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    Default 20 levels, 20 classes

    As a challenge from a friend similar to one in pokemon he talked about (I can't remember the name of it), he wanted to make a character that had could only have one level per class. I thought it was a great idea, and I said I also wanted to do it, since I had seen it done with a caster ending up with a total of +0 BAB and lvl 20 casting. I couldn't remember the exact build I found in these forums, but I wanted to try that one, or one similar to it. I also wanted to do a non-casting version, such as one where casting isn't the main focus.

    So after lurking around and failing my google-fu checks, I ask the board to help me find creative ways of making characters that can have at maximum one level per class. In other words, there must be 20 classes over the entire 20 levels, or a different class each time I level up.
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    Default Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbear22 View Post
    As a challenge from a friend similar to one in pokemon he talked about (I can't remember the name of it), he wanted to make a character that had could only have one level per class. I thought it was a great idea, and I said I also wanted to do it, since I had seen it done with a caster ending up with a total of +0 BAB and lvl 20 casting. I couldn't remember the exact build I found in these forums, but I wanted to try that one, or one similar to it. I also wanted to do a non-casting version, such as one where casting isn't the main focus.

    So after lurking around and failing my google-fu checks, I ask the board to help me find creative ways of making characters that can have at maximum one level per class. In other words, there must be 20 classes over the entire 20 levels, or a different class each time I level up.
    Were talking base classes right? and they can't just be Cleric of Vecna, Cleric of Orcus, Cleric of random fish god (On a side note, does a Cleric of another god count as another Class? or do I get to smack my friend in the head with a Player's handbook for saying that?)
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    Default Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Calanon View Post
    Were talking base classes right? and they can't just be Cleric of Vecna, Cleric of Orcus, Cleric of random fish god (On a side note, does a Cleric of another god count as another Class? or do I get to smack my friend in the head with a Player's handbook for saying that?)
    It could be base classes or prestige classes. Clerics of several gods are several levels of Cleric, which I don't think is allowed normally liked that. Regardless, that would not be allowed because it is just several levels of cleric. You might want to smack your friend on the head with the PHB for saying that, but I'm still relatively new to the game. I would think it doesn't work how your friend thinks it works.
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    Cleric does not work that way.
    Last edited by Aegis013; 2012-02-27 at 02:37 AM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    The martial version would probably be easiest to make. Just take a lot of full BAB classes - focusing on the front-loaded ones, of course. And get Warblade 1 and Crusader 1 at strategic points, to cherry-pick the most useful maneuvers for your build.

    Incarnate or Totemist may also be useful dips, since your maximun essentia investment depends on your character level rather than your class level (you won't get to bind any melds, though). But for that to be useful you need some feats or other methods to gain extra essentia for your melds.

    Caster is significantly harder, since their features stack very poorly. Maybe there's a way to stack different PRCs in one long chain to advance the casting of a particular class, but it would probably be pretty tricky to meet the prerequisites of all of them (esp since many require a certain level of casting to enter), and in any case you probably couldn't start the chain much earlier than level 5.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    One rather odd build would be to go Factotum 1/Artificer 1/Rogue 1/etc. Focus on the Iajutsu skill and other forms of precision damage, while using UMD to get wraithstrike wands to let your attacks hit. I think there are enough precision damage classes to get something like 16d6, although getting into all of the prestige classes would be difficult.

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    Default Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    The two most effective build types would be either the ones with full BAB or full casting, assuming non-fractional BAB.
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Godskook View Post
    The two most effective build types would be either the ones with full BAB or full casting, assuming non-fractional BAB.
    How would the latter work? "All of the first level spells "?

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    Default Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    Something like this pretty much requires partial BAB to be functional. It'd have excellent saves though. It'd also benefit largely from having good point buy due to the nature of dips.

    Some Base Classes that especially come to mind are ToBx3, Fighter, Monk or Ninja (likely not both, and needs Wis), Whirling PounceBarb, Cleric, Totemist, Incarnate, Marshal (with Cha), Rogue (first level?), and Battledancer (with Cha) (12).

    Scout, Warlock, DFA, and Dragon Shaman (4) might be ok depending but also might not.

    PRCs will have to be carefully managed as the prereqs (especially feats) will add up quickly if left to grow rampant.

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    Default Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    How would the latter work? "All of the first level spells "?
    Usually it involves getting into Ur-Priest and 9 different PrCs that give +1 casting.

    (Sublime Chord can work too.)
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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbear22 View Post
    As a challenge from a friend similar to one in pokemon he talked about (I can't remember the name of it), he wanted to make a character that had could only have one level per class. I thought it was a great idea, and I said I also wanted to do it, since I had seen it done with a caster ending up with a total of +0 BAB and lvl 20 casting. I couldn't remember the exact build I found in these forums, but I wanted to try that one, or one similar to it. I also wanted to do a non-casting version, such as one where casting isn't the main focus.

    So after lurking around and failing my google-fu checks, I ask the board to help me find creative ways of making characters that can have at maximum one level per class. In other words, there must be 20 classes over the entire 20 levels, or a different class each time I level up.
    I'd try going with either something in a rogue-style or Fighter-style.
    Fighter-Style could go like this:
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    Ranger 1 (Track, Favored Enemy Arcanist)
    Barbarian 1 (Rage, Pounce, IUS)
    Fighter 1 (+2 ini, dex->"sneak", Cleave)
    Ex-Samurai 1 (EWP)
    Tainted Warrior 1 (Darkvision 60ft)
    Death's Chosen 1 (Endurance, divers)
    Exotic Weapon Master 1 (any trick)
    Bear Warrior 1 (better rage)
    Warshaper 1 (immunity to crits and sneaks)
    Primal Rager 1 (sacrifice time from rage for +str&con)
    Frenzied Berserker 1 (Frenzy, Diehard)
    Bloodhound 1 (swift tracker, mark)
    Warblade 1 (Aptitude, Stance, Maneuvers, int->reflex)

    lvl 1 feat & flaws: Iron Will, Power Attack, Nemesis [arcanists]
    lvl 3: Destructive Rage
    lvl 6: Intimidating Rage
    lvl 9: Extra Rage
    lvl 12: Extend Rage

    this is level 13 so far, BAB +12 and base saves fort +24/reflex +4/will +2. I'm not sure how exactly the bear form works, but a 3/day rage for 8+con rounds that can say i.e. it's only con-2 rounds but gives +14 str/+14 con instead of the normal +4/+4 sounds nice to me. I'm also not sure if you can do the same with your Frenzy (frenzy works for bear rage too, maybe this helps).

    Make sure to pick up Steadfast Determination so you can't fail your Fort save and get an epic Will save (especially in rage)
    Last edited by Tr011; 2012-02-27 at 03:50 AM.

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    Default Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    The caster one was indeed from what I remember a whole bunch of prestige classes that just advance other classes. I think it started with Warlock 1/ Rainbow Servant 1, and added a few others. I think I remember southern magician being of the feats, but beyond that I don't remember much.
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    Default Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbear22 View Post
    The caster one was indeed from what I remember a whole bunch of prestige classes that just advance other classes. I think it started with Warlock 1/ Rainbow Servant 1, and added a few others. I think I remember southern magician being of the feats, but beyond that I don't remember much.
    To qualify to become Rainbow Servant, a character must fulfill all the following criteria:

    Alignment: Any nonevil and nonchaotic.
    Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks.
    Spells: Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells.

    The problem is finding prestige classes that have really low level entry.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    Yes or no fractional BAB?

    If no fractional BAB, i'd try a fighter type. Just get a bunch of different full BAB classes.

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    Default Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Usually it involves getting into Ur-Priest and 9 different PrCs that give +1 casting.

    (Sublime Chord can work too.)
    Yes, although Sublime Chord is a bit trickier, as it requires that you have 3rd level spells already (Ur-Priest has no prerequisite on casting), and cannot be taken before 10th level anyway due to the skill points requirement.

    As for a build....

    Sorcerer-1/Factotum-1/Bard-1/Ninja-1/Monk-1/Ur-Priest-1/Divine Oracle-1/Geomancer-1 (Qualify with Precocious Apprentice on the Arcane side)/Seeker of the Misty Isle-1/Holt Warden-1 (Slipped from Lawful-Evil to Neutral-Evil somewhere)/Contemplative-1/Pragnostic Apostle-1/Mystic Theurge-1/Loremaster-1/Thaumaturgist-1/Other one-level-dips-5

    Gets you 9th level Divine casting, without overly excessive feat requirements.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    I'd say it'd be fun to attempt with a full caster, and probably not too difficult since so many early entry tricks are shared between classes.

    Definitely Wizard 1, Mindbender 1. I'm thinking either Versatile Generalist as the supreme early-entry trick, or [Spontaneous Caster] 1 on top of that to use Wizard for Versatile Spellcaster.

    I'm tempted to say Tainted Scholar 1 but that's automatic NI numbers, so I'd usually err away from that. Divine Oracle 1. Maybe Loremaster 1 if the spare feats are around. Rainbow Servant 1 doesn't get us much but it's easy to qualify for. Sacred Exorcist 1 likewise gives us a lot of utility, especially if we can take Alternative Spell Source - which'll get us into Seeker of the Misty Isle 1 and Geomancer 1. Fatespinner 1 is easy. MotAO 1 qualification is annoying, but it would help get Loremaster, so that remains a possibility. Wild Mage 1 has a feat tax, but with Practiced Spellcaster it's a very nice dip.

    Assuming we go sorcerer 1/wizard 1, that's 10 PrC levels, for 12 levels, costing 8-9 feats. So probably necropolitan w/severe taint for 2 bonus feats. 2 flaws. Only 3-4 feats from levels required. Wayfarer Guide is also easy on the feats, although the skill point cost is annoying, but let's assume we can meet that. 13 levels.

    If it's taken early enough the wizard CL can be kept up, Ultimate Magus 1 is alright (that'll cost another feat to do, though). Unseen Seer 1 is basically just casting and has annoying skill needs, but we'll keep it in mind. Paragnostic Apostle 1 is a good bet.

    That's up to 16 through the Complete books. Ultimately, dropping Seeker of the Misty Isle and going Body Hellbred with Dark Chaos Shuffle is probably the better choice for meeting all these feat prereqs. But yeah, this looks to be doable for a reasonably effective full caster.
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    RedSorcererGirl

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    Post Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_S View Post
    To qualify to become Rainbow Servant, a character must fulfill all the following criteria:
    Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks.
    Spells: Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells.
    The problem is finding prestige classes that have really low level entry.
    Use early entry tricks, namely at level 1 take the Feats: Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell (Human bonus feat) + Sanctum spell (Flaw feat). Use two level 1 slots to cast a level 1 spell Heightened to level 2, inside your sanctum so it's a level 3 spell being cast. Rainbow Servant is one of the few caster PrC's that can be taken starting at level 2, assuming early entry cheese is allowed.

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    Default Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    I have created this thread with a proposal very similar to your in the past. What they say (and was fun) might interest you.
    "Evil is so passŤ, I prefer to be thought of as just a genius."


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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruiser1 View Post
    Use early entry tricks, namely at level 1 take the Feats: Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell (Human bonus feat) + Sanctum spell (Flaw feat). Use two level 1 slots to cast a level 1 spell Heightened to level 2, inside your sanctum so it's a level 3 spell being cast. Rainbow Servant is one of the few caster PrC's that can be taken starting at level 2, assuming early entry cheese is allowed.
    Ok cool, I wasn't trying to ruin the OP's fun, I am genuinely curious if this could be done, I was just confused as to how as I don't know all the "early entry cheese"

    My group periodically does lvl 19 (we're also allowed 2 levels of template free of charge, so ECL 21, but nothing over Class level 19) death games and no matter how OP we try to make our characters, the one who wins is the one who usually has the most ridiculous and fun idea for a character as opposed to say the guy who rolled a sorcerer dread ghost with like 60 Charisma and was immune to most effects.

    ok ok, now that I've read the feats, is there some way to negate the negative effect of Sanctum Spell later on, because unless the entire campaign takes place in your lair, you'll almost exclusively be casting outside your sanctum and thus casting spells as if they were a level lower.

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    Default Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    Get 2 Flaws and take Earth Sense + Earth Spell instead.

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    Default Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    Naenhoon Illumian

    {table]Level|Class|Feats, abilities
    1|Wizard|Heighten Spell
    2|Cleric|Magic Domain, Planning Domain
    3|Rainbow Servant|Spell Focus, Skill Focus Knowledge(Religion) (From FGF)
    4|MysticTheurge
    5|MasterSpecialist
    6|Dweomerkeeper|Spell Focus Abjuration
    7|DivineOracle
    8|Mindbender
    9|Ruathar|Mindsight
    10|Fatespinner
    11|WayfarerGuide
    12|Loremaster|Magical Training, Versatile Spellcaster
    13|Ultimate Magus
    14|Geomancer
    15|Archmage|Practiced Spellcaster
    16|Unseen Seer
    17|Wild Mage
    18|Geometer|Greater Spell Focus Abjuration
    19|Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
    20|Paragnostic Apostle
    [/table]
    Last edited by dextercorvia; 2012-02-28 at 02:32 PM.
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    Regarding my Necrotic Apprentice trick:
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    This is brilliant.
    Regarding my Non-Epic Hidecarved Dragon:
    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Nicely done. Probably too cheesy for many tables, but I'd be inclined to allow it at mine, just for chutzpah.

    Have a cookie.
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    Default Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    Quote Originally Posted by dextercorvia View Post
    Naenhoon Illumian

    {table]Level|Class|Feats, abilities
    1|Wizard|Heighten Spell
    2|Cleric|Magic Domain, Planning Domain
    3|Rainbow Servant|Spell Focus, Skill Focus Knowledge(Religion) (From FGF)
    4|MysticTheurge
    5|MasterSpecialist
    6|Dweomerkeeper|Spell Focus Abjuration
    7|DivineOracle
    8|Mindbender
    9|Ruathar|Mindsight
    10|Fatespinner
    11|WayfarerGuide
    12|Loremaster|Magical Training, Versatile Spellcaster
    13|Ultimate Magus
    14|Geomancer
    15|Archmage|Practiced Spellcaster
    16|Unseen Seer
    17|Wild Mage
    18|Geometer|Greater Spell Focus Abjuration
    19|Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
    20|Paragnostic Apostle
    [/table]
    What if we did this but with Sha'ir instead of Wizard/Cleric? Monoclass Sha'ir with perfect or near perfect casting progression doesn't seem impossible since it can cast both arcane and divine spells. Just plug holes like Master Specialist with Tainted Sorcerer and Tainted Scholar.
    Last edited by Wings of Peace; 2012-02-28 at 02:56 PM.
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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    Master specialist comes to early for that, although, you can pick up options on the divine side, like Church Inquisitor, Contemplative, etc.

    I'm relying fairly heavily on the magic domain (Dweomerkeeper), Planning Domain (Loremaster), Scribe Spell from Wizard (Loremaster, Geometer), and Turn Undead fuels my Early Entry into Rainbow Servent, Mystic Theurge, etc.

    Master Specialist is also helping me into IotSV and Archmage.

    What you are saying should be doable, but it would be a very different build.
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    Regarding my Necrotic Apprentice trick:
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    This is brilliant.
    Regarding my Non-Epic Hidecarved Dragon:
    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Nicely done. Probably too cheesy for many tables, but I'd be inclined to allow it at mine, just for chutzpah.

    Have a cookie.
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    Check out the Versatile Domain Generalist.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    what school would your level 3 spell focus be in? anything other than abjuration? do you need that spell focus?

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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_S View Post
    what school would your level 3 spell focus be in? anything other than abjuration? do you need that spell focus?
    Whatever you specialized in. That is for Archmage and Master Specialist. If you are an Abjurer, then swap them and take whatever school you use with the most saves.
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    Regarding my Necrotic Apprentice trick:
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    This is brilliant.
    Regarding my Non-Epic Hidecarved Dragon:
    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Nicely done. Probably too cheesy for many tables, but I'd be inclined to allow it at mine, just for chutzpah.

    Have a cookie.
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    Check out the Versatile Domain Generalist.

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    RedSorcererGirl

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    Post Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_S View Post
    ok ok, now that I've read the feats, is there some way to negate the negative effect of Sanctum Spell later on, because unless the entire campaign takes place in your lair, you'll almost exclusively be casting outside your sanctum and thus casting spells as if they were a level lower.
    Sanctum Spell is a metamagic feat, which means you choose when to apply it to your spells. If you're outside your sanctum, just don't use it if you don't want your spells decreased by a level. Note having your spells decreased by a level can be advantageous, such as being able to use a less expensive Lesser Metamagic Rod to affect a normally 4th level spell. Sanctum Spell can also be useful because it's a +0 slot adjustment, which helps Arcane Thesis optimization.

    If you don't care about the Sanctum Spell feat, just retrain it (PHB2 method) or Dark Chaos shuffle it (if feat shuffle cheese is allowed) into a better feat, once you're able to cast higher level spells naturally. You can do the same with Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten spell if you're feat starved, although they can be nice to have on their own too.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    oh I didn't realize it was a metamagic spell, in that case rock on... (-1 to the spell level of all spells seemed like a bad, but now!)

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    Default Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruiser1 View Post
    Sanctum Spell is a metamagic feat, which means you choose when to apply it to your spells. If you're outside your sanctum, just don't use it if you don't want your spells decreased by a level. Note having your spells decreased by a level can be advantageous, such as being able to use a less expensive Lesser Metamagic Rod to affect a normally 4th level spell. Sanctum Spell can also be useful because it's a +0 slot adjustment, which helps Arcane Thesis optimization.
    You can also use Acorn Of Far Travel to always be considered inside your sanctuary.
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: 20 levels, 20 classes

    Quote Originally Posted by lorddrake View Post
    I have created this thread with a proposal very similar to your in the past. What they say (and was fun) might interest you.
    Ah yes this. In my build of this I made a character with level 9 spells. I'm sure you could then take Ur-priest and start taking PrC to advance it. If one of those levels is Mystic Theurge then you would have two full sets of casting. This just involves breaking WBL to be able to afford to pay someone to cast polymorph any object on you. Buy ladders and break them into poles to sell.

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