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  1. - Top - End - #1051
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    Default Re: Varsuvius' Kill-Count: Familicide By The Numbers

    Well, maybe. In Portugal it could be different...

    I just wonder how come a thread about Vaarsuvius and Familicide went on to discuss linguistics...
    Last edited by lorddrake; 2012-03-07 at 01:33 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #1052
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    Default Re: How many degrees of Consanguinity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tass View Post
    I understand how genetics work, but the thing is V said: "any creature that directly shares your bloodline is dead". http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html

    I don't interpret that as including cousins, but okay then, I accept that it is the only way to make it work. Cousins do share genes (blood) after all even if they are not in the same line.
    I think you may on the right track, there.

    The spell, as described, targets living creatures directly sharing a bloodline. As a bloodline is basically a set of ancestors, that would include siblings (who have the same parents and grandparents and all other ancestors). Descendents of those siblings would also count, as they have the target's bloodline as a subset of their own bloodlines.

    So if that were the case, and Girard's draconic grandfather happened to be a brother/nephew or descendent of such of the ABD, the entire Draketooth clan (including Penelope's child) would be part of the first "directly shares your bloodline" stage.

    Now, in order to account for V's claim of Penelope's death and the presumed death of the hypothetical Tarquin-Penelope offset, I'm going to make two more assumptions:
    • That it applies to the ancestors themselves as well (feasible since the ancestor's bloodlines are subsets of the target bloodline). This allows for ancestors of descendents (Penelope) to be affected during the "any creature directly related to those" stage.
    • That maternal and paternal bloodlines are considered independently. This allows for half-siblings (such as those with the same mother (again, Penelope) but different fathers (Tarquin, Orrin)) to be affected because they share a bloodline (maternal, in this case).


    With it working like that, cousins and more distant relatives of the target would be affected...but in the second stage, as descendents of living ancestors or as ancestors of living descendents. And so, V's casting of Familicide on ABD could cover wide swaths of black-dragon-kind, while only hitting small clusters outside black-dragon-kind (such as the Draketooth clan)...and with the two-step process the spell was described with.
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  3. - Top - End - #1053
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    Default Re: How many degrees of Consanguinity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alagaesian View Post
    Massive depopulation bomb? Not so much - I doubt there's that many people alive on even Earth right now, and we've had waaaay over 50 generations. The key here is that blood relatives start inbreeding massively once they spread out enough. This is compounded by the fact that this is a medieval setting where only the few rich/magical people would ever be able to move out of their town/village. Thus, Penelope's bloodline probably traces into whatever town she grew up in plus maybe a few scatterings of people who moved into other places and bred with other people.
    You are massively underestimating how much genes spread. You are also somewhat contradicting your self. It should have killed many more people than there are in the world, therefore there must have been inbreeding, therefore it should not have killed so many. Well of course there is a lot of inbreeding on this scale, there has to be. That doesn't mean that there is not also a massive spread, with any realistic model it would decimate most of the population on all continents, even assuming earthly iron age setting, and this is a setting with magical transport.

    Cast a thousand-years-limited familicide on a european in 1490 and you still decimate the native americans through the vikings.

    Look up estimations of most recent universal ancestor and be surprised.

    Quote Originally Posted by ManuelSacha View Post
    Also, yeah... if it only targets living people, it doesn't go back several generations, and there isn't even need to track back to the creation of the world (although point #1 is valid as well).
    So it only targets cousins if their grandparrents is alive? Sorry, that would make it direct up-down line, but then it requires four steps. As you say only two is implied by V.

    Quote Originally Posted by ManuelSacha View Post
    /thread, yes?
    No.
    Last edited by Tass; 2012-03-07 at 01:42 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #1054
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    Default Re: How many degrees of Consanguinity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tass View Post
    So it only targets cousins if their grandparrents is alive? Sorry, that would make it direct up-down line, but then it requires four steps. As you say only two is implied by V.
    There is a problem: Vaarsuvius does not really understand the spell he cast himself and only recently came to realize what the part he understood actually has as implications.
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    Default Re: Varsuvius' Kill-Count: Familicide By The Numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by Quild View Post
    How can he be blood relative to ABD since he's not one of her descendant.

    He could be a blood relative only if :
    - ABD was Girard's greatfather.
    - ABD's son was Girard greatfather.
    - Another of ABD's child (or grandchild) was Girard's greatfather.
    Never heard of blood relations such as "uncle", "brother", or "cousin" and similar?

    If the Draketooth ancestor was ABD's brother, or her cousin, then he would be her blood relative, and all his descendants would be her blood relatives. That includes Orrin, and Orrin's daughter.
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  6. - Top - End - #1056
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    Default Re: How many degrees of Consanguinity?

    according to the description V gave it's only two steps, BUT that still has a large reach, depending on how you define a step.

    my thoughts on how it worked is this.
    first of remember that dragons hatched with several siblings, so the black dragon v cast familicide on had several siblings in that ONE clutch of eggs, plus more siblings in every other cluthc EITHER parents had (depending on whether dragons mate for life in this world.

    second any decendents from these siblings are still in the first step.

    the second step comes when you go back up the tree. so all of the dragons siblings are dead, and all of their children are dead in the first step, and and all of the children's OTHER parents are dead, and all of those parents siblings and children are dead.

    so then for penelope to be kill in just two steps, the dragon pictured would just have to be any dragon in the first step, so that all the humans pictured are children, grandchildren, etc and therefore in the first step. this would make the dragon targeted by familicide girard's great-something-aunt. so then penelope's child by girard's descendent is still in that first step, and penelope is in the second step.

    this would mean any other children of penelope would have died, but NOT their other parent, so if penelope and tarquin had had a child, the child would have died but not tarquin (and not elan).

    tl;dr
    siblings share your blood, descendents share your blood
    therefore, descendents of siblings share your blood
    penelope's child was a descendent of a sibling (or other very direct relative like uncle/aunt) of the dragon targeted by familicide

  7. - Top - End - #1057
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    Default Re: How many degrees of Consanguinity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardcore View Post
    Still, there is no direct link between age and history. History is after all a human (and goblin) concept about recording what people have done in the past.
    Or to put it another way; history start with the advent of the first civilisation with interest in recording the present, and past, with accuracy. The Romans for example were less interested in precision in this area, and took liberties in their written works for various reason.

    Otoh, the rocks and lavaflows of the early years in a planets forming never bothered with such things as history:) Millions of years pass with not even a footnote in a book of stone.
    If this were the real world, I wouldn't bother using historical creation dates to begin with. To the best of our knowledge, OotSworld was created pretty much all at once, at least to the extent that there were clerics of all three pantheons within the first few years. It's also less than two thousand years old. In the absence of any information that contradicts this, I have no reason not to accept the information that HAS been provided.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    There is a problem: Vaarsuvius does not really understand the spell he cast himself and only recently came to realize what the part he understood actually has as implications.
    V understood the spell he cast. What he didn't realize is that it would spread to humans.

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    Default Re: How many degrees of Consanguinity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    There is a problem: Vaarsuvius does not really understand the spell he cast himself and only recently came to realize what the part he understood actually has as implications.
    I know. Yet people keep acting like the two steps is an established fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by gamingfreak10 View Post
    according to the description V gave it's only two steps, BUT that still has a large reach, depending on how you define a step.
    The problem is with any reasonable definition it either reaches to short, or WAY to far.
    Last edited by Tass; 2012-03-07 at 03:29 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #1059
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    Default Re: How many degrees of Consanguinity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tass View Post
    I know. Yet people keep acting like the two steps is an established fact.
    That's because it is. Twice now the spell has been described as "First it does X, then it does Y." We can argue about what X and Y really are, but the fact that it does X, then Y, then stops is really not disputable.

    And no, nothing about V's dialogue then or now indicates that he doesn't understand the spell he cast.

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    Default Re: How many degrees of Consanguinity?

    Quote Originally Posted by gamingfreak10 View Post
    siblings share your blood, descendents share your blood
    therefore, descendents of siblings share your blood
    Siblings share blood by virtue of having the same parents, therefore sharing half their genes.

    Cousins share blood by virtue of having two of the same grandparents, therefore sharing a quarter of their genes.

    None of them are in a direct line.

    Allowing it to jump to siblings but not to cousins seems rather arbitrary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    That's because it is. Twice now the spell has been described as "First it does X, then it does Y." We can argue about what X and Y really are, but the fact that it does X, then Y, then stops is really not disputable.

    And no, nothing about V's dialogue then or now indicates that he doesn't understand the spell he cast.
    Yeah well, even if V understood it fully the wording can technically still be interpreted as meaning X then Y and so on.

    But yes, I do agree that two steps seems the most likely.
    Last edited by Tass; 2012-03-07 at 03:37 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #1061
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    Default Re: Familicide Mega-Thread

    I really thought that last comic would end this debate, but it seems like there's still a lot of confusion. So here goes:

    Step 1: Kill everyone with the original target's blood. This is a simple yes/no effect: Is a creature (the secondary target) related by blood to the original target at all, in any way? If yes, kill it. If no, move on. Number of generations or percentage of blood or direction doesn't matter.

    Step 2: Kill everyone who shares blood with any of the people killed in Step 1. Think of it as killing everyone descended from (or siblings to) any and all still-living ancestors of each secondary target. So if Penelope had a grandfather on one side and a great-grandmother on the other side who were still alive, every person who could trace their blood back to either of those people would be dead, because Penelope's daughter carries both of their bloods. If a person can only trace their blood through (say) Penelope's already-dead great-great-great-grandfather, then they're safe. Thus cousins and second-cousins and the like are all dead, but more distant genetic relations are not. It is possible for some cousins to survive if all older generations were already dead, yes, but Vaarsuvius wasn't really likely to take the time to make that distinction while sobbing on a dungeon hallway floor.

    Now for some anticipated FAQs:

    That's not exactly what Vaarsvuius said when the spell was cast, though.
    First, Vaarsvuius is prone to poetic word choice and had no particular reason to include various exceptions or inclusions while in the middle of punishing the dragon. Second, as the author, I also had an interest in not necessarily giving away the twist that the Draketooths would be killed two years ahead of time (leading me to choose words that maybe implied one thing while allowing for another). In other words, don't try to parse the language too precisely.

    Wouldn't that spell kill everyone of the original target's species?
    In our world? Maybe. The OOTS world is not ours, though. It was created fully populated, even with black dragons. So there could be 100 original black dragons who (as V noted) breed slowly over the relatively-short span of time the current world has been in existence, leading to one-quarter of them being wiped out. If it had been cast on a human first, it may well have taken half or more of the population with it, depending on how many Original Humans there had been and how much interbreeding had occurred. Good thing that's not what happened, right?

    But if it worked like that, it would have [insert obscure effect proven with math]!
    Yeah, well, it didn't. Why? I don't know. But it didn't. I guess that makes me a crappy writer because I didn't think of whatever implication you just thought of, but there it is. I'm not a biologist or a mathematician. If it makes you feel better, just assume that all the laws of heredity and genetics work differently because It's Magic™.

    I hope this will end the endless debates. It's really quite simple, and if you're getting to a point where it seems utterly complicated or recursive or whatever, you're probably thinking about it more than I did.
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  12. - Top - End - #1062
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    Default Re: Familicide Mega-Thread

    Thank you Giant!

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    Default Re: Familicide Mega-Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post

    Step 2: Kill everyone who shares blood with any of the people killed in Step 1. Think of it as killing everyone descended from (or siblings to) any and all still-living ancestors of each secondary target. So if Penelope had a grandfather on one side and a great-grandmother on the other side who were still alive, every person who could trace their blood back to either of those people would be dead, because Penelope's daughter carries both of their bloods. If a person can only trace their blood through (say) Penelope's already-dead great-great-great-grandfather, then they're safe. Thus cousins and second-cousins and the like are all dead, but more distant genetic relations are not. It is possible for some cousins to survive if all older generations were already dead, yes, but Vaarsuvius wasn't really likely to take the time to make that distinction while sobbing on a dungeon hallway floor.
    Neat, clerification on the 100 thread question. And this means Elan and Nale were never in danger. Ok good to know.

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    Default Re: Familicide Mega-Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Think of it as killing everyone descended from (or siblings to) any and all still-living ancestors of each secondary target.
    Thank you so much! Now it feels like every part of what happened really makes good sense to me!

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    Default Re: Familicide Mega-Thread

    Well, the 'still-living' clarification certainly resolves all the issues of potential genocide. Thanks Giant!

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    Default Re: Familicide Mega-Thread

    Thank you, Giant!

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    Default Re: Familicide Mega-Thread

    So... even through all this clarification, a thought occurred to me. Hopefully this doesn't make a thousand more posts.

    Does the creature that the spell is cast on die as well?

    Oh, don't look at me like that. The most satisfyingly evil application of this spell is to be able to tell someone that you literally wiped out everyone related to them; you can't do that if the spell killed them, too (Okay, Contact other Plane, but where's the fun in that?).
    Last edited by John Cribati; 2012-03-07 at 04:52 PM.

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    Default Re: Familicide Mega-Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Herpestidae View Post
    So... even through all this clarification, a thought occurred to me. Hopefully this doesn't make a thousand more posts.

    Does the creature that the spell is cast on die as well?

    Oh, don't look at me like that. The most satisfyingly evil application of this spell is to be able to tell someone that you literally wiped out everyone related to them; you can't do that if the spell killed them, too (Okay, Contact other Plane, but where's the fun in that?).
    Well, there's always the method V employed. Granted, it's not the sort of thing just anyone can do (it appears to be a use of Create Greater Undead as a necromantic quasi-resurrection, which is really weird), but neither is Familicide.
    Last edited by Math_Mage; 2012-03-07 at 04:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Familicide Mega-Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Herpestidae View Post
    So... even through all this clarification, a thought occurred to me. Hopefully this doesn't make a thousand more posts.

    Does the creature that the spell is cast on die as well?

    Oh, don't look at me like that. The most satisfyingly evil application of this spell is to be able to tell someone that you literally wiped out everyone related to them; you can't do that if the spell killed them, too (Okay, Contact other Plane, but where's the fun in that?).
    I suspect it spares the target, so that they can suffer, as you suggested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    I really thought that last comic would end this debate, but it seems like there's still a lot of confusion.
    In our defense, it WAS totally clear to most of us from the last 2 comics. It's even a little embarassing that just leaving it at the mural wasn't enough! I thought it was pretty clear at that point. But the dialogue in the last comic was about as explicit as if you had shown a close up on an open spell book with Familicide written out.

    That's not why we argue endlessly on your forums. We do it because we love it. We love arguing over the minutiae and researching spell components. Things like, if Familicide wasn't quickened by the soul splice with the sorcerer, how many rounds would it have take to cast? Why? It's a George Mallory thing. Because it's there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smolder View Post
    Why? It's a George Mallory thing. Because it's there.
    I dispute that. Since we know how fast it's moving - it's a mountain, we therefore don't know it's there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herpestidae View Post
    So... even through all this clarification, a thought occurred to me. Hopefully this doesn't make a thousand more posts.

    Does the creature that the spell is cast on die as well?

    Oh, don't look at me like that. The most satisfyingly evil application of this spell is to be able to tell someone that you literally wiped out everyone related to them; you can't do that if the spell killed them, too (Okay, Contact other Plane, but where's the fun in that?).
    Target has to be an Undead created by the caster. There. Done.
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    Default Re: Familicide Mega-Thread

    <hums a happy tune as she starts to thump the ailing Familicide debate with a cricket bat and prepares it an acid bath>

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    Default Re: Familicide Mega-Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Step 2: Kill everyone who shares blood with any of the people killed in Step 1. Think of it as killing everyone descended from (or siblings to) any and all still-living ancestors of each secondary target.
    I think that was the extra detail that most of us needed to clear things up. Most of us were thinking it filtered back to non-living ancestors, and from them to others, etc. Thanks for clearing this up.
    Last edited by ThePhantasm; 2012-03-07 at 05:26 PM.
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    Default Re: Varsuvius' Kill-Count: Familicide By The Numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Miel View Post
    Never heard of blood relations such as "uncle", "brother", or "cousin" and similar?

    If the Draketooth ancestor was ABD's brother, or her cousin, then he would be her blood relative, and all his descendants would be her blood relatives. That includes Orrin, and Orrin's daughter.
    Well, that was were I seem to had it wrong. I don't consider that I share blood with my brother or my uncle. That's not how works genetics as far as I know, and I have a very poor sense of family.

    But I see now how the Giant intended it to work, and I'm cool with that. Next strip please!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quild View Post
    Well, that was were I seem to had it wrong. I don't consider that I share blood with my brother or my uncle. That's not how works genetics as far as I know, and I have a very poor sense of family.
    By what definition of genetics are you not related by blood to your brother?

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    biggrin Re: Familicide Mega-Thread

    Thanks Giant. Clearing up the confusion is very kind of you. Here's more questions!
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    Default Re: Familicide Mega-Thread

    Thank you for clearing the matter up for everyone.

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    Default Re: Familicide Mega-Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Herpestidae View Post
    Does the creature that the spell is cast on die as well?
    Well if step 1 wouldn't kill the original target, step 2 would (although presumably *undead* targets don't get killed by familicide - a possible loophole Haerta built into the spell if she liched herself before casting it (pre-lower planes existence), just in case she hit a distant relative with it?)

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    Default Re: Familicide Mega-Thread

    So, "sharing blood" means having a living common ancestor or descendant? It's gotta include common descendants for Penelope to have been hit at all, right? Am I understanding this correctly now?

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