Pathfinder Grab Bag Competition Chat Thread

[Tanuki Tales]

If I create a true dragon, do I need to post a sample dragon?

Since it's not a template technically, no. But it'd be a nice thing to see if you got the chance.

[Stake A Vamp]

so, I really can't find an image for the base class I am trying to make, is it required?

[Tanuki Tales]

so, I really can't find an image for the base class I am trying to make, is it required?

Not at all. Especially since it's turning into too much effort to properly use one these days.

[SamBurke]

Not at all. Especially since it's turning into too much effort to properly use one these days.

Dear goodness, yes.

[Stake A Vamp]

and the first entry is up!

[malonkey1]

and the first entry is up!

Followed by the second! I felt Alchemists needed a little more love, so I made a PrC for them specifically. Spontaneous arcanists (sorcerers, bards, summoners) can join, too, if they have a breath wepon, but they get hecka less out of it.

EDIT: Stake, I'll look at your class more closely in a PEACH sometime later. First glances look interesting.

[Milo v3]

Guessing I can't just make a PF Base Class conversion of my Disciple of the Noble Blood PRC.

[Ancient Hippo]

So, I had planned to make an Alchemist archetype, but Malonkey's submission has so similar abilities than what I had in mind that I'll have to think of something else.

[malonkey1]

Oops, sorry bro. Good luck, man.

Stake: Here's your PEACH:

Dragonfire Adept

Spoiler

Show

yes i know the name needs work any ideas are appreciated

How about Scalykind Champion?

Take my blade, my armour too, have my gold, I give it you. But yet still i do not fear thee, you can't take my soul from me.

-chorus of the song of dragonfire

Draconic ancestry is a powerful force. It drives many to adventure, grants sorcery, and sometimes leaves a mark on ones very soul. The Dragonfire Adept turns this spark into a roaring unquenchable inferno. Dragonfire Adepts can harness their ancestry to great effect in combat, sheathing their blade in flame, or whirling in a fury, cutting down their foes like wheat or even ushering their allies to ever greater feats.

this spark is especially common in adventurers, as this spark often drives people to unusual and adventurous lifestyles.

Role: Where a Dragonfire Adept truly shines is in melee, in the thick of the action

Makes sense.

Alignment: due to the dragon ancestry and the inherent passion required to maintain an inferno in ones soul, a Dragonfire Adept must maintain an extreme alignment (I.E. LG, CG, LE, CE)

Alright.

Hit Die: d10

Starting Gold: As fighter,

Class Skills
Appraise (Int) Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Fly (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).

Skill Ranks per Level: (4+ Int modifier)

These all seem in order.

Good BAB, Good fort & will

Alright, that fits with the above.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the CLASS NAME.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: What weapons and armor your class is proficient in the use of!

All other class features go here (Use the format shown directly below if you don't know what to do.)!

Hm.I think you forgot the proficiencies here. I assume they're proficient with simple and martial weapons, and at least medium armor?

Dragon Aspect (Su): Every Dragonfire Adept must choose an aspect of their draconic ancestors to pursue. this is an important choice, as many future abilities are dictated by this choice. the Dragonfire Adept has three choices, Glory, Passion, and Power.

Glory: The drive to become great and make a name for oneself is especially powerful in some Dragonfire Adepts. Dragonfire Adepts who choose this aspect gain the one use of the Challenge ability per day. Challenge is the same as smite evil in all respect except that the target need not be evil, and there is no damage bonus against evil outsiders, evil dragons and evil undead. The Challenge effect remains until the target of the Challenge is dead or the next time the Dragonfire Adept rests and regains her uses of this ability. At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the Dragonfire Adept may use Challengeone additional time per day, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.

Alright, not a bad idea.

Passion: sometimes the inherent primal power one feels as a Dragonfire Adept is especially strong. Dragonfire Adepts who choose this aspect gains the frenzy power. A Dragonfire Adept can call upon inner reserves of strength and ferocity, granting her additional combat prowess. Starting at 1st level, a Dragonfire Adept can Frenzy for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + her Constitution modifier. At each level after 1st, she can Frenzy for 2 additional rounds. Temporary increases to Constitution, such as those gained from Frenzy and spells like bear's endurance, do not increase the total number of rounds that a Dragonfire Adept can Frenzy per day. A Dragonfire Adept can enter Frenzy as a free action. The total number of rounds of Frenzy per day is renewed after resting for 8 hours, although these hours do not need to be consecutive.
While in Frenzy, a Dragonfire Adept gains a +4 morale bonus to her Strength and Constitution, as well as a +2 morale bonus on Will saves. In addition, she takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase to Constitution grants the Dragonfire Adept 2 hit points per Hit Dice, but these disappear when the Frenzy ends and are not lost first like temporary hit points. While in Frenzy, a Dragonfire Adept cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.
A Dragonfire Adept can end her Frenzy as a free action and is fatigued after Frenzy for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the Frenzy. A Dragonfire Adept cannot enter a new Frenzy while fatigued or exhausted but can otherwise enter Frenzy multiple times during a single encounter or combat. If a Dragonfire Adept falls unconscious, her Frenzy immediately ends, placing her in peril of death

Alright, so basically barbarian rage? Could I apply rage powers from the Barbarian class in this frenzy

power: sometimes the inherent magic of dragons shows itself in a Dragonfire Adept. a Dragonfire Adept who chooses this aspect gains an arcane pool, as the magus ability of the same name.

Okay. Seems reasonable.

Aspect Ability (Su,): at sixth twelfth and eighteenth level the Dragonfire Adept gains an ability based on their Aspect

Glory:
level 6: you gain leadership as a bonus feat, or if you already possess it, you gain a permanent +2 bonus to your leadership score
level 12: you gain both an aura of courage and an aura of resolve, as the paladin abilities of the same name
level 18: you gain an aura of Righteousness as per the paladin ability of the same name, with the exception that you gain DR 5/+4

Passion:
level 6: your Dragonfire Adept levels count as levels of fighter for the purposes of Qualifying for fighter-only feats
level 12:At 12th level, when a Passion aspect Dragonfie Adept enters Frenzy, the morale bonus to her Strength and Constitution increases to +6 and the morale bonus on her Will saves increases to +3
Level 18: at level 18, a Dragonfire Adept is no longer fatigued after a frenzy

Power:
level 6: you may choose any second level magus spell, and cast it 2/day as a spell-like ability, using your class level as your caster level
level 12: you may choose any fifth level magus spell, and cast it 2/day as a spell-like ability, using your class level as your caster level
level 18:you may choose any eighth level magus spell, and cast it 2/day as a spell-like ability, using your class level as your caster level

I don't see any balance issues, but there's a growing concernhere that I'll mention at the end.

Aspect Paragon (Su): at Twentieth level, the Dragonfire Adept becomes the very embodiment of their Dragon Aspect.

Glory: your DR increases to 10/+5 and you gain a permanent +4 to your leadership score

Passion: while in frenzy, you gain DR 10/-

Power: your eighth level Spell like abilities become 3/day, your fifth and second level ability's become at will.

Well, I see no issues with the chassis or the class features, but, to me, it feels like you taped three separate classes together. I'd feel more comfortable with the class if you picked a main way to go, and offered some variation on that.

[Ancient Hippo]

Put my submission up. I'd be grateful if someone finds the time to read it and tell me why it sucks.

[malonkey1]

Put my submission up. I'd be grateful if someone finds the time to read it and tell me why it sucks.

It's actually not bad. I'm a little confused on the wording for Restricted Spellcasting. Is it, say "I have a Blue Dragon Wyrmblade, my fireball is a lightningball", or are you unable to cast non-electric energy spells. Also, if you were to have a force dragon Wyrmblade, would you have to use force spells?

Also, Tanuki Tales? Could you please udate the contest thread link in your sig?

[Ancient Hippo]

"I have a Blue Dragon Wyrmblade, my fireball is a lightningball"

This is correct. The wyrmblade currently only works with chromatic or metallic dragons, none of which has the force energy type. I've made this more clear in the description of the ability. I plan to add some extra rules for different kinds of dragons if I have time, though.

[SamBurke]

My review: it doesn't add anything to the Magus, and it takes away quite a lot.

Added:

• Ignore energy resistance! Yeah! To… only dragons?
• Gain a wyrmblade, which seems to lack features. What does this do?
• Energy Resistance. Nice.
• Natural Armor bonus? Nice! … The bite attack is painful, though. 1d2? It could be 1d6, at least.
• The metamagic ability is quite nice, but it's pretty late in the class…

Taken Away:

• SPELL RECALL. This, alone, is one of the hugest problems. In my opinion, Spell Recall is my favorite part of the Magus.
• Medium and Heavy armor.
• Improved Spell Recall as well.
• Spell-casting is restricted… it means that there's a double trap. If you chose a dragon that's got an uncommon weapon (Say, sonic), then you can deal great damage! But Resist energy and all the like are useless. It's… an interesting dynamic, I guess, and not terrible. Just interesting.

All in all, I don't think the archetype justifies itself. It's got a lot of potential, I'd just like to see it get a large buff.

[Ancient Hippo]

Thanks for the review! I've added some comments in the quote below.

My review: it doesn't add anything to the Magus, and it takes away quite a lot.

Added:

• Ignore energy resistance! Yeah! To… only dragons?
  This is mostly so that killing a dragon doesn't make you worse in killing that same kind of dragon. But remember that it applies to all creatures with the dragon type, not only dragons.
• Gain a wyrmblade, which seems to lack features. What does this do?
  It decides the energy type you're associated with.
• Energy Resistance. Nice.
• Natural Armor bonus? Nice! … The bite attack is painful, though. 1d2? It could be 1d6, at least.
  You may be right. I think I'll keep the damage dice as it is, but allow it to have 1-1/2 str to damage at all times. Gives something nice to str-based magi.
• The metamagic ability is quite nice, but it's pretty late in the class…

Taken Away:

• SPELL RECALL. This, alone, is one of the hugest problems. In my opinion, Spell Recall is my favorite part of the Magus.
  You're kind of right. I think I'll change the resistance to replace an arcana and add some damage-boosting ability to make up for all of the lost shocking grasps.
• Medium and Heavy armor.
• Improved Spell Recall as well.
  I'd say that the ability that replaces this is even better in some ways, as it allows you to break the metamagic system. Maximized Heightened Persistent Disintegrate, anyone?
• Spell-casting is restricted… it means that there's a double trap. If you chose a dragon that's got an uncommon weapon (Say, sonic), then you can deal great damage! But Resist energy and all the like are useless. It's… an interesting dynamic, I guess, and not terrible. Just interesting.

All in all, I don't think the archetype justifies itself. It's got a lot of potential, I'd just like to see it get a large buff.

The tweaks shall wait for tomorrow, though... I'm too tired.

[Tanuki Tales]

Popping in for a quick second (just finished a grueling run of finishing my Term Project and dipping out for a night at the movies with family and friends) to remind folks to vote if they haven't yet.

And I think I fixed whatever was wrong with the links in my signature.

[Milo v3]

So..... Was that a yes or a no for the disciple of noble blood conversion?

[Benly]

I've posted my submission. I decided to engage with dragons on a bit more of a symbolic level for this one. I'm interested in hearing feedback.

While I'm at it, a little feedback on the Dragonblood Chymist. I like the class on the whole, although I haven't evaluated the specific extract lists, but there are two rules nitpicks I have.

First: Since it's possible to qualify as a Chymist without Breath Weapon Bomb (via having an actual breath weapon) what, if anything, do Improved Breath Weapon Bomb and Greater Breath Weapon Bomb do in the case of a Dragonblood Chymist without that discovery?

Second: Dragonblood Breweries should probably either be renamed to Dragonblood Discoveries, or it should be made clear that they are treated as discoveries. There are feats and abilities that specifically affect discoveries, and as it stands dragonblood breweries are not compatible with them.

Other than those minor rules glitches, I like the general style of the class. 8/10 extract progression, reduced discoveries and full bomb prog seems about right for the benefits the class gives - maybe errs a little on the generous side, but not to a significant degree.

[malonkey1]

First: Since it's possible to qualify as a Chymist without Breath Weapon Bomb (via having an actual breath weapon) what, if anything, do Improved Breath Weapon Bomb and Greater Breath Weapon Bomb do in the case of a Dragonblood Chymist without that discovery?

It's intended specifically for alchemists with the Breath Weapon Bomb. I'm considering removing access via breath weapon, or changing it to affect natural breath weapons.

Second: Dragonblood Breweries should probably either be renamed to Dragonblood Discoveries, or it should be made clear that they are treated as discoveries. There are feats and abilities that specifically affect discoveries, and as it stands dragonblood breweries are not compatible with them.

Noted, and will correct.

Other than those minor rules glitches, I like the general style of the class. 8/10 extract progression, reduced discoveries and full bomb prog seems about right for the benefits the class gives - maybe errs a little on the generous side, but not to a significant degree.

I was intending to fall on the generous side, as I've seen some hate coming at the Alchemist, and wanted to give them some love. I was shooting for mid-to-high +1, maybe bordering on +2 tier.

[Tanuki Tales]

Well, I have a surprise for everyone!

Since I've been so late with handing out last month's trophies, I put in the extra effort to use what I learned in my Comp Sci class to create a new style for the trophies. Hopefully they're of better quality than the previous ones and are to your guys' liking.

[Benly]

I was intending to fall on the generous side, as I've seen some hate coming at the Alchemist, and wanted to give them some love. I was shooting for mid-to-high +1, maybe bordering on +2 tier.

Well, I'm a little finicky about what tiers mean so I'm not going to weigh in on that particularly. I don't think "a little generous" is a bad thing, though.

The problem in general with alchemist PrCs is that they have so many different things to advance and they're all important enough that just dropping one or more entirely is a huge drawback to a PrC. When I say "a little generous" basically I mean that I think you could've given fewer discoveries and gotten away with it or limited the list of discoveries they can learn through the PrC (especially with dragonblood breweries taking up the slack), but not necessarily that I think you should have, if that makes sense.

[malonkey1]

I get what you're saying.

[Stake A Vamp]

I fixd the concerns, and added a few things, overall, i still think it is balanced.

[Deviston]

Take my blade, my armour too, have my gold, I give it you. But yet still i do not fear thee, you can't take my soul from me.
-chorus of the song of Dragonfire

Lol, couldn't help but sing this in the tune of Firefly :p

Take the blood, of the gold, the blue red or the white so booold
I don't care, I don't fear thee, you can't take my soul from me.

[SamBurke]

Lol, couldn't help but sing this in the tune of Firefly :p

Take the blood, of the gold, the blue red or the white so booold
I don't care, I don't fear thee, you can't take my soul from me.

Same.

A lotta entries this month! I'm intimidated.

[Razanir]

Woo! Finally a contest for which I have a free month and a really cool idea! It's gonna be cool and have theme naming and everything! It'll also be fun, because I'm going off an alternate interpretation of "Dragon" I would give hints, but the PrC quote makes it too obvious

[SamBurke]

Also, Tanuki, the new trophies look marvelous! It'll be in my sig in a sec.

[malonkey1]

Woo! Finally a contest for which I have a free month and a really cool idea! It's gonna be cool and have theme naming and everything! It'll also be fun, because I'm going off an alternate interpretation of "Dragon" I would give hints, but the PrC quote makes it too obvious

Dragon in the TVTropes sense of a villain's right-hand man?

[SamBurke]

Dragon in the TVTropes sense of a villain's right-hand man?

Ooooh! A good thought.

[gr8artist]

I'm still deciding on what to do for this month.
Has everyone voted for last month's competition? If not, you need to.
Can we do a re-make/fix of an existing class, such as the "Dragon Disciple"?

[Razanir]

Dragon in the TVTropes sense of a villain's right-hand man?

Dragon Reborn, actually