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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    Quote Originally Posted by tonberrian View Post
    3. Samsara doesn't work like that. It is explicitly fallible.
    Except that the book is quite clear that EVERYTHING that Samsara has ever predicted has been true and that the Maidens would be shocked and horrified if it was ever wrong.

    4. The existence of the ring does not explicitly say that the Scarlet Empress is in Malfeas. You can do what ever you please with her. If the players continue to expect that Her Redness is going to be in Hell, that's the fault of stupid players, not the writers.
    The only way they could put the Scarlet Empress any more explicitly in Hell would be to say "The Scarlet Empress is in Hell". That's not stupid players, that's players who can read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andreaz View Post
    Dawn Solution, specifically, I don't see why one would have a problem with. But I'll just wait and let you explain that if you want to.
    First, the Dawn Solution never solved much of anything. Second, the Dawn Solution added additional problem Charms to the line. Third, I don't feel like making my players' Dawns pay an extra 50 XP to be competent at being Dawns. All of the good ideas that are actually contained in the Dawn Solution should have just been errata'd into the hands of every Dawn ever.

    Except it doesn't... RotSE isn't canon. The problem is that's not clear until someone goes and talks about it.
    It's half-canon. Every Charm, artifact, and spell in there is canon. All the rest is a "Here's what the meta-plot says goes next".

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    Screw it. I'm done watching this thread if it's just going to be people arguing.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalisj View Post
    Screw it. I'm done watching this thread if it's just going to be people arguing.
    Is it ever anything else?

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyeudo View Post
    Except that the book is quite clear that EVERYTHING that Samsara has ever predicted has been true and that the Maidens would be shocked and horrified if it was ever wrong.
    It also says that Samsara sometimes just gives a non-answer, basically saying that it doesn't know.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kyeudo View Post
    The only way they could put the Scarlet Empress any more explicitly in Hell would be to say "The Scarlet Empress is in Hell". That's not stupid players, that's players who can read.
    Considering that, aparently, SE has been in Hell since 1ed....
    Yeah, those second edition writers, sticking to pre-established canon, damn them.

    Also, once again, your objection seems to be "they dare right setting materials without consulting me or my games!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyeudo View Post
    First, the Dawn Solution never solved much of anything. Second, the Dawn Solution added additional problem Charms to the line. Third, I don't feel like making my players' Dawns pay an extra 50 XP to be competent at being Dawns. All of the good ideas that are actually contained in the Dawn Solution should have just been errata'd into the hands of every Dawn ever.
    Well, first off, they didn't have the ability to make errata consistently at that time.

    Secondly, I'm not so sure about the claim of not fixing anything. It seems to have made Dawns much better, and while it does require some xp, it massively reduced the XP costs.

    Also, it's interesting that you say that it didn't solve anything, and yet it also seems to be necessary(in your opinion, at least). Can you explain that?


    Quote Originally Posted by Kyeudo View Post
    It's half-canon. Every Charm, artifact, and spell in there is canon. All the rest is a "Here's what the meta-plot says goes next".
    Objectively false. Sorry, you're wrong here, because there is no meta-plot. The RotSE is a possible way for canon to unfold, but no more. It's no more canon than the various chapter comics, which are also non-canon.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalisj View Post
    Screw it. I'm done watching this thread if it's just going to be people arguing.
    I'm with ya there.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    *stuff*
    Tavar again says what I want to say better than me. Why does this forum not have a thank button?
    The name is "tonberrian", even when it begins a sentence. It's magic, I ain't gotta 'splain why.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    Quote Originally Posted by Drascin View Post
    That's stuff I have said, and I'm not going to deny it. I have changed my outlook on some of the details, but I did say it. I have never said they're all baby-rapists. A fair amount of them are going to be good people. Even a bunch of those who are egotistical and ridiculously self centered are unlikely to be baby rapists, they'll just be humanly bad (which when you have the kind of near-unstoppable power Solars get, can and may be enough to screw up everything, mind, but still).
    You're right, I apologize for the baby-raping comment. But, well, some of your comments haven't really made your case that well. I remember at least one comment to the effect of Solars being bigger threats than Abyssals and Infernals, and how you'd rather associate with just about anything instead of a Solar.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    It also says that Samsara sometimes just gives a non-answer, basically saying that it doesn't know.
    No, it means the Maidens can't interpret it. The Maidens can't see all of it. Sachervel, who can see all of it, is never wrong.

    Considering that, aparently, SE has been in Hell since 1ed....
    Yeah, those second edition writers, sticking to pre-established canon, damn them.
    They could have chosen to leave it undefined. It is a new edition, after all.

    Also, once again, your objection seems to be "they dare right setting materials without consulting me or my games!"
    Let me put it a little differently. If they write a new country into the game, big whoop. The map is so big you can lose Australia in it and not change anything. I can just have my game over here and ignore it.

    However, if you write a new type of Exalt into the setting, there are massive ramifications for the setting. There is history that needs rewritten, setting assumptions to question, cross-Exalt interactions to deal with. If there isn't, we have the Lunar problems all over again.

    Alchemicals dodged this bullet by not actually being in the setting. They exist in their little side pocket where they don't have to interact with the setting ever unless you want them to. A Liminal Exalt in Nexus does not give me the same option.

    Well, first off, they didn't have the ability to make errata consistently at that time.
    So the blog where I read the Dawn Solution didn't exist?

    Secondly, I'm not so sure about the claim of not fixing anything. It seems to have made Dawns much better, and while it does require some xp, it massively reduced the XP costs.
    It made fighting Exalts better. Dawns, being fighting Exalts, got better by association.

    Also, it's interesting that you say that it didn't solve anything, and yet it also seems to be necessary(in your opinion, at least). Can you explain that?
    I said it didn't solve much of anything. This is different than solving nothing. The Dawn Solution had a few ideas that were addressed to specific problems that, while not the perfect solution, did have some promise. Take Overdrives, for example. Overdrive is made solely to solve the "I can't spend motes on offense or I die" problem. It doesn't do it perfectly, since there are only a handful of Overdrive Charms, not all are really useful, and they only have Overdrive Charms for Solaroids.

    Objectively false. Sorry, you're wrong here, because there is no meta-plot. The RotSE is a possible way for canon to unfold, but no more. It's no more canon than the various chapter comics, which are also non-canon.
    There is a meta-plot. It just doesn't move forward. It is frozen at the point of "The Scarlet Empress has been gone for five years". It has relics littered throughout the game line, if you are looking for them. They are generally easy to ignore, but they exist.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Except this isn't true, dammit. If you actually read the line involved, it says that some fear that his power is linked to Samsara. Not that is is, that they fear it might be.
    Who's not reading what now? My quote was from RoGD2, not Glories: Maidens. The latter says that Jupiter fears what is stated as true in the former.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    There's also the thing that it really isn't predestination, any more than the Loom is.
    The Loom is the external viewer who collapses the wave function of human decision. While Essence expenditure can shrug it off, breaking free is nigh-impossible for mortals. Samsara expands its power to encompass all things, even those which it should not be able to a la UFvIO. Except the players, because that would be railroading.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Well, maybe. But even if that is the case, why did he not intervene himself? Moreover, why have the gods gotten to be that way, if he was taking an interest before hand.
    I've said it before: Sol can't bring himself to intervene until it's too late. And he has no control over the bureaucracy for the same reason that Sids don't - the corruption just goes too deep. Sol is a King but not a Tyrant - he will not do what needs to be done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    To us, no it's not. To him, though? I'm not saying that he's some virtue driven robot, but for him to break a promise is a terrible, terrible thing, because it grates against his very being. There's an additional reason that I'll get into below.
    Note that we're comparing breaking an oath with risking letting his favorite species accidentally drive itself extinct. Twice. Unless he operates off of Kantian principles, that would be one of the few times even he could conceive of going back on his word. I mean, he did the same with Laashe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Well, couple problems with this. First off, it would require a complete re-write of the setting. Secondly, it kinda misses the point about his character.
    That there is a struggle is a key aspect, yes, but I would rather have Sol's legend be one of defeating all odds through perseverance rather than a cascade of failure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Evidence to support these accusations? I can back up mine, but I think the only thing you can do for yours is the fact that you hate the UCS, and thus he must be bad.
    Tavar, I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with Drascin that you've been trending toward ad hominem arguments. And my evidence is right there: that he would rather fail his duties to his own father and to his fellow gods than break a single oath with humanity. He already broke faith with that rascal Laashe, and I don't see how man as a whole is that much better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Really, it seems to me that your argument is that the UCS should't fail. Shouldn't have emotions. Shouldn't ever doubt himself or his methods.
    Superman doubts. Superman fails. But then he rises up again and again until he succeeds, bleeding and covered in dirt. And I don't even like reading Superman. Sol just kind of failed once and gave up, like the straight-A student who got one B and decided to stop studying altogether.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Maybe he found and answer, and maybe he didn't. In any case, he turned his face from the Solars, because he no longer had hope. And, in time, due to the Usurpation, he turned from Creation itself, because the hope never returned.
    Which is really pretty pathetic. I mean, he could have had a hand in the implementation of the Immaculate Faith or something. By allowing his own worship to become heresy, he was being obnoxiously self-aggrandizing and allowed the quest for Virtue and greatness to become overshadowed by a philosophy of doing just enough to get by and sucking up to overpowered tyrants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Also, I think a key part your missing is that for untold eons he was what you want him to be: the guiding star. And he could be again, but to do that hope must be restored. It fits in with the idea that Creation, currently, is broken. That nothing is working in the order that it should be, but that your PC's can change it.
    Yeah, but half a circle of "good guys" have:
    Kill Sol.
    Free Isidoros and destroy the Loom of Fate.
    Kill Sol.

    as their Motivations, then the setting isn't lending itself toward fixing things, so much as breaking them again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    It would, if the book were solely about them. If you look at the books, they don't simply cover the maidens, Luna, or the UCS.
    Well, yes, but the books are also the definitive source about their respective Incarna. And are not especially helpful in that vein, except for Glories: Maidens, because that's nearly all the information we even have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Having mechanics does not make something mundane. Nor does not having them make something wondrous. Or, that's my opinion, though there's currently a debate on WW forums about this exact topic here.
    If it has stats, it can be killed. Trivially. Players can look it up and plan beforehand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    I will say that I'm not sure the Deathlords were ever intended to be Mysterious Avatars of Death. If anything, that seems to be more of the Abyssals place.
    I can't speak for 1E, as I didn't play back then, but Winters' introduction in Core did kind of imply the same sort of plotness as the Yozis. This sort of thing continued in Abyssals. I would enjoy that level of detail for all of the main NPCs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Can you point out the passages which say that the Maidens act this way? I mean, there's a bit in Maidens that implies this, but only to say that they were like this long ago, and that they have changed.
    I read it as they were changing around the time Kejak decided to kill everyone he didn't like and they ragequit after that.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    The Scarlet Empress being in Malfeas is not canon. You are interpreting that. I don't know why you keep clinging to that as if it were set in stone. The ring doesn't even have to exist in the games you run. It is not like White Wolf employs a team of Canon-Ninjas that will steal into your house and murder you in your sleep if you have Her Redness doing something else completely different than being in Malfeas like Infernals drops hints at. It is merely there to provide a plot hook for you to use or ignore at your leisure. Being morally offended by its existence makes no sense.

    As for Samsara, yes, beings would be very surprised if it were wrong, since it never has. I am quite sure that that's how the Primordials felt after the first one of them was GETed.
    The name is "tonberrian", even when it begins a sentence. It's magic, I ain't gotta 'splain why.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    Quote Originally Posted by tonberrian View Post
    As for Samsara, yes, beings would be very surprised if it were wrong, since it never has. I am quite sure that that's how the Primordials felt after the first one of them was GETed.
    You seem to be focusing on the idea that my players don't have to care what Samsara says. I'm focusing on the setting implications of superfate.

    As far as the setting goes, it has gone from non-deterministic to deterministic. It has gone from a place where any heroic mortal can tell fate "screw you" to a place where the whole universe is following a script. Samsara deprotagonizes the entire setting.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyeudo View Post
    You seem to be focusing on the idea that my players don't have to care what Samsara says. I'm focusing on the setting implications of superfate.

    As far as the setting goes, it has gone from non-deterministic to deterministic. It has gone from a place where any heroic mortal can tell fate "screw you" to a place where the whole universe is following a script. Samsara deprotagonizes the entire setting.
    Why is it that only PCs can buck Samsara? Where is that said?
    The name is "tonberrian", even when it begins a sentence. It's magic, I ain't gotta 'splain why.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyeudo View Post
    No, it means the Maidens can't interpret it. The Maidens can't see all of it. Sachervel, who can see all of it, is never wrong.
    Sacherevell has never been canonically associated with samsara, even if that's the intention. He most likely never will be linked in canon, to leave options open.

    Not to mention, Sachy can't actually see the future. He can only see the present, and nobody can get at that information because, y'know, he's asleep. He locks the universe into predestination if he wakes up, but that's up there with "Neverborn win" for Bad Ends.

    They could have chosen to leave it undefined. It is a new edition, after all.
    It, uh, is undefined, even if it is heavily hinted.

    Find me a canon statement that says the Scarlet Empress is in Hell in 2nd Edition, not just an implication. Hint: You can't do it.

    However, if you write a new type of Exalt into the setting, there are massive ramifications for the setting. There is history that needs rewritten, setting assumptions to question, cross-Exalt interactions to deal with. If there isn't, we have the Lunar problems all over again.
    I am almost positive that the implication given is that the Chernozem are a new thing, and even if they weren't, I would like to actually have more than a couple of sentences and two pieces of art to go on.

    So the blog where I read the Dawn Solution didn't exist?
    I know you've been around long enough to fully know the difference between ETP and the Monkeys.

    There is a meta-plot. It just doesn't move forward. It is frozen at the point of "The Scarlet Empress has been gone for five years". It has relics littered throughout the game line, if you are looking for them. They are generally easy to ignore, but they exist.
    That's, uh, not metaplot, then. That's setting history, unless you want to make the ridiculous claim that every single part of Exalted's backstory is metaplot.

    Metaplot would be going "the Scarlet Empress coming back and being an Infernal agent is canon, deal with it, sucker". Dreams of the First Age inventing a new civilization for the West in that period of time is an expansion of the backstory.

    You seem to be focusing on the idea that my players don't have to care what Samsara says. I'm focusing on the setting implications of superfate.

    As far as the setting goes, it has gone from non-deterministic to deterministic. It has gone from a place where any heroic mortal can tell fate "screw you" to a place where the whole universe is following a script. Samsara deprotagonizes the entire setting.
    Samsara is the shinmaic quantum foam of the universe. Mars can take a look into samsara, shake the magic 8-ball, and because she has access to a ****load of variables, she can pull a LaPlace's demon in regards to her purview. Nothing is predestined. The explicit statement that samsara can be wrong, even if it never has been, should tell you that.
    Last edited by Mr.Bookworm; 2012-02-13 at 10:19 PM.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyeudo View Post
    I'm focusing on the setting implications of superfate.

    As far as the setting goes, it has gone from non-deterministic to deterministic. It has gone from a place where any heroic mortal can tell fate "screw you" to a place where the whole universe is following a script. Samsara deprotagonizes the entire setting.
    .....

    .....

    What.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm View Post
    Samsara is the shinmaic quantum foam of the universe. Mars can take a look into samsara, shake the magic 8-ball, and because she has access to a ****load of variables, she can pull a LaPlace's demon in regards to her purview. Nothing is predestined. The explicit statement that samsara can be wrong, even if it never has been, should tell you that.
    Might want to check again. The only "flaw" canonically given to Samsara is that the Maidens occasionally can't find future events in it. It is never stated to be wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalisj View Post
    .....

    .....

    What.
    Before Samsara existed, you could fight your fate. Now that Samsara exists, you can't fight your fate because your attempts to fight fate were already fated.

    The Loom of Fate's pull was originally written to be very weak. I, as a heroic mortal, could one day go "Screw this, I'm not gonna be a baker, I want to be king", organize an army of bandits and dissedents, and take over the kingdom. If Fate said that I was supposed to be a baker, well, circumstances will arrange themselves against me, but if I try hard enough, I can make the pattern spiders finally give up and say "Fine! You can be king, we're tired of this mess".

    Samsara, on the other hand? No one can make it scream uncle. Not a mortal, not a raksha, not a Primordial, and not a Solar. If Samsara predicts that they will do something, then it will come to pass, because that's how Samsara is written in the setting. There is no error rate. The writers even left guidelines on how to make Samsara infallible even when dealing with PCs.

    With Samsara in existance, all Exalted characters aren't telling their own story. They are acting out someone else's story. They are no longer protagonists.

    YES, I fully realize that this does not change how a game of Exalted is played in any way, shape, or form. HOWEVER, it changes the tone of the setting. It strips away the key element of "My choices matter."
    Last edited by Kyeudo; 2012-02-14 at 02:55 AM.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyeudo View Post
    YES, I fully realize that this does not change how a game of Exalted is played in any way, shape, or form. HOWEVER, it changes the tone of the setting. It strips away the key element of "My choices matter."
    Your opinion. And, while I respect this opinion, I do not agree with it. I will not state why as I ,just like you, am entitled to form my own opinion. Should you take issue with my opinion, you are free to scream until you pass out. I, however, am sick of the self-entitled attitude people seem to take when it comes to what they choose to include in the setting. Every time you run a new game, you change the possible canon.

    Now, who wants to help come up with ideas for my pirate lunar in Tavar's game?
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    Fluff or crunch?
    It is inevitable, of course, that persons of epicurean refinement will in the course of eternity engage in dealings with those of... unsavory character. Record well any transactions made, and repay all favors promptly.. (Thanks to Gnomish Wanderer for the Toreador avatar! )

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    Question!

    What type of Exalted would you guys see Ganondorf as? I know the Twilight Princess version best...

    Seems to me that most of his tricks are more Solar (or, possibly, Infernal) cheese, but then there's that big boar...

    I'm leaning towards Infernal, but I'm not sure what Caste. So, what do you guys think?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Revlid View Post
    And so it was that Zaeed, Aang, Winry, Ezio, Sadoko and Snow White all set out on their epic journey to destroy The Empire.

    God I love Exalted.


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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    Quote Originally Posted by horngeek View Post
    Question!

    What type of Exalted would you guys see Ganondorf as?
    Answer!

    It varies on which game/timeline/whatever you want to go with, seeing how crazy the canon is.

    Quote Originally Posted by horngeek View Post
    Seems to me that most of his tricks are more Solar (or, possibly, Infernal) cheese, but then there's that big boar...
    The boar form could be Birth of Sanity's Sorrow, a Void Circle spell, except that it can only be cast once, ever. It could also be a Sorcery spell of some sort, or Devil-Tyrant Avatar Shintai.

    Quote Originally Posted by horngeek View Post
    I'm leaning towards Infernal, but I'm not sure what Caste. So, what do you guys think?
    I personally would make him a Malfean akuma with Devil-Tyrant Avatar Shintai and some very potent sorcery.

    Or, y'know, we could just wait for meschlum.
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  20. - Top - End - #140
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    Kyeudo

    YES, I fully realize that this does not change how a game of Exalted is played in any way, shape, or form. HOWEVER, it changes the tone of the setting. It strips away the key element of "My choices matter."
    Why did you ignored my post in your answers? There is no such thing like "setting" outside your campaing world.

    And Samsara is just a stupid author saving throw for explaining why if everything important is outside the fate Maidens are able to plan anything.

    You really can ignore it. But if you can't.. well you need to read the sidebar once more:

    If destiny and fate are the grand architecture that the Maidens and their servants construct, samsara is the ultimate blueprint which defines the “as things should” in each Maiden‟s Motivation.
    In other, less complicated, words blueprints != final product; "as things should" != "as things will be".

    So nothing is set in stone and you are plain wrong in your interpretation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kyeudo
    Originally Posted by Turalisj
    Screw it. I'm done watching this thread if it's just going to be people arguing.
    Is it ever anything else?
    Sometimes. Tavar give me a few insight into balance between Infernals and Solars. You really can argue and get better view on things. You can laugh, but some people consider it whole point of arguing.

    --------------------------------------------------------

    On the other hand: I just get time to read MoJ. It is awesome.

    But there is a thing I can't wrap my head around.. 'Guild is decentralized and hard to target", but when someone target it Guild start working in such organized manner.. it is a bit of contradiction.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    I'm interested in running an Exalted game, and I was wondering if I could get some advice on how to go about it. It would be a play-by-post game on these forums, with only Solar PCs. So, if you were looking for a game like that, what would have to be in the recruitment post to convince you to sign up? Would just "Solar game, in the East" be enough, or would you expect more detail up front? Likewise, how much preparation would you expect the ST to have done beforehand? Obviously Exalted PCs need lots of scope for individual initiative, so you can't set up DnD-style encounters. But how much preplanning should go into the antagonists that the PCs will encounter?

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    (In regards to 'people are arguing')
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyeudo View Post
    Is it ever anything else?
    Yes, yes it is. Sometimes we share ideas. Sometimes we look at what Meschlum has done, and are dumbfounded in wonder (Or come up with reasons why it only almost works, and try to make it work fully, when the cheese goes too far.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyeudo View Post
    You seem to be focusing on the idea that my players don't have to care what Samsara says. I'm focusing on the setting implications of superfate.

    As far as the setting goes, it has gone from non-deterministic to deterministic. It has gone from a place where any heroic mortal can tell fate "screw you" to a place where the whole universe is following a script. Samsara deprotagonizes the entire setting.
    This is JUST PLAIN WRONG.
    Samsara does not answer every question the Maidens pose.
    That is the simplest, most powerful problem with this argument: Samsara, if nothing else, does not determine everything.
    It is not just possible, but given the cosmology likely that Samsara cannot touch any action which an Exalt would not be willing to permit.

    There are not one, but TWO flaws already found in Samsara. The first is that the Maidens can only get answers (unknown) times out of ten. Maybe they can ask Samsara, and they've only gotten answers for one in fifty questions. Maybe it's because the other 49 involved Celestial Exalted, or particularly willful Terrestrials. Maybe they assume Samsara would cover Autochthonians only because it's answered questions about other things outside fate, but actually, Fate 2.0 is above even Samsara, and they simply haven't gotten answers about Atuochthonia yet.

    The second flaw is simpler: We lack a lot of information about it. We know about enough to say 'this is a plot device for the Maidens; some amount of the time, they can know the answer to a question about their purview and apply greater than normal power to applying that knowledge, in exchange for being personally unable to oppose it. So far their powers in such cases have been right.'
    Look at the Unconquered Sun; he provokes charm roll-off with 30 successes for his so-called perfection. That's difficult, sure, but frankly, it's a defined number. Stack enough custom charms and even a Terrestrial might be able to scrape together the dice to beat him occasionally. That is the standard of an Incarna's power: So great as to appear insurmountable, but when you can look at the mechanics as we players can and don't fall into the traps those with imperfect knowledge, within the setting, tell us... Suddenly, we can see that no, it's just very hard, not impossible.

    If a heroic mortal wants to be a king instead of a baker, who says that Samsara could give an answer that would gainsay him? All the 'power' of Samsara could rail impotently, unable to grasp so much as a sliver of his mortal willpower, simply because he might decide differently. Only the most certainly-fated things - even if they extend outside Creation - are certain, then. Demons who have something built into them can be predicted, outside fate but not Samsara's predictive power. Mortals who can't be answered with certainty are still inside fate, but they lie outside Samsara; if you ever have to say 'maybe' then it remains maybe. The power of the Maidens would then lie, if that is a true interpretation (It might not be!) in the ability to tell when the answer to a question is certain, rather than a maybe.



    As for Metaplot vs. Canon: Canon is what HAS happened. It is the past. The metaplot, such as RotSE, is what COULD happen, the future - If you change the past, you change the setting. The future, however, is by nature undefined. Those parts of RotSE dealing with the past make it rather clear that these are likely answers to questions about what's already happened. The Ebon Dragon only probably has the Scarlet Empress in Hell already.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth3 View Post
    I'm interested in running an Exalted game, and I was wondering if I could get some advice on how to go about it. It would be a play-by-post game on these forums, with only Solar PCs. So, if you were looking for a game like that, what would have to be in the recruitment post to convince you to sign up? Would just "Solar game, in the East" be enough, or would you expect more detail up front? Likewise, how much preparation would you expect the ST to have done beforehand? Obviously Exalted PCs need lots of scope for individual initiative, so you can't set up DnD-style encounters. But how much preplanning should go into the antagonists that the PCs will encounter?
    I lack the personal experience to answer this question in full, but I can provide some information. I think that you might want to have a little more information on intended theme than 'Solars in the East' - but be prepared for your players to reinterpret that slightly. Don't lock yourself in until you know what you're locking it in for.

    As for antagonists, Exalted probably demands a lot more in terms of keeping track of what resources each 'side' has and cares for. You actually can pre-plan certain sorts of encounter, because they aren't within the PC's immediate, likely control; if the PCs have a city and are halfway across the world, they are unlikely to have the awareness charms to detect an army marching on it until the mortals do, and then they have to find a way to return in time to defend it... Or abandon their people to pursue their current mission.

    I'm afraid I can't give you more than that without going too far outside my sphere of experience and understanding.
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  23. - Top - End - #143
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyeudo View Post
    Might want to check again. The only "flaw" canonically given to Samsara is that the Maidens occasionally can't find future events in it. It is never stated to be wrong.



    Before Samsara existed, you could fight your fate. Now that Samsara exists, you can't fight your fate because your attempts to fight fate were already fated.

    The Loom of Fate's pull was originally written to be very weak. I, as a heroic mortal, could one day go "Screw this, I'm not gonna be a baker, I want to be king", organize an army of bandits and dissedents, and take over the kingdom. If Fate said that I was supposed to be a baker, well, circumstances will arrange themselves against me, but if I try hard enough, I can make the pattern spiders finally give up and say "Fine! You can be king, we're tired of this mess".

    Samsara, on the other hand? No one can make it scream uncle. Not a mortal, not a raksha, not a Primordial, and not a Solar. If Samsara predicts that they will do something, then it will come to pass, because that's how Samsara is written in the setting. There is no error rate. The writers even left guidelines on how to make Samsara infallible even when dealing with PCs.

    With Samsara in existance, all Exalted characters aren't telling their own story. They are acting out someone else's story. They are no longer protagonists.

    YES, I fully realize that this does not change how a game of Exalted is played in any way, shape, or form. HOWEVER, it changes the tone of the setting. It strips away the key element of "My choices matter."
    So in other words, Samsara needs to be destroyed.

    NEW MOTIVATION TIME FOR MY PC!

  24. - Top - End - #144
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyeudo View Post
    The White Wolf board pretty much flatly refuses to consider anything an Ink Monkey creates to be in any way bad.
    I'm just going to chime in and call shenanigans on that, not because it's patently untrue--there is a very vocal support for the freelancers--but because here and throughout the thread, you've inflated it to egregious strawman levels.

    Of course, I can understand and sympathize with your concerns; there's a general problem with the mindset of the Exalted fanbase at present who assume that every Creation is rooted in some nebulous idea of canon.

    But here's the thing: I don't think the Freelancers are your enemy on that count.

    Also, I'm just going to leave this right here.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    I'm not going to get into an argument about whether foreknowledge denies free will, because I was involved in way too many of those in university and they can never, ever end well. Just go and look up pretty much any medieval philosopher and you'll get the quick points on the subject.

    I will, however, touch on the "Why didn't Sol break his oath during the Balorian Crusade" thing. You're suggesting that the Lord of the Cosmos, the being around whom much of the world turns, should have shut down the thing that makes him invincible, removing all of his defenses, in order to ride to war against the most powerful threats to the world in thousands of years?

    I'm not really seeing a way that that will end well for him, or for Creation.
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  26. - Top - End - #146
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    Quote Originally Posted by aetherialDawn View Post
    As for antagonists, Exalted probably demands a lot more in terms of keeping track of what resources each 'side' has and cares for. You actually can pre-plan certain sorts of encounter, because they aren't within the PC's immediate, likely control; if the PCs have a city and are halfway across the world, they are unlikely to have the awareness charms to detect an army marching on it until the mortals do, and then they have to find a way to return in time to defend it... Or abandon their people to pursue their current mission.
    This here is very much an issue. Your players have to be completely aware that this sort of thing is happening. Make up some reason for them to know. If they go off gallivanting in Autochthonia at the same time a string of arsons and murders begins in the Scavenger Lands, the final climactic encounter with the villain won't have any meaning at all. On that note, if your Circle is a complete social abomination, keep them away from Autochthonia entirely. There's something wrong when the Dusk and the "eat everything" Full Moon are trying to keep everyone else in line. Know your players and know when subtle hints that they aren't giving things enough thought aren't going through. And while you're at it, keep some blank, mostly filled villain character sheets lying around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    So in other words, Samsara needs to be destroyed.

    NEW MOTIVATION TIME FOR MY PC!
    It's not quite so bad as Kyuedo makes it sound (so long as Sacheverell is sleeping), but that's never a bad Motivation. Remember that Isidoros is your best friend in this endeavor.

    Re: Samsara is needed so that the Maidens/Sids aren't useless.

    Not really. I'll agree that Fate as a thing for Exalted use fails in its current implementation, but there are other solutions that don't involve this predetermination debate. The way I'd like to see it done (and will probably implement in some form whenever I get around to running another game) is that Fate is a sort of personal spiritual vector. At any given time, a person's Destiny points in the direction they will head if left unchecked; the length of the Strand of Fate can be read indefinitely backwards but becomes fuzzy and unwoven in the future, as different bits and pieces head in various directions, only becoming wound into a more definite direction as time advances. Of course, any sort of major Essence expenditure runs against the Strands like a fierce wind, driving them in some unknown direction. The Loom itself is not some Primordial super-artifact that arranges mortal Destinies in a way that makes them easy to control - at least not since the War, if ever. Rather, it serves as a sort of holographic projection that shows how the individual Strands of all living things weave together into the collective Destiny of Creation.

    Sidereals do not work the Loom with some dumb Craft (Fate) skill that is never really defined - if I keep that, then I'll limit it to Shaping specific, detailed instances of Fate, such as Resplendent Destinies. As for the average Sidereal, though, they manipulate Fate in a way that is much more intuitive. They merely reach out to the Strands they wish to manipulate, touching them at key points like the stars in a constellation in order to subtly shift their natural current. The Strands come to them, bending in a way that is completely natural as a natural effect of their astrological existence, much like excellence is a natural effect of Solars' glorious existence. Each Sidereal has a personal gravity toward Fate. Friends and enemies alike unknowingly cluster around them as their Essence grows and their gravitational field expands, Threads they wish to manipulate literally leap to their fingertips.

    They are the Viziers, unseen, unremembered, but all things gravitate around them. Through their very presence, the Fates of heroes and nations slip out of their natural course in the name of the greater good. And this is merely the result of their natural talent; of course ones so good with delicately nudging Strands with their fingertips would have the greatest affinity for subtle, mystical forms of unarmed fighting - and perhaps archery - invisibly guiding two Fated lovers together (because today).

    Quote Originally Posted by Friv View Post
    I will, however, touch on the "Why didn't Sol break his oath during the Balorian Crusade" thing. You're suggesting that the Lord of the Cosmos, the being around whom much of the world turns, should have shut down the thing that makes him invincible, removing all of his defenses, in order to ride to war against the most powerful threats to the world in thousands of years?
    Yes. Because that's his job and his duty. If he's willing to get in a naked fistfight with a supercharged Laashe, then surely it's not such a big deal to ride against Balor defenseless, especially when the raksha camp is divided anyway and the fate of Creation itself is at stake. It's thought that Balor was considering sounding the retreat at the time of the Realm Defense Grid's activation, but the record is of the raksha and thus as much fiction as fact. Come to think of it, I'd rather enjoy hearing about the Yozis' reaction to the Crusade. I don't think it's been mentioned. Similarly, I wonder whether Gaia was too far out to send any subsouls to help or if she really doesn't care what happens to Creation as much as she used to - she mainly comes back for Luna, after all.

  27. - Top - End - #147
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gensh View Post
    Yes. Because that's his job and his duty. If he's willing to get in a naked fistfight with a supercharged Laashe, then surely it's not such a big deal to ride against Balor defenseless, especially when the raksha camp is divided anyway and the fate of Creation itself is at stake. It's thought that Balor was considering sounding the retreat at the time of the Realm Defense Grid's activation, but the record is of the raksha and thus as much fiction as fact.
    Really? I don't recall that - I remember a discussion about a couple of the power players planning to assassinate Balor. However, I have to thank you, because now you've helped me to decide what not just the Sun, but the other Incarnae were doing for the whole Crusade. It is now just a picture in my head of the Sun very slowly staggering towards the door of the Jade Pleasure Dome, with Luna and the Maidens draped all over him desperately trying to hold him back long enough to keep him from dropping into the middle of the invasion and dying, because Saturn knows that if the Sun goes down there, he'll seriously die, and they can slow him down now because he broke his oath by trying to leave. The Empress triggers her attack just as he beats the other Incarnae by reaching the front door.

    Come to think of it, I'd rather enjoy hearing about the Yozis' reaction to the Crusade. I don't think it's been mentioned. Similarly, I wonder whether Gaia was too far out to send any subsouls to help or if she really doesn't care what happens to Creation as much as she used to - she mainly comes back for Luna, after all.
    IIRC, there was something in Compass: Malfeas on the subject, and it amounted to "crapping their pants in terror". The assembled armies of Malfeas were gathered around the thirteen gates to Creation, anticipating the moment when endless hordes of Chaos would swarm in and start murdering everything.

    Similarly, it wouldn't surprise me if Gaia did launch an attack, but since she was away it was from the opposite side of the infinite hordes, and no one in Creation really had a chance to see it in detail. It was just one more element of the forces trying to defend the world.

    (Or, hey, maybe Gaia bred the hann'ya to attack the Balorian Crusade. ;) )

    *EDIT* Ah, what the hell, here's a little ficlet. Spoilered for being innuendo-filled.

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    "Venus! Grab his leg!"
    "I am grabbing his leg!"
    "That is not his leg, Venus."
    "Shut up, Jupiter!"
    "Whatever! I've got his upper left arm! Mercury, grab his spear!"
    "No thanks. I'm not Venus."
    "His actual spear, Mercury."
    "Oh. Right. Got it."
    "LET GO OF ME! I MUST PROTECT CREATION!"
    "You are going to die. Really, honestly, die."
    "Luna, hide the spear!"
    "Done. Oh, he's grabbed it again. Okay, it's better hidden this time."
    "Mercury, give us a push or something!"
    "I'm trying!"
    "You could help, Saturn!"
    "T-touch him? No, no I couldn't. You're doing fine."
    Last edited by Friv; 2012-02-14 at 10:55 AM.
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  28. - Top - End - #148
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyeudo View Post
    YES, I fully realize that this does not change how a game of Exalted is played in any way, shape, or form. HOWEVER, it changes the tone of the setting. It strips away the key element of "My choices matter."
    A thought occurs. Philosophically, there is not necessarily any difference between a world with free will and a world without. As long as mortals and exalts make decisions, they make decisions, even if the decision is predetermined. Because if you have the choice between eat dinner and go hungry, it doesn't take samsara to know what'll happen. If you spent thirty years hunting down Ligier, and have your daiklaive at his throat, Samsara may well say you'll kill him. And it will be right-and that in no way diminishes your decision.

    Now, my interpretation of Samsara would be that if you were TOLD Samsara said you'd kill him, this new information could and might make you change your mind.
    ...if it did, it's likely that Samsara said 'If he is told, he will change his mind.'
    That in no way stops you having changed your mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by GryffonDurime View Post
    I sorta want to apply, but I probably wouldn't stick with it, and a skype game sounds awkward.
    I will say your quote made me giggle though.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    I sorta want to apply, but I probably wouldn't stick with it, and a skype game sounds awkward.
    My group currently plays via Skype...
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

    I'd be doomed without Sykpe. No one around my city likes Exalted.

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