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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    So let's assume the current arc ends somewhat the way most people seem to expect it now - that being, Durkon comes back as entirely Durkon and none of the relevant personae dies (Durkon, Hilgya, Kudzu, potentially Durkon's mother):
    HOW will Durkon and Hilgya deal with their newfound common responsibility for little Kudzu? Hilgya has so far been setting him up on a course that not only is contrary to everything Durkon believes in, but also potentially sets him up for an eternity in Hel's clutches. Unless her convinced, but not entirely convincing trust in a god of trickery is justified, that is. What will Durkon do about this? Saving people from Hel through personal sacrifice is one dilemma - saving them (potentially) against the wishes of their mother an entirely different one. And that's without considering Kudzu's afterlife even if he dies with honor - Hilgya does straddle the line between chaotic neutral and chaotic evil, according to most opinions here. What will he do? How will this work out?

    In a related matter: Assuming the Giant has the story end with the dwarfs relieved of the grossly unjust rule on their afterlife (which is another question of its own), could they resolve their alignment differences and raise Kudzu together, as amiably separated parents? Hilgya may be irredeemably chaotic, but not irredeemably evil(ish). Durkon has himself gained appreciation for chaotic characters like Elan (and seemed to get along well with cousin Logann and uncle Thirden, both of which strike me as somewhat similar characters). Might it be that beyond proving the value of his character as it is and was, he will also grow in understanding the flaws of dwarven society amd allowing for more freedom-loving, chaotic dwarfs?

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    You're asking a question none of us can even begin to answer. Questions of joint parenting are complicated enough in real-life, let alone in a story like this.

    And family members potentially going to different afterlives is just a feature of this world, nothing can really be done about that.

    But as far as the Dwarves situation changing by the end of this, I take as a given the same way I take the Goblinoids lot in life changing as a given. Rich just isn't the type of writer who would highlight these kinds of injustices and end his story with the status quo intact.

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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    You're asking a question none of us can even begin to answer.
    You underestimate my ego!

    ...i got nothin', though.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    But if I may posit something anyway, I think it's fairly likely Hilgya's opinion of Durkon will change for the better.

    I doubt they'll ever see eye-to-eye on which gods are worth worshipping and things like that, but they'll be amicable enough that Durkon and his family will have a comfortable place in Kudzu's life.

    Beyond that though, I got nothing.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2018-08-23 at 11:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    I dunno, she seems pretty dead set on vilifying Durkon, and even if she is able to have an actual heart-to-heart with him, their value systems seem too radically different to really reconcile. The honor-bound, Good dwarf who is so honorably Good that he defeated the vampire at his own game is a far cry from the woman who is so distrustful and vengeful that she insists on bringing her own baby to a fight with a vampire army. At the very least until they interact again, I don't see any way they can bridge the massive chasm that separates them.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    Well, I don't imagine she'll ever like Durkon. But unless Hilgya dies or something, I don't see her leaving Kudzu's life, and I don't see Durkon not being in it either, so a compromise will have to be met.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2018-08-24 at 02:36 AM.

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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    Hilgya does not seem like the compromising type, is the thing.
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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    I feel pretty confident Durkon, or the rest or the Order, or both, will be able to shift Hilgya's view on him.1 After all, it wasn't their alignment differences that drove them apart the first time; it was Durkon's discovery that Hilgya already had a husband. With that no longer being the case, and with Durkon indeed now being the father of Hilgya's child, he would, I assume, be much more amenable to having some kind of positive relationship with her (even if they don't "get back together," for lack of a better term). And given how quickly Hilgya's opinions of Durkon have flipped in the past, I could certainly see that happening again here.

    (1 - The Doylist perspective being, of course, that they'll have to, because Durkon's not not going to be in his son's life, but he's not going to murder Hilgya to get custody, either. For many reasons I can't imagine we're going to see him sue for custody.)

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    Durkon's problem with Hylgia was that she was married. Hylgia is now legally divorced. End of the problem.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    It really isn't though. The two are fundamentally incompatible in a number of areas. The marriage thing was just the first thing to highlight it.

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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    Lo those many years ago, Rich was willing to write Durkon as Lawful Crazy enough to fixate on "you're married!" and ignore both "to a man you describe as horribly abusive" and "you tried to poison him."

    Him treating Durkon's moral sense as a joke now seems far less likely. "Hilgya is no longer married" will not be what determines his primary response here.
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    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    My guess is that Hilgya may end up making some sort of Heroic Sacrifice in the final boss battle against the Exarch, thus causing the situation to resolve itself.

    Or I guess she could end up siding with the Exarch, because she hates Durkon and the dwarves. The only ways to resurrect Durkon that we know about are either Hilgya doing it, or if the Order was able to get back the Resurrection scroll he was saving and gets someone to cast it (but who? it's divine magic).
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  13. - Top - End - #13
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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Durkon's problem with Hylgia was that she was married. Hylgia is now legally divorced. End of the problem.
    End of Durkon's problem with Hilgya's status, sure.
    End of Hilgya's problem with Durkon, by no means sure.

    I don't know that I actually expect a resolution to occur on-screen. Or if it's really something that we'll just know that Durkon is going to try, AFTER the world is saved.

  14. - Top - End - #14
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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    Quote Originally Posted by drazen View Post
    My guess is that Hilgya may end up making some sort of Heroic Sacrifice in the final boss battle against the Exarch, thus causing the situation to resolve itself.

    Or I guess she could end up siding with the Exarch, because she hates Durkon and the dwarves. The only ways to resurrect Durkon that we know about are either Hilgya doing it, or if the Order was able to get back the Resurrection scroll he was saving and gets someone to cast it (but who? it's divine magic).
    I believe Thor himself is probably capable of casting a rez directly.
    Especially in his own temple, especially with Greg out of the picture. (and thus no longer technically a cleric-vs-cleric contest / anything that might threaten treaties/agreements among the gods.)

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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    Quote Originally Posted by drazen View Post
    Or I guess she could end up siding with the Exarch, because she hates Durkon and the dwarves.
    Hilgya is a cleric of Loki. She's probably not going to go against her god without a very, very, VERY good reason.

    Also, while Hilgya dislikes the traditional dwarven way of life, she still came back to her home because she missed it. And she's the mother of a dwarf. She's not going to doom her son and her whole species to Hel that easily, even if she believes she can weasel out of that doom herself (although her theory to escape Hel rests on her following Loki's teachings, and if she stops following Loki's teachings and fights against the will of her god, does that still apply because betraying Loki is even more Loki-like, or does her whole scheme [that is not even confirmed to work in the first place] go out of the window?).
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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandor View Post
    I believe Thor himself is probably capable of casting a rez directly.
    Especially in his own temple, especially with [...] out of the picture. (and thus no longer technically a cleric-vs-cleric contest / anything that might threaten treaties/agreements among the gods.)
    1) They're not in Thor's temple.
    2) "Thor can resurrect Durkon without anyone casting the spell" would be a literal deus ex something, and would raise the question of why Hel can't simply take a comparable action before Thor does, and make Greg stand back up as a vampire again, as many times as it takes for her to win.
    Last edited by Kish; 2018-08-24 at 08:07 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    Well, Greg didn't really have a body himself, he was highjacking Durkon's. If Thor was to hypothetically resurrected Durkon directly, I doubt Hel could just put another vampire spirit in him (or someone else) or just make them bodies of their own.

    On Hilgya, she hates Dwarven customs, but not Dwarvenkind. Part of her stated reason for following Loki is so that she can show other dwarves there's a different way to live. She probably sees (most of them) trapped in the same way she eventually came to see Ivan (or whatever his name) as trapped in their marriage just as she was.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Colossus in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    Well, Greg didn't really have a body himself, he was highjacking Durkon's. If Thor was to hypothetically resurrected Durkon directly, I doubt Hel could just put another vampire spirit in him (or someone else) or just make them bodies of their own.
    My point is that at that point you're saying: Thor can intervene directly on the Prime Material Plane in a huge way, Hel has nothing comparable. It would be as big a ripoff as someone's earlier proposal that Odin would just say "I'm declaring that every dwarven death caused by the world being destroyed counts as a death in honorable combat against the Snarl."
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  19. - Top - End - #19
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    Well, they’ll certainly have to work through the fact that Hilgya wants to kill Durkon. Perhaps she’ll feel mollified now that he’s died once? Beyond that, I can’t see Hilgya and Durkon getting back together or anything, so I’d go with amicibale separated parents for my guess.


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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandor View Post
    End of Durkon's problem with Hilgya's status, sure.
    End of Hilgya's problem with Durkon, by no means sure.

    I don't know that I actually expect a resolution to occur on-screen. Or if it's really something that we'll just know that Durkon is going to try, AFTER the world is saved.

    Hilgya doesn't appear to be interested in anyone interfering in her life, and is unlikely to want Durkon "inflicting" dwarven morals on Kudzu. I also don't see any difference with her motives to kill Durkon when she met the order and her motives to [re]kill the "real" Durkon now.

    Same old Durkon. It isn't clear if Hilgya wants a daddy for Kudzu, but I can't see her accepting Durkon. She's easily as chaotic crazy as Durkon is lawful steadfast (unless of course her side of all the stories are completely true. Odds of extrordinary claims being true that are coming from a priestess of Loki appear unlikely).

  21. - Top - End - #21
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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Durkon's problem with Hylgia was that she was married. Hylgia is now legally divorced. End of the problem.
    Only that there's lots of places where the man who is married to the mother of a baby is automatically the father, legally, because there was no way to prove otherwise for most of human history.

    I strongly suspect similar laws to be in place in OOTS-verse

    Durkon gave up any and all rights to Kudzu the moment he told Hilgya to go back to her husband (instead of asking her if she was on contraception and begging her to get a divorce). Her ex-husband is now very likely legally the father of Kudzu, and the one who could sue for rights to see the kid.

    Perhaps Hilgya will be sufficiently impressed with Durkon's heroism to let him see the kid, but as of now, Durkon is just a sperm donor, and one who might not even be able to prove the kid is his - depending on whether there's a spell for it in a D&D rulebook somewhere.
    (I only believe that Durkon is Kudzu's father because of story-logic ... Elan is usually right about such things.)

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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    Only that there's lots of places where the man who is married to the mother of a baby is automatically the father, legally, because there was no way to prove otherwise for most of human history.

    I strongly suspect similar laws to be in place in OOTS-verse
    Bet taken.
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  23. - Top - End - #23
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    Only that there's lots of places where the man who is married to the mother of a baby is automatically the father, legally, because there was no way to prove otherwise for most of human history.

    I strongly suspect similar laws to be in place in OOTS-verse

    Durkon gave up any and all rights to Kudzu the moment he told Hilgya to go back to her husband (instead of asking her if she was on contraception and begging her to get a divorce). Her ex-husband is now very likely legally the father of Kudzu, and the one who could sue for rights to see the kid.

    Perhaps Hilgya will be sufficiently impressed with Durkon's heroism to let him see the kid, but as of now, Durkon is just a sperm donor, and one who might not even be able to prove the kid is his - depending on whether there's a spell for it in a D&D rulebook somewhere.
    (I only believe that Durkon is Kudzu's father because of story-logic ... Elan is usually right about such things.)
    And you're basing this on what, exactly? Because I'm sorry to say that OOTS (and fiction in general) only follows human history when it wants to, and there's no indication this would be a situation like that. When Hilgya returned Ivan was too stupid to even realize she was pregnant, and it doesn't seem like she wasted any time bankrupting her clan, of which Ivan's clan didn't even contest the divorce.

    Nothing about the situation suggests that Ivan will be involved in either Hilgya's or Kudzu's life anymore.

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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Lo those many years ago, Rich was willing to write Durkon as Lawful Crazy enough to fixate on "you're married!" and ignore both "to a man you describe as horribly abusive" and "you tried to poison him."

    Him treating Durkon's moral sense as a joke now seems far less likely. "Hilgya is no longer married" will not be what determines his primary response here.
    I dunno, marriage is a Big Deal to a lot of people, especially very Lawful ones, and especially when it comes to adultery. Durkon's obliviousness to Ivan's alleged abusiveness and Hilgya's attempt to poison him may have been played for laughs, but I don't think "modern" Durkon would be fine with deliberately cuckolding someone, either - un-fine with it enough to "fixate" on it, even.

    There are a lot of variables in play here, so I certainly won't attempt to guess which one will determine Durkon's "primary response" to Hilgya now. But if he has even a shred of interest in striking up a relationship with her again - which I don't take as a given - I expect him to behave differently towards her than he would if she were still married.
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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    While I confess I am entirely unsuited for understanding a Lawful mindset, I will maintain nonetheless, whether I know what I am talking about or not, that relatively few people in the real world would rank "you're married" as more alarming than "you tried to kill your husband."

    (More who would rank "you're married" above "your husband is an abusive monster," I recognize, but I am nevertheless confident Rich won't put that viewpoint in the mouth of one of someone who he described as "unimpeachably Lawful Good.")
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    Given that i'm pretty sure Dwarves don't have social services..I'm not sure. Then again, they have pensions. ALso, vis-a-vis the marriage issue, I doubt that's Durkon's biggest issue here, and, even if his main problem was H being married, given how she got out, he'd probably be pretty pissed.

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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    I do need to point out that just because someone said, thought or acted in a certain way - doesn't mean they don't change their minds in this comics.

    You realize that's part of the reason why people like this comics? Characters aren't flat and they manage to develop.

    Remember how much Crystal hated Haley? She was talked into potentially making peace of sorts with her, turning her back on Bozok and then talking to Haley about potentially leaving her alone for a while.

    Why do people think neither Durkon or Hilga can't change is beyond me.

    Quote Originally Posted by drazen View Post
    My guess is that Hilgya may end up making some sort of Heroic Sacrifice in the final boss battle against the Exarch, thus causing the situation to resolve itself.

    Or I guess she could end up siding with the Exarch, because she hates Durkon and the dwarves. The only ways to resurrect Durkon that we know about are either Hilgya doing it, or if the Order was able to get back the Resurrection scroll he was saving and gets someone to cast it (but who? it's divine magic).
    Absolutely no on the second part. Loki is against Hel. Clerics never go against their gods.

    The first part is plausible. It doesn't have to be heroic, she could die by a sneak attack (not mechanically) or something during a future encounter with the Exarch.

    Because unless she is killed here, I don't see any reason why she won't join the order. Loki wants the mortals to stop Xykon. She can't really go against that assuming the order tells her that - and she's powerful enough as a cleric to be extremely useful to the party.


    On the other hand, the odds of Hilga joining them is pretty much 0. There is no way we'll rehash the same tactics as before and there's no reason why Hilga won't use the same tactics because they are so incredibly efficient, like sending the dire giraffes.

    And the Giant has to force V out of so many fights, forcing Hilga as well will get troublesome and boring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandor View Post
    I believe Thor himself is probably capable of casting a rez directly.
    Especially in his own temple, especially with Greg out of the picture. (and thus no longer technically a cleric-vs-cleric contest / anything that might threaten treaties/agreements among the gods.)
    Umm... No. If that was the case, the Dark One would resurrect all the goblins in gobtopia - and Jirix in particular.

    Why do you need such a deus-ex-machina in the first place? We were already told Durkon's ashes are enough and Hilga is obviously high level enough to do it.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    Quote Originally Posted by drazen View Post
    My guess is that Hilgya may end up making some sort of Heroic Sacrifice in the final boss battle against the Exarch, thus causing the situation to resolve itself.

    Or I guess she could end up siding with the Exarch, because she hates Durkon and the dwarves. The only ways to resurrect Durkon that we know about are either Hilgya doing it, or if the Order was able to get back the Resurrection scroll he was saving and gets someone to cast it (but who? it's divine magic).
    There's not gonna be a "final boss battle" against the Exarch. We've already done that, with Greg. The Exarch might still be "alive" and carrying out the plans, but he has neither the power no resources to be a final boss.

    And Hilgya dying doesn't resolve the situation; that just means that the parent Kudzu grows up without is different from the one Durkon did.

    Hilgya doesn't hate the dwarves as a whole, just some of the way their society is built. And she certainly isn't going to turn on her god.

    And "Hilgya or resurrection scroll" aren't the only options. They might be the least troublesome and most likely, but I can envision some other fairly plausible scenarios.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2018-08-25 at 02:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    What I see happening is Durkon talking things over with Hilgya (fighting/friendly I don't know) and then going to save the world before trying to raise Kudzu. Durkon is wise enough to see that the best "Dad move" here is to make sure his kid has a plane to live on. Whether we see the final resolution depends on if the Giant does an epilogue I think.

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    Default Re: Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    There's not gonna be a "final boss battle" against the Exarch. We've already done that, with Greg. The Exarch might still be "alive" and carrying out the plans, but he has neither the power no resources to be a final boss.
    He doesn't have much resources, but neither does the order. They lost a lot of their spell slots in the battles to get here as well as their potion. Some of them might even be drained (depending on Hilga's memorized spell slots).

    He could get another army of lackeys he dominates by now.



    Also, final boss doesn't have to be a physical struggle, it could be a diplomatic one. We still have no idea what his plans for the council are. People assume domination, but we don't know that for a fact.



    I do agree that another battle is less likely, as it could get boring to have a repeating of last time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    Hilgya doesn't hate the dwarves as a whole
    Absolutely, in fact she even tells Elan that if she spreads the word of Loki she helps protect dwarves from Hel. That's part of her goal.

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