My Little Pony XXXVIII: Nopony Expects Sponish Pinquisition!

[Pendulous]

Just gotta rant a little, so sorry in advance.

Got a new job recently, working a closing cook at Hardee's. Yeah, crappy job is crappy, but I just passed a year mark being unemployed. I thought it was going to be ok, but boy was I wrong. They stuck me closing, by myself, the second week I was there, and that's only after closing two days prior. They also didn't train me properly, nor did they give me enough time to really learn anything anyway. I'm getting bitched at by managers, different ones, and my trainer, who's kind of a ****, for things beyond my control. I'm exhausted, both physically and mentally. Physically, it would be nice if they ever gave me a break, but that can't happen. I don't even have time at night to grab a quick drink, because I'm way behind on all the crap I gotta get done each night. Mentally, because of what I mentioned, it feels like they're trying to destroy my soul, or something. I don't know, but I've never felt so underappreciated in all my life, and I worked at Wal-Mart.

And it's not like I'm some kid who's just working his first job and complaining about it. I'm almost 30, I've had plenty of jobs, and I've never felt this way before. It all seems worthless, like minimum wage working like this is just going to end up killing me (whether literally or figuratively), all for naught.

To make matters worse, my internet has been going out constantly for the past week. I called AT&T, they ran diagnostics and whatever on my modem, said everything was fine. So I asked for a technician. He came out, checked out my stuff, said everything was fine. I called again. They said all that's left to do is replace the modem. Which, of course, I have to pay for. Why, I don't know. But it's $120 total, 100 for the modem, 20 for shipping. Which I call BS on, I've dealt with other ISP's before (Charter), and A. they replaced my modem for free....multiple times, and B. It was never the issue. These people have a hard-on apparently for lying as much as they can to try to prove they're not incompetent morons (the first guy claimed it was my anti-virus that was killing my connection, the third said something about other electronics in my house causing interference). It's just been such a horrible week.

I know I don't post here much, even before my internet decided to just say "screw the rules", but I still felt like ranting. So, sorry again.

[Kyouhen]

Just gotta rant a little, so sorry in advance.

Got a new job recently, working a closing cook at Hardee's. Yeah, crappy job is crappy, but I just passed a year mark being unemployed. I thought it was going to be ok, but boy was I wrong. They stuck me closing, by myself, the second week I was there, and that's only after closing two days prior. They also didn't train me properly, nor did they give me enough time to really learn anything anyway. I'm getting bitched at by managers, different ones, and my trainer, who's kind of a ****, for things beyond my control. I'm exhausted, both physically and mentally. Physically, it would be nice if they ever gave me a break, but that can't happen. I don't even have time at night to grab a quick drink, because I'm way behind on all the crap I gotta get done each night. Mentally, because of what I mentioned, it feels like they're trying to destroy my soul, or something. I don't know, but I've never felt so underappreciated in all my life, and I worked at Wal-Mart.

And it's not like I'm some kid who's just working his first job and complaining about it. I'm almost 30, I've had plenty of jobs, and I've never felt this way before. It all seems worthless, like minimum wage working like this is just going to end up killing me (whether literally or figuratively), all for naught.

To make matters worse, my internet has been going out constantly for the past week. I called AT&T, they ran diagnostics and whatever on my modem, said everything was fine. So I asked for a technician. He came out, checked out my stuff, said everything was fine. I called again. They said all that's left to do is replace the modem. Which, of course, I have to pay for. Why, I don't know. But it's $120 total, 100 for the modem, 20 for shipping. Which I call BS on, I've dealt with other ISP's before (Charter), and A. they replaced my modem for free....multiple times, and B. It was never the issue. These people have a hard-on apparently for lying as much as they can to try to prove they're not incompetent morons (the first guy claimed it was my anti-virus that was killing my connection, the third said something about other electronics in my house causing interference). It's just been such a horrible week.

I know I don't post here much, even before my internet decided to just say "screw the rules", but I still felt like ranting. So, sorry again.

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I know how you feel. I used to have a graveyard shift at a coffee shop that included me opening. I had to get everything ready over the course of the night (protip: coffee shops with drive-throughs are always busy), had to do it without help, and had to manage both the front counter and the drive-through after I opened. Then I got yelled at by customers because I couldn't go fast enough and supervisors because I couldn't get everything done. You can either hold on and hope things get better or get out of there and let them find someone else to put up with it. I'm sure that's already obvious to you, though, so I'll just follow up by saying that you can always come and rant at us.

[HalfTangible]

Wrong.

You did not enjoy it. Alright. We get that.
Almost all of us did enjoy it. I find it highly likely that an even larger proportion of the INTENDED audience liked it.

It may have ruined it for you, but that still doesn't make it bad.

... Lix. It was an opinion. As evidenced by the qualitative statements of 'best' and 'good'.

It is simply not normal for people to break out into song and dance and get everyone around them to join in as chorus. As far as delivering the story goes, doing so in random song is ever so much filler and would be down right odd to be done in reality. Something a certain pony demonstrates on occaison.

Take At the Gala, all we "add" from the song is Twilight's bit. It could have been handled in 30 seconds of dialogue spliced into time spent getting to the Gala. And that's all there is to the song.

Stop trying to ruin the rest of the songs too, you're succeeding.

The difference is, At The Gala doesn't smack you over the head with each of their motivations (it just tells you them and moves to the next pony), what they wanted to do there was only mentioned one other time throughout the entire season, it isn't possible to infer it any other way, and it had six ponies to explain.

So why are they done... well because they are damn fun and engaging for everyone involved. Even grim and dark song in a number enhance the pure enjoyment of it all. Sure you can use a song to powerfully advance a plot, but this does not change the core of the trope has nothing to do with that and is about practicing entertainment in perhaps its purest form, and certainly does not manifest as any particular number needing to be more or less meaningful then the rest.

Not that the Smile song is without its meaning.

I didn't find Smile fun or engaging and I find series that try to cram musical numbers everywhere to be infuriating in any case.

So lets see if I've got this right then.... you figured Pinkie out long long ago so she's not entitled to a big musical number to show off who she is?

Uh-huh.

Twilight didn't start a parade for her daily checklist. Rarity didn't need to sing about being clean in Look Before you Sleep. Fluttershy doesn't need to compose limericks for treating Philomena. Applejack didn't need to write a sonnet about Apple-bucking.

Rainbow got a fanclub. In the first three minutes. That was worse than smile. But it's in the same vein: it's ridiculous and makes the entire town grasp one giant "I don't have any sense" ball.

But putting all that aside... Pinkie Pie's songs have until this point gotten a pass from me because they were short, fun, and generally seen as weird by just about everypony else. Smile breaks all three of those at the same time: it's long, everypony joins in, and it's so nauseatingly cheerful that-

... Ya know what, i've said that one enough.

Also for the record the only previous instance of her deep motivation for her love of parties is in her Cutie Mark Chronicle where the Rainboom makes her smile and she starts thinking of ways to share that feeling. While its certainly consistent with her broader character, if you've somehow figured that out long ago (and frankly I smell retro-active justification) from small hints its certainly not been dealt with center stage before.

And Twilight has never directly said 'The princess' approval means everything to me' but it's still pretty obvious.

Throughout the entire series, she is shown to be dedicated to making others happy - She throws a party for Gilda even though she didn't really deserve it "to improve her attitude", she actually states in her cutie mark flashback that she wanted to make everypony smile, and she goes crazy when she thinks that even five of her friends don't wanna party with her any more (though since everypony in town is her friend in canon now that episode seems... more than a little off)

Heck, her very first appearance has her justify breaking into Twilight's house (somehow pulling the knowledge of it's location from the cosmos and her twitching tail) and throwing her a party because "[she] didn't have any friends and if [she] didn't have any friends [she] must be lonely" and now that she had lots and lots of friends life was good again.

Now for the last time, please stop trying to convince me that Smile is good. You will never convince me.

I frankly wouldn't reasonably expect someone to have picked up on it before now so claiming that they should have and therefore the musical number is an unnecessary waste of time comes off as arrogance in my book.

... I cannot seriously be the only one who caught that before this episode. Nu-uh. Not probable. Not even possible. I am not that smart, and I am not that empathetic towards happy and hyper teen girls that don't know when to stop talking. The people I have been arguing with for the last three pages can attest that I am stupid, an *******, and have no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

I cannot. Be. The only person. Who knew this.

[Tiki Snakes]

Eh, holding on is an option, but it's far from your only one. *

Might be worth just keeping looking. They say it's a lot easier to find a new job when you are already in work.

[Edit]* - Oh, don't get me wrong, this is no time to be unemployed. The alternative is to get a new job, and just survive your current one in the meantime.

[Pendulous]

Eh, holding on is an option, but it's far from your only one.

Might be worth just keeping looking. They say it's a lot easier to find a new job when you are already in work.

It's your only option when you live in an apartment that requires you to have some sort of income. I'm not hurting on money right now, not by a long shot, but I can't quit, at least not until my manager fills out the forms to have my rent changed. Even then, a year to find a job, it's a long time. And my unemployed brother who isn't legally supposed to be here but is because I'm a doormat isn't helping, unless you count ALWAYS being here, and eating everything I BUY. So yeah, really in a jam.

[TheAmishPirate]

It's Tuesday, but I'll still say this first image has spoilers. And a great reference.

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Also, I've kicked everything in the room, and this is still not getting started. I think I'm doing it wrong. Maybe I should try filling the hard drive with quarters again...

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[Pokonic]

Also, I've kicked everything in the room, and this is still not getting started. I think I'm doing it wrong. Maybe I should try filling the hard drive with quarters again...

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I have no idea where you found this, but keep posting pics around the same line as this one.

Magical horses: Totaly better than magical dogs. Yes, even if said dog is voiced by Bender.

[Colonel Fedora]

I feel this entire argument is getting a little out of hand. Maybe everyone should just stop for a bit before this gets too personal. I might be reacting over an entirely innocuous discussion, but it feels like this might get really angry really soon, and I don't think any of us want that.

[TheAmishPirate]

I have no idea where you found this, but keep posting pics around the same line as this one.

Magical horses: Totaly better than magical dogs. Yes, even if said dog is voiced by Bender.

Your wish is my command. What time is it?

IMAGE DUMP TIME!

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HNNNNNNGHHHHHHHH DAT PINKIE

Heh, some of those were from past ponythreads.

I feel this entire argument is getting a little out of hand. Maybe everyone should just stop for a bit before this gets too personal. I might be reacting over an entirely innocuous discussion, but it feels like this might get really angry really soon, and I don't think any of us want that.

Agreed. Or, rather, agree to disagree? Or is it disagree to enmity? Or was it essentially foresee an idiosyncrasy? Bah, that's what I get for working all day on fixing bugs

[Forum Explorer]

Just gotta rant a little, so sorry in advance.

Got a new job recently, working a closing cook at Hardee's. Yeah, crappy job is crappy, but I just passed a year mark being unemployed. I thought it was going to be ok, but boy was I wrong. They stuck me closing, by myself, the second week I was there, and that's only after closing two days prior. They also didn't train me properly, nor did they give me enough time to really learn anything anyway. I'm getting bitched at by managers, different ones, and my trainer, who's kind of a ****, for things beyond my control. I'm exhausted, both physically and mentally. Physically, it would be nice if they ever gave me a break, but that can't happen. I don't even have time at night to grab a quick drink, because I'm way behind on all the crap I gotta get done each night. Mentally, because of what I mentioned, it feels like they're trying to destroy my soul, or something. I don't know, but I've never felt so underappreciated in all my life, and I worked at Wal-Mart.

And it's not like I'm some kid who's just working his first job and complaining about it. I'm almost 30, I've had plenty of jobs, and I've never felt this way before. It all seems worthless, like minimum wage working like this is just going to end up killing me (whether literally or figuratively), all for naught.

To make matters worse, my internet has been going out constantly for the past week. I called AT&T, they ran diagnostics and whatever on my modem, said everything was fine. So I asked for a technician. He came out, checked out my stuff, said everything was fine. I called again. They said all that's left to do is replace the modem. Which, of course, I have to pay for. Why, I don't know. But it's $120 total, 100 for the modem, 20 for shipping. Which I call BS on, I've dealt with other ISP's before (Charter), and A. they replaced my modem for free....multiple times, and B. It was never the issue. These people have a hard-on apparently for lying as much as they can to try to prove they're not incompetent morons (the first guy claimed it was my anti-virus that was killing my connection, the third said something about other electronics in my house causing interference). It's just been such a horrible week.

I know I don't post here much, even before my internet decided to just say "screw the rules", but I still felt like ranting. So, sorry again.

Sucks to hear that. I hope things improve and you find a better place to work/better service provider soon.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Stop trying to ruin the rest of the songs too, you're succeeding.

Then you are clearly in the wrong frame of mind to watch musical numbers.

Turn off reality when the music starts to play. The moment you treat them or at least the ones in this show as Serious Business you've missed the point. Its good advice for musical theater in general.

I didn't find Smile fun or engaging and I find series that try to cram musical numbers everywhere to be infuriating in any case.

You may be watching the wrong show then.

Twilight didn't start a parade for her daily checklist. Rarity didn't need to sing about being clean in Look Before you Sleep. Fluttershy doesn't need to compose limericks for treating Philomena. Applejack didn't need to write a sonnet about Apple-bucking.

Which doesn't mean they couldn't have and it wouldn't be any more or less appropriate to do so.

For that matter we need a Twilight song dang it.

Rainbow got a fanclub. In the first three minutes. That was worse than smile. But it's in the same vein: it's ridiculous and makes the entire town grasp one giant "I don't have any sense" ball.

And that's even a point of comparison for you is really demonstrative I think of the point you are missing.

I can even agree the fanclub is a bit much, but its not "in the same vein" as a musical number.

But putting all that aside... Pinkie Pie's songs have until this point gotten a pass from me because they were short, fun, and generally seen as weird by just about everypony else. Smile breaks all three of those at the same time: it's long, everypony joins in, and it's so nauseatingly cheerful that-

... Ya know what, i've said that one enough.

This seems to be the real issue here.There's a trope for it too.

And here... yeah I totally see this reaction. I don't share it but I have something similar with Fluttershy. Most people seem to like her, there's even some loose data suggesting she's #2 in the brony fandom, but she just doesn't appeal to me. She's easily my least favorite of the mane six and behind several side character if I really had to be pressed on the matter.

I am however recognizing a matter of purely personal taste as opposed to something more justifiably wrong with the character design.

And Twilight has never directly said 'The princess' approval means everything to me' but it's still pretty obvious.

Yes its a running theme in Twi's character, but its something that only takes center stage in Lesson Zero. If they do Lesson Zero again at some point then the equation changes. And there's still wiggle room like highlighting a different element of how important Celestia is to Twi, like a song about how Twi considers Celestia a surrogate mother.

You are arguing essentially that because Twi light's desperate efforts for approval from the Princess is a running theme that Lesson Zero is a bad episode for featuring it.

... I cannot seriously be the only one who caught that before this episode. Nu-uh. Not probable. Not even possible. I am not that smart, and I am not that empathetic towards happy and hyper teen girls that don't know when to stop talking. The people I have been arguing with for the last three pages can attest that I am stupid, an *******, and have no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

I cannot. Be. The only person. Who knew this.

Pick up on a characterization =/= song around it is invalid

I certainly wasn't going "ah-hah this is how Pinkie thinks" when I heard the song but I wasn't thinking they were somehow wasting my time either because I wasn't gaining critical new insights into a character.

[HalfTangible]

Then you-

No. Nope. I hate it, it's like crap in my ears. Not even going to try and justify myself anymore.

Good day.

[Anarion]

Agreed. Or, rather, agree to disagree? Or is it disagree to enmity? Or was it essentially foresee an idiosyncrasy? Bah, that's what I get for working all day on fixing bugs

Ooh, how about consent to dissent? concur to differ? Oh, I got it! Harmonize to discord. yeah that last one might be something different.


How about a different topic? EQD earlier today hosted a "what has MLP meant to you" topic. Lots of interesting replies there, but it definitely got me thinking. I've never been a particularly depressed or aimless person, but I still think that watching Friendship is Magic has made me happier and more confident, in a sort of general subconscious way. I also find it nice for a bit of perspective, since it expresses some pretty simple yet core values, whereas so much of the remainder of my life is dedicated to trying to resolve contentious and controversial issues.

So, how about everypony else? What has My Little Pony meant to you?

Edit: @Pendulous: AT&T has been having some pretty bad fallout from their blown merger with T-mobile. Hold out a few more months, they might finally get around to fixing things come summer.

[Pendulous]

Sucks to hear that. I hope things improve and you find a better place to work/better service provider soon.

Except there is no other option here, minus Charter, and they literally spent nine months actively trying to screw me over. I will be glad to provide you with the open account I had with the Better Business Bureau during my time with the most retarded business that ever existed.

[Forum Explorer]

Except there is no other option here, minus Charter, and they literally spent nine months actively trying to screw me over. I will be glad to provide you with the open account I had with the Better Business Bureau during my time with the most retarded business that ever existed.

Ouch, well this is just a parade of bad news. I guess you'll just have to hold on till things improve.

[BlasTech]

Hey, hey you guys. All you guys arguing up there. Ya hear me?

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Now play nice or I'll break out the scootaloo.

[Bayonet Priest]

Now play nice or I'll break out the scootaloo.

You guys better listen. I don't think he's bluffing.

[Kyouhen]

I feel this entire argument is getting a little out of hand. Maybe everyone should just stop for a bit before this gets too personal. I might be reacting over an entirely innocuous discussion, but it feels like this might get really angry really soon, and I don't think any of us want that.

Agreed! I say we take a page from the Pirate Party's book and am putting forth a motion for pony time. If the motion passes we must take a break from this discussion to watch some pony.

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There's a coloured one?!? Why did nopony tell me about this?

[HalfTangible]

So, how about everypony else? What has My Little Pony meant to you?

A form of escapism that leaves one laughing, smiling and trying to be a better person.

And the first example I have ever seen of an introverted protagonist done WELL. Granted, she's not THE main character anymore ( phooey ) but it was wonderful while it lasted, which is all you can ask for from... anything, really =)

...

Twilight is best pony.

[TheAmishPirate]

A form of escapism that leaves one laughing, smiling and trying to be a better person.

And the first example I have ever seen of an introverted protagonist done WELL. Granted, she's not THE main character anymore ( phooey ) but it was wonderful while it lasted, which is all you can ask for from... anything, really =)

...

Twilight is best pony.

Silly, that's not how you spell Pipsqu-

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...nghhh...nope. Can't bring myself to disagree. Then I'd be exposed to watery-eyed FillyTwi, and that might very well be the end of my organs. But yes, agree absolutely. There's so much more to that type of character than "I read books all the time and don't talk to people," and it's refreshing to see that done right.

As for what pony has done for me...well, it got me writing again. Which, considering how I'm going into game design, has already helped me tons. Creative process, work ethic, all that good stuff. It's played a part in getting me to stop making excuses to myself and just get up and do things. I used to always see things that were not getting taken care of and think, "Huh, somebody should really take care of that." Now I just get up and do it. And guess what? Nopony's yelled at me for stepping out of line yet. Most importantly? It's gotten me to meet all of you. All that stuff I just mentioned was in part inspired by the show, but I doubt it would've had quite the impact if it wasn't for you folks encouraging me, and overall being a joy to hang around. I'd count that as the biggest thing that pony has done for me.

Also, it's been one of the only girl's cartoons in years that I can watch without wanting to claw my brains out.

@Pendulous: I'll be praying things get better. In the meantime, have massive pony hugs:

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[HalfTangible]

Also, it's been one of the only girl's cartoons in years that I can watch without wanting to claw my brains out.

Yeah but... i thought that went without saying

I mean sure, MLP doesn't make me wanna claw my eyes out, but it also makes me feel good, and the latter is why i watch it. And why i suffer through the songs long enough to start liking them.

@Pendulous: I wish i could say I knew what that was like and offer condolences. But I can't. So... have condolences!

And pony hugs!

...

Platonic pony hugs.

...

OH CRAP HOW COULD I FORGET PONYHAMMER?!

In fact I think I got into Warhammer because of that Ponyhammer art... Or was it the other way around? Meh, either way, it connects two of my currently favorite things into one despite all logic, which is absolutely awesome.

[Forum Explorer]

OH CRAP HOW COULD I FORGET PONYHAMMER?!

In fact I think I got into Warhammer because of that Ponyhammer art... Or was it the other way around? Meh, either way, it connects two of my currently favorite things into one despite all logic, which is absolutely awesome.

Ooh you have a warhammer army? Which one? what size?

[HalfTangible]

Ooh you have a warhammer army? Which one? what size?

It's currently a 1000 point custom space marine chapter called the Eclipse Hounds Hawks but I use blood angels rules for 'em. Mostly because they were the only one i could find that had Assault Marines as troops. I think I'll compose their first company out of terminators and use Dark Angels rules for 'em after I get a few games under my belt, though.

This should really go in the warhammer thread.

....

*goes to find the warhammer thread*

[Soras Teva Gee]

Now play nice or I'll break out the scootaloo.

Bring it on I'm not.... chicken!
*Dodges incoming groan propelled fruit products*

[erikun]

New comic from EQD. I bear no responsibility for any damaged organs. You have been warned.

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Returning fire!

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[Pendulous]

Returning fire!

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First part reminds me of Super Mario RPG when Gaz was playing with his dolls.

As far as MLP goes, before recently, I was a rather unemotional person. I'm not gonna sit here and say "I'm a man, I don't have emotions, blah blah stupid blah", but there's a reason on another forum my title has always been "Apathy King". I've been watching the show since about September. I think since I started watching the show, I've had a lot of emotion pouring from me, and I don't know what to do with it. It doesn't help it came along during a rather bad time in my life either.

[the_druid_droid]

@Pendulous: Sorry to hear about the mess with the job. I hope things get better for you, or that you're at least able to hold out until something better comes along.

Re: What FiM's done for me

Well, probably helped me make it through the first year or so of grad school. Admittedly, there were times that I probably should have been doing things besides surfing the pony thread or looking at ponibooru, but the show was something light and happy and encouraging in a place that can often be pretty harsh. Pony's also the reason I met a lot of you wonderful folks, and that's justification enough right there. Plus, the show helped remind me that I don't have to have my SRS BSNS face on all the time...

[DarkReaper1382]

So has the meaning of Smile eluded everypony
Maybe even the meaning of this show in general
Its about friendship and LOVE AND TOLERANCE
If you can't realize this you probably don't belong here
ITS A PINK PONY SINGING, and people are going to complain that its too happy?
Their idea's truth eludes me
It is beyond annoying and pointless that we filled even this much of a thread fighting over that fact that A PINK PONY IS SINGING A SONG THAT MAY OR MAY NOT BE TOO HAPPY!
People realize this is still a show based for kids, even with the surprising audience the show is not going to go hardcore and have ponies stab each other and have them singing about death
I may be new here but an entire discussion about why a PINK PONY singing a song 'bout friendship is too happy I just feel this can't be right
Its a happy show get over it or don't watch it

In other news:
Another day another argument it seems
No explosions or hospitalizations it was boring
I'm talking with another student and one of the brony hates walks up, trying to look all cool
He is not
taps my shoulder and starts swearing at me and insulting me
He was terrible at making fun of others
So he says,"I'm going to kill you, You retarded freak brony!"
Doesn't end well for him
Moves to slap me and I duck
He slaps the other kid we were conversing with
The other kid hits their head on the way down and starts crying like mad
Brony hater goes, "Oh, my god dude are you ok, oh my god, oh my god, dude you know I didn't do it mean it right I'd never hurt you."
He turns on me screaming this is you fault i'm going to kill you!
Mind you he just cried over hitting a kid, let alone kill an immortal
He moves to hit us again
Greeted by my uppercut sending him sprawling onto the ground crying like a baby
We walked out untouched with those 2 on the ground crying

People gotta learn messing with me is a bad idea especially if you question my beliefs

[Kyouhen]

What FiM has done for me:
Well for starters it's brought back my creative energy. It kind of got trampled after years of having no time for nothing but work, but for some reason those adorable ponies just gave me the urge to make things. It's also gotten me back into learning how to play piano. I just seem to have this constant flow of creative energy that I need to do something with.
It's also made me overall happier or more emotional or maybe just more emotionally sensitive or something. Not sure what it is but it's affected my state of mind and the world just seems to be a more positive place, and I seem to be more empathetic towards the problems of others. This is the change that confuses me the most, though it's entirely possible ponies just came along at a point in my life when I'd be more susceptible to that type of change. I'd love to figure out just what it is about this show that caused this change as it fascinates me that anything as simple as a cartoon about ponies could have such a massive effect on my mentality.

[PhantomFox]

Okay, now here's a question. I've been feeling like ranking the episodes so far, but that implies that the lesser episodes are BAD, when they're just weakER than the others. What'd be a good way to objectively rate the episodes? I mean, I could do a 1-10 scale, but what benchmarks do we base that off of?