League of Legends XXXI: I'll Start My Own Team! With TF! And Janna!

[Lix Lorn]

Okay, dammit Phreak. You're getting too self aware.

"of Course, I play Lulu as a Jungler."

See, I'm starting to get my own one of these, as...

I want to play Lulu solo top like Teemo. For reals, she seems like she'd make a good sorta tanky onhitter.

I play Lulu as an AS carry... with a couple of aura items. May try to fit a Trinity in. Only tried in a bots so far.

[Dogmantra]

LilyPichu strikes again

Well okay strikes like, five weeks ago, but this is wonderful.

[Lix Lorn]

LillyPichu is like
Best person
<3

[Neoseanster]

So, what're everyone's initial thoughts on Lulu? I'm about 2k IP off from picking her up.

[Mirrinus]

Was anyone else disappointed that Phreak said "Maokai ends up tanking tons of punishment" instead of "tons of damage"?

[Kairaven]

my initial impression of lulu is that she makes for an amazingly deadly kill lane support.

I forgot to check her ratios but if is decent I wouldn't doubt that she could also probably fill an AP damage role.

[fred dref]

Regarding Triforce on Nasus, I buy it less for the Sheen than for the movespeed and on-hit slow.

If you're doing really well, already have 40% CDR and don't need more tankyness and the enemy team has little armor, Bloodthirster is hilarious. Your Qs start to heal for so much it's absurd. Usually you'll want LW, though, as Nasus needs those Qs to be hurting dudes. You're still super tanky with Frozen Heart, FoN, Shurleia's and Triforce, especially when ulting.

EDIT: Although I should probably mention that I almost always get Warmog's instead of Shurelia's and rely on Blue Elixers to cap my CDR.

[Mirrinus]

Lulu's ratios don't really scream "AP carry" to me. Just .7 and .6, and with only 2 damaging spells with cooldowns of 7 and 10 seconds apiece (one of which is only single target), she doesn't seem like she'd be able to nuke people down that easily. Compare to Sion, who has similar issues, except his ratios are .9 and has higher base damage.

Of course, that won't stop people from trying to make mid Lulu work. I'm watching Guardsman Bob do it right now.

[Kairaven]

her utility is also strong enough that I wonder if you could go with an AD/AttkSpd build on her just for laugh. And possibly still be viable.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

All this Nasus talk made go take him out for a couple of games. And I was reminded whay I don't play him. My lane opponent knows to go super-agressive and the jungler camps my lane and my team still loses all lanes. GG.

LilyPichu strikes again

That made me feel much better

[toasty]

The Janna nerf is idiotic. Janna being picked so heavily at Hanover was more a sign of every other support having been nerfed into mediocrity than Janna herself being overpowered. She does some things very well (protect her carry and poke), but is very bad at others (providing sustain, setting up kills). It seems like Riot just has no clue what they want to do with the support role.

Hopefully Lulu is at least good. Her kit looks pretty fun.

I'm not sure if I agree. While the Sona nerfs were painful and probably overboard, and Taric will probably forever remain that champion that just doesn't have it at the very top level of competative play, you are underestimating the power of certain combos such as Nunu/Kog and Graves/Soraka, both of which are very powerful. Alistair is also still a very strong champion with almost as much CC as Janna and certainly more tank. Ali's roaming potential is also very important given M5s continuous aggressive early game playstyle.

Having said that, I do think given Riot's patch history it really has no idea how to design both AD carries (MF, Ashe, Graves, Corki, Sivir and Vayne have all been hilariously overused/overpowered at different times) and Supports (Taric rework, Janna nerfs, Morgana nerfs, Orianna nerfs, Karma is useless, Soraka nerfs, Kalye too, though that is other problems).

Any advice for someone only level 15?

Pick a hero you like (it doesn't have to be good, just so much as you enjoy it and its not a hero most people consider worthless and/or it gets banned all the time in draft mode if you fancy draft) and play it all the time. If its a hero that can jungle learn how to jungle with it, but realize that most jungle heroes make good laners as well (udyr, GP, Riven, Lee Sin, etc).

The reason you pick 1 hero is that there are a lot of things that go into lane matchups and understanding your hero. LoL isn't very deep but playing only 1-2 heroes constantly will very much help you improve.

Learn to last hit as well. Try to achieve 100 CS by 10-15 minutes and if you play highly farm dependent heroes like Mages and AD carries then you should try to be constantly farming.

Learn ward locations and get used to buying wards. Everyone eventually dies because they don't have map awareness or didn't ward at the right time. Just learn to ward. Wards are cheap!

Learn what people expect of you as your champion of choice but feel free to experiment. You wanna play Vayne solo top? Go for it! If your team will let you. Think Wits end on GP is a good idea? Try it out! Realize that certain builds or actions might earn you some ire, but if you are convinced its a good idea try it out! If you are unsure ask someone who is better than you. There are multiple people that visit this thread that are 1400-1900 elo and are very willing to help new players. Some of us don't mind playing with them either (I'm not one of them. )

[Ivellius]

Lulu's ratios don't really scream "AP carry" to me. Just .7 and .6, and with only 2 damaging spells with cooldowns of 7 and 10 seconds apiece (one of which is only single target), she doesn't seem like she'd be able to nuke people down that easily. Compare to Sion, who has similar issues, except his ratios are .9 and has higher base damage.

Of course, that won't stop people from trying to make mid Lulu work. I'm watching Guardsman Bob do it right now.

her utility is also strong enough that I wonder if you could go with an AD/AttkSpd build on her just for laugh. And possibly still be viable.

And having played a couple of games with her as an AP mid, G Bob is now doing the on-hit build. Started Phage -> Wit's End -> Mallet. So far it's been pretty much his usual play (take some early deaths, play for the long run, make a weird turn-around mid-game and take control).

Edit: Now he has a Bloodrazor. I'm going to say this build shouldn't be working as well as it seems to be. (It's not optimal, but he's doing better than anyone else on his team.)

[Eldariel]

I'Having said that, I do think given Riot's patch history it really has no idea how to design both AD carries (MF, Ashe, Graves, Corki, Sivir and Vayne have all been hilariously overused/overpowered at different times) and Supports (Taric rework, Janna nerfs, Morgana nerfs, Orianna nerfs, Karma is useless, Soraka nerfs, Kalye too, though that is other problems).

Hey, there's nothing wrong with Karma or Kayle. Though neither are supports. Kayle is an AD carry-type that can sololane or duolane (Kayle/Nunu is absurd) and Karma is an AP mid with some great utility for certain sustain line-ups (she's like Vladimir, except for the whole team).

[Ivellius]

I'd argue that Karma can function as a support (perhaps not as well as some others because she really likes having AP, but her passive helps a bit with that), but you're right that Kayle just isn't. Her W is probably the worst ability in the game right now; I hate spending the mana on it.

[Mirrinus]

"I name that build the Machine Gunner. Eight attacks per second, hehe."
~ Guardsman Bob

I have to admit, there's just something about AS Lulu that's so satisfying. She'd fit right in to Touhou Project or something.

[Eldariel]

I'd argue that Karma can function as a support (perhaps not as well as some others because she really likes having AP, but her passive helps a bit with that), but you're right that Kayle just isn't. Her W is probably the worst ability in the game right now; I hate spending the mana on it.

Karma can function as a support but given the only reason you'd pick her is 'cause she has damage and shields/heal in AOE on both of her abilities and they both scale by AP and she gets extra HP in combat, it'd be really stupid to do so.

Karma support compared to any support with hard CC (Karma only has a slow/haste, which also deals damage btw) or real heals/shields is going to look really stupid. Karma's for walking the edge; the less health targets have, the more she heals and the less health she has, the more she hurts and the more she shields. For those numbers to be relevant she needs to be sololane farmed AP.


She also has special synergy with any AP-scaling items like Deathcap, Will, Voidstaff, DFG & Lichbane 'cause she can inherently generate up to 100 extra AP for the items so it's twice the waste to not build AP on her.

[Tanuki Tales]

So.

I just played Lulu for the first time in a bot match and I discover that I'm baaad at being a support.

I got 1 kill and 21 CS.

[Neoseanster]

From what I've seen, Karma functions much better as a support for a melee character with a gap closer than she does for a ranged carry.

Most of her utility goes to waste when your carry's just farming and occasionally trading shots, but when you have someone like Jarvan IV or Pantheon or Fiora? They can just leap into melee range with the squishy enemy champion, close enough that you can do damage with a mantra'd Soul Shield, able to easily stick to them with Spirit Bond's speed and normally wasted slow, and close enough that both your partner and the enemy can be hit with the same mantra'd Heavenly Wave.

Of course, it means you need to send your AD carry to another lane instead, but someone like Caitlyn is well capable of holding her own against most common top lanes.

[Dogmantra]

well then I just found out that camera lock is broken now and I am irritated


the old criticism of "but where's your map awareness" is now pretty much valid, since clicking and holding on the minimap unlocks the camera, rather than snapping back when you let go, I'm pretty pissed off about this and I don't have any idea why it was changed

[Winthur]

well then I just found out that camera lock is broken now and I am irritated


the old criticism of "but where's your map awareness" is now pretty much valid, since clicking and holding on the minimap unlocks the camera, rather than snapping back when you let go, I'm pretty pissed off about this and I don't have any idea why it was changed

There are people playing with camera lock

O_o

[Eldariel]

From what I've seen, Karma functions much better as a support for a melee character with a gap closer than she does for a ranged carry.

Most of her utility goes to waste when your carry's just farming and occasionally trading shots, but when you have someone like Jarvan IV or Pantheon or Fiora? They can just leap into melee range with the squishy enemy champion, close enough that you can do damage with a mantra'd Soul Shield, able to easily stick to them with Spirit Bond's speed and normally wasted slow, and close enough that both your partner and the enemy can be hit with the same mantra'd Heavenly Wave.

Eh, I'd much rather have Leona, Alistar or Blitzcrank as the support on that lane. Fact is that Karma + no AP = useless midgame Karma, while Karma + AP = invulnerable team + Karma.

[Neoseanster]

Eh, I'd much rather have Leona, Alistar or Blitzcrank as the support on that lane. Fact is that Karma + no AP = useless midgame Karma, while Karma + AP = invulnerable team + Karma.

Yeah, it's still not really ideal I'd think. But it seems to work much better than she does as a support otherwise, and you can usually manage to grab some AP after your GP/10 anyway, even if you don't have the farm a solo lane would. Her base damages are high enough to easily farm a wave or two in an empty lane once in a while, after your AD backs or between team fights or something.

Just to cite my own purely anecdotal evidence on it...

So, my brother's been experimenting with Karma in 1700 elo ranked games.

Spoiler

Show

Most of the games were duo queued supporting a Fiora at bottom. The only time they lost their lane was against a Soraka/Corki; the one actual lost game was when a teammate thought they were trolling, grabbed Fiora themselves, went top, and ended up feeding massively. One of them was as solo mid, also a win.

[toasty]

There are people playing with camera lock

O_o

DOGMANTRA IS THE NEW DYRUS

[Eldariel]

Yeah, it's still not really ideal I'd think. But it seems to work much better than she does as a support otherwise, and you can usually manage to grab some AP after your GP/10 anyway, even if you don't have the farm a solo lane would. Her base damages are high enough to easily farm a wave or two in an empty lane once in a while, after your AD backs or between team fights or something.

It can definitely work; I'm just saying I can't help but imagine the other options could've performed at least equally well. Fact is that a well-executed kill lane is going to win basically all solo queue bots since two randoms vs. two coordinated players playing a lane the randoms are not familiar with is going to be a safe victory for the two coordinated players; and if you don't get fed, Karma is going to be kinda sad midgame compared to the alternatives.

That's really the primary problem I have with Support Karma; unlike with most supports, you need to win your lane hard to get strong, much like with support Lux (though she at least comes with CC).

[Winthur]

DOGMANTRA IS THE NEW DYRUS

I thought he just holds Space o_O

If not, my face: O____________________________O

[Lix Lorn]

her utility is also strong enough that I wonder if you could go with an AD/AttkSpd build on her just for laugh. And possibly still be viable.

I have been doing in bots
Will be trying for real after dinner ^^

[Zen Master]

Playing support-Shen in bot lane with any strong carry, I expect it to go very well indeed, unless the opposition is something horrible such as a good Kog/Nunu lane.

Last game, I laned with Vayne, and it went horribly poorly. Like all sorts of embarassingly bad. The opposition was GP/Noct. Not, frankly, what I'd consider scary - I would be scared of a double-ranged lane, for instance.

But I wonder what went wrong. My expectation is to win the first fight with a kill, or two kills at the expense of me dying. Instead, we gave away something on the order of nine deaths for none.

So I'm thinking maybe I'm too aggressive, and Vayne is really weak early game? Frankly I simply wouldn't know, I don't have her and have laned with her maybe twice before.

Otherwise I just underestimate how strong GP and Nocturne are level 1-2-ish.

Any insights?

[Mirrinus]

Vayne is relatively weak even for an AD carry in the early game. She's usually paired with a sustain champ that can babysit her until she gets to her hyper-carry late game status.

[Eldariel]

So I'm thinking maybe I'm too aggressive, and Vayne is really weak early game? Frankly I simply wouldn't know, I don't have her and have laned with her maybe twice before.

Otherwise I just underestimate how strong GP and Nocturne are level 1-2-ish.

Any insights?

GP is amazingly strong early. Nocturne has insane damage if you let him get to you. Vayne is indeed kinda weakish early; ripping up bruisers is what she does but she can't just burst them down anymore. She can solo against them fine but she'll take a while.

[toasty]

Playing support-Shen in bot lane with any strong carry, I expect it to go very well indeed, unless the opposition is something horrible such as a good Kog/Nunu lane.

Last game, I laned with Vayne, and it went horribly poorly. Like all sorts of embarassingly bad. The opposition was GP/Noct. Not, frankly, what I'd consider scary - I would be scared of a double-ranged lane, for instance.

But I wonder what went wrong. My expectation is to win the first fight with a kill, or two kills at the expense of me dying. Instead, we gave away something on the order of nine deaths for none.

So I'm thinking maybe I'm too aggressive, and Vayne is really weak early game? Frankly I simply wouldn't know, I don't have her and have laned with her maybe twice before.

Otherwise I just underestimate how strong GP and Nocturne are level 1-2-ish.

Any insights?

Nocturne and GP have some of the strongest level 1s for Tankydps. They can basically walk up to you and kill you if they both star boots. Your best bet would have been to run away and try and keep them from harassing you down/engaging until Vayne gets some items and can just destroy them.