General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

[Andreaz]

Liminals and Lunars are...complicated. As with most everyone I had a knee-jerk aversion to a new splat, and I probably won't like it for the same reason I don't like abyssals, or anything death-themed at all... But I won't diss them until I actually read them.
Lunars... The problem I have with lunars is not quite with them, but with the players I know personally who play them. They're the ones who believe fanatically in the ways of oWoD werewolves. I hate the shamanistic ecoterrorist archetypes. (Then again, I hate everything oWoD and only M:tA pleases me enough to be playable in nWoD)

[Kyeudo]

They are? I don't recall someone holding a gun to your head telling you to use them or else...

See, this sort of attitude is one I'd expect over there.

Let me give you some concrete examples of stuff that I find annoying about the game line. Let's take the Daystar. Guess what? I hate the Daystar as written up by the Ink Monkeys. Giving the Unconquered Sun a giant battlestation that is so much better than anything a PC could ever hope to make himself is something that I don't think should have happened, especially since it was made ages before the height of magitechnology. In my games, the Daystar is a giant ball of fire in the sky and that's it. But guess what? Unless I specifically call out this tidbit of information to my players and they are as well read on the line as I am, they will believe the Daystar to be a giant space battlestation.

If it were just this one little tidbit of fluff, fine, I can call that out. But its not. The number of things I have to houserule out of my game because I find them stupid or not fitting with the kind of story I want to tell just keeps piling up. Everything in Glories of the Most High, Half-Castes, the Dawn Solution, Throne Shadow Style, nanites being behind Chaya's seasonal madness, the Ebon Dragon having kidnapped the Scarlet Empress, the Primordials being animate Charm sets, etc. At this point, I'd have to rewrite the entire line's fluff and then give my players a copy just to get us all on the same page.

This...isn't true. There have been things that the forums have criticized, and done so heavily.

If so, it hasn't happened while I was looking. I've found like one thread where two people said they didn't like something the Ink Monkeys have done. They got drowned out in shouts of "How dare you question our benevolent hamster overlords!!!"

I'm not so sure about that. First off, I don't think they're that likely to do such an act at first. I think it would only really get that bad after a bit of discussion. Secondly, I think that's because your view seems, well, wrong. You've brought up these arguments before, and they seem to mostly rely on twisted meanings/preconceptions.

Every time I bring up Samsara as superfate, I get told "it doesn't work like that." Guess what? If there is something that can predict the future and IS NEVER WRONG, its superfate. I don't need to hear about collapsing the waveform or quantum states or any of that nonsense. They have made Exalted an explicitly deterministic universe with a Fate that you can not fight. I don't see how I'm twisting any meanings here.

Oh. I get it. Your problem is that someone else is in charge of the gameline, instead of you, and thus you don't get veto power over what goes on. And, I guess, that the gameline is still active, instead of dead.

Nope. The line being alive is awesome. They kick out lots of cool stuff that I would never think of, like Autochthonia or Infernals. They just keep making big decisions about how the setting is for me. I don't get to pick where her Redness actually is anymore. She's in Hell, because the Ring of the Scarlet Bride exists in canon.

[tonberrian]

Let me give you some concrete examples of stuff that I find annoying about the game line. Let's take the Daystar. Guess what? I hate the Daystar as written up by the Ink Monkeys. Giving the Unconquered Sun a giant battlestation that is so much better than anything a PC could ever hope to make himself is something that I don't think should have happened, especially since it was made ages before the height of magitechnology. In my games, the Daystar is a giant ball of fire in the sky and that's it. But guess what? Unless I specifically call out this tidbit of information to my players and they are as well read on the line as I am, they will believe the Daystar to be a giant space battlestation.

1. If a PC wanted to make a better battlestation than the Daystar, they can. If you disagree, that's you telling them they can't.

the Ebon Dragon having kidnapped the Scarlet Empress

2. This explicitly isn't canon.

Every time I bring up Samsara as superfate, I get told "it doesn't work like that." Guess what? If there is something that can predict the future and IS NEVER WRONG, its superfate. I don't need to hear about collapsing the waveform or quantum states or any of that nonsense. They have made Exalted an explicitly deterministic universe with a Fate that you can not fight. I don't see how I'm twisting any meanings here.

3. Samsara doesn't work like that. It is explicitly fallible.

She's in Hell, because the Ring of the Scarlet Bride exists in canon.

4. The existence of the ring does not explicitly say that the Scarlet Empress is in Malfeas. You can do what ever you please with her. If the players continue to expect that Her Redness is going to be in Hell, that's the fault of stupid players, not the writers.

[Andreaz]

Everything in Glories of the Most High, Half-Castes, the Dawn Solution, Throne Shadow Style, nanites being behind Chaya's seasonal madness, the Ebon Dragon having kidnapped the Scarlet Empress, the Primordials being animate Charm sets, etc. At this point, I'd have to rewrite the entire line's fluff and then give my players a copy just to get us all on the same page.

I think everyone hates half-castes :p
Dawn Solution, specifically, I don't see why one would have a problem with. But I'll just wait and let you explain that if you want to.

If so, it hasn't happened while I was looking. I've found like one thread where two people said they didn't like something the Ink Monkeys have done. They got drowned out in shouts of "How dare you question our benevolent hamster overlords!!!"

XD Yeah. I don't think it'd be different with other groups, though :|

Nope. The line being alive is awesome. They kick out lots of cool stuff that I would never think of, like Autochthonia or Infernals. They just keep making big decisions about how the setting is for me. I don't get to pick where her Redness actually is anymore. She's in Hell, because the Ring of the Scarlet Bride exists in canon.

Except it doesn't... RotSE isn't canon. The problem is that's not clear until someone goes and talks about it.


Kyeudo... You are complaining that the setting is full of decisions you didn't like. That's a good thing.
But not taking the fight to the people that actually make the setting... That just makes you another nameless detractor.

[Madwand]

If it were just this one little tidbit of fluff, fine, I can call that out. But its not. The number of things I have to houserule out of my game because I find them stupid or not fitting with the kind of story I want to tell just keeps piling up. Everything in Glories of the Most High, Half-Castes, the Dawn Solution, Throne Shadow Style, nanites being behind Chaya's seasonal madness, the Ebon Dragon having kidnapped the Scarlet Empress, the Primordials being animate Charm sets, etc. At this point, I'd have to rewrite the entire line's fluff and then give my players a copy just to get us all on the same page.

I have no idea what your prolem with canon is? All books are for MG to cherry-pick from them. Stop interpreting RPG setting as an "realisticly fictional" world. It is a toolbox for storytellers. If your players mix their character knowledge and all what they read.. suprise them. For example if they think that Mount Metagalopala being A SECRET FLOATY BASE HIDDEN IN A FLOATY MOUNTAIN is great start to begin world conquer change it into sleeping Behemoth.. and watch the panic when they wake it up

[Friv]

Before I get into a counter-argument, I'm going to do a really tiny little mini-rant for a moment: The Scarlet Empress was always in Hell, about to be the bride of the Ebon Dragon. The canonicity of this has not changed since 1e Dragon-Bloods, which was like the fourth book written for the line, and it remains exactly as true now as it was then - probably true. The idea that this is some out-of-nowhere shocking twist isn't really supported by anything.


But that's just my pet peeve. Sorry. Anyway - the problem is, there's no way around your complaint. The writers can't stop making new information, or the game line dies. Now, if you don't like specific things, hell, don't use them. Tell your players that they don't get to assume that everything written in the books is true. Tell them that anyways. Make sure everyone knows that everything written in books that, say, a Lore 2 character knows are true, and everything else you reserve the right to change totally. I've run games where the Great Contagion was a Primordial, where the Mask of Winters broke the Seal of Eight Divinities as part of his millenia-long plot with Autochthon, where the Deathlords were decent people or where the Sidereals were all one unified anti-Solar force that had stamped out its dissent centuries before. If my players complained, I would say, "Hey, guess what. Your characters don't get to know things that they don't have the Lore or backstory for. Suck it up."

[Drascin]

1. If a PC wanted to make a better battlestation than the Daystar, they can. If you disagree, that's you telling them they can't.

Not just him, really, pretty much any ST isn't going to let the players make a Daystar, in the same way most STs aren't going to let a Dragonblooded make Charms that are stronger than a Solar's equivalent-essence ones. There's always outliers, of course, but on average, it's not really going to happen in a campaign.

[vegetalss4]

Not just him, really, pretty much any ST isn't going to let the players make a Daystar, in the same way most STs aren't going to let a Dragonblooded make Charms that are stronger than a Solar's equivalent-essence ones. There's always outliers, of course, but on average, it's not really going to happen in a campaign.

Those two things aren't equivalent at all, nor is it in any way a fair comparison.

One could however argue that the players won't be able to make a daystar in the average game in the same way that they won't be able to make a directional titan in an average game. Because the average game simply don't deal with the amount of time and resources that would require.
But even then one still has the directional titans as something that is more awesome than any battle station the players are going to build.

[Rikandur Azebol]

I agree Directional Titan is thousand times more awesome than floating Deathstar/Prison.

DT can be used to explore/create worlds ! Daystar only blows stuff up. We have Sword of Creation already.

[Story Time]

In my games, the Daystar is a giant ball of fire in the sky and that's it.

So...can you make a list and share it of all the stuff that you'd House Rule as either different or non-existent in your games? I'd like to see a document about it, if you don't mind. Please?

[Drascin]

Those two things aren't equivalent at all, nor is it in any way a fair comparison.

Don't see why not. A player of a Dragonblooded managing to make Charms that go leagues beyond the rest of his splat and a player of a crafter making an artifact that goes far beyond anything the rest of his splat can make seem roughly comparable. Even basic Artifact N/As are not something you really have a way to build, after all, and the Daystar is way, way, WAY beyond a pretty much any other Artifact N/A that exists in the game. The Five Metal Shrike is an N/A Artifact - the Daystar is so much more than the Shrike is. Where the Shrike is just a very fast ship with a very big cannon, the Daystar is a battlestation, a character, a giant robot, a temple, a mini-Valhalla for a bunch of ghosts, a prison, one of if not the best forge ever, the only thing that keeps Creation alive with its warmth, and I don't even remember what else.

Hell, I'm actually rather surprised you would consider making something as universe-defining as the Daystar as being less of a stretch for an ST than allowing a single Dragonblooded to have stronger charms. I honestly thought I was being rather generous in the comparison - I actually would assume an ST is waaaaaaaaay more likely to give a character some bigger charms (which in the grand scheme of things matter absolutely nothing) than make something like the Daystar.

[MickJay]

Kyeudo - I understand you perfectly well and sympathise, but you've already mentioned the solution to your problem. Make a list of the fluff that's explicitly not true in your game and give it to your players. It could be a list of facts or splat books, but it should stop the players from shoving in 'canon' facts into the game. As a player, I've both done and seen done what irritates you, but it's a fairly simple thing to just make a document starting with something along the lines of "these things are different from the game canon for this game [list to follow], any fluff or mechanics published after this document was written are not true for this game, unless explicitly stated otherwise".

[Gensh]

The Unconquered Sun is not Superman. Superman does not have 5 in every Virtue, and even if he did, it wouldn't affect him the same way it does the Sun.

I merely stated that because he's the most frequently used example. Another example would be Adam West's Batman, but that would be silly.

Reduced to the position of living sexual trophies, all while resisting at every turn, and filled with loathing for their new "master?"

Oh, wait, cosplayers. Still don't think the analogy fits, though.

Well, it's pretty obvious from a perspective outside the setting (or inside the setting with enough life experience) that looking into Samsara is really really dumb. I can't help but think the Maidens all have Stockholm Syndrome and Samsara is an abusive boyfriend..

Also, if Samsara is not the problem, then you shouldn't have said that Samsara was the problem.

I was just continuing along the lines of Kyeudo's argument. That predetermination exists within the setting beyond the extremely-punchable Loom is a flaw; Sidereal Charms shouldn't need an external power source.

Sacheverell is not a railroading ST by default; look upon him more as the horribly powerful telepath in a comic book, who even asleep has a mind powerful enough to disturb everyone... And if he were freed from his cell deep beneath the earth, would spread a hive mind across the planet in days, subsuming civilians, heroes, and villains alike into eternal torment. He's not something that's meant to happen in actuality, he's a potential that the players strive against, much like the Ebon Dragon subsuming all of Creation into his personal playland of eternal darkness. I wouldn't want to play in a game ruled by the Ebon Dragon, nor one ruled by Sacheverell. Sure is a good thing the plotline is going to consist of me working against them, rather than the description of what they WOULD do if freed being somehow real.

The problem with this is that for the game to be "real," there has to be a certain amount of risk. There has to be the definite possibility for the worst ending to happen because the PCs decided to kill a vital NPC or something. I don't mean just a dumb knee jerk "You killed this NPC so game over!" thing like in an Elder Scrolls game, but rather that the sum of their actions is what decides the way the plot is shaped. The players in my last game stole the Final Maelstrom from Faffles, and the Dusk redeemed herself in a fight with Meticulous Owl. That drove Steve to flip out and start the Return early, just so he could take a pot shot at them with the Realm Defense Grid. They weren't really prepared for the Return, but they knew it was Steve behind everything Faffles had done, so they should have expected some form of petty retaliation. Such a situation, though, is not unwinnable. Sacheverell waking up fairly explicitly is, as his Vision somehow surpasses even Malfeas' Tyranny and Isidoros' Might.

(As for Samsara being the metaplot: It is at most the metaplot of things under Samsara, and can always fail to come up with an answer. If the ST says "This exists outside Samsara" then it DOES. If he tells the players that Samsara says they will do X... Then that was pretty damn dumb of him, because the players can say "No" - Samsara has no ability to control anyone, save the Maidens when they choose to consult it. It has no mechanics for controlling everyone because there are no mechanics for controlling everyone.)

But the only thing that exists beyond Samsara are the players, unless the ST is Prof. X or something. But think about it - even if free, the players will he hard pressed to merely avoid dying. All those previously-helpful NPCs are reduced to using the version of the world's script as interpreted by a Yozi. They'd be in just as much trouble as a circle that incarnated during the Empress' reign.

I can't really answer this, as I realize that people have different standards. But, I think I can definitively say that it's already broken: Green Sun Princes.

I never saw it that way. Prince stands alongside Vizier and Steward just fine. The "Green Sun" phrase is required to distinguish them from the uncorrupted Princes of the Earth.

Failing a struggle does not mean that their isn't a struggle. Further more, I don't really see a way to escape the fact that he's failed: it's canon that he didn't help during the Crusade or Contagion.

While many would still consider it kind of a **** move, the reason why he did not act during the Contagion or Crusade could easily have been the same reason why he does not vaporize Thorns - they are of human design. He would be a much more sympathetic character if, for all his inherent perfection and unending effort, he simply could not get the Celestial Bureaucracy to move as parallel to how no one really listens to Malfeas anymore. He can fire a bureaucrat, but twenty more will help the offender get his job back. Sol himself is caught up in memories of the good old days and can't bring himself to vaporize the sorry lot.

Why then did this not happen for either of the books? There's plenty of characterization there, it's simply not spelled out by first saying "the character of Lunar is as follows". Even then, there's parts where they clearly define the different characters.

As for the Maidens...bwa? There's quite a bit of personality revealed on pages 5-7, more than enough for beings meant to be mysterious, especially coupled with the fact that the ST is meant to have leeway with the characters.

It is not particularly sufficient. The given descriptions define more the offices of the Incarnae, rather than the holders of those offices. Certain personal preferences such as forms would change between holders, so they can provide a modicum of character, but such is not the same sort of characterization that many other movers and shakers possess. I expected at least as much characterization as is given the Deathlords, even if much of the writing is merely "the ST can do this or this or this or even make something up." Instead, the amount of description is hardly more than is allotted to any demon in RoD II, where many had to be described in a single chapter.

And, well, yes, they aren't nice, in Human Terms. But asking someone to be nice in that way when their job is to make sure everyone dies at their appointed time is...somewhat demanding, to say the least.

This is inapplicable to Sol, Luna, Mercury, Venus, and possibly Jupiter.

I don't get to pick where her Redness actually is anymore. She's in Hell, because the Ring of the Scarlet Bride exists in canon.

Nah. I'm using Return as a guideline, and she isn't even in hell most of time. As a specific example, she attended the wedding of an Abyssal NPC in the secret lair of Ma-Ha-Suchi. The Moonsilver PC nearly had a threesome with her and Ligier before the Dawn very subtly informed her exactly who those two peculiarly attractive people were.

Not just him, really, pretty much any ST isn't going to let the players make a Daystar, in the same way most STs aren't going to let a Dragonblooded make Charms that are stronger than a Solar's equivalent-essence ones. There's always outliers, of course, but on average, it's not really going to happen in a campaign.

I've considered resolving this issue with a series of Charms of which you can only take one. Whichever you choose, you gain the ability to do plot device-level shenanigans from time to time, such as making Five Metal Shrike II: Shrike Harder.

Though as to that, I suppose I should mention that in my game the Shrike was the key to Voltron-ing the Daystar, the Silver Chair, the Final Maelstrom, the Loom, and a yet-to-be-defined jade battlestation hidden under the Imperial Mountain.

[Weimann]

On Liminals: I too had a distinct "but you'll ruin it!" when I heard about them. Still, the current writers have yet to dissapoint me with a published book. I will hold my pease until I have something tangible to critizise.

On Holden: Holden's got an attitude, but I've always seen it as a persona for the sake of publicity than anything else. He's sometimes wrong, as is everyone. I like him. If anything, I've a bigger problem with hatewheel.

On the White Wolf forum in general: It can be harsh, but it's been much harsher. I've no problem with the current climate there. The bigest problem as I see it is that sometimes, discussion meant as "what do you think will happen if I do this in my game" turns out as "why this whouldn't happen in the canon setting".

[tonberrian]

Building a bigger, better battle station than the Daystar is more equivalent to a Dragonblooded achieving Essence 8 or more. It does not come up in the average game. In fact, it should only come up as a campaign sculpting event, like a really powerful Miracle Shell.

Fluff-wise, it is an extraordinary event among extraordinary events. But all the fluff implies that it is possible. The only reason you can't is because the ST says so.

[Sallera]

I never saw it that way. Prince stands alongside Vizier and Steward just fine. The "Green Sun" phrase is required to distinguish them from the uncorrupted Princes of the Earth.

Isn't Warlock the Green Sun Prince equivalent to those terms? As has been mentioned, Infernal covers akuma as well, so it doesn't fit into the same place in the terminology. (Personally, I think Chernozem works fine, but given how little we have to go on, it's rather hard to say at this point.)

If so, it hasn't happened while I was looking. I've found like one thread where two people said they didn't like something the Ink Monkeys have done. They got drowned out in shouts of "How dare you question our benevolent hamster overlords!!!"

I don't know if it happened on the forums themselves, but I think Ivory Pestle was proof enough that even the Ink Monkeys can get pretty viciously called out when they make a big enough mistake.

[Guancyto]

I don't know if it happened on the forums themselves, but I think Ivory Pestle was proof enough that even the Ink Monkeys can get pretty viciously called out when they make a big enough mistake.

It did. Very extensively. Cobra Style (which IIRC was Holden's baby) and Lightspeed Body Dynamics as well.

Sometimes the Ink Monkeys output terrible mechanics, and they're not immune to being called out on them.

But they do get a the benefit of the doubt most of the time.

[Lix Lorn]

Nah. I'm using Return as a guideline, and she isn't even in hell most of time. As a specific example, she attended the wedding of an Abyssal NPC in the secret lair of Ma-Ha-Suchi. The Moonsilver PC nearly had a threesome with her and Ligier before the Dawn very subtly informed her exactly who those two peculiarly attractive people were.

Okay, can I play in one of your games?

[Tavar]

See, this sort of attitude is one I'd expect over there.

No, it's the attitude that's pretty much universal. I've seen it plenty of times on the boards, usually in the 3.5 section.

You're complaining that the line is making new material that you then must use in your game. He's pointing out that must doesn't factor into it: no one is forcing you to. This is a direct answer to your complaint.

Well, I guess it's an answer to your direct complaint. The more subtle complaint is that they aren't simply doing things that you approve of. Which, well, yeah, it kinda sucks, but it's inevitable, as you are not in command of the line. That would be a valid complaint, but one that there really isn't an answer for.

If it were just this one little tidbit of fluff, fine, I can call that out. But its not. The number of things I have to houserule out of my game because I find them stupid or not fitting with the kind of story I want to tell just keeps piling up. Everything in Glories of the Most High, Half-Castes, the Dawn Solution, Throne Shadow Style, nanites being behind Chaya's seasonal madness, the Ebon Dragon having kidnapped the Scarlet Empress, the Primordials being animate Charm sets, etc. At this point, I'd have to rewrite the entire line's fluff and then give my players a copy just to get us all on the same page.

It seems like you have less a problem with the current developers than a problem with Exalted's history, going as far back as 1ed. But decide to blame it on the current crop.

If so, it hasn't happened while I was looking. I've found like one thread where two people said they didn't like something the Ink Monkeys have done. They got drowned out in shouts of "How dare you question our benevolent hamster overlords!!!"

I've seen several where people are extremely critical of them, and yet nothing like that line get's tossed out.

Every time I bring up Samsara as superfate, I get told "it doesn't work like that." Guess what? If there is something that can predict the future and IS NEVER WRONG, its superfate. I don't need to hear about collapsing the waveform or quantum states or any of that nonsense. They have made Exalted an explicitly deterministic universe with a Fate that you can not fight. I don't see how I'm twisting any meanings here.

But it can be wrong. Just like you are extremely wrong now.

Also, ignoring their arguments because it might threaten your preconceptions is a pretty poor strategy.

Nope. The line being alive is awesome. They kick out lots of cool stuff that I would never think of, like Autochthonia or Infernals. They just keep making big decisions about how the setting is for me. I don't get to pick where her Redness actually is anymore. She's in Hell, because the Ring of the Scarlet Bride exists in canon.

Objectively false: the wedding band makes no mention of the supposed bride's identity, any more than any book outside of Return of the Scarlet Empress does. It hints at it, yes, but there are many, many hints in the setting. And the hints are never required to be true. Hence, you know, the whole Non-canon aspect of RoTSE.

Also, I can't take your statement that you welcome new content, because your whole complaint about the Daystar is that the new content is bad.

Finally, some of your problems seem to be fanon standing in for canon. The Primordial's as simply sentient charm trees, for example.

And for that, those that have, have been frequently roasted.

I think a guy named Shyft is making some "friends" at the moment by expressing his dislike of how the current freelancers do things, in a thread that's probably still there.

Shyft is making 'friends' because his view isn't the same as everyone's, plus some of his statements are incredibly...not offensive, I guess, but almost designed to get a rise out of people.
I mean "The writers no longer have the talent."

Also, the fact that his arguments as to why something is bad seem to consist of "It's bad because I don't like it because it's bad", well, yeah, not a great way to convince others. Oh, and he has a tendency to make statements about what we really don't know, and portray them as fact. Like the new Exalt type stealing the Abyssals place: that's apparently not true, and even if it was going to be true, we hardly have any evidence of it yet. Never mind that it's been stated that it isn't the case. So in addition to this, he comes off as a bit of a liar.

He also has a bit of a history on the board, apparently, and not a positive one. So, that doesn't help matters.

Or how, when Reminescent Oasis disliked what MoJ had to say on Lunars, people were basically calling him "mindless Chicken Little that needs to have his butt wiped to think" even as the actual writers came and explained. Thankfully, he had the Lunar Fan Contingent in there to help him.

What.

The first part of the thread was extremely civil. I'm re-reading(well, skimming) it to see if that changed, but from what I remember, it never got nasty. I think your placing way to much emphasis on your preconceptions.

Basically, in the WW forum, don't mention something negative about the freelancers unless you are ready to defend your argument with blood and fire and for the thread to go to twelve pages.

I feel this is a grave misrepresentation. As much as your "all solars everywhere are world-ending-baby-rapers".

I merely stated that because he's the most frequently used example. Another example would be Adam West's Batman, but that would be silly.

And Superman's a bad example, even then. Solars are more equivalent to superman, being, you know, Human and everything.

Well, it's pretty obvious from a perspective outside the setting (or inside the setting with enough life experience) that looking into Samsara is really really dumb. I can't help but think the Maidens all have Stockholm Syndrome and Samsara is an abusive boyfriend..

The Maidens don't like looking at Samsara, because even though it can give them a power boost it largely takes away their free will(but, only their free will).

I was just continuing along the lines of Kyeudo's argument. That predetermination exists within the setting beyond the extremely-punchable Loom is a flaw; Sidereal Charms shouldn't need an external power source.

If samsara isn't fallible, it is only because it doesn't give an answer unless it does know what is going to happen.

And, it is necessary, because Sidereals can predict things that are outside of fate, and thus the Loom's jurisdiction. And, do so to a much more reliable degree than if the Loom did cover the area. Samsara fills this gap.

The problem with this is that for the game to be "real," there has to be a certain amount of risk. There has to be the definite possibility for the worst ending to happen because the PCs decided to kill a vital NPC or something. I don't mean just a dumb knee jerk "You killed this NPC so game over!" thing like in an Elder Scrolls game, but rather that the sum of their actions is what decides the way the plot is shaped. The players in my last game stole the Final Maelstrom from Faffles, and the Dusk redeemed herself in a fight with Meticulous Owl. That drove Steve to flip out and start the Return early, just so he could take a pot shot at them with the Realm Defense Grid. They weren't really prepared for the Return, but they knew it was Steve behind everything Faffles had done, so they should have expected some form of petty retaliation. Such a situation, though, is not unwinnable. Sacheverell waking up fairly explicitly is, as his Vision somehow surpasses even Malfeas' Tyranny and Isidoros' Might.

Note that this is partially fanon: we don't actually know what Sacheverell's power is, how it would manifest, or anything. We have a hint that it involves Samsara, but if you'll notice, the hint is only that it might involve Samsara. And, even if it did, we aren't sure what this would entail.

So, in other words, Fans complaining that Fanon ruins the games canon, and thus the developers are to blame.

But the only thing that exists beyond Samsara are the players, unless the ST is Prof. X or something. But think about it - even if free, the players will he hard pressed to merely avoid dying. All those previously-helpful NPCs are reduced to using the version of the world's script as interpreted by a Yozi. They'd be in just as much trouble as a circle that incarnated during the Empress' reign.

That's fanon. Unless you have a statement that backs it up.

I never saw it that way. Prince stands alongside Vizier and Steward just fine. The "Green Sun" phrase is required to distinguish them from the uncorrupted Princes of the Earth.

Either Green Sun Princes or Warlock is their counterpart to Solar.

While many would still consider it kind of a **** move, the reason why he did not act during the Contagion or Crusade could easily have been the same reason why he does not vaporize Thorns - they are of human design. He would be a much more sympathetic character if, for all his inherent perfection and unending effort, he simply could not get the Celestial Bureaucracy to move as parallel to how no one really listens to Malfeas anymore. He can fire a bureaucrat, but twenty more will help the offender get his job back. Sol himself is caught up in memories of the good old days and can't bring himself to vaporize the sorry lot.

This doesn't really work given the setting's description of Heaven. He's the king, the undisputed master of heaven. The other god's fear his involvement, because he would get them back on track.

Furthermore, that's at least partially why he doesn't: he ceded Creation to the chosen, and to interfere would be to break a promise. Something that would be extremely hard to do for him, because he is inherently honest.

Finally, I notice you haven't answered the little explanation I posted, so I'll ask you again. Given the fact that he's a Father who has had to kill his children, and also sign off on the repeated killing of his children for over 1500 years, what do you expect?

It is not particularly sufficient. The given descriptions define more the offices of the Incarnae, rather than the holders of those offices. Certain personal preferences such as forms would change between holders, so they can provide a modicum of character, but such is not the same sort of characterization that many other movers and shakers possess. I expected at least as much characterization as is given the Deathlords, even if much of the writing is merely "the ST can do this or this or this or even make something up." Instead, the amount of description is hardly more than is allotted to any demon in RoD II, where many had to be described in a single chapter.

Well, first off, RoD II was about 5 times the size of the Glories books, and the books included quite a bit of material that was meant for the players. Never mind that, for Maidens, you're looking at 5 characters to describe.

Additionally, I think you're selling the books short: there's quite a bit of personality given in the passages. Every action it lists one of the Incarna doing informs their personality to a degree. Yes, those are their offices, but they are gods. The office and the god are interlinked very tightly.

You seem to want them to be human, but they aren't, and to ask them to be would, in my opinion, be a disservice to the setting, by making what is mythological and wondrous into the mundane.

This is inapplicable to Sol, Luna, Mercury, Venus, and possibly Jupiter.

Can you give examples of how the latter 4 aren't nice? Actually, Jupiter likely gets a bye because of her domain: keeping secrets isn't something that's easy, or something that's going to make you a well-adjusted individual.

[Drascin]

Shyft is making 'friends' because his view isn't the same as everyone's, plus some of his statements are incredibly...not offensive, I guess, but almost designed to get a rise out of people.
I mean "The writers no longer have the talent."

Also, the fact that his arguments as to why something is bad seem to consist of "It's bad because I don't like it because it's bad", well, yeah, not a great way to convince others. Oh, and he has a tendency to make statements about what we really don't know, and portray them as fact. Like the new Exalt type stealing the Abyssals place: that's apparently not true, and even if it was going to be true, we hardly have any evidence of it yet. Never mind that it's been stated that it isn't the case. So in addition to this, he comes off as a bit of a liar.

He also has a bit of a history on the board, apparently, and not a positive one. So, that doesn't help matters.

Indeed, his manners are really quite nothing to write home about, and he seems entirely convinced that what he considers good is always and undeniably good, and what he considers bad is always and undeniably bad. But then, neither are those of a lot of highly popular people there, in all honesty. Nocte (though I will admit Nocte has pacified a lot) or Octopoid come to mind most readily, as would Sojiko if he hadn't become somewhat stranded from the forum.

Though I will say that in truth, the most annoying thing in that thread is neither Shyft nor the people arguing with him for or against the freelancers, but rather Mouse. I just mentioned it because it was in the front page, but perhaps it rather diluted my point. Ah well .

I feel this is a grave misrepresentation. As much as your "all solars everywhere are world-ending-baby-rapers".

Now who's misrepresenting who?

In any case, the WW forums are a lot better than they were when I joined. You actually can have conversations there now. And I figure you can map that directly to the freelancers, in fact, as the new material keeps people happier and less willing to rip each other's head off for disagreeing on Abyssal virtue interpretations (god in heaven THAT was a bad thread. Bad memories... ). But there are some topics that are just instant wars (goodness of badness of Solars, or Great Prophecy, seem to come to mind instahntly as stuff that will basically kill any thread they're mentioned in, with fire), and badmouthing the freelancers has a better than even chance of making the thread suddenly about arguing that.

[Turalisj]

I feel this is a grave misrepresentation. As much as your "all solars everywhere are world-ending-baby-rapers".

I thought this was the viewpoint of a certain fae-loving member of the boards?

[Weimann]

Updates on 2.5 progress.

Update 2/13/12 PM 3:06

We had an issue come up over the weekend and we had to backtrack over some work. As a result, we're now putting finishing touches on the 2.5 errata, with Sidereal errata mostly finished but in need of a review. We are still a few days out from posting. The day I send it off to be uploaded I will post an announcement. Keep checking this post for updates.

[Tavar]

Indeed, his manners are really quite nothing to write home about, and he seems entirely convinced that what he considers good is always and undeniably good, and what he considers bad is always and undeniably bad. But then, neither are those of a lot of highly popular people there, in all honesty. Nocte (though I will admit Nocte has pacified a lot) or Octopoid come to mind most readily, as would Sojiko if he hadn't become somewhat stranded from the forum.

Though I will say that in truth, the most annoying thing in that thread is neither Shyft nor the people arguing with him for or against the freelancers, but rather Mouse.

I'm not so sure about your comparison between him and other posters. I think the key difference is that Shyft comes off as untruthful, and the others largely don't, at least from my experience.

I just mentioned it because it was in the front page, but perhaps it rather diluted my point. Ah well.

Not so much diluted as not supported your argument at all, and in fact possibly detracted from it. After all, you can hardly say that people are jumping all over someone unfairly when that's both not happening and the person in question is coming in extremely hostile.

Now who's misrepresenting who?

Considering the discussions we've had, or that I've seen, nope. Don't think it's a misrepresentation.

But there are some topics that are just instant wars (goodness of badness of Solars, or Great Prophecy, seem to come to mind instahntly as stuff that will basically kill any thread they're mentioned in, with fire),

The thing is, this forum isn't much different. I mean, go to the 3.5 section, and make a thread on Monks, or Fighter/Wizard balance.

and badmouthing the freelancers has a better than even chance of making the thread suddenly about arguing that.

Depends. Criticism seems to be take decently well, but showing up and saying "the freelancers are all hacks who have no talent" isn't. Almost as if the latter is a needlessly hostile remark designed to get a rise, and not promote discussion.

[Rikandur Azebol]

I thought this was the viewpoint of a certain fae-loving member of the boards ?

*achoo*

Wait, what ? I do not love Canon Fair Folk, who are pretentious ballerinas. And I dislike 2e Solars because ... if You eat too much chocolate it make You puke.
Mechanics of Solar Charms in 1e, IMO, tried to keep the mechanical side of the setting roughly balanced with charms for other forms of "Walking XP/Markers for Daiclave". Solars got the most potent effects, but the price for said effects was higher in proportion that was easier to track.

In 2e this seem utterly thrown trough the window. Solars are given all the best toys, from mechanical point of view, and the world revolves around them in such nagging way it sickens me. It makes playing other types of Exalts, asides from DBs that were designed as "weaklings", an exercise in playing underdogs. Fluff-wise it might make sense, but from mechanical "fairness" standpoint this is a sin.

That's why I dislike 2e Solars, asides from The Desus. Do You know him ? What a guy !

[tonberrian]

I made a thing.

Another thing, even!

[Gensh]

Okay, can I play in one of your games?

Maybe whenever I finally start another game. While I'm able to post between classes, I've had enough work this semester that I haven't been able to update Godtrapped at all.

Finally, some of your problems seem to be fanon standing in for canon. The Primordial's as simply sentient charm trees, for example.

I'm going to go ahead and interject here - while Kyuedo may have been wrong about some of those things, there's effectively no line between fanon and canon in Exalted. That Primordials are merely sentient Charm trees isn't necessarily fanon, as there is no further information. Earlier publications make them much more mysterious if more relatable than sentient Charm trees, but as there is no more to work off of than the fact that maiming them causes them to lose Charms, it is a logical and potentially true conclusion. If any publication would define exactly what a Primordial is, then it's Manual: Infernals (unless we get Glories: Yozis).

And Superman's a bad example, even then. Solars are more equivalent to superman, being, you know, Human and everything.

Superman is an alien from a distant planet who somehow gains invulnerability when exposed to yellow sunlight. Yeah, he's human.

Supes is an excellent example because he represents exactly how far Sol is beyond other gods. He is quite literally Perfection Beyond Imagining because he is capable of exceeding his design parameters in order to perform his duties. Gods are bound by their office, but Sol is not.He is beyond gods as the King of Kings was beyond Primordials. His Primordial-given duty is being the Guarding Star. His god-given duty is being King of Heaven, and his self-given duty is being the patron of humanity. He has failed all three duties since he set foot in the Jade Pleasure Dome, proving that his office means very little to him. He is effectively unbound and in that is more like a godblood than anything else.

Note that this is partially fanon: we don't actually know what Sacheverell's power is, how it would manifest, or anything. We have a hint that it involves Samsara, but if you'll notice, the hint is only that it might involve Samsara. And, even if it did, we aren't sure what this would entail.

So, in other words, Fans complaining that Fanon ruins the games canon, and thus the developers are to blame.

We know that his awakening damns all realms of existence to predestination. I mean, that's pretty clear. And now we know what predestination is called.

That's fanon. Unless you have a statement that backs it up.

Sacheverell, who is also called the Abhorrent Prophet Unimagined, dreams only of the present while he slumbers. In waking, however, nothing of the future remains hidden from him, and the doings of Heaven, hell, and Creation alike become locked into the patterns his visions foresee.

This doesn't really work given the setting's description of Heaven. He's the king, the undisputed master of heaven. The other god's fear his involvement, because he would get them back on track.

Aye. I didn't say it was possible but rather that it would have been a better direction to structure the game world so that Sol doesn't just seem lazy.

Furthermore, that's at least partially why he doesn't: he ceded Creation to the chosen, and to interfere would be to break a promise. Something that would be extremely hard to do for him, because he is inherently honest.

Again, aye. But I'd rather not Sol run off of Kantian principles. Breaking an oath to humanity to save it from itself isn't really a bad thing. I mean, the Contagion and subsequent Crusade came really close to outright extinctions.

Finally, I notice you haven't answered the little explanation I posted, so I'll ask you again. Given the fact that he's a Father who has had to kill his children, and also sign off on the repeated killing of his children for over 1500 years, what do you expect?

Perfection. The Valor to return anew with the Dawn. The Temperance to let man rule itself at its Zenith. The Compassion to save it in its Twilight. The Conviction to wait out the Night. The Willpower to drive his children to Eclipse him in all these things.

Sol as written is not a father. He's the drunken, lazy stepfather that is stuck taking care of you when your mother dies - or is cast into hell, as the case may be. Though admittedly this analogy falls apart at the end since what little we know about Cytherea doesn't imply anything more than Kimberian tendencies.

Well, first off, RoD II was about 5 times the size of the Glories books, and the books included quite a bit of material that was meant for the players. Never mind that, for Maidens, you're looking at 5 characters to describe.

Again, both the Deathlords and demons were given a single chapter of description. You'd think that a book specifically about X would have more description than Ligier in a single chapter that has to describe several important demons.

You seem to want them to be human, but they aren't, and to ask them to be would, in my opinion, be a disservice to the setting, by making what is mythological and wondrous into the mundane.

You mean like giving the Deathlords, Incarnae, and Yozis stats in the first place? The reverse of the old adage is not necessarily true: it need not have stats to be killable (though the Deathlord weakness thing was a bit silly). Even if it was, maybe that's what was so impossible about the Exalted victory - that they killed what was without comprehensible statistics. The Deathlords are no longer mysterious avatars of death and destruction. They are cranky oldies who want those whippersnappers off their lawn, where their lawn is the whole world. The Incarnae are no longer beings of legendary might and glory. They are merely really lazy bureaucrats. The Yozis have ceased being grand, mostly unfathomable ancient enemies. They are children that the Exalted maimed for being incapable of understanding adult morality.

Can you give examples of how the latter 4 aren't nice? Actually, Jupiter likely gets a bye because of her domain: keeping secrets isn't something that's easy, or something that's going to make you a well-adjusted individual.

Actually, Luna wins the boobie prize for actually doing her job and even helping Lunars on the side. The Maidens automatically fail for being really boring automatons who don't ever make serious decisions on their own and don't ever say a thing to their Chosen. Assuming they're not Oversight, anyway.
Oversight is totally SWLIHN.

[aetherialDawn]

The Maidens automatically fail for being really boring automatons who don't ever make serious decisions on their own and don't ever say a thing to their Chosen. Assuming they're not Oversight, anyway.

Nobody said they had to consult Samsara. If they do, it supercharges their charms, and they can plan around their new knowledge... But they also are tied to that. The Maidens are capable of, at their own choice, trading freedom for power (In the form of knowledge and also direct power) within their purviews - or at least, attempting to make that trade, since Samsara doesn't always answer.

Oversight is totally SWLIHN.

Oversight is not SWLiHN. Oversight is made up of what happens when you try to break three perfectly indestructible spheres. Oversight is SWLiHN's nature rebelling against her act of destruction and chaos, attempting to rebuild the pieces of causality that she destroyed.
Within the three spheres that float silently at the center of the infinitely-occluded Oversight office beyond the whole Mask that still exists in potentia where the broken one lies for all others, a place made up only of its own blueprint that was never written, only possible... Within that place, within those spheres, lies SWLiHN's crushing guilt, forever trying to repair things, even as they/it/she knows that half of those once-perfect/still-perfect forms lies in shards across Creation and Hell, the chaos that cannot be undone even if all else might be healed. Where crystal gave way, geometry still remains, however, and SWLiHN was always of patterns rather than of objects, and so in the quiet, perfect harmonies of Fate's patterns, sometimes a strand of purest non-color will wind through, seeking to complete a pattern that extends beyond what remains, enlisting the aid of those who can still reach, through the emulative-yet-expansive field of Martial Arts, the patterns that remain where even patterns were obliterated.
(^ I'm talking about SMA made by Sidereals.)

[Drascin]

Considering the discussions we've had, or that I've seen, nope. Don't think it's a misrepresentation.

Well, it is, amusingly enough. See, I have said that Solars are easily amongst the most dangerous things to Creation at the moment, several steps above Raksha and pretty much any Exalted splats that aren't the other solaroids. I have said that the requirements for Solar exaltation are actually benefitted by a certain Zapp Brannigann-esque misplaced self-confidence, and that I therefore believe there will be a rather higher percentage of egomaniacal Solars than there'd be on any other group of equal sample size. Much in the same way that a sample size of Lunars will have more people who are unreasonably stubborn and impossible to talk to than pretty much a sample size of anything short of a dwarf community, because being incredibly stubborn and refusing to give up anything ever actively helps you earn a Lunar Exaltation.

That's stuff I have said, and I'm not going to deny it. I have changed my outlook on some of the details, but I did say it. I have never said they're all baby-rapists. A fair amount of them are going to be good people. Even a bunch of those who are egotistical and ridiculously self centered are unlikely to be baby rapists, they'll just be humanly bad (which when you have the kind of near-unstoppable power Solars get, can and may be enough to screw up everything, mind, but still).

And that you think I have, plus the way you seem to basically be arguing in the same way you accuse Kyeudo of doing, is not really doing you any favours on the "you are too colored by your own preconceptions" argument you're making.

Keep in mind - the reasons I personally dislike Solars as a splat, and the reason I think they are one of the biggest risks Creation faces as of the game's starting date, are entirely different things. I dislike them pure and simply because they make the whole gameline orbit around them to an annoying degree, because I'm the kind of guy who refuses to play the top tier characters in any fighting game on principle, and because their metaphysical place as being the best thing in the setting ever and nobody even gets to get somewhat close unless they're also Solars or derivatives grinds on me. But that's just the reasons I personally am not very willing to play a solar, and even like this, they're not even the Exalt I am the least willing to play anyway (Abyssals have that honor).

This is entirely separate from any beliefs I may have about evilness or goodness - besides, really, "in Creation, if you assume everyone is an *******, you'll get it right way more often than you'll get it wrong" is something I've said a few times before, and still applies. To all splats equally, honestly - this is still a White Wolf game .

But if you do want a summary of my belief about Solar evilness, here's pretty much the sum-up version: individual Solars are humans, and therefore like any humans can be good, bad, or horrible (same applies to pretty much every other splat). However, Solar exaltations have a pretty screwed up way of choosing, plus what ultimate power implies, so the average assholishness of Solars is going to be pretty damn up there. That make sense?

[Turalisj]

Guys. Maybe everyone should take a break from this little discussion before the moderators get involved? Please?

[Tavar]

I'm going to go ahead and interject here - while Kyuedo may have been wrong about some of those things, there's effectively no line between fanon and canon in Exalted. That Primordials are merely sentient Charm trees isn't necessarily fanon, as there is no further information. Earlier publications make them much more mysterious if more relatable than sentient Charm trees, but as there is no more to work off of than the fact that maiming them causes them to lose Charms, it is a logical and potentially true conclusion. If any publication would define exactly what a Primordial is, then it's Manual: Infernals (unless we get Glories: Yozis).

That's not true. If something is undefined, that does not mean that a deduction about how it could be defined is canon. Because canon consists of what is known and defined by the setting's authors.

Superman is an alien from a distant planet who somehow gains invulnerability when exposed to yellow sunlight. Yeah, he's human.

Human biologically? No, of course not. But he is Human, outlook-wise. That's the whole part about being raised on Earth by humans in his backstory. Furthermore, he is portrayed as human, in many aspects.

Gods are bound by their office, but Sol is not.

This line, right here? I'm not sure that's really true.

We know that his awakening damns all realms of existence to predestination. I mean, that's pretty clear. And now we know what predestination is called.

Except this isn't true, dammit. If you actually read the line involved, it says that some fear that his power is linked to Samsara. Not that is is, that they fear it might be.

There's also the thing that it really isn't predestination, any more than the Loom is.

Aye. I didn't say it was possible but rather that it would have been a better direction to structure the game world so that Sol doesn't just seem lazy.

Well, maybe. But even if that is the case, why did he not intervene himself? Moreover, why have the gods gotten to be that way, if he was taking an interest before hand.

Again, aye. But I'd rather not Sol run off of Kantian principles. Breaking an oath to humanity to save it from itself isn't really a bad thing. I mean, the Contagion and subsequent Crusade came really close to outright extinctions.

To us, no it's not. To him, though? I'm not saying that he's some virtue driven robot, but for him to break a promise is a terrible, terrible thing, because it grates against his very being. There's an additional reason that I'll get into below.

Perfection. The Valor to return anew with the Dawn. The Temperance to let man rule itself at its Zenith. The Compassion to save it in its Twilight. The Conviction to wait out the Night. The Willpower to drive his children to Eclipse him in all these things.

Well, couple problems with this. First off, it would require a complete re-write of the setting. Secondly, it kinda misses the point about his character.

Sol as written is not a father. He's the drunken, lazy stepfather that is stuck taking care of you when your mother dies - or is cast into hell, as the case may be. Though admittedly this analogy falls apart at the end since what little we know about Cytherea doesn't imply anything more than Kimberian tendencies.

Evidence to support these accusations? I can back up mine, but I think the only thing you can do for yours is the fact that you hate the UCS, and thus he must be bad.

Really, it seems to me that your argument is that the UCS should't fail. Shouldn't have emotions. Shouldn't ever doubt himself or his methods.

But the setting is partially based on the fact that he would. He helped the Exalted win the world from the titans, and then gave the world to them, something the Titans would never have done. And, for a time, it was good. But then things changed, and the Solars grew so great as to endanger the world. And he had to look and ask himself, "did I do right? Did I simply trade one set of Titans for Another, but this set from my own Blood?"

Maybe he found and answer, and maybe he didn't. In any case, he turned his face from the Solars, because he no longer had hope. And, in time, due to the Usurpation, he turned from Creation itself, because the hope never returned.

Also, I think a key part your missing is that for untold eons he was what you want him to be: the guiding star. And he could be again, but to do that hope must be restored. It fits in with the idea that Creation, currently, is broken. That nothing is working in the order that it should be, but that your PC's can change it.

Again, both the Deathlords and demons were given a single chapter of description. You'd think that a book specifically about X would have more description than Ligier in a single chapter that has to describe several important demons.

It would, if the book were solely about them. If you look at the books, they don't simply cover the maidens, Luna, or the UCS.

You mean like giving the Deathlords, Incarnae, and Yozis stats in the first place? The reverse of the old adage is not necessarily true: it need not have stats to be killable (though the Deathlord weakness thing was a bit silly). Even if it was, maybe that's what was so impossible about the Exalted victory - that they killed what was without comprehensible statistics. The Deathlords are no longer mysterious avatars of death and destruction. They are cranky oldies who want those whippersnappers off their lawn, where their lawn is the whole world. The Incarnae are no longer beings of legendary might and glory. They are merely really lazy bureaucrats. The Yozis have ceased being grand, mostly unfathomable ancient enemies. They are children that the Exalted maimed for being incapable of understanding adult morality.

Having mechanics does not make something mundane. Nor does not having them make something wondrous. Or, that's my opinion, though there's currently a debate on WW forums about this exact topic here.

I will say that I'm not sure the Deathlords were ever intended to be Mysterious Avatars of Death. If anything, that seems to be more of the Abyssals place.

Actually, Luna wins the boobie prize for actually doing her job and even helping Lunars on the side. The Maidens automatically fail for being really boring automatons who don't ever make serious decisions on their own and don't ever say a thing to their Chosen. Assuming they're not Oversight, anyway.
Oversight is totally SWLIHN.

Can you point out the passages which say that the Maidens act this way? I mean, there's a bit in Maidens that implies this, but only to say that they were like this long ago, and that they have changed.

Also, I seem to remember statements to the effect that the Maidens do talk to their chosen on occasion. But, like all the Incarna, the GoD have them addicted.