.

[Volthawk]

I know I wouldn't want, say, Adorjan running around Creation.

[Rockphed]

Rockphed, I too don't understand ... when our world's religions got mixed into Exalted setting ?

People in this thread are discussing the primordials in much the same terms used to discuss theology on earth. Some of the people are treating them much the same way theologians treat Gods. Others are treating them the way theologians treat demons (or the type of Gods you don't invite to parties if you can help it). The end result is that neither side can agree with the other because the two paradigms do not mix well. Well, there is the whole "Gods you don't invite to parties if you can help it" angle, but even that constricts in a way that doesn't do exalted primordials justice.

The idea that neither is right and neither is wrong seems somewhat ridiculous to me.

Of course it is ridiculous! If it were not ridiculous it would do a poor job describing the arguments in this thread and their endless and eternal round robin of primordial pickering!

Alternatively, consider that for most of exalted, being right or wrong is orthogonal to the characters and creatures of creation.

[Gensh]

The idea that neither is right and neither is wrong seems somewhat ridiculous to me. We clearly don't know enough to make a statement as a group on whether one is right or wrong - so we certainly can't say because of that they they aren't either of those options.
That would be lazy thinking.

A lack of objective morality inherently means that neither side is right. To Sol, repressing Virtue is wrong; to Malfeas, disobedience. The only things anyone agrees on is that the raksha need to be gotten rid of and the Dragon is a terrible person. And while additional evidence would be nice - a Glories: Yozis or a Scroll of First Age Exalts - we can always pass judgment for the time being and adjust with new information. Now, while a person cannot be strictly right or wrong, the same cannot always be said for actions, and even when something is morally gray, one can break down the elements of said actions and judge those individually.

...not quite. If they Yozis were set free, they'd pretty much set fire to Creation.

They'd set fire to Creation as Creation, yes. In the long run, however, it would not suffer the gradually encroaching final dissolution into either of the Wyld or Oblivion. And of course, there's also the modified version of the plan wherein the Yozis are taught to not kill things if they can't help it. It would likely take centuries, yes, but it's still better than leaving the ones who could best repair Creation locked away forever. And then there's my other plan wherein we convince Malfeas that being clingy is unmanly and go joyriding through Elsewhere while Creation goes under. Part of the problem is that the Exalted Host had in-depth intel on the Primordials and still locked away the "nice" ones. SWLIHN was basically offering to be their roomba, and they still refused; with her, perhaps the spread of Shadowlands would have been halted - oh, wait, it was the Solars who were spreading them.

[aetherialDawn]

They'd set fire to Creation as Creation, yes. In the long run, however, it would not suffer the gradually encroaching final dissolution into either of the Wyld or Oblivion. And of course, there's also the modified version of the plan wherein the Solars are taught to not kill things if they can't help it. It would likely take centuries, yes, but it's still better than leaving the ones who could best repair Creation locked away forever. And then there's my other plan wherein we convince The Solars that being clingy is unmanly and go joyriding through Elsewhere while Creation goes under. Part of the problem is that the Sidereals had in-depth intel on the Solars and still locked away the "nice" ones.

Fixed that for you. I'm sorry to be a bit snippy like this, but I don't consider this statement of possibility to be evidence, simply because I can do that simple word-replacement to it.

Do you have examples of what the Primordials/Yozis can and would do, or how they can be changed by charms (since they keep their themes)? I think the SWLiHN example is a good one - she was at least willing to join a new Hierarchy. I'm not sure if that can still be done, since she did the Three Spheres Cataclysm thing...

A point of note, though: The in-depth intel you mention, I don't recall that existing. I was fairly sure that the Soalrs were figuring out the Primordials even as they were fighting them; they weren't privy to the full charmset of Szoreny, for instance.

[Gensh]

Fixed that for you. I'm sorry to be a bit snippy like this, but I don't consider this statement of possibility to be evidence, simply because I can do that simple word-replacement to it.

Oh, go ahead. It's a fair point. As with most forms of media, the instinctual reaction to anything is to blow it up or whatnot. I point out the failure to do anything appropriate with the Primordials because it's amusing that the Exalted Host as a whole are simply that terrible - both Hell and the Jade Prison are confinements designed to last forever when the very embodiment of rage only condemns his worst enemies to 10,000 years of torment. As Hell has stood for 5,000 years, that means that the First Agers were at least half as bad as Malfeas.

Do you have examples of what the Primordials/Yozis can and would do, or how they can be changed by charms (since they keep their themes)? I think the SWLiHN example is a good one - she was at least willing to join a new Hierarchy. I'm not sure if that can still be done, since she did the Three Spheres Cataclysm thing...

Malfeas: Kingship and glory. Rule through charisma rather than brute force, being generally inspirational. Fires turned toward forging such greatness as the Unconquered Sun, being the crucible that forges the souls of heroes. Guide his rage from specific targets to traitors and threats to Creation in general, make him Holy again.
Cecelyne: Representation and support of the monarchy. The strong may make the rules, but if one of the strong insists that none of the weak under him may be harmed and beats the daylights out of anyone who says otherwise, then perhaps that is lawful as well.
SWLIHN: Nothing actually needs to be changed here, beyond convincing her that Free Will is actually useful at times. Three Spheres Cataclysm was likely a Limit Break, and those don't turn out well regardless of who's Breaking. She'd certainly be more reluctant to join a new hierarchy, but if you get Malfeas on board, you get her on board for free.
Adorjan: Little needs to be changed here. Since there's not much that can be done about her killing people by accident, I'd attempt to associate her with the freedom from earthly torments by having her Charms create "special" ghosts like those on the Daystar.
Ebon Dragon: He has his uses, but let's try to keep him away from anything important.
Kimbery: Not that bad, all things considered. Just get her to be a little less poisonous.
Szoreny: Absolutely nothing wrong with this guy, aside from him patiently plotting revenge for being shattered. While that may have warped his perspective even more than it already was, it also made him more easily able to understand the little things, like humans.
Isidoros: Challenge him to be completely awesome in a humaniform jouten that doesn't accidentally kill everything. Done. If he says that's boring, let him mess with the Sidereals from time to time.
Qaf: Seems pretty content off to himself. Nothing needs to be done.
Metagaos: Creation's garbage disposal? I have no idea what to do with this guy.
Oramus: Send him out into the Wyld to find himself or else make him some sort of scientific assistant. He's too destablizing an effect on Creation to give him that much freedom.
Cytherea: Well, from the two or so things we know about her, she doesn't seem bad.
Sacheverell: As punishment for crimes against Creation, the leaders of the Bronze Faction are forced to take turns reading him bedtime stories until the end of time.

A point of note, though: The in-depth intel you mention, I don't recall that existing. I was fairly sure that the Soalrs were figuring out the Primordials even as they were fighting them; they weren't privy to the full charmset of Szoreny, for instance.

Well, the Sids worked under the Primordials. Sure, it was mainly the Maidens who were supervising them, but that was the whole point in their being revealed early - to gather crucial information, such as weaknesses and the locations of vital souls. This, of course, would necessitate in-depth observation, as I seriously doubt the Primordials would have files on each other when there's like 30 of them total. At the very least, they would know that SWLIHN would be incapable of betraying them and legitimately wanted to be Rosie from the Jetsons, and even then, the Solars who fought Szoreny should have been able to tell that he was just playing with them (though I can see smashing him out of aggravation at it).

[Mr.Bookworm]

I'm still finding little hidden references on my third read-through of Masters of Jade.

Compelled by what she once was, the Warlock touched her, and lit her hollow mind with a spark that once fired the universe.

It's fun!

[Yozi change snip]

The problem with this is that you really can't massively alter huge chunks of a Yozi's personality like that while leaving them intact, and even if you could, letting them free after this would be, well, uh, have you ever read/seen A Clockwork Orange? That's like the best case scenario, too.

No, as always in Exalted, gratuitous violence is the best answer. Kill those subsouls of a Yozi that represent concepts undesirable to you and then chuck their fetich down the Maw of Oblivion. Repeat with the new Yozi you get, until you've pruned it to an acceptable state.

I made a Sidereal Martial Art!
...Well, up to the Form anyway.
Comments?

wheeeeeeeeeee

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Unending Wellspring of Questions Style

Incredibly minor nitpick (I live for them), but generally, all Sidereal Martial Arts go [Color] [Noun] of [Noun]. There are a couple of exceptions (Borders of Kaleidoscopic Logic, Scarlet-Patterned Battlefield), but even they just switch the order around a bit.

I just generally like that because it provides an instant thematic and visual association for the Charms and users of that style. Even if it does paint Sidereal Martial Arts as being the Kool-Aid of Exalted.

Fortunately, the practitioners of the style may, with study, learn to use any weapon with it: Only weapons in which the practitioner has at least a 1 dot lore specialty may be used with the style, as the Martial Artist channels the questions about their equipment their study has opened up to them.

Unless you specifically design the entire style around this single paragraph, this is a bad idea. Styles need to be balanced around what weapons they have access to. It also provides a nearly mandatory incentive to use one of your very limited specialties in something you probably don't want a specialty in, which is badwrongunfun.

It's not a horrible idea from a thematic standpoint, but ultimately, just "no weapons and armor" is a lot simpler. Either that, or figure out what weapons make thematic sense for the style.

Sutra: This Martial Art does not gain the usual cost reduction from sidereal prayer strips, those magical bands instead granting a bonus to those charms with the Sutra keyword.

This confused the hell out of me until I realized you were just using Revlid's sutra system (although he might use that wording too, I can't remember).

Arrogant Assertion of Knowledge

Alright. First Charm.

*cracks knuckles*

Alright, first, the minimums here and on most of the Charms afterwards are kind of bizarre. SMAs pre-elder Essence generally require 5 dots of MA, with very few exceptions. Two months of karate don't cut it.

Second: Bluntly, this feels both a little bland and a little overpowered. You have a good opening in this Charm, but then the crunch is just "I find out his numbers", which is pretty boring. It's overpowered because while it's boring, "I find out his numbers" with no restrictions is extraordinarily useful.

Thirdly, this is tied exclusively to Join Battle rolls, which means your scholar has to start a fistfight if he wants to learn something about someone.

Compare Into Infinite Depths from Sapphire Veils of Passion for a similar Charm.

Suggestion: I would decouple it from Join Battle and make the info-gaining more rough. Possibly you just know if the target's rating is equal, lesser, or greater than your rating in the trait. Or you could do a sliding scale, with a narrative descriptor (a 0 is "unskilled", a 1-2 is "some knowledge", a 3-4 is "great knowledge", a 5 is "mastery", and a 6+ is "superhuman", or whatever).

Revealing Untrue Truths

I agree with Tavar's analysis of this. This is either useless or overpowered, with pretty much no middle ground. I'd just scrap this, honestly. Turn delaying effects are a very thorny can of worms.

Disregarding Frivolous Distractions(reword for clarity)

Noooooooooooooo.

This isn't Maiden-and-Gambler Stance, but "I ignore everything" is not an effect that has a place in Exalted. Passive perfects are a really bad place to go. Even without the legalistic loopholes that the task-naming leaves open, I would just scrap it.

Mental Blow Method

This... probably has some balance problems, but my main problem with it is that it honestly strikes me as rather bland.

Overall, one thing this style could use is a dose of WTF-ness added to it. Take a look at the canonical Sidereal styles (even the mechanically broken ones have some wonderful ideas in them). They do some truly weird stuff.

Inner Wealth Revealed

Mmm. This is kind of okay, although I will admit to being inherently biased against instant Artifact creation Charms. I also have my previously mentioned problems with the base weapon system in this style. The limits prevent this from being too broken (although those go away).

My main problem with this is that an ax-wielder is pulling Death at the Root out of his ass, not a true reflection of his inner self and the questions he asks (still pulling it out of his ass, though). It's also coupled to combat, again. While SMAs need to have some basis in the combat system (being martial arts and all), they can afford to stray much farther afield.

Unending Wellspring of Questions Form

This Charm needs the Emotion keyword or something similar (some way to defend against it's effects). Otherwise, looks fine to me. It's powerful, but then SMA forms are supposed to be. The final effect probably needs wording to the effect of "this is reflexive", though.

---

Overall, I like the basic ideas you've got going on here. Has a few balance problems and could use some weirdness added, but keep moving forward! I'll go over the rest of the Charms whenever you post them up (and these again, if you redo them).

Oh, and I like the sutra.

Incidentally, if you could reduce the theme/message of this style to four or five words, what would it be? Most of the SMAs tend to have pretty strong messages that come across, about the true nature of the universe. "Love is enslavement", "identity is illusion", and so on. I find it a good place to start from when you look at an SMA. Just curious.

[Xefas]

So, the general vibe I'm getting is that no one thinks it would be the morally right thing to do to just free all the titans without reconfiguring them in any way, and just skipping town to your vacation house made entirely of chocolate and french maids (or whatever) in the Wyld and let things sort themselves out?

Cause I think things would eventually sort themselves out.

[meschlum]

So, the general vibe I'm getting is that no one thinks it would be the morally right thing to do to just free all the titans without reconfiguring them in any way, and just skipping town to your vacation house made entirely of chocolate and french maids (or whatever) in the Wyld and let things sort themselves out?

Cause I think things would eventually sort themselves out.

The Fair Folk approve of this plan. With the refinement of evacuating as many snacks innocent mortals beforehand, of course. See my sporadic babbling about the Far Folk, which rely on a synergistic relationship between Raksha and humans to attain exponential (or faster) growth, post-scarcity for all, and being Very Far Away from Creation when it implodes / explodes / turns into the Yozi's playground / whatever.

One does have to deal with (vanishingly rare) infestations of Exalts, but those are fairly quickly contained - the Exalts are free to wander about ruling whatever they want, the Raksha and mortals just evacuate faster.

[Dragnar]

wheeeeeeeeeee

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!

Spoiler

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Incredibly minor nitpick (I live for them), but generally, all Sidereal Martial Arts go [Color] [Noun] of [Noun]. There are a couple of exceptions (Borders of Kaleidoscopic Logic, Scarlet-Patterned Battlefield), but even they just switch the order around a bit.

I just generally like that because it provides an instant thematic and visual association for the Charms and users of that style. Even if it does paint Sidereal Martial Arts as being the Kool-Aid of Exalted.

I suppose I can think about changing it. But on the other hand, I love striking down naming conventions!
/me wields a vorpal sword of +2 name-slaying.

Unless you specifically design the entire style around this single paragraph, this is a bad idea. Styles need to be balanced around what weapons they have access to. It also provides a nearly mandatory incentive to use one of your very limited specialties in something you probably don't want a specialty in, which is badwrongunfun.

It's not a horrible idea from a thematic standpoint, but ultimately, just "no weapons and armor" is a lot simpler. Either that, or figure out what weapons make thematic sense for the style.

Fair enough. I suppose no weapons/armor would be fine... but I can't think of any weapon that really suits it past that.

This confused the hell out of me until I realized you were just using Revlid's sutra system (although he might use that wording too, I can't remember).

Yeah, it's pretty much Revlid's version. Just not called out as that, because I'd rather not make people refer to another document for something so simple.

Alright, first, the minimums here and on most of the Charms afterwards are kind of bizarre. SMAs pre-elder Essence generally require 5 dots of MA, with very few exceptions. Two months of karate don't cut it.

Heh, I'll give you that. I'll bump up the MA requirements on some of the lower ones before adding some post-form stuff.

Second: Bluntly, this feels both a little bland and a little overpowered. You have a good opening in this Charm, but then the crunch is just "I find out his numbers", which is pretty boring. It's overpowered because while it's boring, "I find out his numbers" with no restrictions is extraordinarily useful.

Thirdly, this is tied exclusively to Join Battle rolls, which means your scholar has to start a fistfight if he wants to learn something about someone.

Compare Into Infinite Depths from Sapphire Veils of Passion for a similar Charm.

Suggestion: I would decouple it from Join Battle and make the info-gaining more rough. Possibly you just know if the target's rating is equal, lesser, or greater than your rating in the trait. Or you could do a sliding scale, with a narrative descriptor (a 0 is "unskilled", a 1-2 is "some knowledge", a 3-4 is "great knowledge", a 5 is "mastery", and a 6+ is "superhuman", or whatever).

All good suggestions. I'll take a look at it, possibly broaden the times it can be used, and go with the "equal/lesser/greater" thing.

I agree with Tavar's analysis of this. This is either useless or overpowered, with pretty much no middle ground. I'd just scrap this, honestly. Turn delaying effects are a very thorny can of worms.

Fair enough. I like the idea, and will try to keep it around... but I certainly see how it could be problematic.

Noooooooooooooo.

This isn't Maiden-and-Gambler Stance, but "I ignore everything" is not an effect that has a place in Exalted. Passive perfects are a really bad place to go. Even without the legalistic loopholes that the task-naming leaves open, I would just scrap it.

Oh? Darn. That's my favorite charm in the style... and, admittedly, the hardest to balance. I'd hoped it's relatively short duration mostly made up for how massive a power it is, as well as something that cancels Shaping making it a waste of WP.

This... probably has some balance problems, but my main problem with it is that it honestly strikes me as rather bland.

Overall, one thing this style could use is a dose of WTF-ness added to it. Take a look at the canonical Sidereal styles (even the mechanically broken ones have some wonderful ideas in them). They do some truly weird stuff.

True, it's not nearly as esoteric as most SMA. Mostly because... well, the weirder the effect, the trickier balance becomes. I'll certainly be going into weirder stuff for the post-form charms, but I would like to keep everything up to that SOMEWHAT sane. For my sanity as much as anything else.

Mmm. This is kind of okay, although I will admit to being inherently biased against instant Artifact creation Charms. I also have my previously mentioned problems with the base weapon system in this style. The limits prevent this from being too broken (although those go away).

My main problem with this is that an ax-wielder is pulling Death at the Root out of his ass, not a true reflection of his inner self and the questions he asks (still pulling it out of his ass, though). It's also coupled to combat, again. While SMAs need to have some basis in the combat system (being martial arts and all), they can afford to stray much farther afield.

This charm was, by far, the one I was most worried about being just... boring. It's deep enough in the tree that it has no right to be, but I kinda had a brainfart while trying to come up with more interesting effects for it.

This Charm needs the Emotion keyword or something similar (some way to defend against it's effects). Otherwise, looks fine to me. It's powerful, but then SMA forms are supposed to be. The final effect probably needs wording to the effect of "this is reflexive", though.

Ooh, good catch. I'd thought I had some way of defending in there, but a closer look reveals I missed that bit. >.<

Overall, I like the basic ideas you've got going on here. Has a few balance problems and could use some weirdness added, but keep moving forward! I'll go over the rest of the Charms whenever you post them up (and these again, if you redo them).

Oh, and I like the sutra.

Incidentally, if you could reduce the theme/message of this style to four or five words, what would it be? Most of the SMAs tend to have pretty strong messages that come across, about the true nature of the universe. "Love is enslavement", "identity is illusion", and so on. I find it a good place to start from when you look at an SMA. Just curious.

Thanks on the sutra. It's gone through several revisions, with help from a few different people. I like how it came out though! I'll work on adding you an Tavar's changes in... at some point. (damn you college classes!) Then it's on to the post-form stuff!
As for a theme... Something along the lines of "Mysteries are greater than knowledge".

[golentan]

So, the general vibe I'm getting is that no one thinks it would be the morally right thing to do to just free all the titans without reconfiguring them in any way, and just skipping town to your vacation house made entirely of chocolate and french maids (or whatever) in the Wyld and let things sort themselves out?

Cause I think things would eventually sort themselves out.

I think things would eventually sort themselves out, yes, but I also think millions would die as a result (likely including a few more primordials). And I don't like that idea. I want my beloved SWLiHN to survive forever.

I favor immediately releasing the primordials to a designated "safe area" where they can take their leisure and experiment, and (should they agree to reparative therapy) eventually expanding that area as they progress in their ability to demonstrate a lack of murder-rage (using the games of divinity as the final carrot waiting for them at the end of their road to recovery).

[Drascin]

So, the general vibe I'm getting is that no one thinks it would be the morally right thing to do to just free all the titans without reconfiguring them in any way, and just skipping town to your vacation house made entirely of chocolate and french maids (or whatever) in the Wyld and let things sort themselves out?

Cause I think things would eventually sort themselves out.

The chances of just freeing them working out for anyone except the Yozis themselves seem about as high as winning all the lotteries in the world in the same day, honestly. Releasing a bunch of hateful selfish pricks that want revenge on everything that isn't them with no safeguards does not seem a good way to go about things.

[Lord Raziere]

That and, yea sure the Yozis could improve Creation with their Primordial architect-of-the-universe powers.

But any such "improvements" and repairs they would make would inevitably come with Yozi baggage. sure She Who Lives probably would get rid of the Shadowlands, and the Wyld, fix up Fate and such….but would probably drastically alter Creation while doing it, and wouldn't be Creation as we would recognize it- and thats assuming we find a way to keep her from getting rid of free will.

and all along the way of such drastic alterations, there is going to be consequences- the ecosystem would go bonkers, maps would have to be redrawn, geography would be completely different, communities would be in different places and so on and so forth and would probably cause more chaos than order in the process, as your tampering with a lot of delicate economical and social stuff and so on.

If Solars are using a hammer to solve Creations problems……the Yozis or Infernals are like using a nuclear bomb to solve them. even bigger, even flashier, causes a lot of collateral damage and fallout in the process, and is even less discriminate, and more limited to boot.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Lord Raziere, I think You are mistaking Yozis with Primordials again. With being so powerful as them a slight difference ... equivalent of human cutting his hair short, is very significant to the gnats around the world.

Also to address Your concerns. Primordials are necessary for Creation's survival. Humans are not. Even Gods are there to work instead Primordials. All the damage done to humans and their works is long term inconsequential.

[TheCountAlucard]

You... Your...

Why do you keep capitalizing it like that? Raziere's not God. That would be such a hackneyed plot twist that I completely refuse to consider it...

[Andreaz]

No, as always in Exalted, gratuitous violence is the best answer. Kill those subsouls of a Yozi that represent concepts undesirable to you and then chuck their fetich down the Maw of Oblivion. Repeat with the new Yozi you get, until you've pruned it to an acceptable state.

That's incorrect. Violence is always an answer, but not the bests answer. See the Usurpation, for example.

[MickJay]

Why do you keep capitalizing it like that? Raziere's not God. That would be such a hackneyed plot twist that I completely refuse to consider it...

Addressing another person with a capital letter (as in: 'You') is, in some languages, just being polite or respectful. It took me a while to stop doing that in English

[Lord Raziere]

Why do you keep capitalizing it like that? Raziere's not God. That would be such a hackneyed plot twist that I completely refuse to consider it...

Yes, as much as I wish it were so, alas, 'tis not to be.

Mostly because if I was god, the planet would be full of catgirls by now while I live in a flying palace made out of crystal, changing the laws of physics to be however I want to make the world more awesome, but I digress.

I'm not mistaking Yozis for Primordials. They're the same. There is no metaphysical difference, Yozi is just a political term. The Yozis are still just as powerful as they always were, their charm sets just changed. The fact that they can't truly create anything new is not some unique important metaphysical difference. It just means that their Excellencies don't cover something that they used cover anymore, since they have been changed into different excellencies. Instead of true creation, you have revenge in the excellency.
Not that big of a deal. They are not lesser from their change, just different. Different in a way thats bad for everyone else, but still just as powerful.

[Xefas]

The chances of just freeing them working out for anyone except the Yozis themselves seem about as high as winning all the lotteries in the world in the same day, honestly.

You say this like it's a bad thing.

[Guancyto]

So, the general vibe I'm getting is that no one thinks it would be the morally right thing to do to just free all the titans without reconfiguring them in any way, and just skipping town to your vacation house made entirely of chocolate and french maids (or whatever) in the Wyld and let things sort themselves out?

Cause I think things would eventually sort themselves out.

I think it would probably result in the deaths of at least several of the remaining Yozi, including the ones I actually like and probably not including the dickish, cowardly one?

In fact, I kind of see the cowardly one having the same idea, and the last thing I want in my vacation house made entirely out of chocolate and staffed entirely with maids is the goddamned Ebon Dragon.

YCMV

Edit: What golentan said, basically. That'll teach me to read the entire thread.

[Gensh]

The chances of just freeing them working out for anyone except the Yozis themselves seem about as high as winning all the lotteries in the world in the same day, honestly. Releasing a bunch of hateful selfish pricks that want revenge on everything that isn't them with no safeguards does not seem a good way to go about things.

But everyone in Exalted is a hateful selfish prick. Considering the scale of things, I'd rather have twenty-three hidebound overlords than seven hundred loose cannons. And who said anything about having no safeguards?

Also to address Your concerns. Primordials are necessary for Creation's survival. Humans are not. Even Gods are there to work instead Primordials. All the damage done to humans and their works is long term inconsequential.

It's not that Primordials are strictly necessary, so much as they know how to fix things now rather than later, and humans have a terribad track record. Primordials as a species (kind of, anyway) look at the big picture - even the Dragon can stop himself from kicking a puppy if he absolutely has to. Humans, with their pitiful lifespan, focus on the immediate, even when gifted with a few thousand years. While this means rapid development, it also causes critical shortsightedness, and since there are so many humans, oversight is difficult.

I'm not mistaking Yozis for Primordials. They're the same. There is no metaphysical difference, Yozi is just a political term. The Yozis are still just as powerful as they always were, their charm sets just changed. The fact that they can't truly create anything new is not some unique important metaphysical difference. It just means that their Excellencies don't cover something that they used cover anymore, since they have been changed into different excellencies. Instead of true creation, you have revenge in the excellency.
Not that big of a deal. They are not lesser from their change, just different. Different in a way thats bad for everyone else, but still just as powerful.

This hits the nail on the head - the manner in which the Yozis were broken is such that they can no longer think beyond human understanding and they may no longer create anything truly new, both measures to prevent a second War. As a result, however, they are much less useful in repairing Creation than they would have been otherwise. This is why the ideal plan involves getting them to cool their heads and having GSPs modify the composition of their Charmsets. If Malfeas' trees are something like 20% Kingship, 20% City-Armor, and 60% Nuclear Rage, then it's just a matter of overflowing the first two categories such that Nuclear Rage is no longer his go-to response, and even modifying the rage such that it's more potent if he uses it on acceptable targets - and since he cannot use less than half his power, it could eventually be possible to rule out raging against innocents.

[Lix Lorn]

If Malfeas' trees are something like 20% Kingship, 20% City-Armor, and 60% Nuclear Rage,

This sounds like it could be fun. What percentages make up other yozis? xD

[Mr.Bookworm]

So, the general vibe I'm getting is that no one thinks it would be the morally right thing to do to just free all the titans without reconfiguring them in any way, and just skipping town to your vacation house made entirely of chocolate and french maids (or whatever) in the Wyld and let things sort themselves out?

Cause I think things would eventually sort themselves out.

Eh, I've gotten kind of attached to mortals. They're like two-legged kittens, frantically pawing the floor but only able to turn themselves in circles.

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Spoiler

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I suppose I can think about changing it. But on the other hand, I love striking down naming conventions!
/me wields a vorpal sword of +2 name-slaying.

Maintain proper naming conventions or the White Wolf canon ninjas will kill you.

Fair enough. I suppose no weapons/armor would be fine... but I can't think of any weapon that really suits it past that.

Do you imagine this looking like any real-world martial art? You could also look into historical weapons scholars and such carried. Might be something interesting, at least.

Yeah, it's pretty much Revlid's version. Just not called out as that, because I'd rather not make people refer to another document for something so simple.

Probably be good to give the guy who made it a nod, at least. Wild Revlids are vindictive by nature and react violently when provoked.

Heh, I'll give you that. I'll bump up the MA requirements on some of the lower ones before adding some post-form stuff.

Yeah, the starting Charms for an SMA usually have mins of MA 5, Ess 4.

If you also want this to be a style for knowledge monkeys, you could add in a "only someone with three dots of Lore (or spread between Lore and another skill) may learn this style" clause at the beginning, to make sure that one Sidereal that got dropped on his head as a baby doesn't learn it.

All good suggestions. I'll take a look at it, possibly broaden the times it can be used, and go with the "equal/lesser/greater" thing.

Sounds good!

Fair enough. I like the idea, and will try to keep it around... but I certainly see how it could be problematic.

Mmm.

Oh? Darn. That's my favorite charm in the style... and, admittedly, the hardest to balance. I'd hoped it's relatively short duration mostly made up for how massive a power it is, as well as something that cancels Shaping making it a waste of WP.

Well, Shaping-canceling is surprisingly rare. There's plenty of ways for a Celestial to grab personal protection from Shaping, but there's only a couple of Charms and spells that allow you to disable outside sources of Shaping.

Also, the duration really isn't short. You're looking at a minimum of 8 free actions, during which no one can touch you. That's plenty for a Sidereal to activate a doomsday weapon, run away, or do whatever they want to do without their opponents being able to touch them in any way, which is doubleplusungood.

Anyway, the effect you're going for here is something that allows a Sidereal to work on a mental task unimpeded, correct? You could maybe spice up the weirdness here. I'll think about this.

True, it's not nearly as esoteric as most SMA. Mostly because... well, the weirder the effect, the trickier balance becomes. I'll certainly be going into weirder stuff for the post-form charms, but I would like to keep everything up to that SOMEWHAT sane. For my sanity as much as anything else.

Fair enough.

Although, thinking about it, my main problem with this Charm is that it's a social combat attack in the middle of the knowledge-dude style. That seems odd.

This charm was, by far, the one I was most worried about being just... boring. It's deep enough in the tree that it has no right to be, but I kinda had a brainfart while trying to come up with more interesting effects for it.

Hmm. Might have an idea, if you're open. Let me think about it.

Ooh, good catch. I'd thought I had some way of defending in there, but a closer look reveals I missed that bit. >.<

I would be more surprised if you hadn't missed something.

Thanks on the sutra. It's gone through several revisions, with help from a few different people. I like how it came out though! I'll work on adding you an Tavar's changes in... at some point. (damn you college classes!) Then it's on to the post-form stuff!
As for a theme... Something along the lines of "Mysteries are greater than knowledge".

I look forward to seeing them!

That's incorrect. Violence is always an answer, but not the bests answer. See the Usurpation, for example.

Come a little closer and say that.

This sounds like it could be fun. What percentages make up other yozis? xD

Cecylene: It is not for the weak to question the making of their betters!

SWLIHN: 99.997% order, .003% ERROR NOT FOUND.

Adorjan: 33% giggle, 33% murder, 33% zoomzoom, 1% Buddha.

Ebon Dragon: All the *****. All of them.

Kimbery: 50% mother's love, 50% why don't you call me anymore, I hate you, taste acid Kool-Aid.

Szorney: 100% you.

Isidoros: 100% bro, 100% smashing **** up, 100% awesome, 700% boar.

Elloge: One hundred percent.

[Tavar]

Regarding the Sidereal Martial Art:

Yeah, looking over the "ignore everything ability", probably does need to be reduced in a couple ways. Making it last for Ticks instead of actions would likely help, as would expanding the way you can defeat it.

Or simply make it some sort of perfect defense against environmental effects, possibly with some ancillary stuff: maybe some sort of social attack to ignore the user?

As for the fluff, I'll say that I wasn't really looking at it too hard, as I feel I'd need the full style to really judge it's fluff.

[Lix Lorn]

Cecylene: It is not for the weak to question the making of their betters!

SWLIHN: 99.997% order, .003% ERROR NOT FOUND.

Adorjan: 33% giggle, 33% murder, 33% zoomzoom, 1% Buddha.

Ebon Dragon: All the *****. All of them.

Kimbery: 50% mother's love, 50% why don't you call me anymore, I hate you, taste acid Kool-Aid.

Szorney: 100% you.

Isidoros: 100% bro, 100% smashing **** up, 100% awesome, 700% boar.

Elloge: One hundred percent.

...I need to mentally start parsing you as 'awesome guy'

[Tavar]

...I need to mentally start parsing you as 'awesome guy'

You didn't already?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Isidoros: 100% bro, 100% smashing **** up, 100% awesome, 700% boar.

So... Augus plus 700% boar? At least now we'll know what his humanoid form looks like.

[Qwertystop]

Hi! I just heard about Exalted on the Things I May Not Do thread. It sounds pretty cool. How do I get it, and are any of the currently-recruiting PbPs accepting people who are entirely new to the system?