Pathfinder Grab Bag Competition Chat Thread

[4th number]

Troll Bräu:

1. How does Second Skin interact with the Armor Training class feature of the Fighter and similar abilities? Made it a small scaling numerical reduction/increase (like Armor Training) and noted specifically that it stacks with Armor Training and similar (which I think is just Hellknight, as far as Paizo stuff). The donning time decrease stays the same.
2. I admit that I don't see the Aid Another action used much in any game I've played, but why is the bonus only increased by +1 instead of +2 for creatures two or more age categories younger? Now that I think about it, almost every character is going to be 2 age categories lower anyway, so I just made it a flat +2 bonus if they're 1 or more age categories lower. Also specified that it includes Aid Another in combat and while making skill checks, since skill checks are really the only place I've seen Aid Another used. It's quite a good ability-- a winter warrior should be handing out +4 bonuses to his party like candy. Specified that the additional +2 is a morale bonus.
3. The only issue I see with My Old Friend is the fact that this is a Pathfinder only competition and Tome of Battle and maneuvers by extension are Dungeons and Dragons material. Oh, of course. Replaced it with Sneak Attack as a rogue.
4. How does Veteran's Insight interact with other abilities that add Wisdom or Intelligence to attack rolls. Specified that Veteran's Insight and Seen it All provide insight bonuses, which stack with everything but other insight bonuses.
5. Instant Wisdom should give a save, not just be a combat maneuver. Also, why does it apply to Outsiders (who are generally ageless), but not Dragons, Oozes, Plants or Vermin? I'll work on it.
6. Only the Fifth level is light, at least until you've come up with a new capstone.

I'll modify the 4th and 5th level abilities from here, but I'm pretty happy with the crunch in general.

It actually makes quite a decent dip if you're ever making a front-line senior citizen but don't have 5 levels free in the build-- full BaB, two good saves, either +4 or +10(!) to ability scores, the armor stuff, and you become the best flanking buddy ever.

[Tanuki Tales]

@4th:

I definitely do look forward to your reworks. Otherwise, this prestige class is turning out pretty nicely done. I just hope you'll have some actual competition before the month is out. I know Milo is working on his soon, but that'd still only be two entries.

[Tanuki Tales]

And all the trophies are finished and have been mailed to their recipients!

Once again, congratulations to everyone who placed in the last round!

[Tanuki Tales]

Well, since there was no Apocalypse, I guess no one has that convenient excuse for not working on their entries.



I'll probably give the contest thread another bump in a few days to let folks know we exist and I hope that we'll have at least 3 complete entries before the deadline.

[Midwoka]

Well, since there was no Apocalypse, I guess no one has that convenient excuse for not working on their entries.

But I do have the excuse of it being my birthday. Today. Right now.

[Tanuki Tales]

But I do have the excuse of it being my birthday. Today. Right now.

Well, Happy Birthday then!

[Razanir]

Posted my entry: the Defender of the North. It's based off Santa and St. Nicholas of Myra, his real-life version. I hope that's not against the rules, but St. Nick's really only the reason the Defender's an unarmed paladin. Anyway, feel free to comment on it here

[Midwoka]

One thing I noticed was that it mentions "ice damage" a few times, which should probably be "cold damage"

[Razanir]

One thing I noticed was that it mentions "ice damage" a few times, which should probably be "cold damage"

Fixed. And does it otherwise seem balanced? In short, it's supposed to be an ice-themed unarmed paladin

[Midwoka]

It looks mostly balanced to me, but that's not really my strong suit.

I'll say that I think it could use some cold resistance (which could pad levels 2 and 4 with another ability :) ) and Survival as a class skill, since they need to live alone in tundra. Brr.

[Tanuki Tales]

Here's my run-down on Defender of the North!

Nothing really needs to be fixed grammatically from what I saw, so let's move on.

• This Prestige class is....kind of an odd duck to say the least.
  
  • Your theme is a paladin who traveled to the northern lands and gained divine insight, but nothing it grants really feels like that. And it doesn't really explain why the Paladin goes there in the first place.
  • The theme of the abilities feels more like something that would make a Barbarian or Ranger prestige class.
  • The class requires Improved Unarmed Strike and gives a progression for it, but there's no apparent reason for this.
• It's...a little boring to be brutally honest. It gives ice damage, natural armor and then cold immunity as the big things, with some small bells and whistles for being in a cold environment. Cutting to the chase, who do you envision taking levels in this prestige class and why?
• Balance wise, this is fine. Paladins are the only ones who get in and nothing it gives really shoots up the power or versatility of Paladins or any other class that gets Smite Evil.

And that's about it. Glad to see another new face in the contest!

[Razanir]

This Prestige class is....kind of an odd duck to say the least.

Yeah... In retrospect, it was an odd idea. The inspiration was St. Nick (I mean the real-life one, not Santa). The story I know about him is that he punched a heretic at a big church council. From there, I added the ice theme to go with the secular version of Santa.

Your theme is a paladin who traveled to the northern lands and gained divine insight, but nothing it grants really feels like that. And it doesn't really explain why the Paladin goes there in the first place.

See above. Any advice for the fluff?

The theme of the abilities feels more like something that would make a Barbarian or Ranger prestige class.

Okay. I might remove Smite Evil as a prerequisite and turn it into a class ability. It would still be based off the Paladin, and Paladin levels would still stack, but a level of Paladin wouldn't be required

The class requires Improved Unarmed Strike and gives a progression for it, but there's no apparent reason for this.

See my first comment. I took the fact that the real-life version of Santa punched out heretics and I ran with it. I suppose that I could explain it better fluff-wise, though

It's...a little boring to be brutally honest. It gives ice damage, natural armor and then cold immunity as the big things, with some small bells and whistles for being in a cold environment. Cutting to the chase, who do you envision taking levels in this prestige class and why?

Hmm... What if I added adamantine, cold iron and silver fists? Also, what if I added scaling damage reduction at the end? Like DR (Character level)/-

Balance wise, this is fine. Paladins are the only ones who get in and nothing it gives really shoots up the power or versatility of Paladins or any other class that gets Smite Evil.

Is it safe balance-wise if I turn Smite Evil into a class ability? I'm new to homebrewing classes.

Again, I know it was an odd idea for a class, the unarmed ice-themed paladin, but I ran with it

[Tanuki Tales]

• The bits about Saint Nicholas of Myra are honestly news to me. I've never heard of any of that and, to be honest, I would think that there is much more to his history that one could base a PrC on (such as his generous nature that lead to the evolution of the Santa Claus icon or the variety of things he is a patron saint over).
• It's pretty safe to give Smite Evil as a class feature and to have levels in this class stack with Paladin. Paladin is not an amazing class by any stretch and even Pathfinder's rendition of it would require a debate for one to call it mechanically and objectionably "good". The Chevalier PrC that Paizo itself created gives Smite Evil as a class feature for example.

And Merry Christmas to everyone who celebrates it!

[Razanir]

[list][*]The bits about Saint Nicholas of Myra are honestly news to me. I've never heard of any of that and, to be honest, I would think that there is much more to his history that one could base a PrC on (such as his generous nature that lead to the evolution of the Santa Claus icon or the variety of things he is a patron saint over).

I'll take that as an "It's legal"

Anyway, I did a bit of an overhaul of the Defender. I still need to rework the fluff, though. I merged Icy Fist and Aligned Fist into the same ability and made it more appealing. Now his fists are always magic weapons with frost. I also added an ability to allow for gift giving.

[Tanuki Tales]

Here's another run-down on the Defender of the North!

• I wonder if, as a roleplaying requirement, the class should have some kind of act of charity and generosity as a requirement to enter (such as how Saint Nicholas became the Patron Saint of "Women of Questionable Virtues").
• Smite Evil, as it is now, is kind of weak by itself. A Paladin entering this class is fine since they'll be counted as a level 10 Paladin for it. But non-Paladins kind of get screwed, only ever getting SE of a 5th level Paladin. The Chevalier, on the other hand, bases it's SE off the total levels of the character.
• Divine Bond falls into the same trap; it's great for Paladin/Defender of the Norths, but not other entries. I don't think it'd be too unbalanced to have this work off their total character levels as well (+5 bonus to a weapon for 20 minutes a day? Nah). Also, why is it limited to only handing out the weapon property? Getting a flying, magic caribou would be neat.
• Gift Giving could use some clarifications. As it is, you don't need the 4th level ability it gives since nothing in the 2nd level bit prevents you from doing just that (as long as you have enough gold in your pool). The ability also doesn't prevent the creation of Wondrous Items, Alchemical gear, exotic materials, etc. You'll need to be really specific on the limits of this ability so it doesn't become broken (since everything it makes, except weapons, are permanent).
• Icy Wind doesn't stack with Cleric levels?
• Aligned Fists is kind of meh as a class ability. Why is it there and not just rolled into Enchanted Fist?
• Man of Ice is still kind of meh as well. It just doesn't feel like a capstone to me. Maybe something that allows the conjuring of snowstorms for varying uses or the animation of snow constructs that obey the Defender or some kind of time dilation effect/haste effect or something like any of that.

All in all though, I do like where this rewrite is going. It does feel more together and on track than the last version of it and I could see people being interested in taking levels in it.

[Razanir]

I wonder if, as a roleplaying requirement, the class should have some kind of act of charity and generosity as a requirement to enter (such as how Saint Nicholas became the Patron Saint of "Women of Questionable Virtues").

I'll think about it

Smite Evil, as it is now, is kind of weak by itself. A Paladin entering this class is fine since they'll be counted as a level 10 Paladin for it. But non-Paladins kind of get screwed, only ever getting SE of a 5th level Paladin. The Chevalier, on the other hand, bases it's SE off the total levels of the character.

Good idea.

Divine Bond falls into the same trap; it's great for Paladin/Defender of the Norths, but not other entries. I don't think it'd be too unbalanced to have this work off their total character levels as well (+5 bonus to a weapon for 20 minutes a day? Nah). Also, why is it limited to only handing out the weapon property? Getting a flying, magic caribou would be neat.

Fair enough.

Gift Giving could use some clarifications. As it is, you don't need the 4th level ability it gives since nothing in the 2nd level bit prevents you from doing just that (as long as you have enough gold in your pool). The ability also doesn't prevent the creation of Wondrous Items, Alchemical gear, exotic materials, etc. You'll need to be really specific on the limits of this ability so it doesn't become broken (since everything it makes, except weapons, are permanent).

I'll work on it. But are the spending limits fine, at least?

Icy Wind doesn't stack with Cleric levels?

New rule for the class: If a class ability is identical to one from a base class (Divine Bond, Smite Evil, Icy Wind), then it uses character levels

Aligned Fists is kind of meh as a class ability. Why is it there and not just rolled into Enchanted Fist?

Vestigial. It already was; I just forgot to delete it

Man of Ice is still kind of meh as well. It just doesn't feel like a capstone to me. Maybe something that allows the conjuring of snowstorms for varying uses or the animation of snow constructs that obey the Defender or some kind of time dilation effect/haste effect or something like any of that.

Again, I'll work on it. I have a few days yet

All in all though, I do like where this rewrite is going. It does feel more together and on track than the last version of it and I could see people being interested in taking levels in it.

Thanks. And if you hadn't guessed, this is actually my first time homebrewing a class

[Milo v3]

I didn't have any motive to continue to Bleak Nemesis. So I've removed it.

And replaced it with the now finished Sainesti which are based on christmas elves with a darker feel.

Note: I'll also planning on adding the Kindred's stats to the competition which will be a warrior race with time manipulation powers which are the masters of my christmas elves.

EDIT: On second thought, I probably wont have time to add it.

[Tanuki Tales]

I'll work on it. But are the spending limits fine, at least?

They look fine.

New rule for the class: If a class ability is identical to one from a base class (Divine Bond, Smite Evil, Icy Wind), then it uses character levels

Alrighty.

Thanks. And if you hadn't guessed, this is actually my first time homebrewing a class

You did mention it and I think you're doing fine!

[Tanuki Tales]

Now for a run down on the Sainesti!

Fluff

• You have one e too many in the word "being" in the first sentence.

Physical Description
[list][*]I think you meant "with pointed" and not "which pointed".[/b]

Society

• I most definitely think you meant "skilled" and not "killed".

Relations

• "Craftsmanship" is one word, not two.

That's it for grammar, as far as I can see.

• Why are Guardians at the bottom of the caste system? Usually the gatherers are the bottom and the warriors near the top, with craftsmen either being above or below warriors generally.
• Why do they have a racial swim speed by the by?
• Do you mind explaining how exactly Blood of the Tundra works in more detail? Do Ice weapons ever melt and how hard are they to destroy? Can these weapons be made masterwork and enchanted? Can they only use ice in place of steel/iron; like, can they not take snow and weave it like it was silk?
• I personally can't remember a wholly Fey race having a maximum age.

And that's it. I really do like these guys you've made and I hope one day to see the Kindred statted up (though right now I'm imagining them as red-pelted ape men because of Aqua Teen Hunger Force ).

[Milo v3]

Now for a run down on the Sainesti!
[*]Why are Guardians at the bottom of the caste system? Usually the gatherers are the bottom and the warriors near the top, with craftsmen either being above or below warriors generally.

Kindred are a mainly warrior race, making Guardians some what redundant. Also the Kindred want to make sure the Sainesti don't rise up so they forced the Guardians to be the lowest caste in society, reducing the chance of rebelion.

[*]Why do they have a racial swim speed by the by?

In the glacial regions, you need to know how to swim or you will likely fall in and drown. And even if you now how you need to be able to get out of the water fast enough to not be frozen to death. Also they are fey of the glaciers and snow, glaciers and snow are made of water, water fey get swim speeds.

[*]Do you mind explaining how exactly Blood of the Tundra works in more detail? Do Ice weapons ever melt and how hard are they to destroy? Can these weapons be made masterwork and enchanted? Can they only use ice in place of steel/iron; like, can they not take snow and weave it like it was silk?

I'll add some details to the entry.

[*]I personally can't remember a wholly Fey race having a maximum age.[/list]

If the Kindred kill a rebeling Sainesti every now and then, the Sainesti would need at least a human-like rate of reproduction. But that and huge lifespans would cause an immense number of Sainesti and overpopulation. Thus, they need to be non-immortal.

And that's it. I really do like these guys you've made and I hope one day to see the Kindred statted up (though right now I'm imagining them as red-pelted ape men because of Aqua Teen Hunger Force ).

I'll try and get stats for them.

[Razanir]

Okay. Mine should be ready now. I added limits to Gift Giving and also some fluff. The fluff is just a story written in everyone's favorite font–Comic Sans! But hey, at least I mentioned Sahn'ta Cl'aa's

[Milo v3]

Okay, I've now added in an Alternate Feature for Guardians, a racial feat, and rules for Ice Crafting.

[4th number]

Winter Warrior is all done, but I'd appreciate final critiques. Recent changes include:

• Fluff added. Pretty generic, but this isn't setting-specific or anything.
• Added a modest Knowledge requirement. Seems reasonable, given all the insight bonuses, and heck-- everyone should know something about something by the time they're old and gray.
• Noted that Hey, Rookie normally results in a +4 total bonus.
• Made it so you can't use the My Old Friend option E) more than once, and you can now choose up to 2 weapon abilities to make up your max total, since there aren't really many +5 abilities for high-level characters to choose.
• Complete rewrite of the 4th level debuff. Need input on mechanics and appropriate DCs.
• Re-introduced the capstone (though 5th level is quite good even without it). It now has a very long name and doesn't necessarily kill you if you do it, but I hope the penalty afterwards is enough to make sure that it really gets used on BBEG fights.

Wow, it feels good to be done with my first PrC. Well, barring final revisions and art permissions, anyway.

[Tanuki Tales]

Let's start off the run downs with the Defender of the North!

• I see what you tried to do with the Paladin Abilities class feature, but I'm not sure that by RAW it works that way. Anyone else mind weighing in if they know? For example, Smite Evil gives it as a Paladin of their Defender level and Paladin Abilities looks like it tries to then translate that into total Character level.
• Gift Giving looks much better than it used to. Looking at it now though, I wonder if "Alchemical items" should be replaced with "Trade Goods (Can not weight more than X lbs)". That way a Defender of the North could "gift" thieves tools for disarming a trap or "gift" a lantern for traversing the dark, but not pull a full boat or carriage out of thin air.

All in all, this class has really polished up nicely. I'd just give it another once over since you've missed some punctuation here and there. Otherwise, great job!



Next up: Sainesti!

In the glacial regions, you need to know how to swim or you will likely fall in and drown. And even if you now how you need to be able to get out of the water fast enough to not be frozen to death. Also they are fey of the glaciers and snow, glaciers and snow are made of water, water fey get swim speeds.

Maybe drop the swim speed entirely, give Cold Resistance ~1-5 and a racial bonus to Swim checks?

If the Kindred kill a rebeling Sainesti every now and then, the Sainesti would need at least a human-like rate of reproduction. But that and huge lifespans would cause an immense number of Sainesti and overpopulation. Thus, they need to be non-immortal.

Well, why not make them like Gnomes and just be humanoid descendants of Fey? That way you can give them Fey Blood, which opens up room since you don't need to balance for the Fey main type any longer.

• The Snow Crafting feat is honestly pretty weak. Why not change it so that they can just replace snow and ice for any material when crafting? That way they can make fleets of ice ships or snowflake windows or other such things?

Other than all that, these guys look good to go!



Finally: The Winter Warrior!

• I'd increase the Knowledge requirement to 8 ranks, to match the BaB. It's an easy pittance to get 4 ranks in a skill by 8 HD.
• Impart Wisdom looks fine, but how does it affect creatures that also age similar to True Dragons (I'm not aware of any existing in Pathfinder as of yet, but devil's advocate and all that)? But maybe rename it to something like "Weight of Ages"? It's current name just sounds like a positive thing (unless it's meant in a sarcastic manner, then nevermind).
• I Have Been Preparing For This My Whole Life is much better as not only a capstone but as a class feature in general. The only thing I suggest is explaining what happens if they already have the Diehard feat.

Nice polishing of your class.



Aaaand that's all folks! Two days till the competition ends and it doesn't look like we'll be getting any last minute completions or new entries; So, I think we have our contestants!

[4th number]

Some final changes:

Added art. It may change if I get permission for something I like better, though.

Made the Knowledge requirement 6 ranks, so you can get in with just cross-class ranks after 8th level.

Added some verbiage to Impart Wisdom. (which is in fact a sarcastic name )

Changed the wording to "...the winter warrior gains the Diehard feat if they do not already have it." I think the capstone is good enough that Diehard is very minor, and almost all people won't have it anyway since (as you pointed out earlier) it kinda sucks.

[Milo v3]

Maybe drop the swim speed entirely, give Cold Resistance ~1-5 and a racial bonus to Swim checks?

But name one type of water fey which doesn't have a swim speed. It just doesn't feel right. Though they should have some form of cold resistance.

Well, why not make them like Gnomes and just be humanoid descendants of Fey? That way you can give them Fey Blood, which opens up room since you don't need to balance for the Fey main type any longer.

I hate that backstory, fey shouldn't lose their power just because they left their lands (Which these guys didn't) and it doesn't make sense for them to breed with a completely different creature type (So that backstory is gone).

And lastly, removing the Fey type and making them Humanoid removes the some of the subtle eldritch flavour.

• The Snow Crafting feat is honestly pretty weak. Why not change it so that they can just replace snow and ice for any material when crafting? That way they can make fleets of ice ships or snowflake windows or other such things?

That sounds fitting.

[Tanuki Tales]

Made the Knowledge requirement 6 ranks, so you can get in with just cross-class ranks after 8th level.

Erm, Pathfinder doesn't have Cross-class skill penalties or anything. You just get a flat bonus for even having a rank in a class skill.

Changed the wording to "...the winter warrior gains the Diehard feat if they do not already have it." I think the capstone is good enough that Diehard is very minor, and almost all people won't have it anyway since (as you pointed out earlier) it kinda sucks.

Alrighty.

But name one type of water fey which doesn't have a swim speed. It just doesn't feel right.

Said Water Fey also tend to be bound to water though.

I hate that backstory, fey shouldn't lose their power just because they left their lands (Which these guys didn't)

Is that their back story? I never honestly read deep into the fluff for them.

and it doesn't make sense for them to breed with a completely different creature type (So that backstory is gone).

How so? And they could always have been cursed or bound in flesh or something or other.

And lastly, removing the Fey type and making them Humanoid removes the some of the subtle eldritch flavour.

True, I was just pointing out a change that could change what you needed to balance is all.

[4th number]

Erm, Pathfinder doesn't have Cross-class skill penalties or anything. You just get a flat bonus for even having a rank in a class skill.

Oh, duh. Thanks.

[Tanuki Tales]

Last day before this month's contest closes everyone!

[Razanir]

I actually have a question for future competitions. What timezome is the posting deadline in? Like I'm in UTC-6