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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Old Republic II: Hutts don't have feet!

    Quote Originally Posted by Karoht View Post
    To be truthful, in all my years of playing that other mmo, I have never personally seen anyone kicked due to poor DPS. And I have seen some freaking BAD DPS in my time.
    I was benched for a while in my Rift raiding guild because I wasn't putting out the numbers the other rogues were.
    Quote Originally Posted by Karoht View Post
    I have used the data to help troubleshoot other healers in the past, mostly by figuring out what abilities they leaned on the most and the least, or if they were using their cooldowns or not, that sort of jazz. 9 times out of 10, if someone is performing poorly, there is a perfectly normal reason (lag/computer/UI issues notwithstanding) and it can usually be found in the combat log. Our Melee DPS officer does exactly the same thing, as does our Range DPS officer.
    And this is what got me back onto the raiding roster. I sat down with a friend as we looked at combat logs and parses, and we figured out the problem in my rotation - I was letting one of my DoTs fall off my target.

    Just recently, I had another chat with the same friend on the same subject. I had been close to the output of the other rogues in the raid, but consistently just a little lower. We fixed a problem in my rotation - I was using the wrong secondary finisher - and now I'm at the top of the pack.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RabbitHoleLost View Post
    Mango:you sick, twisted bastard <3
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryffon View Post
    I think Krade is protesting the use of the word mad in in the phrase mad scientist as it promotes ambiguity. Are they angry? Are they crazy? Some of both? Not to mention, it also often connotates some degree of evilness. In the future we should be more careful to use proper classification.

    Mango is a dastardly irate unhinged scientist, for realz.

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Old Republic II: Hutts don't have feet!

    Excellent, another example of the tool being used correctly.

    Biggest thing to remember is that numbers aren't everything. being 1% behind the average is fine. Being much more than 1% behind the average means that something is likely wrong. And output is usually fixable with a minor change or two.

    I have tried my hand at DPS in the past, after being a main healer for 8 years. I'm not good at it. But without a meter to measure performance, and some benchmarks for comparison, I would never know that and would only be guessing at my performance level. And I'll be the first to admit, I'm a decent healer, but I have no business being a DPS, at least for the time being. As such, I haven't tried to bring my DPS alts into raiding, mostly out of courtesy to other players. Better performers deserve raid spots, and I would be dragging the group down and I know it. I'll put myself under the microscope first before anyone else because I know full well that I'm not perfect.

    Quite a few people who end up benched due to low numbers, know they are doing low numbers for a while but do nothing about it. They don't research anything, they don't try anything different, they don't analyze themselves. Sometimes it's just a gear issue and a critical upgrade fixes things. Sometimes it's just a lack of experience, and a bit more practice goes a long way. Sometimes is an incorrect understanding of how to play the class/spec, a quick read of a guide or a little tip here or there and suddenly it all comes together. And sometimes it's an attitude issue, but I won't go into that because that discussion gets non-constructive in an aweful hurry.
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Old Republic II: Hutts don't have feet!

    Quote Originally Posted by Karoht View Post
    I have used the data to help troubleshoot other healers in the past, mostly by figuring out what abilities they leaned on the most and the least, or if they were using their cooldowns or not, that sort of jazz. 9 times out of 10, if someone is performing poorly, there is a perfectly normal reason (lag/computer/UI issues notwithstanding) and it can usually be found in the combat log. Our Melee DPS officer does exactly the same thing, as does our Range DPS officer.

    Example:
    We had a tank who just seemed squishier than most other tanks. He usually out-geared those tanks as well, so we couldn't figure out why he wasn't surviving better. Then we looked at combat log data. He wasn't using a core ability which accounted for quite a bit of his damage reduction.
    So we asked him why. 2 reasons:
    1-In previous tier of content, it was much less useful for the encounters there, so he ended up taking it off his bar, and forgot it existed.
    2-At the start of the current tier of content, the ability had been buffed slightly, and he didn't read the patch notes.
    One check of logs, one bit of research, one quick discussion, boom, problem solved, he went back to being awesome.

    This is what my guild in that other mmo uses our combat log and related addon's to analyze. See above for a similar example.
    This pretty much sums up why I'm for the combat log feature in its current form. I like working with numbers and I like becoming good at games, which of course together translates to my being the type who loves to squeeze every little bit I can out of an RPG (within reason). With a log I can look at later, I have an easy way of knowing just how badly I'm screwing up my Affliction refreshes on a given day.

    Now, on the other hand, I find the idea of a real-time DPS/healing/threat meter just silly. Number crunching is something you do before or after a fight, not during it.
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Old Republic II: Hutts don't have feet!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sith_Happens View Post
    Now, on the other hand, I find the idea of a real-time DPS/healing/threat meter just silly. Number crunching is something you do before or after a fight, not during it.
    Threat meters are useful because it can be nice to know that you're about to pull the boss off the tank before it turns and one-shots you. If you're aware that your damage output is generating more threat than the tank, you can slow down or stop. A boss with a breath or cleave mechanic can wipe the group if it turns.

    Real-time dps/healing meters are useful because they allow you to compare your performance to the other players in your group. The ones with damage breakdowns are particularly nice. You can look at them and say, "Oh, I'm doing less damage/healing than PlayerX because he's using AbilityY and I'm not." For fights with enrage timers, you can tell at a glance whether your group is putting out enough damage to beat the boss. If two players die and you can only battleress one of them, a dps meter lets you prioritize objectively.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RabbitHoleLost View Post
    Mango:you sick, twisted bastard <3
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryffon View Post
    I think Krade is protesting the use of the word mad in in the phrase mad scientist as it promotes ambiguity. Are they angry? Are they crazy? Some of both? Not to mention, it also often connotates some degree of evilness. In the future we should be more careful to use proper classification.

    Mango is a dastardly irate unhinged scientist, for realz.

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Old Republic II: Hutts don't have feet!

    So, I'm trying this game out with the trial invite and I'm gradually pushing my Knight towards level 10. Should I go with Guardian or Sentinel? I've heard that it can be pretty hard to solo with the Sentinel, and I plan to solo as much as possible.
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Old Republic II: Hutts don't have feet!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeivar View Post
    So, I'm trying this game out with the trial invite and I'm gradually pushing my Knight towards level 10. Should I go with Guardian or Sentinel? I've heard that it can be pretty hard to solo with the Sentinel, and I plan to solo as much as possible.
    You can solo with the Sentinel in the Watchman tree if you focus on the burns and critical hits for self-healing, but Guardian is easier in the long run because it's more survivable.

    The Focus tree has a lot of AoE so that can also work, but it becomes a five button game as you oscillate between Force Leap, Force Sweep, a second version of leap that I cannot remember the name of, the equivalent of Force Choke, and your Focus builder. (Note, my familiarity with the Sentinel terms is stretched a little because I have a Marauder, and while most of everything works the same, the names are all different for "flair".)

    As it exists, the Combat tree is a POS and I recommend it to no one. It's a shame because I really like the concept of the Ataru style and the Combat tree has some really useful skills. Maybe that will change when they re-stack everything for 1.2.

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Old Republic II: Hutts don't have feet!

    5 Online Games That Would've Been Better Off As Single-Player Experiences

    In light of the recent news of THQ shifting the development of Warhammer 40,000: Dark Millenium from an MMO to a single-player experience the folks at GameSpy have penned a list of titles that would have been better as single-player experiences. Undoubtedly their choice to include Star Wars: The Old Republic in the list will spark some discussions:

    If MMOs were only about leveling your character to the level cap, Star Wars: The Old Republic would likely be the best game in the genre. Other games' attempts to spice up the grind with scripted events and witty quest text seem backward after experiencing one of SWTOR's choice-based narratives, which result in companion NPCs that you care about and meaningful explanations for killing those 10 Sith and collecting those five blasters. But that's part of the problem.

    BioWare excels at delivering some of the best stories in the business (if not the best endings), but SWTOR's first months prove that such a story-based approach works best when it's not anchored to an evolving beast like an MMO. Its finest charms harken back to BioWare's previous successes, and it's somewhat telling that, without exception, the most excitement I witness in new players springs from learning the identity of "the Jedi Prisoner" about halfway through the story. Once you've finished your class story and started the dirty business of endgame content, SWTOR's derivative structure and mechanics begin to weigh heavily on its better aspects, and even your beloved companions become little more than glorified versions of World of Warcraft's succubi. SWTOR's survival depends on getting that constant dose of narrative for players who don't care for leveling alts, and a single-player sequel to Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic with a multiplayer option may have done a better job.

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Old Republic II: Hutts don't have feet!

    Quote Originally Posted by VanBuren View Post
    5 Online Games That Would've Been Better Off As Single-Player Experiences

    In light of the recent news of THQ shifting the development of Warhammer 40,000: Dark Millenium from an MMO to a single-player experience the folks at GameSpy have penned a list of titles that would have been better as single-player experiences. Undoubtedly their choice to include Star Wars: The Old Republic in the list will spark some discussions:
    Gamespy, of course, misses completely the reason behind ToR, which is to populate a universe with Star Wars types where the players are compelled by the story their character is in and the personality and morals the player gives their character.
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Old Republic II: Hutts don't have feet!

    I think I may have screwed up. I hit level 10 and went to see the trainer supposed to help me select an advanced class. But I hit Escape rather than pick one because I wanted more time to think it over, and now I can't talk to him anymore and he act like I've already picked a class.
    So how do I select an advanced class now?
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Old Republic II: Hutts don't have feet!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeivar View Post
    I think I may have screwed up. I hit level 10 and went to see the trainer supposed to help me select an advanced class. But I hit Escape rather than pick one because I wanted more time to think it over, and now I can't talk to him anymore and he act like I've already picked a class.
    So how do I select an advanced class now?
    You can't now. Now you can never select an advanced class.

    Or you can try looking up into the top right corner. There you should (I think) find a blinking tab that says "Pending" click on that and voila you can select it.
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Old Republic II: Hutts don't have feet!

    There's one guy that gives you a quest to talk to another guy to pick your advanced class. I don't think you can talk to the first again. If you don't have the pending button that was mentioned, open your map and see if there's a quest turn-in marker.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RabbitHoleLost View Post
    Mango:you sick, twisted bastard <3
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryffon View Post
    I think Krade is protesting the use of the word mad in in the phrase mad scientist as it promotes ambiguity. Are they angry? Are they crazy? Some of both? Not to mention, it also often connotates some degree of evilness. In the future we should be more careful to use proper classification.

    Mango is a dastardly irate unhinged scientist, for realz.

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Old Republic II: Hutts don't have feet!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeivar View Post
    I think I may have screwed up. I hit level 10 and went to see the trainer supposed to help me select an advanced class. But I hit Escape rather than pick one because I wanted more time to think it over, and now I can't talk to him anymore and he act like I've already picked a class.
    So how do I select an advanced class now?
    Just press K or open up the Skill Tree, it should be flashing.

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Old Republic II: Hutts don't have feet!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jokes View Post
    Just press K or open up the Skill Tree, it should be flashing.
    Ah. That worked. Thanks.
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Old Republic II: Hutts don't have feet!

    So, am I right in assuming that the Defense talent tree is the best way to solo a Guardian?
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Old Republic II: Hutts don't have feet!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeivar View Post
    So, am I right in assuming that the Defense talent tree is the best way to solo a Guardian?
    *shrug* I certainly did pretty well with the Juggernaught's version of it. On the other hand, since Sith Warriors get their healing companions earlier than Jedi Knights do, Juggernaughts are easier off than Guardians in that regard.

    If you're on the trial account, you're not going to get far enough for the real problems DPS face leveling for your talent selection to matter, so pick the talent tree that most appeals to you. If, on the other hand, you've actually bought the game already, I'd probably go with Defense for levelling, at least for the first 31 points. Personally, I'm going to use a different setup once 1.2 comes up, though.
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    Default Star Wars: The Old Republic Novare Coast Warzone Spotlight Trailer

    Star Wars: The Old Republic's forthcoming Game Update 1.2 will be adding a new PvP warzone called the Novare Coast, and that's what we're given a closer look at in this new two-minute, combat-heavy trailer. Vie for control of the Western and Eastern Emplacements:

    http://youtu.be/qjNr8WDX1K0

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Old Republic II: Hutts don't have feet!

    Okay, I just spent the two days at PAX East, with at least four hours spent at the SWTOR booth, playing their newest 1.2 build and its content (Novare Coast, Legacy, etc.), and also spent a fair bit of time chatting with their developers and producers.


    I can answer some questions, or if you guys want me to ask something for you, post here and I'll try to ask them during their Q&A.
    Last edited by Neftren; 2012-04-07 at 08:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Old Republic II: Hutts don't have feet!

    Quote Originally Posted by MCerberus View Post
    Gamespy, of course, misses completely the reason behind ToR, which is to populate a universe with Star Wars types where the players are compelled by the story their character is in and the personality and morals the player gives their character.
    Actually, Gamespy is missing ALL the points. It basically says that the problem with APB, DCUO, and STO is that they don't have strong storytelling, i.e. they aren't SW:TOR; the problem with FFXIV is that it isn't, you know, a good game; and the problem with SW:TOR is that... it's somehow automatically better if a game ends as soon as its story does?

    I mean, seriously, they spend a total of six paragraphs peddling the idea that if you made a game single-player you could then give it a good story, and then render their own argument invalid by invoking the name of Star Wars: The Old Republic.

    All in all, I give this article four facepalms out of five.
    Last edited by Sith_Happens; 2012-04-09 at 01:32 AM.
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Old Republic II: Hutts don't have feet!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sith_Happens View Post
    Actually, Gamespy is missing ALL the points. It basically says that the problem with APB, DCUO, and STO is that they don't have strong storytelling, i.e. they aren't SW:TOR; the problem with FFXIV is that it isn't, you know, a good game; and the problem with SW:TOR is that... it's somehow automatically better if a game ends as soon as its story does?

    I mean, seriously, they spend a total of six paragraphs peddling the idea that if you made a game single-player you could then give it a good story, and then render their own argument invalid by invoking the name of Star Wars: The Old Republic.

    All in all, I give this article four facepalms out of five.
    I think they're saying that a those games could have been good if they'd been single player games and could have had a narrative, but they believe a narrative structure doesn't work with an MMO, as "proven" by SWTOR.
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Old Republic II: Hutts don't have feet!

    Quote Originally Posted by VanBuren View Post
    SWTOR's survival depends on getting that constant dose of narrative for players who don't care for leveling alts, and a single-player sequel to Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic with a multiplayer option may have done a better job
    If you're not leveling at least one other alt (for the other side), you're missing an incredible amount of content. Folks may argue with me and tell me I'm repeating myself too much, but I honestly feel if you're a person who wants to just kit out one character, this is not your game, and pointing out its major strength as its major flaw is just odd to me, especially since there are plenty of other things for which you really could take them to task.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeivar View Post
    So, am I right in assuming that the Defense talent tree is the best way to solo a Guardian?
    It's very slow. Vigilance is a little easier to start off with. You won't notice survivability issues until you're in your mid-30s, and at that point, you can respec (first one is free, and after that it's pretty cheap) and switch over to Defense. By then you'll have plenty of skill points and powers to make tanking (for either solo or grouping) less irritating. Note: Powertech/Vanguards also run into this. Strangely enough, Shadows/Assassins don't seem to have the same issue... if they're going to Tank, they're better off jumping right into their Tank tree, as it gives them a lot of low-end survivability.

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Old Republic II: Hutts don't have feet!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sith_Happens View Post
    All in all, I give this article four facepalms out of five.
    Thank you sir. I am now going to utilize this as a new benchmark of measurement.


    I do agree that as a single player game it would still have done remarkably well. As someone watching streams as well as having played a bit, I am often wondering why it isn't a single-player game with multiplayer extentions.

    And then I enter a heavily populated area with other people doing things. And it explains itself rather easily for me.


    Odd little question.
    I've noticed that most of my friends have many 'cool story bro' moments in the game, but it's all from the cinematics and not from the gameplay. Any idea why that is?
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Old Republic II: Hutts don't have feet!

    It may just be the curmudgeon in me, but I actually agree with the Gamespy article. If you simply remove the excellent single-player style class mission arc from SW:TOR, you're left with a rather unfinished, mediocre WoW clone. While it's probably the best-executed effort at cloning WoW, it still doesn't actually measure up to WoW itself in terms of depth, quality of story telling, features or polish.

    The class missions are, of course, excellent, festooned with cut-scenes and mostly good dialogue. I've played 2 characters through their arcs, and both were quite enjoyable. Barring a few story quibbles (Die, Quinn, die), they're really what you paid for when you spent your $60 on the title. And then, there's the generic content. Stupefyingly bland and mostly forgettable, these missions wind up falling into the same grist for the mill vein over and over again, and the bonus missions are even worse. When WoW sent you out from a mission hub, you'd at least get a set of goals you could complete concurrently. But in their infinite wisdom, Bioware implemented a staged system where you have to complete your goals serially. Kill 25 mobs. Then blow up crates that the same type of mob has been guarding. Then go find a ground spawn that's protected by yet more of the same mobs. Finally go summon a boss who's a tougher version of the same mobs, and kill him. The result: Drudgery. The bonus series on each planet is this concept writ large. You've finished anything resembling a coherent storyline for a planet, but you're not leveled adequately for the next zone, so why not bum around this rock for another couple of levels doing some incoherent and largely unmoored content involving killing lots of critters.

    So what's the merit of attaching a huge amount of server infrastructure and a monthly fee to what is, at the end of the day, a single player game with a rather bland MMO bolted onto the back end of it? I can certainly see how the business types like it, making it subscription-based makes it impossible to pirate and secures recurring revenue. But from the perspective of a player I'm far less certain of its merits. Once you've gotten through your single player class arc, a wasteland of repetition awaits you. The endgame progression consists of grinding daily missions for a week and change, then diving into Operations and Hard modes, over and over and over again. If you're looking for a multiplayer experience where four friends can jump into an instance and have fun, Left4Dead2 delivers better gameplay for a one-time purchase of $15.

    The bottom line problem with the MMO formula is that the developers hold the players hostage with a reward schedule to get them to keep paying to play, and that flaw is very, VERY apparent in SWTOR.

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Old Republic II: Hutts don't have feet!

    And this would be the "plenty of other things for which you really could take them to task" to which I referred.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    When WoW sent you out from a mission hub, you'd at least get a set of goals you could complete concurrently.
    To be honest, SWTOR has a lot of this... but it's not consistent and it's really easy to get off track.

    It's abundantly clear that different teams created different planets. For instance, you can tell that the guys who created Coruscant created Nar Shaddaa, and it's not just because of the general city layout or the "jumping for Holocrons" business. You can also tell those aren't the same guys who designed Tattooine or Dromund Kaas. The problem is it doesn't look like a 3rd party QA guy ever sat behind someone and watched someone else go through each of the planets (I understand why... it'd be mind-numbing) and note not just where quests are located, but also in what order they activate. The different design teams and lack of rigorous reconciliation also means some planets are better at the "hubbing" concept than others.

    Your first run through of the game is irritating as hell because of the amount of backtracking you do. You don't know that you should hold off going to the next leg of your class story quest until you get to that area with other quests and unlock all of the quests in that area. Once you've played the game for awhile, you figure it out... but that's after you're already pissed off. I don't know of a good way to fix it, given their design. It'd be hard to retrofit phasing and all quests are essentially "optional" except for the class quests.

    Additionally, while planet quests do "progress" from hub to hub, class quests also sometimes take you back and forth across a planet (my Agent spent a lot of time on a speeder on Alderaan) and it's hard to know where you're really going next so you don't know if you should "finish" an area or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    But in their infinite wisdom, Bioware implemented a staged system where you have to complete your goals serially. Kill 25 mobs. Then blow up crates that the same type of mob has been guarding. Then go find a ground spawn that's protected by yet more of the same mobs. Finally go summon a boss who's a tougher version of the same mobs, and kill him. The result: Drudgery. The bonus series on each planet is this concept writ large.
    The bonus quests are just that... a bonus. You get some extra money, some extra experience, and some extra toys. That being said, the staged stuff is a little irritating because you can get off track easily and end up having to go "backwards", or go really "deep" into a zone for the next stage when you have no real need to be there.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    So what's the merit of attaching a huge amount of server infrastructure and a monthly fee to what is, at the end of the day, a single player game with a rather bland MMO bolted onto the back end of it? I can certainly see how the business types like it, making it subscription-based makes it impossible to pirate and secures recurring revenue.
    You have answered your own question here.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    The bottom line problem with the MMO formula is that the developers hold the players hostage with a reward schedule to get them to keep paying to play, and that flaw is very, VERY apparent in SWTOR.
    One could argue this is a common flaw of every subscription MMO. Hell, the free-to-play MMOs use their own carrot & sticks for generating revenue. Even the multiplayer shooters are getting into DLC and other unlockables-for-cash schemes. I don't disagree that it's a problem, but it's industry-wide. I do object to the "hostage" part, though... you're not locked into any contract.

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    Someone once said, the greatest casual game will be a single player game with a chatroom attatched to it. This remark, while entirely sarcastic in context (it was intended as a joke, really, not a serious prediction) at times seems to describe SWTOR for me.

    But, I still think Bioware went the right way with it. There is enough MMO elements to make it a great game to play with friends if that is what one is looking for (I don't price compare games, I find it largely pointless), and if you want a great single player experience, you get that in spades.

    Personally, I don't expect Bioware to stick with the subscription model for all that long. The content and DLC models that Bioware is used to make the 'Freemium' model a remarkably sound decision. Not a prediction, more just a hunch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gooddragon1 View Post
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Old Republic II: Hutts don't have feet!

    Well the glorious thing about ToR is something that gets destroyed or lessened if it is moved to single player. The story has an overall theme of 'shades of grey' for the Empire, but each class and each way the player goes through it gives a little more.

    Take the Inquisitor. Dark side is about a perpetuating cycle of betrayal. Light side about changing the system from the inside. Neutral hits a lot on what it truly means to be free. Now take all of this, mix in more people that have had entirely different stories and character developments, and the PCs start actually interacting. The rest of your party can be stunned by what YOU do or say (for our guild, remember the first time we ran through the robot uprising FP?) that feels completely in character for your toon.

    It's brilliant. It ties in each player while having different stories, and it gives players ownership of their own character's personality in a world where everyone else has it too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCerberus View Post
    Well the glorious thing about ToR is something that gets destroyed or lessened if it is moved to single player. The story has an overall theme of 'shades of grey' for the Empire, but each class and each way the player goes through it gives a little more.
    Had the game development been a Single Player game, they would have had a greater suite of tools available to them for generating content, especially when it comes to each class. As an MMO, it means they had more variables to test, and more factors to consider for each and every NPC (or literally anything else) you ever come across, all because of the fact that it is taking place in a persistant world, with tools for developing a persistant world open to everyone. It entirely changes the developer tools for creating content altogether, just because it is an MMO and has outside concerns to worry about. Just having the base interaction within a persistant world is pretty complicated, and just because other games have done it doesn't mean that reproducing it is fast or cheap, or that the tools you use to create content are abundant and cheap either. In other words, for all the awesomeness you got for the single player aspects of the game, you were robbed of much more potential just because it was an MMO.

    But, to counterbalance that point, I will also point out that a Single Player game would not have received the same amount of funding to produce it, nor would it have been given the same timeline for production, and therefore that potential isn't really lost.
    ~~Courage is not the lack of fear~~
    Quote Originally Posted by gooddragon1 View Post
    If the party wizard can't survive a supersonic dragon made of iron at epic levels it's his own fault really.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo View Post
    And this would be the "plenty of other things for which you really could take them to task" to which I referred.
    Sure, but it disclaiming it doesn't make it not true.

    The bonus quests are just that... a bonus. You get some extra money, some extra experience, and some extra toys. That being said, the staged stuff is a little irritating because you can get off track easily and end up having to go "backwards", or go really "deep" into a zone for the next stage when you have no real need to be there.
    But you DO have a need to be there. If you don't complete the bonus series content you'll find yourself falling behind the challenge curve as you progress through the game. If you're not fortunate enough to have a buddy or three to take you through the group missions, the bonus series is what gets you up to the next level, and the commendations are what gear up you and your companion sufficiently to be able to tackle the later content. And the way I know this is the case is that I had friends who skipped that content only to regret it later, when they hit a tough mission for which they were completely unequipped to cope.

    You have answered your own question here.
    No, my question is what is the VIRTUE of the subscription model. The fact that it puts more money in the pockets of the publisher is not, in itself, virtuous.

    One could argue this is a common flaw of every subscription MMO. Hell, the free-to-play MMOs use their own carrot & sticks for generating revenue. Even the multiplayer shooters are getting into DLC and other unlockables-for-cash schemes. I don't disagree that it's a problem, but it's industry-wide. I do object to the "hostage" part, though... you're not locked into any contract.
    Actually, I have argued that these are common flaws in ever subscription MMO. At least with DLC you're getting fee for service. You aren't beholden to pay a fee merely to be able to log into the game. And it's not the buyer that's held hostage, it's the content. Yes, you're able to drop your contract at any time, and it's certainly shaky ground to be criticizing a deal which people enter into voluntarily. That said, the VALUE of that exchange is, in my opinion, dubious in the extreme. I've played a lot of MMO games, over many, many years, and I've enjoyed them. But after over a decade of playing these games, I'm not convinced that there's any native improvement on the multiplayer experience from ordinary matchmaking services used in a game like Guild Wars, or any RTS or FPS title you care to name.

    If you bought every WoW expansion from launch, the games cost you $240.00. But the subscription fees set you back at least $1247.04. Your experience may differ, but my experience has been that the lion's share of the value was in the expansion content, not in the incremental updates to end-game meted out in roughly three month intervals. What's more, the imperative to keep people playing the game during the inter-expansion periods is what compels the game developers to impose the fun-destroying reward schedules that turn what was a brisk and fun experience while leveling into a drudgerous grind at endgame.

    So you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but mine is that Gamespy is correct. SWTOR would have been far better had it been a single player game. You may enjoy the endgame treadmill, but I'm finding it tedious to say the least, and on 5/15, I fully expect to step off.

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Old Republic II: Hutts don't have feet!

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    What's more, the imperative to keep people playing the game during the inter-expansion periods is what compels the game developers to impose the fun-destroying reward schedules that turn what was a brisk and fun experience while leveling into a drudgerous grind at endgame.
    As an endgame raider, I've never been in it for the gear, I've always been in it for the challenge. The gear is just a bonus, and for the most part the gear isn't always a gating system to progression, but it's definately a help when you're stuck. Not every fight is about what loot you are wearing. Not every fight is about how well you can 'dance' and avoid damage.
    People who view endgame as a gear treadmill tend to go into it with the wrong mindset. They are there for the gear, and aren't actually commited to the challenge, they just think they are. I am generalizing a bit here, mind you.


    You may enjoy the endgame treadmill, but I'm finding it tedious to say the least, and on 5/15, I fully expect to step off.
    If you're talking about that date for the reason I think you are, PM me.
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    All in all, MMO's that are focused on raiding or similar content are always going to be about endgame. If there is a specific type of content that you are working towards being able to participate in, whether it is at level 1 or level 999, it could be considered your endgame. Then there is content that the developers build and balance around and basically stake it out as 'endgame' content or progression content. I've always said, in any game, in any MMO, endgame is what you make of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gooddragon1 View Post
    If the party wizard can't survive a supersonic dragon made of iron at epic levels it's his own fault really.
    "In soviet dungeon, aboleth farms you!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karoht View Post
    As an endgame raider, I've never been in it for the gear, I've always been in it for the challenge. The gear is just a bonus, and for the most part the gear isn't always a gating system to progression, but it's definately a help when you're stuck. Not every fight is about what loot you are wearing. Not every fight is about how well you can 'dance' and avoid damage.
    People who view endgame as a gear treadmill tend to go into it with the wrong mindset. They are there for the gear, and aren't actually commited to the challenge, they just think they are. I am generalizing a bit here, mind you.
    That's certainly fine, but my experience has been that the challenges of end game have little to do with making the gameplay challenging, and most have to do with middle-management challenges like recruitment, scheduling and equitable loot distribution.

    All in all, MMO's that are focused on raiding or similar content are always going to be about endgame. If there is a specific type of content that you are working towards being able to participate in, whether it is at level 1 or level 999, it could be considered your endgame. Then there is content that the developers build and balance around and basically stake it out as 'endgame' content or progression content. I've always said, in any game, in any MMO, endgame is what you make of it.
    Yeah, that's where I have to disagree. Endgame is where the developers stopped running track for the progression train and resort to forced repetition and reward schedules to slow down the rate at which you can complete content. How many times did you need to farm Molten Core to get your guild geared enough to handle Blackwing Lair? Yes, later expansions included daily quest content to give late-comers a leg up on progression, but that's just trading solo progression for guild progression, and at the end of the day, you're still running in circles waiting for the devs to build more track.

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