OOTS Polls (feat. Favourite NPC Tournament)

[dancrilis]

What kind of depth does Xykon have? He's rotten to the bone, want's to rule the world because he's got nothing else to do and he kills or watches people getting killed when he's bored. I don't see any depth here.

Really well I do, Xykon is a very powerful person and he is evil is certainly one way to view him but I think is avoids some of the core elements that make up his character.

Xykon quite literally has nothing left he is a person that is focused on a single goal to the exclusion of all others because if he doesn't that what has he got really, he would not seem the type to stay holed up in a castle for long, and he has no interest in the bureaucracy of actually running a city much less the world, he as such has one driving goal which is to conquer the world ... and the second he does well he would set a new higher goal because he has to to keep from eternal boredom and potential introspection.

Moreso Xykon knows this and doesn't care, he realises who he is and the choices he has made and he is if not happy with them at least accepting of them as part of himself.

This is what I see in him, perhaps I am reading to much into it but it shows depth to me.

In fact, I believe that of all important characters from the Dorukan's Dungeon arc, Xykon is the only one who remained the same, one-dimensional character as was originally written.

You see here is the problem as far as I am concerned, where Redcloak might have needed to leave the dungeon for us to see who he is, Xykon demonstrated who is was fairly clearly because where Redcloak has never really grown up Xykon is fairly set in his ways.

To me the represent a young idealist and an aged cynic fairly well, with the idealism leaving the youth throughout the comic.

Before we knew about the true characterization of Redcloak, the Gate was still revealed. Unless the Giant wanted to completely scrub the story he invented the Gates for, and had them be a forgotten artifact from an overwritten plotline, the story would have eventually petered into nothingness, as Xykon would not ever be able to do a single thing with the Gates.

Actually as an epic spellcaster he certainly could have.

Redcloak, meanwhile, could have gotten any other old mage. Or could have started dabbling in multiclassing himself, if he felt confident enough. Just because that part of the story wasn't revealed yet doesn't mean it wasn't in place.

Actually from a readers perspective it does mean that, but regardless Redcloak did not have the diary so without Xykon they would have been lost.

And with Redcloak involved, it would still be Team Evil. Not quite as evil, but that's like saying an aircraft carrier is not as big as an oil tanker. Yeah, there's a big difference between the two, but it's still gonna outclass the hell out of the boats you typically see.

It isn't about outclassing, Redcloak is not really all that evil compared to the regular evils in the world of OOTS, Nale may rank higher, as might the ancient black dragon.
I believe it has been stated by the giant that Redcloak for example would not destroy immortal souls.

I like Redcloak but I simple don't hold him to be in Xykon league in terms of likeability, either to read or in the fictional idea of meeting for a drink where you just have a pleasant chat and they don't harm you in any way, I think Xykon would be better company.

Either way I think it looks like Redcloak may have it in this, which is not ideal but still ok, he is a solid and enjoyable character.

[FAD!]

You see here is the problem as far as I am concerned, where Redcloak might have needed to leave the dungeon for us to see who he is, Xykon demonstrated who is was fairly clearly because where Redcloak has never really grown up Xykon is fairly set in his ways.

To me the represent a young idealist and an aged cynic fairly well, with the idealism leaving the youth throughout the comic.

Wait. How is Redcloak an idealist?

[zimmerwald1915]

Wait. How is Redcloak an idealist?

He believes the world emerges from spirit, personified as gods, rather than believing that spirit emerges from mind, which emerges, ultimately, from the world.

:troll:

[ti'esar]

Now I'll never be able to make that joke without being considered a plagiarist.

[Silvos4422]

Yes.

I do believe we will not only see Qarr and Sabine, but I expect an active role from the top three. It is hard for me to believe that they would waste such resources, a triple soul splice of three of their combined most powerful souls for such a minimal fee, without a larger plan behind it. This would be the best time for them to intervine if they would at all. The made the gate defenseless through their deal, and have two agents in place. It seems like an opportunity that they could not pass up.

Redcloak

I still have hope for Redcloak, not all of his actions aren't inherently evil, and now with his true ambitions known I feel he may not end up as a bad guy at all. (Ok so threatening the other gods with a god killer may not be the good way to handle the situation, but maybe I would give it to him as a neutral action)

Xykon has had his character growth already, he knows what he is, while Redcloak is still learning who is he is and what he has to do.

[dancrilis]

Wait. How is Redcloak an idealist?

Redcloak flying on faith, he has no idea how the Dark One will react once the plan is complete, he also has no knowledge that the ritual will work at all, and if it does work he has no confirmation that the gods will not simple remake the world again better this time to hold the snarl.

He had no basis for his actions other then the hope that things will work out.

Xykon I don't believe cares about any of that. He is more along for the ride and if things go belly up, well that happens you just start again.

For Xykon it is all about enjoying the journey, for Redcloak it is about his vision of the destination without knowing what that will actually look like, might be a better way of putting it.

[FAD!]

Redcloak flying on faith, he has no idea how the Dark One will react once the plan is complete, he also has no knowledge that the ritual will work at all, and if it does work he has no confirmation that the gods will not simple remake the world again better this time to hold the snarl.

He had no basis for his actions other then the hope that things will work out.

Redcloak doesn't hope nothing. He plans, and has been known to do so for at least 30 years.

[oppyu]

Replace 'goblin' with 'human', and there would be a very strong case for Redcloak being an idealist. If our world was designed for humans to be hunted down and killed for experience, and there was just one human standing up to the Gods and trying to change things, then that human would be an idealist of the highest order. Albeit a dangerous, misguided, extremist idealist who is a threat to all creation.

[dancrilis]

Redcloak doesn't hope nothing. He plans, and has been known to do so for at least 30 years.

The two are not exclusive, and Redcloak knows he hopes things work out.

Redcloak: I know exactly what I'm doing, and what's at stake. We all have our gambles. Just 'cause I'm willing to bet on the longshot doesn't mean I don't know the odds. I'm well aware that there's a high chance that what we're doing may result in doomsday for all of us. But I pushed my chips into the middle of the table long ago, so I might as well play my hand to the end.

He has what he considers an ok plan to achieve his aims, he is riding it through to the end making adjustments as he goes to maximise the success chance, but at the end of the day he knows flat out that he has a sizeable chance of losing his gamble, due to any number of factors both known and unknown.

[FAD!]

Replace 'goblin' with 'human', and there would be a very strong case for Redcloak being an idealist. If our world was designed for humans to be hunted down and killed for experience, and there was just one human standing up to the Gods and trying to change things, then that human would be an idealist of the highest order. Albeit a dangerous, misguided, extremist idealist who is a threat to all creation.

If that was the case, Redcloak would be the good guy, no matter how misguided. From our standpoint, Goblins are walking XP, but from their side they choose to have a society based on raiding low-level adventurers and attacking other races. Humans are considered 'good' because they don't discriminate as much. Orcs aren't, because they do discriminate, and they value violence.

The two are not exclusive, and Redcloak knows he hopes things work out.

Everyone hopes things will work out. Xykon hopes things will work out, but that doesn't mean he's an idealist.

He has what he considers an ok plan to achieve his aims, he is riding it through to the end making adjustments as he goes to maximise the success chance, but at the end of the day he knows flat out that he has a sizeable chance of losing his gamble, due to any number of factors both known and unknown.

Again, this makes him a schemer, probably a masterful one, but still not an idealist.

[B. Dandelion]

I would say a cynic and an idealist look at the world in two different ways, where the cynic would pride himself on seeing things as they really are while the idealist would prefer the virtues of seeing things as they could be -- one sees the pitfalls and the other the potentials.

Xykon has an uglier view of how other people work, so you could call him a cynic, but he's pretty damn optimistic when it comes to his view of himself and what he can hope to accomplish. He's been a sucker to Redcloak's bogus plan for 30 years, making it hard to say he's free of typical idealistic credulity. Redcloak has an idealistic goal, but uses some pretty damn cynical methods (his entire plan revolves around blackmail and extortion). It's hard for me to look at that setup and declare one of them an idealist and the other a cynic -- they're both a mix.

[Silvos4422]

If that was the case, Redcloak would be the good guy, no matter how misguided. From our standpoint, Goblins are walking XP, but from their side they choose to have a society based on raiding low-level adventurers and attacking other races. Humans are considered 'good' because they don't discriminate as much. Orcs aren't, because they do discriminate, and they value violence.

I actually would say that proving that redcloak is a "good" guy is a viable arguement. My real problem is with your arguement is based off the fact that you believe goblins have a choice. It seems to me from his statements goblins do not have the chance to advance, they are stuck in the hunter gatherer phase of evolution because they do not have the protection or resources to move into the scholarly aspects. This is proven through the fact that almost all goblin casters are either sorcerers (inate magic), Clerics (magic from a diety), or warlocks (magic from another powerful being). There really are not many goblin wizards who had free time to study like V did.

His plan is to establish goblins as an acknowledged race so they do not have to resort to raiding low lvl adventuing parties. He wants to advance his race so that they have the option of being something other than evil. While his methods (allowing so many golbins to be sacrificed to Xykon) may not make hime good, I would atleast give him a neutral rating, because has the good of the many, not the good of one as his lifelong goal.

I would consider Redcloak an idealist, but I don't think the term cynic quite fits. I feel is an idealist that retains a realistic view of the world. He knows that a lot of blood would have to be shed before such a radical change can occur. Just because he is willing to allow bloodshed for change does not change the fact that he is looking for a better future for all goblin kind.

[B. Dandelion]

I feel is an idealist that retains a realistic view of the world. He knows that a lot of blood would have to be shed before such a radical change can occur.

You're begging the question. Redcloak can't "know" that unless it's true -- but we don't know that it's true goblins can't achieve equality without bloodshed. He might believe that, but if he's wrong, by your own definition he wouldn't be an idealist, because his assessment wouldn't be "realistic" but overly negative.

Which is not to say I think the only thing standing between goblinkind and success is their own poor choices, their options are limited compared to others. Just, there's a difference between fewer options and no options.

[zimmerwald1915]

I actually would say that proving that redcloak is a "good" guy is a viable arguement. My real problem is with your arguement is based off the fact that you believe goblins have a choice. It seems to me from his statements goblins do not have the chance to advance, they are stuck in the hunter gatherer phase of evolution because they do not have the protection or resources to move into the scholarly aspects. This is proven through the fact that almost all goblin casters are either sorcerers (inate magic), Clerics (magic from a diety), or warlocks (magic from another powerful being). There really are not many goblin wizards who had free time to study like V did.

Have you read Start of Darkness? We are shown in the course of that book

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A goblin society, set up in part by Redcloak's brother, that is fully capable not only of agriculture but of creating a surplus of food. Redcloak's creation story itself talks about how goblins were "given" the worst land for farming, which shows that the techniques involved were known to and practiced by them. This society is shown to be capable of producing wizards, including Redcloak's own nephew, whose chance at that profession is cut short not by social pressures - though his father's against it for a time - but by Xykon pressing him and the rest of the family into slavery.

Also, this stuff about Goblin arcane casters being all sorcerers and warlocks is bunk. We've seen one warlock in the entire comic, and zero goblin sorcerers or warlocks that have been called out as such. Prior to the conquest of Azure City, we saw no hobgoblin arcane casters at all. We did see one goblin wizard in SoD. Arcane magic is apparently a rarity among goblins...just like it is everywhere else.

[oppyu]

I would object to my poll thread being used for a debate about goblin society, but it's been weeks since the last strip and who knows how long it will be to the next one... carry on

[Silvos4422]

First, I would like to apologize for using your thread like this, but as you said it has been a really long time since the last comic. And I promise to stop when the next one does come out.

As to Zimmerwald's point, I admit I have a very limited knowledge of SoD, and that passage would negate my idea for Redcloak as an idealist, at least in the sense I meant. Maybe you could classify him as a religious zelot, such as the leaders of any religous war, but Idealist may not be the term for him.

[B. Dandelion]

Spoiler

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A goblin society, set up in part by Redcloak's brother, that is fully capable not only of agriculture but of creating a surplus of food. Redcloak's creation story itself talks about how goblins were "given" the worst land for farming, which shows that the techniques involved were known to and practiced by them. This society is shown to be capable of producing wizards, including Redcloak's own nephew, whose chance at that profession is cut short not by social pressures - though his father's against it for a time - but by Xykon pressing him and the rest of the family into slavery.

Where did you get some of these details?

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Right-Eye's community never says anything about producing a surplus of food. They never say anything about being primarily agricultural at all - Right-Eye is a carpenter. When the kids talk about bringing in the Monster in the Darkness, he initially protests on the grounds that has a hard enough time keeping them fed as it is.

Ridizak did eventually become a wizard -- not that it did him much good -- but there was no indication of more than one. The direct implication of "you should let him be a wizard because I'd hate to live in a village without one" is that they didn't have any until Ridizak.

[zimmerwald1915]

Where did you get some of these details?

Spoiler

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Right-Eye's community never says anything about producing a surplus of food. They never say anything about being primarily agricultural at all - Right-Eye is a carpenter. When the kids talk about bringing in the Monster in the Darkness, he initially protests on the grounds that has a hard enough time keeping them fed as it is.

Ridizak did eventually become a wizard -- not that it did him much good -- but there was no indication of more than one. The direct implication of "you should let him be a wizard because I'd hate to live in a village without one" is that they didn't have any until Ridizak.

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That the community can support a carpenter - which implies a laboring class of manufacturers or artisans - at all suggests that there is food enough to keep everyone in it alive. Whether that food comes from production or trade doesn't really matter. What matters is that this myth of goblins having no choice other than starving or raiding thanks to their land is just that: a myth. That it is difficult for the community to do so does speak to possible deficiencies in the productive capacity of the land or trade-disrupting prejudices among surrounding peoples, but that does not mean that goblins have no choice in how they live their lives, just that some options are harder than others.

You mention implications. Well, one of the biggest implications about the village we're discussing is that it's a relatively recent development, built up within the past couple decades or so. Of course a new community isn't going to host an institution for training mages, and given the scarcity of goblin wizards and wizards in general, it's even pretty unlikely that there's anybody willing to take Ridi on as an apprentice. The most likely person to train Ridi would be that robed fellow who couldn't identify the MitD, and for a long time Right-Eye wouldn't let him ask.

...Yeah, probably best to wrap this up soon. Sorry, oppyu.

[B. Dandelion]

We're on the same page as far as the distinction between no choices and hard choices goes. But I'm saying you produced some specific details which aren't there. "Producing wizards including so-and-so" says multiple wizards. "Produced a surplus of food" says... exactly that, when we don't know they were producing any food at all. It just bugs me that it seems you make their conditions out to be better than they were. Clearly they were getting by and they demonstrated a possible alternative path to success. But they were getting by on less, as is specifically stressed.

[The Pilgrim]

Yes

Redcloak

[dancrilis]

Everyone hopes things will work out. Xykon hopes things will work out, but that doesn't mean he's an idealist.

True, but the difference (for me) is in how they art when the plan falls apart.
I don't mean a part of the plan suffers or a setback occurs, I mean - plan over, you lose.

Redcloak has everything riding on this plan, everything that he is is devoted to it 100%, and if it doesn't work I think he would break.
This to be is an idealist who has had his hope crushed.

Xykon has very little riding on this plan, everything that he is is devoted to himself 100%, and if the plan doesn't work, well time for a new plan no big deal these things happen.
This to be is a more cynical attitude (not the get up and try again, but how blasé I think he might be on the 'oh well' side of it).

But that might just be me.

I would object to my poll thread being used for a debate about goblin society, but it's been weeks since the last strip and who knows how long it will be to the next one... carry on

Opps, my bad I might have started a lot of this.

[oppyu]

#857 - The Pit of Despair
Will the IFCC play any role in the battle for Girard's Gate?
Yes: 27 - 77.14%
No: 8 - 22.86%

Round 3, Match 1
: 22 - 57.89%
: 16 - 42.11%

#858 - Actually, She Did
Who will be the next relevant [Let's say roughly at least ten appearances and a distinct personality] character to die? (Once you're done answering this question, feel free to pop into the Death Pool thread if you haven't already done so )

Round 3, Match 2
*is tied up and about to be dropped into an acid pool with spikes and an acid-breathing shark. Trips one of the goblins holding him into the acid before falling in. Drops onto the spikes, one of the spikes stabbing through his chest. Uses the spikes to free himself while the shark eats the goblin that he tripped. Lets the shark attack and partially swallow him. Uses the momentum of the shark attacking him to propel himself from the tank. After all that, charges Xykon with a no-weapon Smite Evil*

VS

"Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realise this dungeon was appropriate for a pity party of 4-6 characters. Just like you to try and solo it. Yes, you screwed up big, and yes, a lot of people paid the price. But sitting in a pit moping about it isn't going to fix anything! You need to get your butt out of here and back up to where you can help Roy try to put this right!"

[Ted The Bug]

Tarquin's kobold. Kilkil? I think that's the name.

O-Chul times a million. Anyone but Blackwing.

[Gift Jeraff]

I'm voting for Belkar in the death pool thread, but I'll go for a semi-long shot here and say Tarquin.

The O-C.

[FAD!]

I first I was like, "But I'm really bad at guessing these things! " Then I figured it out. Kilkil!

Blackwing.

[Kish]

Not voting on the first question.

O-Chul.

[martianmister]

Belkar X Blackwing

[rgrekejin]

At first, I was gonna vote for Kilkil, but then I realized that one of the criteria was "having a distinct personality", which disqualified him. So I guess I'll vote for Tarquin.

For the poll, O-Chul, easily.

[dancrilis]

I will play the very long shot and say Durkon.

For the character poll.
I consider O-Chul overrated (greatly) causing some dislike on my part that is no fault of the characters, and I consider Blackwing to be a class feature.
...
...
...
As such as Blackwing wins for actually being relevant to the plot and the main characters development, whereas O-Chul (while a solid character despite forum reaction trying to cheapen his character) seems somewhat irrelevant at this stage to the story.

[The Pilgrim]

Durkon

O-Chul