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  1. - Top - End - #421
    Halfling in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    I have been lirking this for a while.
    Time to contribute.

    I would like one standing "Law" of the game. Cause and Effect. You use your Life energy to say, animate an object. It succeds. Your target object is animated AND somewhere far away (or close) a random effect of Life energy happens to the same level of animation you used on the object.
    Just my two cents. (you can have 3 if you want)
    Awesome Avatar by DarkCorax. Go check him out, really.

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  2. - Top - End - #422
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Durksmurf View Post
    I have been lirking this for a while.
    Time to contribute.

    I would like one standing "Law" of the game. Cause and Effect. You use your Life energy to say, animate an object. It succeds. Your target object is animated AND somewhere far away (or close) a random effect of Life energy happens to the same level of animation you used on the object.
    Just my two cents. (you can have 3 if you want)
    Ah a newcomer! Welcome to the brave world of POSTING!

    I do have a type of "Cause and Effect" type deal in my game. There is no "Free" manipulation of energy. If you want to boost your buddy's First, it means you're going to have to lower your own a bit. I have a number of rules and mechanics to moderate this and it is intended to be a significant part of the game. Certain Alchemies may result in more far-ranging Energy-based effects.

    Random note:

    Energies v Alchemies v -Ness's (Functions)

    Energy: There's 12 main ones. They can go up and down. Pretty much everything will have some Structure (First) and Energies are needed to make pretty much everything else in existence.

    Alchemy: An "Alchemy" is something made with Energies and has some sort of stranger function. A favorite of mine is the "Interpretation Engine" which causes the Melded vessel to treat certain -Ness's as others.

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    A sort of "Converter" would be an Alchemy. Something that, say, tried to reverse any inertia entering a given field would be an Alchemy (Probably requiring a lot of Second and Seventh to function). You can think of Alchemies as sort of Energy Machines that accomplish various tasks too complicated for a Ness.

    Ness's: A basic function. Swordness is our most famous example. All types of matter have a specific Ness about them. Liquidness, particulateness, flexibleness and so on.. It is not advisable to apply such a Ness to a living being (I think it may not be possible). Ness's can be created by combining Energies and are much easier to make than Alchemies. I think that players may be allowed to apply up to four Ness's to themselves at a time.

    Note: Alchemies and Ness's are still experimental. The majority of my work has been on Shapes and Energies. With these alone the game is playable. I obviously want to see Alchemies and Ness's become an integral part of the game and it is obvious that the players I'm looking to appeal to will spend most of their time toying with these. As a result, I need to be eeeeextra careful when I make 'em. My current project.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daverin View Post
    Welknair, you are like... some living avatar of win. Who's made of win. And wields win as if it were but a toy. Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Virdish
    Welknair you are a god among men. Thank you for creating a playground for the completely insane.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark
    There have also been times where I was jealous of your ingenuity and skills.

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  3. - Top - End - #423
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    You're giving us all that?

    Brave soul. I'll play a good song at your funeral.

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  4. - Top - End - #424
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    Yes! Now to gorge on ideas, so that we may devour his exquisite corpse.

    In other news; the Risus+Nomic project kinda evolved... into me starting on making my own interpretation of Bequeathed a Rotting Kingdom.

    The thread that is about the game is here.

    So, yeah, if you want to help me playtest something based off of the link, I'll need testers.

    Sorry to distract the thread, just thought I would get some vampiric-advertisement out.
    Quote Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj View Post
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    If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you!

  5. - Top - End - #425
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Yes! Now to gorge on ideas, so that we may devour his exquisite corpse.

    In other news; the Risus+Nomic project kinda evolved... into me starting on making my own interpretation of Bequeathed a Rotting Kingdom.

    The thread that is about the game is here.

    So, yeah, if you want to help me playtest something based off of the link, I'll need testers.

    Sorry to distract the thread, just thought I would get some vampiric-advertisement out.
    Ooh, definitely interested in RisuNomic! I can't seem to figure out which one is you, though. Can't seem to find an "Amechra". I'd also suggest making a thread on these boards somewhere on the topic for easy discussion. It seems like you have a pretty lively conversation going on over there, though!

    And yeah, I figured you guys would be able to have a field day with that much. Obviously the homebrewing of Alchemies is going to be a pretty big thing.

    Edit: I've been meaning to post a link to this comic for a while now. It's a bit slow to update, but it's total-crazy-ness level is pretty up there, engendering a similar feel of "Everything you know about the world is wrong". And it has TALKING COOKIES. THE KING WILL HEAR OF THIS!
    Last edited by Welknair; 2012-06-11 at 01:17 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daverin View Post
    Welknair, you are like... some living avatar of win. Who's made of win. And wields win as if it were but a toy. Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Virdish
    Welknair you are a god among men. Thank you for creating a playground for the completely insane.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark
    There have also been times where I was jealous of your ingenuity and skills.

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  6. - Top - End - #426
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    ... That thread has nothing to do with Risunomics.

    Look at the dates; I'm not over there (I started gaming in '09, which, now that I think about it, was a long time ago.), but I've always wanted to make a game based off it.

    So Risunomics is going on hold (ultimately, I'm having a few problems in breaking down the rules; nothing big, its just I'm too busy right now to make sure I got it right.), while I tackle making all of that into a cohesive setting in which I can place an RPG.

    No worries, eh? (I relax in the oddest ways...)
    Quote Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj View Post
    door is a fake exterior wall
    If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you!

  7. - Top - End - #427
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    ... That thread has nothing to do with Risunomics.

    Look at the dates; I'm not over there (I started gaming in '09, which, now that I think about it, was a long time ago.), but I've always wanted to make a game based off it.

    So Risunomics is going on hold (ultimately, I'm having a few problems in breaking down the rules; nothing big, its just I'm too busy right now to make sure I got it right.), while I tackle making all of that into a cohesive setting in which I can place an RPG.

    No worries, eh? (I relax in the oddest ways...)
    Ohhhh! I should have thought to check dates. And wow. I made my forum account here in 2009. GOSH DARN TWELFTH, SNEAKING UP ON ME.

    As long as you're maintaing the fundamentals of Nomic, do note that any rules you include at the start are more than likely going to change. All you need is a basic framework for things to start from. I still very much look forward to seeing what you come up with!
    Avatar by Araveugnitsuga

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daverin View Post
    Welknair, you are like... some living avatar of win. Who's made of win. And wields win as if it were but a toy. Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Virdish
    Welknair you are a god among men. Thank you for creating a playground for the completely insane.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark
    There have also been times where I was jealous of your ingenuity and skills.

    Extended Homebrewer's Signature

  8. - Top - End - #428
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    Quote Originally Posted by SamBurke View Post
    You're giving us all that?
    Indeed. Please wait until the manual is complete and registered before laying out broad strokes of text, Welknair.

  9. - Top - End - #429
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    I think the artist M.C. Escher would have have a field day playing this game. Imagine how many of his artworks would be entirely possible, if not the NORM.

    "Wait. Is my apartment on upside-down level Red next door to the Duck-Squids or is on rightside-up level 5 diagonal to Gareth, the Goblin King?"

    "Both, duh."

    "Oh that's right! I must have lost some Fifth in that last Alchemy."
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  10. - Top - End - #430
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Story Time View Post
    Indeed. Please wait until the manual is complete and registered before laying out broad strokes of text, Welknair.
    I've been thinking a bit about this issue. In short, this is my first real venture into the world of publishing and proper game-making. The way I work, I kind of feed off of forum responses. You guys encourage me to continue and help guide my creation of the game. I'm not posting any of the actual text from the book, and thus there won't be any direct copyright problems. As for idea-stealing:

    1. Who is honesty going to steal these ideas? I recognize that you guys believe them to be very cool, but the fact is that this game will be extremely niche.

    2. If they DO steal my ideas, then hey. If they can make my game to the level where it's popular and widespread, I'll do a little victory dance. Proof of concept, baby. I can make something with that much potential. "Imitation is the greatest form of flattery"

    3. If they do steal my ideas, so what? The main people I want to get this game are right here on this thread, or other people I'm in direct contact with. They'll know that whatever game was made based on my ideas isn't mine. I can still freely finish my own, possibly with a couple of name changes (But I doubt they can trademark "Energy" or "Shape". Pretty generic as-is).

    The worst thing I could possibly see happening is someone grabbing these ideas and mass-marketing them, twisting them away from what I originally intended. But I really, really doubt that will happen.

    I am young. I am creative. I doubt that this will be the last game I ever make. This is a learning experience for me. I require feedback for my creative process, and it's difficult to get the level I'd like with only people I know IRL. If I have to be paranoid to market and sell this game, maybe I shouldn't do so. I want to give you guys the best game I can make, and frankly I don't see that happening when I'm sitting here in a bubble.

    I currently plan to plod on as I have been, but I have resolved to be a little less concerned that everyone's out to steal my ideas. To me, getting my game out there and played is infinitely more important than making money. If it comes to it, I could just post the whole thing free online. I stil fully intend to market and publish it, but it won't be the end of the world if someone beats me to it.

    Of course this all doesn't mean I'm suddenly going to start handing out specifics all over the place. The above post is almost entirely recap of things that have previously been mentioned, plus an update.

    Energies and -Ness's: Nothing new here, save for the potential to apply -Ness's to a player, which you guys had jumped to long ago. That, and that there's some sort of balance in Energies, which I believe I alluded to earlier.

    Alchemies: I'd previously talked the least about these. But I made the description here intentionally open-ended. THEY MAKE WIERD THINGS HAPPEN. The point was to get you guys going with some more crazy ideas.


    What are everyone's opinions here? My impression is that I've long since passed the line where people wouldn't be able to make a work that resembled mine based off the ideas in this thread. I don't see the harm in giving my followers a little more to work with. If many of you agree, though, I suppose I could resume being extra-careful about how much information I dole out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daverin View Post
    Welknair, you are like... some living avatar of win. Who's made of win. And wields win as if it were but a toy. Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Virdish
    Welknair you are a god among men. Thank you for creating a playground for the completely insane.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark
    There have also been times where I was jealous of your ingenuity and skills.

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  11. - Top - End - #431
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Welknair View Post
    What are everyone's opinions here? My impression is that I've long since passed the line where people wouldn't be able to make a work that resembled mine based off the ideas in this thread. I don't see the harm in giving my followers a little more to work with. If many of you agree, though, I suppose I could resume being extra-careful about how much information I dole out.
    You and me work similarly, at least in this sense. I think best bouncing ideas off of other people. Sometimes, people make comments that make you go "Ooo! I really like/want to do that!" Other times while explaining something, an idea comes out of the explination. Best of all, feed back allows someone who is outside of the information look into it and give you honest, uninfluenced reception. So, naturally, I agree with your thoughts.

    And by all means, don't put all the information out at once! Part of the creativity we've had has been because you limit this! Plus it allows you to test out specific sections on us without having us look at the whole.

    As for the whole idea stealing...it's no good having a heart attack worrying about project hijacking - but just remember to take precautions, which it seems you are doing. As you said, keep quotes out of here, and in a more private setting (if you plan on presenting the source to us at a point). Google Docs is a good one, and there's another I can't remember the name of.

    In other words, I think you've got the right thinking about this! Though, I for one love the hints! Mysteries and riddles are certainly something of which I'm fond.
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  12. - Top - End - #432
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    Yeah, you are right in the theft; for my current project, I'm stealing from stuff like Risus and C[superscript]o[/superscript]ntinuum to get inspiration for how combats involving an amalgam of Time Travel, Psychic Powers, Memetic Social Engineering, Super-Tech Hacking, and good ol' Fisticuffs.

    I hope it will work...
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  13. - Top - End - #433
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    Also, seconding MC Escher. Because non-standard gravity and spatial dimensions is just awesome.
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  14. - Top - End - #434
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    Still reading and compiling my list of hints and knowledge but color me immensely intrigued. I started reading this thread as a sort of idea board for steps I'll have to do for my own game and I think in the last couple hours of reading I have suffered so many mindsplosions that I may have to seek medical attention before I no longer am able to form rationale thought. I'm not completely done reading yet but Welknair you are a god among men. Thank you for creating a playground for the completely insane.
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  15. - Top - End - #435
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWombatOfDoom View Post
    You and me work similarly, at least in this sense. I think best bouncing ideas off of other people. Sometimes, people make comments that make you go "Ooo! I really like/want to do that!" Other times while explaining something, an idea comes out of the explination. Best of all, feed back allows someone who is outside of the information look into it and give you honest, uninfluenced reception. So, naturally, I agree with your thoughts.

    And by all means, don't put all the information out at once! Part of the creativity we've had has been because you limit this! Plus it allows you to test out specific sections on us without having us look at the whole.

    As for the whole idea stealing...it's no good having a heart attack worrying about project hijacking - but just remember to take precautions, which it seems you are doing. As you said, keep quotes out of here, and in a more private setting (if you plan on presenting the source to us at a point). Google Docs is a good one, and there's another I can't remember the name of.

    In other words, I think you've got the right thinking about this! Though, I for one love the hints! Mysteries and riddles are certainly something of which I'm fond.
    I do intend to continue with my basic precautions, and have no plans to stop with the hints! Those are half the fun!

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Yeah, you are right in the theft; for my current project, I'm stealing from stuff like Risus and C[superscript]o[/superscript]ntinuum to get inspiration for how combats involving an amalgam of Time Travel, Psychic Powers, Memetic Social Engineering, Super-Tech Hacking, and good ol' Fisticuffs.

    I hope it will work...
    I'm sure it'll turn out amazingly. I'd be very surprised if it didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by SamBurke View Post
    Also, seconding MC Escher. Because non-standard gravity and spatial dimensions is just awesome.
    Imagine trying to have grid-combat in one of those.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virdish View Post
    Still reading and compiling my list of hints and knowledge but color me immensely intrigued. I started reading this thread as a sort of idea board for steps I'll have to do for my own game and I think in the last couple hours of reading I have suffered so many mindsplosions that I may have to seek medical attention before I no longer am able to form rationale thought. I'm not completely done reading yet but Welknair you are a god among men. Thank you for creating a playground for the completely insane.
    I hope you don't mind I sig'd the last bit of that!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daverin View Post
    Welknair, you are like... some living avatar of win. Who's made of win. And wields win as if it were but a toy. Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Virdish
    Welknair you are a god among men. Thank you for creating a playground for the completely insane.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark
    There have also been times where I was jealous of your ingenuity and skills.

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  16. - Top - End - #436
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    Not at all I am honored to make the Sig. This is so much to take in. I will need some time to fully digest all that you have put out.
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  17. - Top - End - #437
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Virdish View Post
    I will need some time to fully digest all that you have put out.
    Given you've been reading through the thread, I'd assume you know that this is by no means an uncommon response. It takes a bit of getting used to, but once you do you'll be eating Swordness Pie along with the rest of us.

    Random observation: 8,000 views is coming up! I think I may have some goodies when it rolls around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daverin View Post
    Welknair, you are like... some living avatar of win. Who's made of win. And wields win as if it were but a toy. Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Virdish
    Welknair you are a god among men. Thank you for creating a playground for the completely insane.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark
    There have also been times where I was jealous of your ingenuity and skills.

    Extended Homebrewer's Signature

  18. - Top - End - #438
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Welknair View Post
    Given you've been reading through the thread, I'd assume you know that this is by no means an uncommon response. It takes a bit of getting used to, but once you do you'll be eating Swordness Pie along with the rest of us.

    Random observation: 8,000 views is coming up! I think I may have some goodies when it rolls around.
    HECK YEAH! Maybe some of those not-classes we've heard so little about?
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  19. - Top - End - #439
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWombatOfDoom View Post
    HECK YEAH! Maybe some of those not-classes we've heard so little about?
    I was thinking along the lines of allowing four questions to be asked, which I would answer quite truthfully (Although not necessarily entirely. I have a bit of experience with Players and Divinations). This would be on a first-come-first-serve basis, with no one being able to ask more than a single question. I'd assume you may want to strategize about your questions before asking them.

    Though if it is the popular opinion, I may be able to give a couple of Shape tidbits instead.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daverin View Post
    Welknair, you are like... some living avatar of win. Who's made of win. And wields win as if it were but a toy. Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Virdish
    Welknair you are a god among men. Thank you for creating a playground for the completely insane.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark
    There have also been times where I was jealous of your ingenuity and skills.

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  20. - Top - End - #440
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    With this croud giving four questions would surely need a thread devoted to our discussions of which questions we should ask. It would be at least a week before the first question was asked. We would all be fat on swordness pies by the time we put the first sentence of our epic questions together.
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Virdish View Post
    With this croud giving four questions would surely need a thread devoted to our discussions of which questions we should ask. It would be at least a week before the first question was asked. We would all be fat on swordness pies by the time we put the first sentence of our epic questions together.
    Inb4legaldocuments? Hmm.. Do you have an alternative proposal?
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    No I love your idea. Just saying that you have a rather particular following. We would all want to achieve the most insight out of any question we put forth.
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Virdish View Post
    No I love your idea. Just saying that you have a rather particular following. We would all want to achieve the most insight out of any question we put fourth.
    I think I'll likely go with that, then! As per Wombat, yall may wish to ask something about the not-classes (I've called them Shapes enough times that you ought to know that's their name). I'm perfectly fine with question-conjecture being posted on this thread - the more activity the better! Once four posters vote for a single question, said question will be answered. Discussion may begin now, though obviously no questions will be answered before we hit 8,000 views (Which will more than likely be sometime tonight).

    Edit: Of course asking for any direct quotes from the work, or specifics on mechanics, will not be met with success. *See basic precautions, discussed a bit earlier*
    Last edited by Welknair; 2012-06-12 at 12:51 AM.
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    I second the question about shapes, and motion to specify it further to what exactly they do for a character.

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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    Quote Originally Posted by MageSparrowhawk View Post
    I second the question about shapes, and motion to specify it further to what exactly they do for a character.
    Counting Wombat's suggestion as a question-vote, that is now two votes for Shape-details. And no, I will not be keeping tally after every single vote. Just occasionally to make sure everyone's on the same page with this thing.

    Edit: Retracting the two-vote-count. I'm going to specify that it must be four posters that all post identical, fully-phrased questions.
    Last edited by Welknair; 2012-06-12 at 01:24 AM.
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    I think something needs to be asked about the tier system that Welknair has talked so much about. It seems to honestly be a base for the character in it's entirety as he has mentioned that one of the tiers will be social. Either we somehow need to work this into the shape question or make it a question of it's own.
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Virdish View Post
    I think something needs to be asked about the tier system that Welknair has talked so much about. It seems to honestly be a base for the character in it's entirety as he has mentioned that one of the tiers will be social. Either we somehow need to work this into the shape question or make it a question of it's own.
    And so it begins.

    Edit: And there it is. Just passed 8k. May the questions roll.
    Last edited by Welknair; 2012-06-12 at 02:04 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    Gentlemen, Ladies and Lurkers! In light of the current windfall of possible information, I'd like to input what we already know so that we may better identify what we do not.

    Elements:We know there is a Zero energy called space, as well as 12 energies. The 1st is Structure, 2nd is Movement, Fourth is Life. Fifth is Mind or Knowledge and Sixth is Emotion or Temperament (Though we have not found the exact titles). Seventh has been mentioned many times and mistaken to be Gravity, but it is not. I at least don't know what it is. Ninth is Light, and Tenth is Heat (anti-heat of course being Cold). Eleventh is Gravity (as one playtest, someone stole the moon with it...and the sun) and Twelveth is Time (just was confirmed, but after the hidden text about the numbers on the clock, I had a suspicion).
    We also know the first 8 energies represent a player's stats. Everything is made up of energy. Life represents XP, and Time doesn't go backwards, only slows or speeds.
    Messing with Energies drains energies from you.

    Alchemy and -ness's:Ness's are functions, Alchemy are more complicated or multiple functions in one. They are made up of different energies. These can be applied to "items" and function supersedes form. The rest may be subject to change.

    Cycles:There are 3 Cycles in Fourthland, though we do not know the meaning of them or significance: Grand Cycle, Mother Cycle, Father Cycle. (and maybe a Cycle Cycle)

    Shapes:There are 3 Tiers of Shapes. Players get to pick one from each tier. We know one from each tier at the moment. 1st Tier - Shaper, 2nd Tier - The Forge, 3rd Tier - Inventive

    Mechanics: The game is set in stages of "progressive disclosure" where one can choose a basic build of the game, or descend farther into madness the more stages added. It is playable by 2-6 players, with 4 as recommended.
    -----
    Things I feel would be good to put to question:
    Shapes (as mentioned before)
    The last 3 energies-3,7,8 (and maybe a more certain label to 5 and 6).
    What in the world is Tick, Tock, Click, Clack, Arc, Circle, Cycle, Grand Cycle, Mother, Father? (needs better phrasing).

    Also, we must phrase these questions wisely. I have experience in DMing wishes in D & D, and it would be advisable to find a question devoid of loopholes. Still, probability dictates we will flub up at least one of them. This is why I presented 3 subjects. Anyone else have some ideas or would like to edit or add to my information?

    (we also might want to question some of the hidden texts, such as the list of bonds in the first page)
    Last edited by TheWombatOfDoom; 2012-06-12 at 06:57 AM.
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    Indeed. I can help with the "legalese" work.

    Personally, I'd like to see a written text of how a play test went. Either that, or listen in on a Skype call of the players playing, if possible (though that's probably a blatant invasion of privacy... ).

    I'd place a priority not on the energies, but how they work. The cycles is also a good topic, imo.
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    Default Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

    Ok, so for the Cycles then...what do we want to know? Part of being specific is knowing enough details about them to do so, and we don't...so it's going to be tricky. What if it were something like: How do the Grand, Mother and Father Cycles relate to the Fourth? Or...What is the significance of the Grand, Mother and Father Cycles?
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