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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    I've returned from my time off to put two-and-two together. (FOUR!)

    It took from last week to today for me to realize I'm in love. Yeah, that's what was eating at me. I've found I really like someone.

    But there's another thing: I'm still completely in the dark about my own gender. I have no issues deeming myself male or female, but it's something that's constantly tugging me back and forth, back and forth. It's hard to go from bouncing my hips while I walk (which I still do, it's fun!), to acting like a supreme gentleman. It's a funny world, isn't it?
    *Exaggerated slap on the back*

    I'm sure that gender will come to you eventually, in whatever form(s) it will.


    I've read about schools that had unisex bathrooms. The idea was abandoned when sexual harassment, and even rape complaints came through. It's a shame that we've come so far as to not even respect the sanctity of the bathroom.
    I was afraid of that.

    Any further comment on my part wouldn't be quite articulate today. (On that note, has anyone else ever felt... Depressed and not depressed at the same time? I dunno, I've just been unusually grouchy and it's bothering me. :/)
    Thanks for existing.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    (For some reason, my last post seems to be showing in the "quotes" log but not on the page...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    I've returned from my time off to put two-and-two together. (FOUR!)

    It took from last week to today for me to realize I'm in love. Yeah, that's what was eating at me. I've found I really like someone.

    But there's another thing: I'm still completely in the dark about my own gender. I have no issues deeming myself male or female, but it's something that's constantly tugging me back and forth, back and forth. It's hard to go from bouncing my hips while I walk (which I still do, it's fun!), to acting like a supreme gentleman. It's a funny world, isn't it?
    *Exaggerated slap on the back*

    I'm sure that gender will come to you eventually, in whatever form(s) it will.


    I've read about schools that had unisex bathrooms. The idea was abandoned when sexual harassment, and even rape complaints came through. It's a shame that we've come so far as to not even respect the sanctity of the bathroom.
    I was afraid of that.

    Any further comment on my part wouldn't be quite articulate today. (On that note, has anyone else ever felt... Depressed and not depressed at the same time? I dunno, I've just been unusually grouchy and it's bothering me. :/)
    Thanks for existing.

    Dragon Hunter avatar by Lerky. Magical Girl by the lovely Astrella~

  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by KenderWizard View Post
    Ugh, don't get me started! Yes, as far as I can tell, it is exactly that the delicate wimmins need to be protected from the lustful beastly mens who won't be able to help themselves but to violate women's privacy and probably bodily integrity if they're, like, taking their pants down near women who are possibly not-quite-"decently clothed".

    I cannot say this strongly enough: a triangle with a circle on top and some lines coming out, forming a stereotype of a deviation from the "norm" of male*, DOES NOT, CANNOT, and WILL NOT stop a sexual predator. Because it's not even as strong as a law, and violating someone's body is against actual laws. Rapists who are not scared of laws are certainly not scared of going into the sacred womanly space.

    Okay, so, you got me started! Point is, separate bathrooms are silly. Boys don't actually have cooties. Cubicles are standard. Women are capable of spying on other women. I think we should collectively get over it.
    No, Kender. You get carried away when you essay-rant. It has nothing to do with something as ridiculous as perceived danger of rape. That's dumb.

    Gender-segregated bathrooms are a comfortable & safe space for most people. I don't mean safe, like safe from physical harm: I mean in the sense of mental safety. I don't feel comfortable doing bathroom activities around women. Everybody I am ticking off in my head right now that I know in real life would feel as uncomfortable as me if the opposite gender could come in to their public bathroom safe space.

    It's a serious, deeply ingrained, and quite frankly, natural gender sex affinity. You can't just write it off like that.

    My place of work -- which happens to be a very progressive University -- has gender-segregated bathrooms, plus single-stall unisex bathrooms for the very small minority who are uncomfortable with the former. I think that's a great solution.
    Last edited by Kneenibble; 2012-02-29 at 01:26 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    But there's another thing: I'm still completely in the dark about my own gender. I have no issues deeming myself male or female, but it's something that's constantly tugging me back and forth, back and forth. It's hard to go from bouncing my hips while I walk (which I still do, it's fun!), to acting like a supreme gentleman. It's a funny world, isn't it?
    Is it important?
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  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    I've returned from my time off to put two-and-two together. (FOUR!)

    It took from last week to today for me to realize I'm in love. Yeah, that's what was eating at me. I've found I really like someone.

    But there's another thing: I'm still completely in the dark about my own gender. I have no issues deeming myself male or female, but it's something that's constantly tugging me back and forth, back and forth. It's hard to go from bouncing my hips while I walk (which I still do, it's fun!), to acting like a supreme gentleman. It's a funny world, isn't it?
    LOVE! Triscuitable and... someone, sitting in a tree. Hold onto that feeling, so that one day when it is inevitably ripped bodily from you it will leave you feeling as though an unlicensed dentist has just performed surgery on your gut.

    More seriously, good luck.
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    My motto: Repensum Est Canicula.

    Quote Originally Posted by turkishproverb View Post
    I am not getting into a shootout with Golentan. Too many gun-arms.
    Leiningen will win, even if he must lose in the attempt.

    Credit to Astrella for the new party avatar.

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Aaand to disrupt the srs tone of my last post... I had to share this slice of absurdity from an online dating profile I just read. Listed as male but with a very female appearance in the photos.

    I am not a tranny so dont think otherwise... I am a bottom... ;P
    I have to laugh. ...so I don't cry.
    Last edited by Kneenibble; 2012-02-29 at 01:51 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #247
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    I am in love with George Takei.

    He posted a great LGBT blurb related to dieting today on his facebook. You should read it.
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    My motto: Repensum Est Canicula.

    Quote Originally Posted by turkishproverb View Post
    I am not getting into a shootout with Golentan. Too many gun-arms.
    Leiningen will win, even if he must lose in the attempt.

    Credit to Astrella for the new party avatar.

  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kneenibble View Post
    No, Kender. You get carried away when you essay-rant. It has nothing to do with something as ridiculous as perceived danger of rape. That's dumb.
    Yes, it is dumb. But it is one of the most common arguments I see against unisex bathrooms (and also against allowing trans people into their preferred bathrooms), so I don't think it's unfair to bring up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kneenibble View Post
    Gender-segregated bathrooms are a comfortable & safe space for most people. I don't mean safe, like safe from physical harm: I mean in the sense of mental safety. I don't feel comfortable doing bathroom activities around women. Everybody I am ticking off in my head right now that I know in real life would feel as uncomfortable as me if the opposite gender could come in to their public bathroom safe space.

    It's a serious, deeply ingrained, and quite frankly, natural gender sex affinity. You can't just write it off like that.
    I respect that you would be uncomfortable, and I certainly don't want to force people who are uncomfortable with unisex bathrooms to have to do their business in them, but I'm rather skeptical of your claim that it is a natural affinity. Do you have any studies to back that up? Have studies even been conducted on that sort of thing?
    Last edited by Nix Nihila; 2012-02-29 at 02:03 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    I go in, do my business, wash my hands and leave. There could be an elephant in a pink tutu in the corner and I wouldn't care.

    That's probably not literally true, but it sounds good.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    I don't think I'd be any more uncomfortable with having a different gendered person in the same bathroom with me as I would with a same gendered person. That is to say, both of those things make me moderately uncomfortable. =P

    Something to do with not wanting people to catch me in a vulnerable position, I suppose.
    Cobra Avatar by the lovely Miss Nobody.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nix Nihila View Post
    I respect that you would be uncomfortable, and I certainly don't want to force people who are uncomfortable with unisex bathrooms to have to do their business in them, but I'm rather skeptical of your claim that it is a natural affinity. Do you have any studies to back that up? Have studies even been conducted on that sort of thing?
    I cannot imagine how one could study that kind of thing, so no: but the historical depth of the precedent is difficult to deny.

    Bathroom activities are body activities -- specifically, genital-area activities; and activities around which we strange upright mammals already feel a degree of discomfort. Privacy is best; but when it is not available, as in public space washrooms: for the vast majority of people in whom sex and gender are congruent, that basic level of heterogenous sex kinship creates a safe space in which to do it. Hence, natural -- as in arising from nature.

    I may be expressing myself poorly. Can you understand?
    Last edited by Kneenibble; 2012-02-29 at 02:18 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kneenibble View Post
    I cannot imagine how one could study that kind of thing, so no: but the historical depth of the precedent is difficult to deny.

    Bathroom activities are body activities -- specifically, genital-area activities; and activities around which we strange upright mammals already feel a degree of discomfort. Privacy is best; but when it is not available, as in public space washrooms: for the vast majority of people in whom sex and gender are congruent, that basic level of heterogenous sex kinship creates a safe space in which to do it. Hence, natural -- as in arising from nature.

    I may be expressing myself poorly. Can you understand?
    I suspect it could be studied in the same way that other claims about whether a certain behavior is socially influenced or naturally arising are studied. Like the sort of studies which suggest that the perceived greater spatial intelligence of men is due to social conditioning rather than any inherent difference between men and women. Unfortunately, the exact methods of that sort of research are a bit unclear to me, as it's been a while since I've studied such things. I will make a mental note to read up on it and get back to you.

    From a purely evolutionary standpoint, I can't see any reason why such behavior would arise either, but I am not a social scientist nor a evolutionary psychologist. (But dammit if I don't wish I could be. Alas, art keeps me too busy as it is.)
    Last edited by Nix Nihila; 2012-02-29 at 02:38 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #253
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    It is normal for humans to be coy of their bodies around members of opposite sex. There is no culture where coyness doesn't exist.

    However, the manner in which it does exist is highly culturally dependent. For example, there are cultures where no clothes are worn - but the proper way for adults of different sexes to talk is back-to-back, to prevent leering.

    Personally, I'm fine with unisex bathrooms, and even unisex changing rooms, showers and saunas. But I'd expect unisex bathrooms to not have urinals and have toilets in separate stalls with doors.

    I actually find it somewhat ridiculous that workplaces are by law mandated to have separate toilets for men and women... when both are identical, with locked doors, and are meant to be used by one person at a time anyhow.
    "It's the fate of all things under the sky,
    to grow old and wither and die."

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    I strongly suspect that your discomfort is a learned response, Kneenibble. I imagine that if you'd grown up with unisex bathrooms as the norm, you wouldnt feel strange about it in the slightest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalirren View Post
    The only person in the past two pages who has known what (s)he has been talking about is Heliomance.
    Quote Originally Posted by golentan View Post
    I just don't want to have long romantic conversations or any sort of drama with my computer, okay? It knows what kind of porn I watch. I don't want to mess that up by allowing it to judge any of my choices in romance.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Arachu View Post
    *Fist-bump* I'll defend you if you defend me. Or even if you don't, actually - the only person that should decide who you are is you.
    Let's defend us together!

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    Edit: Oh but before the burger--Kender, what's the distinction between a hill and a mountain?
    As far as I can tell, it really is just a matter of scale. I would also be inclined to say that all mountains are made of rock, while it is possible (like with drumlins) to have hills made of sediment.

    Oh, by the way, I checked into the thing about "safe days" for heteronormative sex. Apparently, if you track fertility right (which involves lots of paying attention and taking an accurate temperature at exactly the same time every day), it's almost as safe as condoms. The trick is doing it right, because everyone's different, and people who are menstruating are all on different cycles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
    KenderWizard: It's a matter of empathy. I know that when I say I'm interested in trans rights (almost wrote trans tights...) a certain amount of people will draw the conclusion that I'm secretly transsexual. That's the attitude we need to change; the casual assumption that one needs something other than common decency to worry about people being killed and persecuted.
    Hear hear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kneenibble View Post
    No, Kender. You get carried away when you essay-rant. It has nothing to do with something as ridiculous as perceived danger of rape. That's dumb.

    Gender-segregated bathrooms are a comfortable & safe space for most people. I don't mean safe, like safe from physical harm: I mean in the sense of mental safety. I don't feel comfortable doing bathroom activities around women. Everybody I am ticking off in my head right now that I know in real life would feel as uncomfortable as me if the opposite gender could come in to their public bathroom safe space.

    It's a serious, deeply ingrained, and quite frankly, natural gender sex affinity. You can't just write it off like that.

    My place of work -- which happens to be a very progressive University -- has gender-segregated bathrooms, plus single-stall unisex bathrooms for the very small minority who are uncomfortable with the former. I think that's a great solution.
    Please don't call what I say dumb, when I'm responding to a prevailing opinion. I have literally never heard the argument "We should have gender-segregated restrooms because some people are inherently and drastically uncomfortable with eliminating waste around members of the opposite gender, but absolutely fine around members of the same gender." before. It has always, always, always been "Because that's how it is." or "To protect women from men."

    I am wildly uncomfortable with eliminating waste around anyone at all (I'm one of those people who can't talk on the toilet), but that's why we have cubicles, rather than just a room full of toilets. And I would be equally uncomfortable, if someone walked into my cubicle, if they were a man or a woman.

    But you and me aside, why can't the solution be unisex bathrooms, with some single ones, for people who are very uncomfortable with communal bathrooms for any reason at all?

    Cheerfairy, Kenderwoman and Geologist by Succubus, Feminist Geomancer by Astrella, Kender Wizard by me

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by turkishproverb View Post
    Yes. I was working on a paper a while back on why there are more LGBT than the standard population in many niche interstate groups like scifi, anime, fantasy, roleplaying, etc. The central theory I have is that when only a few other people like the same thing, other differences start to seem less important, combined with the general nature of these groups themselves being marginalized in their own small way.
    That sounds pretty interesting. I suppose I just haven't run into enough anime fans since high school to judge. Among the gamers here, several are genderqueer/trans/bi/&c.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post
    I've returned from my time off to put two-and-two together. (FOUR!)

    It took from last week to today for me to realize I'm in love. Yeah, that's what was eating at me. I've found I really like someone.

    But there's another thing: I'm still completely in the dark about my own gender. I have no issues deeming myself male or female, but it's something that's constantly tugging me back and forth, back and forth. It's hard to go from bouncing my hips while I walk (which I still do, it's fun!), to acting like a supreme gentleman. It's a funny world, isn't it?

    I've read about schools that had unisex bathrooms. The idea was abandoned when sexual harassment, and even rape complaints came through. It's a shame that we've come so far as to not even respect the sanctity of the bathroom.
    Welcome back!
    And I'm terribly sorry to hear about your revelation. By which I mean, good luck with that, and I hope it works out for you however you decide to act on those feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
    I go in, do my business, wash my hands and leave. There could be an elephant in a pink tutu in the corner and I wouldn't care.

    That's probably not literally true, but it sounds good.
    If there were an elephant in the corner, pink tutu or not, I think I'd notice. Most bathrooms aren't all that big. Whether I'd care or just grumble about the freshmen leaving their crap in the bathroom like I usually do is another matter.
    Also, I'd like to thank you for washing your hands after you do your business. Living in a freshman boys' dorm, one comes to appreciate those people with good hygiene.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kneenibble View Post
    I cannot imagine how one could study that kind of thing, so no: but the historical depth of the precedent is difficult to deny.

    Bathroom activities are body activities -- specifically, genital-area activities; and activities around which we strange upright mammals already feel a degree of discomfort. Privacy is best; but when it is not available, as in public space washrooms: for the vast majority of people in whom sex and gender are congruent, that basic level of heterogenous sex kinship creates a safe space in which to do it. Hence, natural -- as in arising from nature.

    I may be expressing myself poorly. Can you understand?
    I can't really understand. Isn't the stall privacy enough? I've comfortably done my business with a girl in the next stall. I respect that it's uncomfortable for you, but I don't really get why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    It is normal for humans to be coy of their bodies around members of opposite sex. There is no culture where coyness doesn't exist.

    *snip*

    I actually find it somewhat ridiculous that workplaces are by law mandated to have separate toilets for men and women... when both are identical, with locked doors, and are meant to be used by one person at a time anyhow.
    Is it really? I strongly suspect that if I hadn't grown up around all these silly humans, I wouldn't have an issue with nudity. But then, I'm not exactly normal anyway.

    As for the gendered one-person restrooms--yes, that's ridiculous. Although when given the option I usually use the women's room in that case, because it's often cleaner. I think last time I went by the gendered one-person restrooms in the dining hall, the toilet in the men's room had urine on the seat and floor, while the toilet in the women's room only had a hair on the seat. I'd much rather touch a hair than drop trow in a puddle of urine.
    Jude P.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by KenderWizard View Post
    I am wildly uncomfortable with eliminating waste around anyone at all (I'm one of those people who can't talk on the toilet), but that's why we have cubicles, rather than just a room full of toilets. And I would be equally uncomfortable, if someone walked into my cubicle, if they were a man or a woman.

    But you and me aside, why can't the solution be unisex bathrooms, with some single ones, for people who are very uncomfortable with communal bathrooms for any reason at all?
    Just to say, I feel the same way! And I honestly find it weird that most men are supposed to be able to urine next to other guys who are commenting and/or watching.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwarf Fortress 0.40.01 bugs
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi View Post
    Just to say, I feel the same way! And I honestly find it weird that most men are supposed to be able to urine next to other guys who are commenting and/or watching.
    That is a serious breach of bathroom ettiquette. Eyes front at all times, no talking until you get to the sinks - and even then, only if you have to. Preferably, wait until you're out of the bathroom to speak.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalirren View Post
    The only person in the past two pages who has known what (s)he has been talking about is Heliomance.
    Quote Originally Posted by golentan View Post
    I just don't want to have long romantic conversations or any sort of drama with my computer, okay? It knows what kind of porn I watch. I don't want to mess that up by allowing it to judge any of my choices in romance.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by KenderWizard View Post
    Let's defend us together!
    *joins fistbumping and mutual defense*

    As far as I can tell, it really is just a matter of scale. I would also be inclined to say that all mountains are made of rock, while it is possible (like with drumlins) to have hills made of sediment.

    Oh, by the way, I checked into the thing about "safe days" for heteronormative sex. Apparently, if you track fertility right (which involves lots of paying attention and taking an accurate temperature at exactly the same time every day), it's almost as safe as condoms. The trick is doing it right, because everyone's different, and people who are menstruating are all on different cycles.
    Huh. I just asked my dad too, and he thought it had something to do with angle of incline. (He's not a geologist, I just still expect him to know everything.)

    So basically, barely any women will actually know when their safe days are.

    Please don't call what I say dumb, when I'm responding to a prevailing opinion. I have literally never heard the argument "We should have gender-segregated restrooms because some people are inherently and drastically uncomfortable with eliminating waste around members of the opposite gender, but absolutely fine around members of the same gender." before. It has always, always, always been "Because that's how it is." or "To protect women from men."

    I am wildly uncomfortable with eliminating waste around anyone at all (I'm one of those people who can't talk on the toilet), but that's why we have cubicles, rather than just a room full of toilets. And I would be equally uncomfortable, if someone walked into my cubicle, if they were a man or a woman.

    But you and me aside, why can't the solution be unisex bathrooms, with some single ones, for people who are very uncomfortable with communal bathrooms for any reason at all?
    I have more or less trouble doing my business with someone in the next stall on different days. It's weird. Yesterday I was able to tell myself "You're being dumb, let's just finish this and get out of here, just don't make eye contact if they come out of the stall the same time you do," but other days I can't and I have to wait for them to leave.

    As for why that's not a viable solution, I'd guess the answer is Capitalism. One big unisex restroom is cheaper than two small gendered ones, but gets more complaints and potentially lawsuits. Having the couple of single ones also costs more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi View Post
    Just to say, I feel the same way! And I honestly find it weird that most men are supposed to be able to urine next to other guys who are commenting and/or watching.
    How do they even do that? I have trouble using urinals even in the few single-person restrooms that have locking doors and a urinal as well as a toilet. They just have such a strong association with that feeling of exposure.
    My ideal unisex restrooms would not have urinals, just lots and lots of stalls. And the stalls would be unable to open until the toilet is flushed and the seat is down, and there would be some kind of system to make sure people wash their hands. (Even in the girls' bathrooms here I often hear people walk out without washing their hands. What the heck.)

    edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    That is a serious breach of bathroom ettiquette. Eyes front at all times, no talking until you get to the sinks - and even then, only if you have to. Preferably, wait until you're out of the bathroom to speak.
    Really? I always thought it was eyes front at at all times, but talking is okay. Maybe it depends on the area.
    Last edited by noparlpf; 2012-02-29 at 06:24 AM.
    Jude P.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    That is a serious breach of bathroom ettiquette. Eyes front at all times, no talking until you get to the sinks - and even then, only if you have to. Preferably, wait until you're out of the bathroom to speak.
    Either there are cultural differences in bathroom use between the places where we live, or I was exposed to stereotypes that are vastly out of touch with reality (which wouldn't be unlikely, given that I don't go in men-only bathrooms).
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi View Post
    Either there are cultural differences in bathroom use between the places where we live, or I was exposed to stereotypes that are vastly out of touch with reality (which wouldn't be unlikely, given that I don't go in men-only bathrooms).
    Yeah, and a lot of TV shows show two guys talking at the urinals. Though possibly that's for humor value because of how inappropriate it is?
    I've seen guys talk at the urinals in real life before, though.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    It happens occasionally. It's weird as all get-out, though.

    I read an Asimov story a while ago, where over hundreds of years, it had become absolutely taboo to speak in the men's bathroom, or even to acknowledge the existence of any other people in there.
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    The only person in the past two pages who has known what (s)he has been talking about is Heliomance.
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    I just don't want to have long romantic conversations or any sort of drama with my computer, okay? It knows what kind of porn I watch. I don't want to mess that up by allowing it to judge any of my choices in romance.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    Yeah, and a lot of TV shows show two guys talking at the urinals. Though possibly that's for humor value because of how inappropriate it is?
    I've seen guys talk at the urinals in real life before, though.
    I think talking is only okay if it's in a pub and both are drunk.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by pffh View Post
    I think talking is only okay if it's in a pub and both are drunk.
    I know I've seen it happen in public high school. And we don't have urinals here, but I hear conversations in the bathrooms here on occasion.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    That is a serious breach of bathroom ettiquette. Eyes front at all times, no talking until you get to the sinks - and even then, only if you have to. Preferably, wait until you're out of the bathroom to speak.
    This right here is how I view it. If you're going to have a unisex bathroom, have it as stalls only. I get massively uncomfortable if there's anyone else in the room with me and I'll often wait rather than use a urinal next to someone.

    Personal space, y'know.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by KenderWizard View Post
    Let's defend us together!
    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    *joins fistbumping and mutual defense*
    We shall be shields by which the patriarchy gets slapped right on the freaking chin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi View Post
    Just to say, I feel the same way! And I honestly find it weird that most men are supposed to be able to urine next to other guys who are commenting and/or watching.
    I've never gotten how people can do that.

    I can't just from knowing that someone has a clear line of sight to any part of my body other than my face, but I've never been quite sure why.


    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    I read an Asimov story a while ago, where over hundreds of years, it had become absolutely taboo to speak in the men's bathroom, or even to acknowledge the existence of any other people in there.
    Huh. Guess I'm ahead of my time, then.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kneenibble View Post
    I cannot imagine how one could study that kind of thing, so no: but the historical depth of the precedent is difficult to deny.

    Bathroom activities are body activities -- specifically, genital-area activities; and activities around which we strange upright mammals already feel a degree of discomfort. Privacy is best; but when it is not available, as in public space washrooms: for the vast majority of people in whom sex and gender are congruent, that basic level of heterogenous sex kinship creates a safe space in which to do it. Hence, natural -- as in arising from nature.

    I may be expressing myself poorly. Can you understand?
    But in enclosed stalls, what does the gender of the person next to you who you can't even see or hear matter? This just seems like one of those enforced gaps between genders.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

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    Highly relevant for this thread. Print it, take it home and practice.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Something gender-related I want out of my chest:

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    When I was a kid, 5 or 6 years old, I had issues with infections in my nether parts. My mother had to, well, take care of that, and it hurt. I can almost feel the sting when I remember that episode of my life.

    Anyway, once I said I wanted to be a girl, so I wouldn't have those infections (and the pain). Immediately, both my mother and my (elder) sister told me that I shouldn't want to be a girl, that girls have far worse problems with their nether parts (at least as far as hygiene goes). I'm not sure, but I think they said that boys can stand peeing as well.

    I know they meant well, and they technically were right about the hygiene stuff, but it still seems so weird in hindsight. Like being a girl or wanting to be a girl would be that terrible.


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    Edit: Seems my meds are kicking in. Maybe I won't kill myself after all!
    Yay! (Also: don't kill yourself.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
    The difference is that LGB is not a condition that requires treatment. Transsexuality requires the proper treatment, which usually consists of a number TLA*s given over the course of some years.

    *Three Letter Acronym
    So? It's not like LGB would start needing treatment because they hang around with people who does. I mean, surely they have no issues with people with disabilities, generally speaking (I hope).

    Quote Originally Posted by Nix Nihila View Post
    I know some people have expressed the opinion that LGB people would be better off in terms of rights if they weren't associated with T people, and that we're "****ing them over" by being included in the same bills that protect their rights. For example, IIRC, the Human Rights Campaign was very hesitant to advocate a trans-inclusive ENDA out of fear that it wouldn't pass.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astrella View Post
    House tends to be pretty iffy. :<
    The show really is hero-worship of a jerk, and rationalization of jerky behaviour. The writers really have no or little clue how the medical profession works. People skills are needed for a reason.

    The earlier seasons of Scrubs were much better. Perry Cox may be a jerk too, but he's a different type of jerk, and he cares about his patients.

    Some tangents: I think a big problem with society / subgroups is as well that they tend to present only one narrative as valid. The whole study - get a job - marry & and settle down is pretty prevalent, but it shows up in a lot of places. I can think of gatekeeping in relation to trans* people and medical care. (The whole, having to be straight, presenting very feminine etc. to be able to transition.) Other things I can think of is femme erasure in lesbian circles, gold star lesbians (aka lesbians who haven't been in contact with the vile male member), feminism being a mainly cis, white, upperclass women thing (more in the early days then now) leading to womanist segregation and such. Which is a shame, because more narratives just give you more angles to look at issues. (Which is also why it annoys me so much when people's stories / experiences aren't seen as valid; the whole "queerer / more trans than thou" thing; it's basically people telling other people that their theories are more important than people's experiences.)
    Yeah. I agree wholeheartedly.

    That's the really unfortunate part about most MRA's; there are specific issues regarding men that need to be addressed but a lot of them get very knee-jerky and are dealing with a whole load of other -isms themselves.
    Yeah.

    I personally think that one of the reasons for these cliques are that when controversial topics are discussed, it so often gets heated and the debaters refuse to "take in" what the other side is saying and/or *why* the other side is saying that, which hardly leads to mutual understanding. So both end up hiding in their "safe" places and talk with the rest of their "mutual admiration clubs".

    Incidentally, there are talks about allowing single women to get insemination in Sweden, and obviously, there are men talking about how discriminating this is to men. I can understand the logic behind that, and I guess allowing single men to have surrogate mothers could be a solution to that. At the same time, it all comes down to the fact cis males can't bear children. It's *unfair*, but if you have issue with that, the only solution is to pay science and hope it will fix that mistake of Mother Parent Nature.

    Exactly, that's why the whole argument annoys me so much when it's brought up in "bathroom bills"; if someone is out to cause harm, they won't let a symbol stop them. And off course the hurtful side-effect of painting trans* people as sexual predators. :s
    Yeah.

    I dunno, I feel that since trans persons are generally even more persecuted than cis women, it's very unlikely they would try to harass cis women, in restrooms or other places.

    BTW, if I was a heteronormative cis woman, I would be pleased if "some men wants to be women", rather than being threatened by it. But that's childish logic anyway.

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    Having a really bad bout of it again, skipped out on class today cause I felt really bad; been really nervous and panicky. I even cut myself in my arm earlier. Nothing severe, but still, it scares me. D: I'm feeling pretty okay right now though.


    So, since I'm still too nervous to go to stores alone, I was poking online to order clothes; was thinking of getting a skirt and leggings / kneesocks and a matching top, but I don't know much about fashion. :< Any thoughts?
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    Don't do that again!

    I'm so sorry you have to live through that.

    *Hugs*


    I like leggings, but kneesocks look nice too. :3

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    It happens occasionally. It's weird as all get-out, though.

    I read an Asimov story a while ago, where over hundreds of years, it had become absolutely taboo to speak in the men's bathroom, or even to acknowledge the existence of any other people in there.
    I read that story too. I'm pretty sure it was The Caves of Steel. Elijah Baley (the protagonist) also expressed jealousy at women who, in his opinion, have it easier when going to public restrooms, since they are allowed (in not encouraged) to talk with each other while being in those.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

    Can I get a link to the deviantart page again? I feel a creative tickle again this week and might do a few bits and pieces over the weekend.

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