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  1. - Top - End - #301
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    I am confused. I have no idea what my gender identity is doing.

    The soul searing wrongness of my body has faded, I can bear being in my own skin again. That only lasted a couple of days. On the other hand, I'm wearing women's clothing around pretty much all the time now, and wearing a bra more often than not. Ye gods, that sentence felt weird to type.

    I'm not asking people to change pronoun use, nor am I trying to change my name. I'm working half-heartedly on my voice, but it's still definitely masculine, and my only concern about that is in the dissonance between visual and aural cues.

    And yet, when I just saw the post in RB about more males having female avatars than vice versa, my reaction was "I hope he's not including me as one of them". So I am thoroughly confused. My mind is a mystery even to me.
    If you're generfluid, we will still care about you.

    If you are trans*, we will still care about you.

    If you are something else entirely, we will still care about you.

    Your body is yours to find the path of, and we are here to support you. ...Well, I am at least, but I imagine most others are as well.

    *Offers hugs*
    LGBTitP

  2. - Top - End - #302
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!


    ...I admit, I squeed a bit. Thanks, Rappy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalirren View Post
    The only person in the past two pages who has known what (s)he has been talking about is Heliomance.
    Quote Originally Posted by golentan View Post
    I just don't want to have long romantic conversations or any sort of drama with my computer, okay? It knows what kind of porn I watch. I don't want to mess that up by allowing it to judge any of my choices in romance.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Arachu View Post

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    If I remember correctly, she was emotionally unstable and having sex with her dad. And they "cured" her by removing the genital streaks.

    What. (Some more.)
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    Yes, this patient!
    ... huh, I didn't remember that last part. Must watch the end again.
    Well, when I first watched it, I didn't think it was bad. Then, when I re-watched it, I thought "so, she's alright with incest, quasi-rape, and using her body to have her way, but not homosexuality? Hah, karma's a [REDACTED], [REDACTED]!"
    (I did not like models or manipulative brats very much. I still don't. I'm not saying that was a very smart judgment.)
    But now, after thinking about it some more and reading your comment, I mostly go "what, that wasn't borderline rape, that WAS rape. And... huh... wait. Was the whole plot designed for that punchline? But... curing her of WHAT exactly... what the... what!?"
    I'm gonna lay down and think about what I was doing wrong. I feel like I've thought terrible things, but I can't narrow down accurately what prejudice was involved.



    EDIT: what Rappy said? I second it.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi View Post
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    Yes, this patient!
    ... huh, I didn't remember that last part. Must watch the end again.
    Well, when I first watched it, I didn't think it was bad. Then, when I re-watched it, I thought "so, she's alright with incest, quasi-rape, and using her body to have her way, but not homosexuality? Hah, karma's a [REDACTED], [REDACTED]!"
    (I did not like models or manipulative brats very much. I still don't. I'm not saying that was a very smart judgment.)
    But now, after thinking about it some more and reading your comment, I mostly go "what, that wasn't borderline rape, that WAS rape. And... huh... wait. Was the whole plot designed for that punchline? But... curing her of WHAT exactly... what the... what!?"
    I'm gonna lay down and think about what I was doing wrong. I feel like I've thought terrible things, but I can't narrow down accurately what prejudice was involved.
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    Don't feel bad! It was kind of subtle, and if I recall she was annoying as hell. :/

    But yeah, I'm pretty sure that her libido, anger and whatnot were explained by the aforementioned genital streaks... Something about a hormone "imbalance". :/

    I only saw the episode once a couple of years back, though. I have pretty good memory, but I may have filled in a gap or two at the time (sorry if I did)...


    EDIT: what Rappy said? I second it.
    I do too, partially because I don't think I can put it that beautifully.
    Thanks for existing.

    Dragon Hunter avatar by Lerky. Magical Girl by the lovely Astrella~

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    *hugs to Heliomance* Just be yourself. Whateve rthat is, it's most important.

    *HUGS ANYONE ELSE WHO NEEDS IT*

    Just in case.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Star Wars canon is one of those things where people have started to realize that the guys in charge are so far off their rockers that it's probably for the best to ignore them.
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    OH GOD THEY'RE COMING! RUN! RUN, TURKISHPROVERB, RUN!

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxios View Post
    GENERIC FLAMING COMMENT, POSSIBLY INVOLVING YOUR MOTHER !

  6. - Top - End - #306
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by KenderWizard View Post
    That sucks. I think Serps might be right; maybe they were trying to let you know that having girl parts wouldn't actually have helped, but they came across too strong?

    Also, Perry Cox is better in every way than House is.

    On single women being able to get pregnantified in Sweden:
    Like H says, that's kind of just nature. People with functioning wombs (PWFW) are able to make babies. Someone else has to be involved, but only at the very start. PWFW have that function (which has its downsides too) built in, and changing the laws about it doesn't really change much. A single PWFW who wants a baby is able to make one, with some cooperation from a person with sperm. Comparing sperm donation to surrogacy is a bit of a leap, really. There's an inherent difference between donating some sperm you weren't going to be doing much with anyway, and donating the use of your body for basically a year, with all the pains and problems, and risks, and then being left to clear up the hormonal emotional problems when your body tells your brain you have a baby and your brain knows you don't. I wish we had a simple and fair system for people who want babies and can't make babies to get babies. And there are situations in which surrogacy is absolutely fine, and a beautiful thing. But it's not simple.
    Yeah, Serpentine is probably right.

    I didn't mean that surrogacy is equal to sperm donation in regard of the various difficulties posed on the respective donor (physically, there's virtually no risk for the sperm donor).

    Over all, it's just silly this whole "you get one right, we lose one right" all over again. Eh, no, you don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
    You know a movement is committed when they start demanding a re-write of the laws of human biology.
    Be careful there. The representatives of the kyriarchy say the same thing about feminists and LGBTA persons and associations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
    According to Natalie, women also get a better class of orgasm. There's no justice in the world.
    Quote Originally Posted by KenderWizard View Post
    Really? I hear women can have multiple orgasms. I didn't know they got "better" orgasms. Could it be possible that Natalie's woman-orgasms are better than her man-orgasms because she's a woman?
    Quote Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
    I'm suspecting that has a lot to do with it, although oxytocin is known to be involved in the orgasm response, and estrogen can potentiate the effects of oxytocin. So it's not implausible by any means.
    I've wondered that, whether a trans woman get her orgasms changed after SRS, if she gets able to get multiple orgasms.

    Also, do trans women keep the prostate? Considering that it's vital to the "male" orgasm, never mind *how* it's achieved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    Relevant.

    I've actually been wondering what LGBT people think of that particular sketch...
    Personally, I get mixed feelings about it. When I was younger, I thought it was very funny, but now, I feel mixed about it. I don't *think* the sketch was mean-spirited or anything, but I feel sad for Loretta.

    I have similar, contradicting feelings about Lieutenant Hubert Gruber from 'Allo 'Allo!, BBC's parody of its own Secret Army.

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    Given he's gay or bi, and an officer of the Wehrmacht Heer, he can be seen as the unfortunate "gay Nazi" stereotype (though he never utters racist or fascist statements). But I can't help liking the character!

    So I've made my own personal chronology in which he's secretly an Abwehr agent or member of the Schwarze Kapelle, working to destroy the Nazis.


    Quote Originally Posted by Astrella View Post
    I've just been feeling really bad since the weekend. I'm a bit betterish right now, but still.... Ugghhh, I thought finally going to my therapist again would cheer me up again, and it did for the rest of the day, but now I'm feeling more blegh than I have in at least a month. I think visiting my godchild and niece made it worse, hearing them adress me with boy name and such just hurts even more, and it's not like they can help it or even know but it still stings so hard. :(
    *hugs*
    Viking/Paladin by Astrella

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Keveak View Post
    *Glomps Astrella*

    I am sure you will be feeling much better later, especially if seeing a therapist cheers you up! Seeing a psychiatrist (Who only diagnosed Asberger's, completely missing my lack of sanity X3) made me feel happier even if I found it a nuissance!

    I don't know if you can do much about children calling you by the wrong name, but you could try doing what you can to help them learn about gender and identity. Would that be a positive? I am quite poor at cheering people up. ^_^'
    Well, I felt really bad again a bit earlier. :s *hugs*

    Maybe teaching them would help, but it's not easy when other people are around without it seeming odd. (I'm not out to anyone except for my therapist.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    I am confused. I have no idea what my gender identity is doing.

    The soul searing wrongness of my body has faded, I can bear being in my own skin again. That only lasted a couple of days. On the other hand, I'm wearing women's clothing around pretty much all the time now, and wearing a bra more often than not. Ye gods, that sentence felt weird to type.

    I'm not asking people to change pronoun use, nor am I trying to change my name. I'm working half-heartedly on my voice, but it's still definitely masculine, and my only concern about that is in the dissonance between visual and aural cues.

    And yet, when I just saw the post in RB about more males having female avatars than vice versa, my reaction was "I hope he's not including me as one of them". So I am thoroughly confused. My mind is a mystery even to me.
    *hugs*

    Take it easy and take your time to figure stuff out. I know it took me ages before I came to terms with it and started understanding it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    You are going through the exact same thing I've been feeling for weeks now. It's in check when I'm around her, but it's erratic otherwise.

    My end thoughts are, I know I will regret making such a drastic change, as I can't handle social situations already. What are my parents to think? What are my friends, and my teachers, and my peers going to think?

    What will I think of myself?

    I just can't handle that anxiety yet, so I've chosen to, in a simple way of putting it, 'stick with what I've got'.
    *hugs* (and what I said to Helio)

    Quote Originally Posted by H Birchgrove View Post
    I've wondered that, whether a trans woman get her orgasms changed after SRS, if she gets able to get multiple orgasms.
    Hmm, I don't think so? It's HRT that causes the big changes. Though out of personal experience mental headspace has a lot to do with it as well.

    and this is me being petty, but I was a bit hurt at how little attention my last few posts got comparatively... :<
    Last edited by Astrella; 2012-02-29 at 10:55 PM.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    How on Earth to I tell someone that I like them?

    I feel embarrassed, and I feel like I may embarrass someone else, and I feel like I may just botch the whole thing. Maybe she doesn't think I'm attractive, maybe she doesn't like guys, maybe she doesn't like me.
    Steam username is Triscuitable.
    I got VAC banned in COD: Ghosts for using an FOV changer.
    I try not to think of how sad that is.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    How on Earth to I tell someone that I like them?

    I feel embarrassed, and I feel like I may embarrass someone else, and I feel like I may just botch the whole thing. Maybe she doesn't think I'm attractive, maybe she doesn't like guys, maybe she doesn't like me.
    ...yeah, what Tris said. :s

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    ^All of that, plus not looking like a 90's-era Hollywood cop. :/

    Quote Originally Posted by Nix Nihila View Post
    I would be uncomfortable if an extradimensional person was in the stall next to me. After all, they could see me from all sides at once despite the privacy of a stall, and if they wanted, they could extract my organs without puncturing my skin!
    Yeah, but they could do that even if you weren't in a stall.

    ... And there's no guarantee that you could see enough of them to know if they were around at all...


    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Off topic, an update on my situation (recap: met boyfriend "J", neither set of parents know about us being gay, J was unexpectedly outed to brother "R" on Valentine's Day, R threatened to tell parents, hasn't returned J's calls since):
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    J got a hold of R yesterday evening after two weeks of the silent treatment and was finally able to have a calm, rational conversation about it. Fortunately, R hadn't said anything to the parents yet; he had just kinda freaked out to find out that his frat-boy, womanizing, sports-loving brother had turned out to be gay, defying all the stereotypes ("The gays! They're everywhere!"), and after hanging up he felt bad enough about the reaction that he decided not to tell the parents immediately. Apparently, over the past two weeks R had gone to a few parties at his own fraternity where his friends had made a bunch of homophobic remarks as usual, and when his first internal reaction this time wasn't "Yeah, ha ha, gay jokes are funny!" but rather "Hey, that's my brother you're insulting!" he had a major wake-up call.

    R still doesn't want to talk to J about it since he still finds it really awkward, and he's made J promise not to tell any of their mutual friends about "the gay thing" so it doesn't reflect badly on R , and he still made a few homophobic remarks during the conversation (no one insults R's brother but him, apparently), but...on the whole it seems like things turned out okay-ish. Two steps forward, 1.5 steps back, I guess?
    *Hugs* Well, at least he's gotten better about it. That's a good sign.

    Quote Originally Posted by H Birchgrove View Post
    I've wondered that, whether a trans woman get her orgasms changed after SRS, if she gets able to get multiple orgasms.

    Also, do trans women keep the prostate? Considering that it's vital to the "male" orgasm, never mind *how* it's achieved.
    Not sure... It doesn't seem like that should be necessary... *contemplates bangs*

    I've actually heard of male multiple orgasms, but technically I can't be certain whether those were close enough together to count... It doesn't seem like transitioning should make it (more?) possible, but the mind's a hell of a thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Astrella View Post
    Well, I felt really bad again a bit earlier. :s *hugs*

    Maybe teaching them would help, but it's not easy when other people are around without it seeming odd. (I'm not out to anyone except for my therapist.)



    *hugs*

    Take it easy and take your time to figure stuff out. I know it took me ages before I came to terms with it and started understanding it.



    *hugs* (and what I said to Helio)



    Hmm, I don't think so? It's HRT that causes the big changes. Though out of personal experience mental headspace has a lot to do with it as well.

    and this is me being petty, but I was a bit hurt at how little attention my last few posts got comparatively... :<
    *Hugs* I try to make longer responses, but I got all worked up at the spoiler... :/
    Thanks for existing.

    Dragon Hunter avatar by Lerky. Magical Girl by the lovely Astrella~

  11. - Top - End - #311
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by KenderWizard View Post
    Please don't call what I say dumb, when I'm responding to a prevailing opinion. I have literally never heard the argument "We should have gender-segregated restrooms because some people are inherently and drastically uncomfortable with eliminating waste around members of the opposite gender, but absolutely fine around members of the same gender." before. It has always, always, always been "Because that's how it is." or "To protect women from men."

    I am wildly uncomfortable with eliminating waste around anyone at all (I'm one of those people who can't talk on the toilet), but that's why we have cubicles, rather than just a room full of toilets. And I would be equally uncomfortable, if someone walked into my cubicle, if they were a man or a woman.

    But you and me aside, why can't the solution be unisex bathrooms, with some single ones, for people who are very uncomfortable with communal bathrooms for any reason at all?
    I've expressed myself poorly indeed. I do not mean to call what you say dumb: I mean, if perceived danger of rape were the only argument against public unisex bathrooms, that would be dumb. I apologize if I offended you.

    To your final question: why can't that be the solution? I answer, why fix something that isn't broken? Or more precisely why break something that works fine? Accommodating the discomfort and indeed discrimination of transgendered people in the current washroom setup is about adding an exception to the existing system, not undoing the existing system for everybody else. If some single ones can be added to the existing segregated communal bathrooms, then we're in great shape.

    To others:
    Part of it, as pffh mentioned, is the excellent convenience of urinals which only really work in an all-male situation -- which by the way, conserve water compared to flush toilets.

    The other part? I'm spoilering because there's just no way to politely phrase it.
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    - it is also the part I am having difficulty finding the words to describe. Eliminating waste is awkward, yes indeed. It is a bodily experience to the extreme, even genital; and even half-hidden in a stall the sounds and smells it produces are all body body body and evoke the genital region. Men understand one another's bodies. Women, one another's. There's a kind of sympathy I can feel laying a bomb around men because of the shared bodily experience we have, that I just could not around women. The bathroom, even beyond its functions for waste elimination, is a space of bodyness. This is what I tried to express in my reply to Nix Nihilicious. The shared bodily experience among the sexes is a fundamental subconscious bond.

    I do not for a minute believe posters saying that they would be equally uncomfortable taking a crap in a stall next to the opposite sex as they would the same. I really don't.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post

    ...I admit, I squeed a bit. Thanks, Rappy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi View Post
    EDIT: what Rappy said? I second it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arachu View Post
    I do too, partially because I don't think I can put it that beautifully.
    Aww, shucks. I didn't think I said anything special, just what I honestly felt. After putting myself down enough, I've learned through kindness of others that the better thing to do instead of to lift others up when they need it.
    Last edited by Rappy; 2012-03-01 at 12:04 AM.
    LGBTitP

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    How on Earth to I tell someone that I like them?

    I feel embarrassed, and I feel like I may embarrass someone else, and I feel like I may just botch the whole thing. Maybe she doesn't think I'm attractive, maybe she doesn't like guys, maybe she doesn't like me.
    Better to know and have them never be around you again than to have it fester.

    As far as how you tell them you like them, well, that partially depends on how well you know them and upon your current intentions with regards to them and interest in them.

    You don't tell someone that you feel could/is becoming the best BFF ever this news in the same way that you tell someone that you're interested in finding out if a romantic relationship would work out between the two of you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Better to know and have them never be around you again than to have it fester.
    Last time I asked a girl out, she rejected me, turned against me, blocked all communication with me, and all of her friends started treating me like some sort of monster.

    It's not always better.
    Last edited by Skeppio; 2012-03-01 at 03:15 AM.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeppio View Post
    Last time I asked a girl out, she rejected me, turned against me, blocked all communication with me, and all of her friends started treating me like some sort of monster.

    It's not always better.
    Eh, an argument could be made that having the local population of women who are at least slightly unhinged identify itself and thus eliminate the headache of potentially sleeping with one of them or, worse, getting emotionally attached to another such individual before realizing that being around them for extended periods of time would basically constitute emotional and spiritual abuse.

    And if you let people potentially being [redacted] insane stop you from doing something, you're going to be paralyzed in this life.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2012-03-01 at 03:56 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Eh, an argument could be made that having the local population of women who are at least slightly unhinged identify itself and thus eliminate the headache of potentially sleeping with one of them or, worse, getting emotionally attached to another such individual before realizing that being around them for extended periods of time would basically constitute emotional and spiritual abuse.
    I.....didn't understand a word of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    And if you let people potentially being [redacted] insane stop you from doing something, you're going to be paralyzed in this life.
    Meh, just sayin'. And it's more likely an outcome than you'd think.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    How on Earth to I tell someone that I like them?

    I feel embarrassed, and I feel like I may embarrass someone else, and I feel like I may just botch the whole thing. Maybe she doesn't think I'm attractive, maybe she doesn't like guys, maybe she doesn't like me.
    Now, a dilemma I know!
    What I can tell you is that you should just try. It is going to be worse to let go the person you love without telling them, wonder if you ever had a chance, and do the exact same mistake about the next people you like because you have the same fears.
    How do you tell someone, now?
    ... ahahahahah. *embarrassed laughter*
    In my case, my boyfriend asked me before I gathered the courage to do so. What he did was dropping a few hints over the course of the week before the day we'd planned to see each other IRL*, then asked me about that girl he liked he was going to see at the end of the week and how/when he should tell her**, and then, the day after, disregarded my advice, and texted me a message along the lines of "so I hope you understood what I was actually talking about yesterday, you can tell me you don't feel the same way, it's okay, I'm gonna be fine***". I replied that yes, I did feel the same way and just did not know how to ask him. He finally replied to insult me because I made him cry in public in his train****.
    Don't know if that helps, but that's how things went with me.

    *I was oblivious and thought I was imagining hints because I was desperate. I was also stupid.
    ** I was mega-oblivious and thought there was the possibility he wasn't talking about me, so I simply replied as honestly and helpfully as possible and told him to wait until he saw her to tell her. Did I say I was stupid?
    *** No, he wasn't going to be fine at all.
    **** Insulting each other is a much more affectionate activity between us than you might think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeppio View Post
    Last time I asked a girl out, she rejected me, turned against me, blocked all communication with me, and all of her friends started treating me like some sort of monster.

    It's not always better.
    Everyone here agrees she and her friends are [REDACTED], so I'm not going to linger on the part where I despise them.
    I'm truly sorry about that. I hope that the affection you had for her vanished quickly. *hugs*
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeppio View Post
    I.....didn't understand a word of that.
    Those [Redacted] be crazy. You don't want to get attached to that anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeppio View Post
    Meh, just sayin'. And it's more likely an outcome than you'd think.
    And rather than coming off as tempering my perspective with caution, you come off to me, especially given the mutually exclusive contrast I see in your two sentences here, as advocating living in fear or allowing one's self to live in fear.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi View Post
    Everyone here agrees she and her friends are [REDACTED], so I'm not going to linger on the part where I despise them.
    I'm truly sorry about that. I hope that the affection you had for her vanished quickly. *hugs*
    "Everyone here agrees"? This is the first time I've brought it up here.
    *hugs anyway*

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Those [Redacted] be crazy. You don't want to get attached to that anyway.
    I kinda did, since before then she was the first person I'd met who I could actually be a decent match for. Pity how that turned out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    And rather than coming off as tempering my perspective with caution, you come off to me, especially given the mutually exclusive contrast I see in your two sentences here, as advocating living in fear or allowing one's self to live in fear.
    If you simply must take it that way, I guess I can't do much to stop you. *shrug*

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Single-sex restrooms have their uses in some settings; obviously in a more public setting like a mall or movie theater or the like unisex bathrooms would probably work out fine, but making them the rule rather than the exception could cause problems. In the dorms at my university, for instance, each floor has one restroom for males and one for females, each with four showers and six stalls (in the men's room, at least; I'd assume the women's room would have more stalls in place of urinals). As someone mentioned earlier, the lines for men's rooms tend to be much shorter than women's rooms--in this case both for the stalls and the showers, even though there are many more males than females in most dorms--so from a purely selfish perspective the guys on the floor likely wouldn't want to share with the girls. Also, this being a college setting, I doubt people would be mature enough to handle that much mixing of the sexes; many of the guys in my dorm freshman year were still in the "see girl, stare at chest, make lewd comments, find new girl, repeat" stage of male/female relations, so I don't see a unisex bathroom turning out well at all there.

    Finally, and most importantly: To save time in the morning before classes, most of the guys in my dorm would just roll out of bed in their boxers and stand around in the bathroom slowly waking up while they waited for a shower stall to become available. They wouldn't do this if there were any girls in the bathroom. You wouldn't be so mean as to deny me and other gay guys the lovely view, would you?

    -------------------------------

    Off topic, an update on my situation (recap: met boyfriend "J", neither set of parents know about us being gay, J was unexpectedly outed to brother "R" on Valentine's Day, R threatened to tell parents, hasn't returned J's calls since):
    Spoiler
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    J got a hold of R yesterday evening after two weeks of the silent treatment and was finally able to have a calm, rational conversation about it. Fortunately, R hadn't said anything to the parents yet; he had just kinda freaked out to find out that his frat-boy, womanizing, sports-loving brother had turned out to be gay, defying all the stereotypes ("The gays! They're everywhere!"), and after hanging up he felt bad enough about the reaction that he decided not to tell the parents immediately. Apparently, over the past two weeks R had gone to a few parties at his own fraternity where his friends had made a bunch of homophobic remarks as usual, and when his first internal reaction this time wasn't "Yeah, ha ha, gay jokes are funny!" but rather "Hey, that's my brother you're insulting!" he had a major wake-up call.

    R still doesn't want to talk to J about it since he still finds it really awkward, and he's made J promise not to tell any of their mutual friends about "the gay thing" so it doesn't reflect badly on R , and he still made a few homophobic remarks during the conversation (no one insults R's brother but him, apparently), but...on the whole it seems like things turned out okay-ish. Two steps forward, 1.5 steps back, I guess?
    I hope the R and J situation continues to resolve itself.

    Here, shower rooms, where they exist, are generally separate from rooms with toilets in. I am generally of the opinion that no one should ever have to shower in front of anyone else like seriously that's not okay. (I say "have to". It's obviously cool if you want to.)

    Quote Originally Posted by pffh View Post
    I'm against unisex bathrooms purely because they would lack urinals and you can fit more urinals then stalls in the same area meaning more people can do their buisness at the same time and thus lines move faster. It's selfish but meh I like my bathrooms having short lines.

    In other news I may or may not have discovered a new alkaloid by accident. I'll hopefully know in around 2-3 years.
    You could have a urinal area in big bathrooms. Like around a corner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astrella View Post
    and this is me being petty, but I was a bit hurt at how little attention my last few posts got comparatively... :<

    I always have a moment panic if no one replies to me, in case I've done something wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kneenibble View Post
    I've expressed myself poorly indeed. I do not mean to call what you say dumb: I mean, if perceived danger of rape were the only argument against public unisex bathrooms, that would be dumb. I apologize if I offended you.

    To your final question: why can't that be the solution? I answer, why fix something that isn't broken? Or more precisely why break something that works fine? Accommodating the discomfort and indeed discrimination of transgendered people in the current washroom setup is about adding an exception to the existing system, not undoing the existing system for everybody else. If some single ones can be added to the existing segregated communal bathrooms, then we're in great shape.

    To others:
    Part of it, as pffh mentioned, is the excellent convenience of urinals which only really work in an all-male situation -- which by the way, conserve water compared to flush toilets.

    The other part? I'm spoilering because there's just no way to politely phrase it.
    Spoiler
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    - it is also the part I am having difficulty finding the words to describe. Eliminating waste is awkward, yes indeed. It is a bodily experience to the extreme, even genital; and even half-hidden in a stall the sounds and smells it produces are all body body body and evoke the genital region. Men understand one another's bodies. Women, one another's. There's a kind of sympathy I can feel laying a bomb around men because of the shared bodily experience we have, that I just could not around women. The bathroom, even beyond its functions for waste elimination, is a space of bodyness. This is what I tried to express in my reply to Nix Nihilicious. The shared bodily experience among the sexes is a fundamental subconscious bond.

    I do not for a minute believe posters saying that they would be equally uncomfortable taking a crap in a stall next to the opposite sex as they would the same. I really don't.
    Okie dokie, I'm glad you don't think I'm dumb!

    I don't think there's a special bond between female-bodied people. Everyone's different. I barely understand my own body.

    Anyway, I don't think making this change would be breaking something that works. I think the current system is fairly broken. For places that have the space, sure, a female bathroom, a male bathroom and some unisex bathrooms works. But I believe the default should be unisex, not just for trans and genderfluid people (although I feel that the current catch-22 is a huge injustice to them), but also for ease of parenting (if you as a man are out with your little daughter, who is old enough to walk and comment but not quite old enough for you to feel happy sending her to the bathroom by herself, what do you do? You are getting judged like anything either way.) and caring (same goes double for if the person you're looking after is physically an adult), and hell, for those times when one member of the party is one gender, and goes into the bathroom and vanishes, and the rest of the party has to play that weird game of hanging around outside asking people going in to try check on them. And just because trans people, parents out by themselves with an other-gender child, people with other-gender carers and people who collapse in the bathroom are the minority doesn't mean we can push straight over them. So sure, in big rich places, let's have all three. But I want a society that prioritises the needs of those that are starting from a disadvantage.

    Now seriously, back to that Andes essay! (Oh gosh I'm so behind...!)

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeppio View Post
    "Everyone here agrees"? This is the first time I've brought it up here.
    *hugs anyway*
    Sorry, I made the assumption everyone here would agree as soon as they read the situation, and possibly comment on it.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi View Post
    Sorry, I made the assumption everyone here would agree as soon as they read the situation, and possibly comment on it.
    Oh. Doubtful. I mean, I don't even agree. For her to react like that when I asked her out, there had to be a reason. And I'm comfortably certain it's not "because she's a [Redacted]". :/

    ...I just wish I had a chance. But I'm reasonably sure the same thing will just happen like it did last time.

    I should probably take this to the RWA thread, shouldn't I?
    Last edited by Skeppio; 2012-03-01 at 06:26 AM.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by KenderWizard View Post
    You could have a urinal area in big bathrooms. Like around a corner.
    How big are the bathrooms where you live that they can have corners? Around here the average mens bathroom has 1-2 stalls +3-4 urinals and the womens has 3-4 stalls.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Astrella View Post
    and this is me being petty, but I was a bit hurt at how little attention my last few posts got comparatively... :<
    *hugs Astrella*

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    How on Earth to I tell someone that I like them?
    You've already gotten some advice here, but you could try the RWA thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kneenibble View Post
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    I do not for a minute believe posters saying that they would be equally uncomfortable taking a crap in a stall next to the opposite sex as they would the same. I really don't.
    It's generally a good idea to take people's words on face value in cases such as this. If nothing else out of politeness

    I think Kender makes some excellent points. I wish I could add something intelligent, but I'm just gonna follow noparlpf's example here
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    PairO'Dice Lost: Honestly, I'd find it awkward if I found out that a pair of brothers who were both straight were able to discuss women and relationships with them without some level of awkwardness. And beyond discussing his relationship with you, what is there really to discuss between brothers about being gay?

    Viz: Unisex bathrooms: The people who already have nervous bladders generally get worse around the opposite sex from everything I've heard on the subject, although, admittedly, it's not a commonly discussed subject. And most of the discussion pertains to couples in heteronormative relationships.

    One thing that strikes me though is that urinals seem like enough of a sticking point that one sex would be getting disadvantaged, as just combining the number of stalls and urinals would have the same net effect and bathrooms are clustered together anyway, so there'd be only marginal savings on plumbing, and having relatively more toilets to avoid disadvantaging women would necessitate something like trough style urinals to compensate which are just demeaning.

    Skeppio:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skeppio View Post
    Oh. Doubtful. I mean, I don't even agree. For her to react like that when I asked her out, there had to be a reason. And I'm comfortably certain it's not "because she's a [Redacted]". :/

    ...I just wish I had a chance. But I'm reasonably sure the same thing will just happen like it did last time.

    I should probably take this to the RWA thread, shouldn't I?
    Probably. Though if you're that it's not because she's crazy and all of her friends are crazy, then you must then believe you actively did something wrong. Also, you're possibly putting too much emphasis on the [redacted], as that was just my simplifying the expression into the most vulgar form of the vernacular that I could think of in order to have a more dramatic effect while restating the idea with flair. Although I must admit, in retrospect, it could be both that and crazy in more or less equal measure, but malice isn't always necessary when stupidity or crazy or ignorance will suffice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeppio View Post
    I kinda did, since before then she was the first person I'd met who I could actually be a decent match for. Pity how that turned out.
    Obviously not much of a match if that's how it turned out though. I imagine you're of a much higher moral caliber than someone who would actively slander someone else to the point of encouraging her entire circle of friends to go out of their way to harass someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeppio View Post
    If you simply must take it that way, I guess I can't do much to stop you. *shrug*
    *shrug* I offered you an out. Admittedly, not an especially large and well-paved one because I'm a bit tired and am still confused as to your possible motives and angle here, even after we've delved this far into this series of events. Since it seems you'd be more likely to stress caution as to how you build up to the event and how you say what you've got to get off your chest if you believed that you said or did something wrong and brought down a pile of crazy on your head as a result. Rather than cautioning against making a reveal at all and implicitly advising that it's better to fester than risk alienation.

    The risk of alienation bears consideration to be sure, especially with regards to romantic aspirations that are most pertinent to this thread, but that would suggest that you'd open with a tactic stressing the importance o ensuring safety and receptivity before even letting one's body language hint anything, or even advice on how to go about gauging such a thing.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2012-03-01 at 07:05 AM.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
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    Probably. Though if you're that it's not because she's crazy and all of her friends are crazy, then you must then believe you actively did something wrong.


    I must've done something horrible, though I remember it all clearly but can't find anything I did that would be said horrible thing. Pity is, I have no idea what it was, and everyone involved or even semi-involved refused to tell me.

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    Obviously not much of a match if that's how it turned out though. I imagine you're of a much higher moral caliber than someone who would actively slander someone else to the point of encouraging her entire circle of friends to go out of their way to harass someone.


    You'd think so, but no. And she wouldn't do it without a reason, so I'm not seeing why that makes me of all people higher in moral fiber.

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    Rather than cautioning against making a reveal at all and implicitly advising that it's better to fester than risk alienation.


    It certainly would have made things go a lot less poorly than they did. Avoiding unnecessary risk and heartache isn't as bad as you seem to think.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    How on Earth to I tell someone that I like them?

    I feel embarrassed, and I feel like I may embarrass someone else, and I feel like I may just botch the whole thing. Maybe she doesn't think I'm attractive, maybe she doesn't like guys, maybe she doesn't like me.
    You get used to rejections over time. There are basically three ways people have responded to my advances:

    1. Tell me they already have a boyfriend
    2. Tell me I'm a great friend and all that... (technical term: friend-zoning)
    3. Laugh in my face and tell me I'm to ****ing ugly

    Although that third response has only happened once. Amazing that it still stings after so many years... Now, when you've been rejected the traditional way to deal with it is by locking yourself into a room and listen to sad music. I can give recommendations if you want.

    Heliomance, what Rappe said. Birchgrove, they keep the prostate. There are so many nerves down there that it's just not worth the risk. Must be a cause for some cognitive dissonance if a trans woman gets prostate cancer. Link: http://positivelyaware.com/2008/08_04/safer_sex.html

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Arachu View Post
    *Hugs* I try to make longer responses, but I got all worked up at the spoiler... :/
    's okay. You've been a real dear.

    Quote Originally Posted by KenderWizard View Post

    I always have a moment panic if no one replies to me, in case I've done something wrong.
    I have that a lot; bit I feel ignored quite a bit often.

    Well, it's more that I was feeling really down and could've used some hugs and sympathy but it sorta seemed everyone but Arachu and noparlf ignored me. :<

    Quote Originally Posted by Kneenibble View Post
    I've expressed myself poorly indeed. I do not mean to call what you say dumb: I mean, if perceived danger of rape were the only argument against public unisex bathrooms, that would be dumb. I apologize if I offended you.

    To your final question: why can't that be the solution? I answer, why fix something that isn't broken? Or more precisely why break something that works fine? Accommodating the discomfort and indeed discrimination of transgendered people in the current washroom setup is about adding an exception to the existing system, not undoing the existing system for everybody else. If some single ones can be added to the existing segregated communal bathrooms, then we're in great shape.
    It still sends a very strong message of othering I think; it's still saying; everyone who doesn't fit into the system we have, you folks should go somewhere else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glass Mouse View Post
    *hugs Astrella*
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Sorry, Astrella. Nowadays, I just tend to browse the last page, and my brain only really registers a few things or subjects I can reply to. I'm not ignoring you intentionally.
    *belated hugs*
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kneenibble View Post
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    - it is also the part I am having difficulty finding the words to describe. Eliminating waste is awkward, yes indeed. It is a bodily experience to the extreme, even genital; and even half-hidden in a stall the sounds and smells it produces are all body body body and evoke the genital region. Men understand one another's bodies. Women, one another's. There's a kind of sympathy I can feel laying a bomb around men because of the shared bodily experience we have, that I just could not around women. The bathroom, even beyond its functions for waste elimination, is a space of bodyness. This is what I tried to express in my reply to Nix Nihilicious. The shared bodily experience among the sexes is a fundamental subconscious bond.

    I do not for a minute believe posters saying that they would be equally uncomfortable taking a crap in a stall next to the opposite sex as they would the same. I really don't.
    DISCLAIMER: THE FOLLOWING IS ALL BASED ON PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, SOME CONVERSATIONS WITH OTHERS AND SPECULATIONS. ALL GENERALISATIONS ARE ACKNOWLEDGED AS ALMOST CERTAINLY NOT HOLDING TRUE FOR ALL.

    Honestly, if there's any change in this regard I think it'll probably be on the side of men. Because women are already terrified of pooping within earshot of others. Oh, the agony of the stalemate, where each person in adjacent cubicles is holding it in waiting for the other to finish and leave so that they might let 'er rip in private! I don't think the sex of the other people in there will make a difference, women can't poop any quieter regardless, no matter how they try. Hell, if anything, having men in there being even noisier* might actually help women to let go of this neurosis so many of us have about our bodily functions.


    *I may well be falling into a stereotype trap there, though...

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