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    Default [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    Wellllll... Do you guys know that fancy wargame "War Machine"? Well I learned about it recently and thought it looked really cool and would love to get into wargames like that. I've played a tiny bit of a battle mech game and some Heroscape, but that's it. I got myself some quickstart rules and did some research. Then I decided no one I know would spend 50 dollars just to try a new game with me. That, and I can't paint worth a darn. So instead, I decided I'd try to come up with some simple rules for a wargame of my own. And what better than D&D? I've done the first smidge of creating mass combat rules for D&D 3.5. I think the Miniatures Handbook might have something for this, but that's one of the few books I don't have and right now I don't really care if it's already been done. Making my own now. Right now I only have the most basic stuff done, and if I continue with this it'll be a deal more inclusive. Continuation based on enthusiasm.

    Mass Combat

    What is Mass Combat?
    Mass Combat is a fight in which a large number of individuals are pitted against one another. By standard rules, it is not feasible to play out the several thousand attack actions soldiers make each round, nor is it feasible to keep track of their hit points and other statistics. This system is a way to simplify this process to a reasonable level, such that large-scale conflicts can be modeled.

    These rules should allow Dungeon Masters to model sieges, wars, and the like to a satisfactory degree instead of fluffing it all. Additionally, these rules may allow a sub-game of Dungeons and Dragons - a Wargame version.

    Mass Combat focuses around three types of troops - Units, Supplementary Units, and Heroes.

    Standard Unit: A group of characters or creatures with HD or level ranging from 1 to 5. A unit can be anywhere from 2 to 50 individuals. Units are comprised of a single class or monster.

    Supplementary Units: A group of support-type characters or creatures which join with a standard unit. Generally a Supplementary Unit comprises 1/10th of the standard unit (IE Unit of 50 Warriors, 5 Bards).

    Hero: Any single character or creature with an HD or level in excess of 5.

    Standard Unit Combat (The Basics)

    Combat is measured in minutes instead of rounds, and uses 50ft squares instead of 5ft ones.

    A Standard Unit is made by starting with a representative character. Create a character sheet for the "Average" soldier in that unit. Point buy for stats is highly recommended. However, skills are either trained or not (Trained skills=skill points/level) and HP is always average.

    A Standard Unit has six primary statistics: Skill, Power, Defense, Health, Speed and Initiative. In ALL CASES, drop fractions after calculations.

    Skill is a unit's ability to land hits. This is simply the Attack Bonus of the representative soldier plus eight. A unit may have multiple Skill values if using multiple weapon types (A unit armed with both bows and swords, for example).

    Power is the damage output by a unit, assuming they hit. This is the average damage values of the unit's weapons, plus modifiers, multiplied by the population in the unit. (Damage)*(Population). Each unit has five Power values, based on it's health - Max Power, as calculated above, 4/5, 3/5, 2/5 and 1/5 power which are simply the max multiplied by the given fraction.

    Defense is simply the AC of the representative character.

    Health is the heartiness of the unit. This is the average health of the representative character (Including fractions) multiplied by the population of the unit. Just as the four levels of Power are written out, so are those for Health. When Health drops to the 3/5 level, the unit begins using the 3/5 Power value.

    Speed is the base land speed of the representative character, plus modifiers. Units move ten times this amount in a Mass Combat Round.

    Initiative is the unit's Iniative score. The Unit with the higher Initiative deals damage first in a conflict, which can impact the damage output of the opposing force.

    The simplest combat is a melee confrontation.
    1. Both engaged forces role 1d4+Skill versus the other unit's Defense.
    2. Each force takes an amount of damage equal to the attacking force's Power. This amount is halved if the attacker did not overcome the defender's Defense. If the attacker failed by 6 or more, no damage is dealt.

    A melee unit can only attack one unit per round, so if engaged by two hostile units, they must choose which to attack.

    In the case of ranged combat, the attacking force takes a penalty to Skill equal to the range penalty.

    Troop Abilities and Special Combat Situations
    Troops will frequently have PC levels or feats that will alter the way they work in Mass Combat.

    Troop Abilities
    Two Weapon Fighting: Dual Wielding units take the appropriate penalty to Skill and add the second weapon's average damage when calculating Power.

    Animal Companions: Mixed with the origin unit. Add the Health and Powers of the two together.

    Rage: The unit gets a proportional boost to Health, Skill and Power for a single round, and gets a penalty to Skill, Power and Defense afterwards.

    Smite: Usable once per battle, awarding a bonus to Skill equal to the unit level and a proportional boost to Power based on Cha modifier.

    Sneak Attack: Bonus damage if from stealth or targets flat-footed. Damage equals X*Pop, where X is d6s of SA damage.

    Evasion: Unit to take half damage from magic attacks and attacks from siege weapons.

    Lay on Hands: Allows the unit to heal the appropriate amount (Cha*Level*Pop*Fraction) during the fight.

    Turn Undead: Turning undead or other creatures works with a flat HD of undead turned equal to (7+Clr Level+Cha)*Class Pop. Turned unit flees for one round.

    Cleave: If the unit's level is triple that of the defending unit, it deals double damage.

    Great Cleave: If the unit's level is five times that of the defending unit, it deals triple damage.

    Power Attack: The unit may choose to take a penalty to Skill equal to its BAB (Or 5, whichever is lower) and in return gain a bonus to un-multiplied Power equal to the same amount.

    Combat Expertise: The unit may choose to take a penalty to Skill equal to its BAB (Or 5, whichever is lower) and in return gain a bonus to Defense equal to the same amount.

    Combat Reflexes: The unit gains +2 to skill when making attacks against retreating units (See Retreating below).

    Formation Feats: If an entire unit has a Formation Feat (Such as Phalanx Fighting or Shield Wall), they gain the benefits of it as if they were in the required formation. Cannot gain the benefits of more than one such feat at a time.

    DR: Ignore first DR*Attacking Population mundane damage from any given attack. This amount is halved if the attack is a miss.

    SR: Attacking unit must make a Magic Skill Check (CL+8+1d4) v SR. Half damage if check fails.

    Fast Healing: At the end of each round, the unit heals an amount of Health equal to healing factor*10*Population, to a max of the current health level.

    Regeneration: If a unit of soldiers with Regeneration is victorious in a melee conflict or damaged by non-magic ranged attacks, they heal at a rate of pop*healing factor*10, to max health. Within melee combat this only works up to the max of their current health level.

    Large Creature Units: 12 Large Creatures constitute a Unit, as do 5 Huge, and 3 Gargantuan. Small sized creatures are still 50 to a unit, but four such units can fit within a single space.

    Mounted Units: Land speed is that of their mounts. Warhorses give a +1 to Skill, Heavy Warhorses also bestow an additional 3 Health per horse. Non-warhorses give their riders a -2 to Skill if said riders attempt to fight while still mounted, though usually soldiers in such a situation would quickly dismount.


    Spells are handled in the "Magic Actions" section, a bit later.

    Classes from homebrew or splatbooks would need similar translations of their key features. I may later add support for things like Martial Adepts.

    Special Combat Situations

    High Ground: +1 to Skill.

    Flanking: Two allied Units assaulting the same enemy from opposite sides gain +1 to Skill and Defense. If one or both such units can deal SA damage, they do so.

    Total Cover: Units under Total Cover cannot be targeted by Ranged attacks or standard Magic attacks. Evocation Actions can however affect them.

    Retreating: A unit withdrawing from melee combat allows the unit from which it is fleeing to make an Attack of Opportunity against it, done in the usual way.

    Supplementary Units
    As mentioned, a Supplementary Unit is a small fraction of a Unit that provides support capabilities. The Supplement must be of a level equal to or greater than its host unit and must be of a population equal to at least 10% of the host unit. Supplementary Units also contribute to Health (Just add their total health to the Health of the unit) and Power (Multiply average damage by pop of Supplement, then by two, and add that to the Power of the Unit).

    Supplementary Units provide some manner of passive bonus to their host unit, based on their class.

    Cleric: Unit has +2 to Defense and ignores the first 5*Level of incoming damage. Can Turn.
    Sorcerer/Wizard: Unit has +1 to Skill, +5 to Power after calculations.
    Bard: Unit has +1 to Skill and +1 to Power before multiplying by Population.
    Crusader: +1 to Skill and +1 to Defense.

    Other classes used as Supplements would need their own listed benefits, such as these.

    Magic Actions
    Units with casting capabilities are simplified using a "Magic Actions" system, in which spells are generalized by type: Attack, Buff, Heal, Summon, Slow, Halt, and Specific Buff. Different classes have access to different actions.

    Wizard/Sorcerer: Attack, Buff, Slow, Summon, Detect magic
    Cleric: Heal, Buff, Summon, Detect Magic
    Druid: Heal, Summon, Slow, Halt, Detect Magic
    Paladin: Heal, Buff
    Ranger: Heal, Buff, Summon
    Bard: Buff, Heal (Divide CL by 2, rounded up for Heal), Slow, Halt, Detect Magic

    Prepared Classes: Total of 1+Level Actions, prepared ahead of time from any action type available to the class. A 1st level Wizard could prepare a single Attack and a single Summon action, for example. Prepared Casters also gain access to the Specific Buff action. Prepared Casters that can spontaneously substitute prepared spells for a certain type of spell maintain that capacity - For example, a Cleric could replace any other prepared Actions with Heal, and a Druid could replace any with Summon.

    Spontaneous: Total of 2+Level Actions, which can be used without preparation from two chosen action types from the class. A Sorcerer could choose Attack and Buff and freely use their Actions for either.

    Paladin-Type: One Action at 4th level. Caster level is 2. If prepared, may select any available actions at start of day. If spontaneous, pick any two and may freely spend Actions for either.

    Bard-Type: Total of level/2 actions, rounded up. If prepared, may select any available actions at start of day. If spontaneous, pick any two and may freely spend Actions for either.

    Non-heroes with casting capabilities must have their highest ability score be, or be tied with, the ability score which determines their ability to cast spells. This does not apply to Paladin-type casters.

    Actions

    Attack: Deals Level*3.5*Pop damage to a target unit within 50ft, 100ft, or 200ft based on caster level. 1st-2nd level is 50ft, 3rd-4th is 100ft, 5th level is 200ft.

    Buff: Target unit of same size or smaller gets a +1, +2 or +3 to Skill or Defense for Caster Level minutes. The bonus is based on caster level, just as for Attack.

    Heal: Target unit regains caster level*4.5*Pop/5 Health, up to the Health Level the unit is currently in. For example, a unit that is a bit below 3/5 their max Health being healed could not surpass the 3/5 mark. Heal Actions may instead by used in melee combat to harm Undead.

    Slow: Movement through target space within 100ft is doubled for Level minutes.

    Halt: Target unit within 100ft is immobilized for one minute.

    Summon: Creates a Summon Unit in an adjacent space. Defense equals 10+Summoner Level, Skill equals Summoner Level+8, Speed is 30ft, Health is 6*Summoner Level*Pop, Power is (4+Summoner Level)*Pop/5. Besides this "Generic Summon", there are three other types.
    -Fast Summons gain +10ft move speed, but Health multiplier is 4 instead of 6.
    -Tough Summons have a 20ft move, but multiplier is 7 instead of 6.
    -Flying Summons have a 30ft air move, but multiplier is 4.

    Specific Buff: Target unit of equal or lesser size is subjected to one appropriate buff for one minute, or Level minutes, based on the spell. Good choices are things like Levitation, Expeditious Retreat, Resist Energy and so on. Said buff must be of a level to which the casting unit has access and cannot be above second level.

    Detect Magic: This action is free to use, does not require preparing nor the allocation of one of a spontaneous caster's action types. When used, detects the presence of magic in an adjacent 50X50 area, as if Detect Magic were cast.

    3rd Level Actions

    5th level prepared casters have an additional, "3rd Level" Magic Action to make use of. This action may be used for any of the following purposes: Specific Buff, Dispel, Utility, or Evocation. Spontaneous casters must choose two to freely pick between, Prepared casters may re-select their third-level action each morning.

    Specific Buff: This Action works just as the normal version, save that the chosen spell may be of 3rd level.

    Dispel: If the casting unit has the ability to cast Dispel Magic, they may prepare this Action as their third-level action. When cast on an area within 150ft, the casting unit rolls CL+8+1d4 opposed by a similar roll made by the caster(s) of the magic in the designated space. If the Dispelling unit wins the roll, the magic within is successfully dispelled.

    Utility: The Unit casts a single 3rd level spell in unison, providing some sort of utility effect not covered by any other action. Examples are: Daylight, Glyph of Warding, Invisibility Purge, Stone Shape, Animate Dead and similar.

    Evocation: If the Unit has access to the Magic Attack action, they may select this as their third-level action. Target unit within 500ft takes 18*Defending Population damage. The attacking unit must have a population of at least 10. Fireballs and Lightning Bolts galore.

    Martial Adept Units
    Martial Adept Units gain the benefits of a single Stance to which they have access, as well as a bonus to Skill, Defense, or un-mulitplied Power based on Unit Level. The bonus is +1 for 1st and 2nd level units, +2 for 3rd and 4th, and +3 for 5th level.

    Troop Splitting and Merging
    Frequently in combat a commander will want to have Units reinforce one another, combine weakened Units, or have units split up. I give you the support for these actions.

    One unit can "move" into another unit of the same type, transferring Health from it to the target. Health cannot exceed normal maximum in this way. Either the transferring Unit must transfer all of its Health, or must transfer an amount such that the recipient unit is now at a fraction benchmark (1/5, 2/5, 3/5, 4/5 or 1X max). This is to prevent Heal hijinks.

    Similarly, a fraction (1/5, 2/5, 3/5, 4/5) of the unit can move away from the rest.

    If a group of soldiers that have expended a capability (Such as Rage, or a Magic Action) joins with a group that has not, the joined Unit cannot use it. Effectively, treat recombined units as having the lower of the two constituent unit's remaining capabilities. Two Prepared Caster Units with different originally prepared spells cannot merge.

    Battle Phases
    General order of events.

    1. Each commander makes a Knowledge (Tactics) check for initiative.
    2. Winning force moves troops, makes Ranged Attacks and takes Spell Actions.
    3. Second force does the above, then third if there is one and so on.
    4. Opposed forces sharing a space enter in melee combat.
    5. First force moves and takes ranged actions once again, starting the cycle anew.

    Heroes
    A Hero is any character of level 6 or greater. PCs participating in a Mass Combat will be treated as Heroes. Heroes have Skills much as Units do - Attack Bonus+8. They also have a Power - Average damage output by mundane attacks.

    Heroes operate in two modes: Solo and Aiding. Solo Heroes are running off on their own, possibly slaying entire Units if high enough level. Aiding Heroes are traveling with a host Unit, helping out where they can. These two modes are easily switched between, simply by having a Hero move into or out of an allied Unit's space. Heroes also have a Power stat, which is their average damage output from an attack, plus twice their extra attacks due to high BAB.

    Solo
    Melee Combat: Hero rolls Skill+1d4, just as units do. They deal Power damage to target, halved if Skill roll does not excede Defense. Combating unit makes a normal Skill+1d4 roll, comparing it to the Hero's AC. The Hero takes Power damage, possibly halved.

    Ranged Attacks: Pretty straightforward. Hero makes Skill+1d4 minus range penalties against Defense of unit, dealing damage as normal. If the target of a ranged attack, the Unit makes checks and deals damage per usual.

    Surrounding: When a Solo Hero engages in Melee (A round ends with a Hero in space with an opposed Unit ), it becomes difficult to flee, especially if said unit is intent on detaining the Hero. The Hero must make a Skill check against a DC equal to Fractioned Population/2 (If Unit Health is at 3/5, use 3/5 pop, etc.). This check may be substituted with a Tumble check, made with Tumble Bonus+8+1d4.

    Soloing Together: Two or more Heroes may travel together and occupy the same space. During melee combat, they each deal and take damage independently.

    Aiding
    An Aiding Hero makes Attacks exactly as if they were Solo. When their unit is attacked, the Hero takes an amount of damage equal to 1/5 the attacking Unit's power. This is much safer, but at the same time more restraining as the Hero must move with the host Unit.

    Heroes and Magic
    Heroes can be the target of Magic Actions just as a Unit can be, taking the usual effects.

    Hero Casters use Magic Actions to represent all of their 0 through 3rd level spells (Treated as 6th level caster for determining number of these). They gain an additional Magic Action for every 4 levels past 6th. Spells of a 4th level and up are dealt with on a case-by case basis, using the individual spells known or prepared by the caster.

    Hero Casters that are not Bard or Paladin type also gain access to Third Level Actions. Prepared Casters have a number equal to 1 plus 1 per level above 5th, maximum 4. Spontaneous Casters have a number equal to 1 plus 1 per level above 6th, maximum 6. Per usual, Spontaneous casters must choose two actions and may freely select which to spend each action on, whereas Prepared Casters prepare each action individually at the start of the day.

    All third level spell actions act as normal, except Evocation, which deals 35*CL, to a max of 2/5 target unit's health. Heroes caught in the blast take 3.5*CL damage.

    Heroes and the Sublime Way
    Hero Martial Adepts work much as Martial Adept Units. The bonus continues to escalate, being equal to level divided by two rounded up, and still gain the benefit of a single Stance. Heroes may split their bonus among the three stats to which it can be added. Heroes may change their stance whenever it is their turn to act, and may spend 5 minutes to reassign their bonus. Specific maneuvers may also be called upon for mobility and utility purposes.

    Siege Engines
    Massive weapons of war, Siege Engines allow the destruction of Fortifications.

    {table=head] Name | Damage/min | Range | Range Increment | Crew | Size | Cost/Ammo cost per minute
    Light Ballista | 40 | 0-1000 | 100 | 2 | Medium | 500/4
    Heavy Ballista | 45 | 0-1200 | 120 | 4 | Huge | 1000/2
    Light Catapult | 40 | 100-750 | 150 | 2 | Large | 550/4
    Heavy Catapult | 45 | 100-1000 | 200 | 4 | Huge | 800/2
    Light Trebuchet | 60 | 150-1250 | 250 | 6 | Gargantuan | 1500/6
    Heavy Trebuchet | 70 | 150-1500 | 300 | 8 | Colossal | 3000/6[/Table]
    Note:
    Ballista cannot target Units, only singular creatures or objects of at least Huge size.

    It takes one Mass Combat round to aim a Siege Engine, after which point they may attack once per round, dealing the designated damage to Units or structures in that space. If targeting a specific creature, as Ballista usually do, an attack roll is made versus the AC of that creature. Said roll is 8+The level of the characters manning the Siege Engine. A miss is a miss, not half damage.

    Other Devices
    Siege Tower: Holds 25 medium sized characters, so two comprise a maximum-sized unit. This 30ft tall tower on wheels can move at a rate of 10ft/round (100ft/Mass Combat round) and allows units inside to climb out over an adjacent wall no higher than said 30ft. Units inside have Total Cover. Enemy melee units attacking Siege Towers gain a +2 to Skill and Initiative against the housed soldiers. Any sort of such melee attack renders the towers immobile. Siege Towers cost 2,000gp a piece.

    Battering Ram: 4 medium-sized soldiers can carry a battering ram, and as many as 10 can wield one at once. Battering Rams do an amount of damage to a structure equal to 14 plus the total Strength Modifiers of all soldiers wielding said ram. Cost 1,000gp per.

    Minefields
    Glyphs of Warding and Blast Disks can both create fields of explosive fiery death. Watch out for them.

    Glyph-Field: 10 needed to make a Minefield. Deal 4.5*CL*Enemy Pop damage.
    Blast Disk-Field: 8 needed to make a Minefield. Deal 3.5*CL*Enemy Pop damage.

    Units may immediately retreat from a Minefield as soon as they realize it is such, suffering only 1/5 the damage they otherwise would. If a Blast Disk field was set on a timer, however, this is not an option.

    Gear
    Every army needs supplies.

    Arrows: Two Ranged Attacks worth of arrows weighs 3lbs. Protracted conflicts may require archers to get more from reservers, or have more brought out to them.

    Cure Light Wounds Potions: A unit armed with these may expend them outside of battle to heal 4 Health per potion used, up to a max of the current fraction max.

    Magic Weapons and Armor: +X armor and weapons are pretty self-explanatory. Weapons with properties like Flaming contribute to Power.

    Eternal Wands: These wondrous creations provide a Casting Unit with one additional Magic Action of a type and level determined by the wand. These refresh each day.

    Scrolls: Just as Eternal Wands, these can be used for additional Magic Actions. One-time-use, though.

    Buff Potions: Units armed with potions that confer a specific buff spell (Potions of Heroism, for example) can imbibe them to gain their effects.

    Soldiers: Command Points can be bought for 3sp a day. Most conscript soldiers have at least year-contracts. That'd be 110gp a Command Point for a year.

    Food: Your basic gruel for one soldier costs 1sp a day, or 36.5 gp a year.

    Blast Disks: 8 used to make a Blast Disk Minefield

    Gear Limitations

    Due to common sense, commanders do not give items of a certain value to green recruits. No character may be equipped with an item worth more than 100gp per Command Point of the character, nor may they possess a consumable item (Potion, scroll, etc.) worth more than 10gp per Character point.

    Command Points
    This set of optional rules are in case you want to use this system as a stand-alone wargame, competing with your friends. Or if you want to measure the relative strengths of two forces. All classes and creatures are assigned a "Rarity" which determines their cost.

    NPC: Warrior class.
    Common: Mundane PC classes or monsters.
    Uncommon: PC classes or monsters with some spellcasting ability.
    Rare: Primary casters or creatures with a wide-range of abilities.
    Super-Rare: I'll explain in a second.

    If a character has a prestige class of any sort, then they are treated as one rarity higher. For example, a Fighter (Common) that takes a level of Kensai would be treated as Uncommon. Rare characters that take a PrC ascend to Super-Rare.

    {table=head] Level | NPC | Common | Uncommon | Rare | Super-Rare
    1 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5
    2 | 2 | 4 | 6 | 8 | 10
    3 | 4 | 8 | 12 | 16 | 20
    4 | 7 | 14 | 21 | 28 | 35
    5 | 11 | 22 | 33 | 44 | 55
    6 | 16 | 32 | 48 | 64 | 80
    7 | 22 | 44 | 66 | 88 | 110
    8 | 29 | 58 | 87 | 116 | 145
    9 | 37 | 74 | 111 | 148 | 185
    10 | 46 | 92 | 138 | 184 | 230
    11 | 56 | 112 | 168 | 224 | 280
    12 | 67 | 134 | 201 | 268 | 335
    13 | 79 | 158 | 237 | 316 | 395
    14 | 92 | 184 | 276 | 368 | 460
    15 | 106 | 212 | 318 | 424 | 530
    16 | 121 | 242 | 363 | 484 | 605
    17 | 137 | 254 | 411 | 548 | 685
    18 | 154 | 308 | 462 | 616 | 770
    19 | 172 | 344 | 516 | 688 | 860
    20 | 191 | 382 | 573 | 764 | 955
    Epic | +100/level | +200/level | +300/level | +400/level | +500/level
    [/table]

    Epic Level Archmages: Pricey, but they can be worth it.

    Army Benchmarks:
    Tiny: 1,000
    Small: 12,000
    Medium: 5,000
    Large: 10,000
    Huge: 20,000
    Massive: 50,000

    If you do try to use this as a Wargame, I'd suggest imposing some limits on level and/or number of Heroes, to keep things balanced.

    Any creature with an LA is treated as a character of a level equal to LA+Racial HD(If any)+Class levels. All creatures without an LA use their CR as their "level". Creatures with a fractional CR are bought in corresponding increments (1/3 CR creatures are bought in groups of 3 for the cost of a single character of that level, etc.).

    An alternate version of leadership could award a character with Command equal to Leadership Score squared. Just sayin'.

    Preparation
    To make all of this a truly viable subsystem, a lot of prep work must be done. Each Hero and Unit must be statted out, including the 4/5, 3/5, 2/5 and 1/5 benchmarks for Health, Power and Population. Temporary Modifiers, such as those from things like Rage should have their effects calculated and noted beforehand. All of this is to allow gameplay to proceed smoothly and with as little computation as possible.

    Afterward
    I have done no playtesting of this whatsoever, and, as the blurb prior to the title would indicate, I have little to no Wargame experience. This may need tweaking to play. If you use it, please send me a PM telling me how it goes! I'll more than likely make fixes based on your feedback!
    Last edited by Welknair; 2012-03-16 at 02:11 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    I don't wish to discourage you, but I can name at least two systems for D&D that do the same thing as this. That said, at the moment, your system seems a bit cleaner than the others.

    My only question is: "If this turns D&D into a wargame, how will you handle resource management?" (i.e. food, wages, conscription, etc.)

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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    A cool idea, I'm always glad to see more of your work. One thing, though; your math seems slightly off. (40)*(10-1*2) = (40)*(10-2) = 40*(8) = 320, not 160. I also noticed that the hypothetical attacking force had a power of 20, which would result in said answer. Did you accidentally switch 20 and 40?
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    Fatigue makes me wax philosophic and/or babble. If I've posted something strange and tangential, that is probably the cause. This entry would be an example.

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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Scotchland View Post
    I don't wish to discourage you, but I can name at least two systems for D&D that do the same thing as this. That said, at the moment, your system seems a bit cleaner than the others.

    My only question is: "If this turns D&D into a wargame, how will you handle resource management?" (i.e. food, wages, conscription, etc.)
    Eh, I had figured as much. But I am paradoxically too lazy to look up other systems, and active enough to make my own.

    I haven't really considered resources, given that my original idea was just to model large-scale combat, not entire nations. Though I suppose that protracted conflicts would bring up issues such as gear and food. The "Wage/Conscription" issue is a bit beyond the purview of this system, still. The PHB has rules for hirelings, and Epic Leadership also can provide a decent benchmark for commanded soldiers. Alternatively, you can model financial restrictions on hired soldiers through my Command Value system. Costs for gear and the like would likely just be a function of how rich a given nation is.
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    Welknair, you are like... some living avatar of win. Who's made of win. And wields win as if it were but a toy. Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Virdish
    Welknair you are a god among men. Thank you for creating a playground for the completely insane.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark
    There have also been times where I was jealous of your ingenuity and skills.

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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by radmelon View Post
    A cool idea, I'm always glad to see more of your work. One thing, though; your math seems slightly off. (40)*(10-1*2) = (40)*(10-2) = 40*(8) = 320, not 160. I also noticed that the hypothetical attacking force had a power of 20, which would result in said answer. Did you accidentally switch 20 and 40?
    Sorry, seems like I posted just after you did, causing me to overlook your response!

    Yes, it seems I have made an embarrassing mathematical mistake!

    I have also finished the rest of the main stuff, including a slight alteration of the core damage mechanic, so I need to change that anyways! I'll probably post it all a bit later today, assuming people are interested. I believe I cover everything addressed at the end of the main post, save for mounted combat and siege weaponry, neither of which should be too tough.

    Edit: Added a lot. Only thing I didn't add was Hero rules, because I need to skedaddle. Feedback appreciated!

    Editedit: Added Hero stuff too. Still need to come up with stuff for alternate-sized creatures, mounted combat, combat skills, and siege weaponry. I may also add stuff for supplies and how commands are issued.
    Last edited by Welknair; 2012-03-07 at 12:50 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    I must say this is quite interesting. One thing I'm wondering is why skills are ignored. Sure Eschew materials would be almost totally irrelevant for this, but weapon focus' effect translates through with ease, and hold the line and phalanx fighting are made for this situation, and wouldn't be to hard to implement.
    Hold the line: Something where they deal melee damage first during the first round of engagement.
    Phalanx fighting: Get the AC bonuses to Defense, and slight resistance to AoO effects.

    Also, Between the costs of hirelings, the daily needs and costs thereof, and leadership/skill checks, then food, wages, and conscription is covered.
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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by jojolagger View Post
    I must say this is quite interesting. One thing I'm wondering is why skills are ignored. Sure Eschew materials would be almost totally irrelevant for this, but weapon focus' effect translates through with ease, and hold the line and phalanx fighting are made for this situation, and wouldn't be to hard to implement.
    Hold the line: Something where they deal melee damage first during the first round of engagement.
    Phalanx fighting: Get the AC bonuses to Defense, and slight resistance to AoO effects.

    Also, Between the costs of hirelings, the daily needs and costs thereof, and leadership/skill checks, then food, wages, and conscription is covered.
    I think you mean feats? Bonus feats are not ignored, and thus Fighters CAN get their iconic feats which do translate over. I've been planning on revising this anyway, though. Originally it was to simplify things, but I think it loses a little much.

    As for actual skills, I do intend to make mechanics for skills like Climb for Units.

    I also intend to make use of special actions (such as charge) as well as many feats from CW and Heroes of Battle, such as those you mentioned. A little translation work is still necessary, however, though it shouldn't be too tough.
    Last edited by Welknair; 2012-03-07 at 09:29 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    Hrm, I like the cut of your gib. It seems like a nice system to use for the Orc Warlord Arena I tried to do last year around this time but stalled as I got lost in details. I don't have the time to really push further in that right now (Too many people clamoring for me to finish my Gunslinger Handbook already, gods! ) but this looks to be a neat bit of stuff for how to manage the combats, while what I have is a place to start a warband from. Homebrew Power!
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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    I actually started writing a system like this one a while back. I realize this is your project, but if you want, I'll give you the notes from my attempt.

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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    Hrm, I like the cut of your gib. It seems like a nice system to use for the Orc Warlord Arena I tried to do last year around this time but stalled as I got lost in details. I don't have the time to really push further in that right now (Too many people clamoring for me to finish my Gunslinger Handbook already, gods! ) but this looks to be a neat bit of stuff for how to manage the combats, while what I have is a place to start a warband from. Homebrew Power!
    I didn't notice until I was reading through your Warlord thread, but this works out very well for E6! Levels 1-5 work just the same as before, and Level 6 characters are Hero Units! That was quite the coincidence

    Quote Originally Posted by Scotchland View Post
    I actually started writing a system like this one a while back. I realize this is your project, but if you want, I'll give you the notes from my attempt.
    Sure, why not! If I get inspiration from it or find bits that I'd like to add directly, I will of course give you due credit.


    I did a lot more work today, including stats for mounted combat as well as a lot of other things that may come up. Big things I still want to work on are siege weaponry and Martial Adepts. The latter of which is proving a tad tricky. Sadly, I don't have enough time right now to post my latest material. I will do so as soon as I find the time.
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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Welknair View Post
    Big things I still want to work on are siege weaponry and Martial Adepts. The latter of which is proving a tad tricky. Sadly, I don't have enough time right now to post my latest material. I will do so as soon as I find the time.
    Siege weapons could be treated as squads of however many siege engineers, and a certain number of siege engineers per siege engine. with damage and range based on their siege engines, and no/fractional move.

    Give Martial adepts something like for X attacks in Y turns they can get a boost to skill, power, or defense. Either they hit better, hit harder, or hit so they're more safe. Base X, Y and the amount of bonus on which Adept and your set.

    Also, Why go with 50 units and measure unit strength in units of 25%, when 50 doesn't evenly divide by 4? Which leads to an interesting idea where the system gets build to work with troops number an multiple of X (10? 50? 100?). So having two small Divisions fight in this system doesn't have almost the exact same number of 'units' involved as two platoons fighting under normal D&D rules.
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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by jojolagger View Post
    Siege weapons could be treated as squads of however many siege engineers, and a certain number of siege engineers per siege engine. with damage and range based on their siege engines, and no/fractional move.

    Give Martial adepts something like for X attacks in Y turns they can get a boost to skill, power, or defense. Either they hit better, hit harder, or hit so they're more safe. Base X, Y and the amount of bonus on which Adept and your set.

    Also, Why go with 50 units and measure unit strength in units of 25%, when 50 doesn't evenly divide by 4? Which leads to an interesting idea where the system gets build to work with troops number an multiple of X (10? 50? 100?). So having two small Divisions fight in this system doesn't have almost the exact same number of 'units' involved as two platoons fighting under normal D&D rules.
    I was thinking something similar for both the Siege Engines and Martial Adepts. The first is just a matter of deciding stats for the different types. Might have to do a smidge of research there. The latter was a bit more troublesome, as I'd like to have at least slight difference between the different types of MAs. For example, how do I simulate Sword Sages having a wider array of Maneuvers, but a lower BAB? Hmmph.

    As for the number and divisions.. Well, with 50ft squares, that's 10 5ft squares X 10 5ft squares, for a total of 100 spaces. But realistically, you'd never fill that entirely with soldiers. So I went for half that - 50. The fourths was just a random benchmark for determining when effectiveness decreased. Now that I think about it, using Fifths would probably be much simpler.
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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    I'd just like to point out that this is pretty maths heavy. As a veteran wargamer, going to point out that maths above single figure add and subtract, kills the flow of the game.

    This looks fine until my previous experience kicks in. I'd consider rethinking the damage mechanics or including a big-ass table that would allow damage calculation fast.
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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
    I'd just like to point out that this is pretty maths heavy. As a veteran wargamer, going to point out that maths above single figure add and subtract, kills the flow of the game.

    This looks fine until my previous experience kicks in. I'd consider rethinking the damage mechanics or including a big-ass table that would allow damage calculation fast.
    I see what you mean. I tried to simplify things by having things like the Health and Power stats calculated prior, but the weird multiplication seems to still be too much. Hmmmm. I'll work something out, quite possibly including rounding Powers to some nice, easily divisible number for the purpose of making such a table. I also have a table for Command Values, using very much tweaked formulae because the first ones were ridiculous at higher levels.

    Edit: I think I may have a solution. What if instead of a weird variable formula, dealing damage based on Margin of Failure, it was just a flat "Full damage if equal to or above Defense, half damage if below"? It would have the same effect and be much easier to deal with. You'd still want to write it out beforehand, but it is no longer a massive chore, especially considering temporary modifiers that would need half-damage values themselves. What do you guys think of that solution?

    EditEdit: Made a lot of edits, including the above damage system fix, martial adept support, special combat situations, and a couple of other little things. Feedback appreciated, as always.

    Editeditedit: Added stuff for various types of gear you may have been wondering about.

    Editediteditedit: Added new Command Points table.
    Last edited by Welknair; 2012-03-08 at 06:04 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    *Shameless bump*

    I would really appreciate some more feedback on this system. Do you guys think it does a decent job of representing large-scale D&D combat? Suggestions or fixes?

    I have the majority of the Siege Engine stats done and will likely be posting them soon. I also plan to over time add specific support for more base classes, feats, and items.
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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    How would the flow between Mass Combat and Regular Combat work?
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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Maquise View Post
    How would the flow between Mass Combat and Regular Combat work?
    Effectively, Mass Combat is a "Game Mode" - While in Mass Combat, you use Mass Combat rules instead of standard combat rules. Time moves in minutes, space in 50ft increments and so on. In most instances in which you'd be using Mass Combat, there would be little or no Regular Combat taking place. The only time I think that'd occur is if two opposed Heroes encounter one another and the group decides to play the encounter out round-by-round.

    Let's have an example. Standard D&D game, four PCs acting as the only friendly Heroes on the side of Good. The DM controls the BBEG's Lieutenant, an Enemy Hero. The battle between these two forces starts per usual, the conflict progressing in Mass Combat. The PCs get some potshots off, Aiding a friendly unit. The Lieutenant appears on the wall behind the PCs and they give chase. This chase scene, as well as the ensuing conflict between this villain and the PCs, would be played out with Regular Combat. Every 10 rounds the DM would go through the motions of playing out all the soldiers. I think this would be best, in such a situation. Alternatively, the DM could opt to keep things in Mass Combat, but obviously it isn't geared towards small, detailed conflicts such as that between mid-to-high-level characters. In fact, it's geared towards the opposite.

    The other use of this system, as a Wargame, would have a very similar flow. Only the players controlling the forces would move them each 10 rounds, instead of the solitary Dungeon Master.

    That make any sense?

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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    The system looks good, if somewhat complex, but as Jojolagger said, it would be nice if the scale could be made variable, for different sizes of forces.
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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    I'm planning on playtesting this in a Pathfinder game and am wondering how the Cavalier's class features would work. This seems like a place where they should shine.
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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by radmelon View Post
    The system looks good, if somewhat complex, but as Jojolagger said, it would be nice if the scale could be made variable, for different sizes of forces.
    By "Size", do you mean Size Categories, or the population of each unit? Because I currently have support for deviations from the average in both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maquise View Post
    I'm planning on playtesting this in a Pathfinder game and am wondering how the Cavalier's class features would work. This seems like a place where they should shine.
    Pretty much anything with Auras shines here. Looking up the Cavalier now.

    *Hold Music*

    Supplementary Cavaliers would grant the benefit of their Teamwork Feat from Tactician. I'd say a +1 to defense would sound good, given Challenge protecting other soldiers in the unit from the more painful enemies. Banner is pretty self-explanatory - +1 to Skill on charge attacks. Currently I have no sort of Morale system implemented and it isn't currently on my to-do list.

    A Hero Cavalier would be able to confer these benefits on any unit that they are Aiding.
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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    I meant size as in population, from platoons to battalions. Because just having 1 unit on each side for a small-but-still-unmanagable-at-normal-scale fight is just boring.
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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by radmelon View Post
    I meant size as in population, from platoons to battalions. Because just having 1 unit on each side for a small-but-still-unmanagable-at-normal-scale fight is just boring.
    Do note that I said the maximum population was 50, not that all Units had to start out that large. All the formulas scale based on population. Though I suppose smaller spaces would be warranted by smaller units to allow a decent level of description of troop movements. Hmm. I may make a set of adjustments for the small-scale version of these rules.

    Yesterday my friends and I tested the system, and things went pretty well. Two teams of three, 2,500 command and 300,000gp per team. 2,500 turned out to buy a lot less than I thought it would. We learned a lot about what worked and what didn't, resulting in several tweaks (such as to the Supplement Cleric effects) and a couple new rules I will type up soon.
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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Welknair View Post
    Do note that I said the maximum population was 50, not that all Units had to start out that large. All the formulas scale based on population. Though I suppose smaller spaces would be warranted by smaller units to allow a decent level of description of troop movements. Hmm. I may make a set of adjustments for the small-scale version of these rules.
    Ah, thanks. That clears things up somewhat. Also, me and some friends of mine were planning to give this a test next weekend or so, see how well it works.
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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by radmelon View Post
    Ah, thanks. That clears things up somewhat. Also, me and some friends of mine were planning to give this a test next weekend or so, see how well it works.
    Ah, very cool! I'd love to hear how it goes!
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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    One thing I noticed about your rarity-cost ratio is that it remains the same as units increase in level. Since rarity is determined primarily on spellcasting or spellcasting-ish abilities, and spellcasters are only more powerful than nonspellcasters at higher levels ("quadratic vs. linear," as the saying goes), this ratio should probably be altered.

    I would also recommend using CR instead of level to determine cost, as a monster's "levels" are its Hit Dice, which are not a good indicator of power level (compare ogre mages with satyrs, for example). This also removes the need for an NPC column, as each level in an NPC class counts as only half a point of CR (all NPCs would simply be Common).

    Now I'm not an expert on balance, but since I feel bad only indicating the problem and not offering an actual solution, here is a possible table I thought up that I think might probably work:

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    {table=head]CR | Common | Uncommon | Rare | Super-Rare
    Below 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1
    1 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2
    2 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4
    3 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8
    4 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14
    5 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25
    6 | 32 | 34 | 36 | 38
    7 | 44 | 48 | 52 | 56
    8 | 58 | 64 | 70 | 76
    9 | 74 | 84 | 94 | 104
    10 | 92 | 106 | 120 | 134
    11 | 112 | 132 | 152 | 172
    12 | 134 | 170 | 196 | 222
    13 | 158 | 194 | 230 | 266
    14 | 184 | 230 | 276 | 322
    15 | 212 | 274 | 336 | 398
    16 | 242 | 320 | 398 | 476
    17 | 254 | 358 | 462 | 566
    18 | 308 | 438 | 568 | 698
    19 | 344 | 500 | 656 | 812
    20 | 382 | 564 | 746 | 928
    Epic | +200/level | +300/level | +400/level | +500/level[/table]
    Last edited by Tarvon000; 2012-03-12 at 09:42 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarvon000 View Post
    One thing I noticed about your rarity-cost ratio is that it remains the same as units increase in level. Since rarity is determined primarily on spellcasting or spellcasting-ish abilities, and spellcasters are only more powerful than nonspellcasters at higher levels ("quadratic vs. linear," as the saying goes), this ratio should probably be altered.

    I would also recommend using CR instead of level to determine cost, as a monster's "levels" are its Hit Dice, which are not a good indicator of power level (compare ogre mages with satyrs, for example). This also removes the need for an NPC column, as each level in an NPC class counts as only half a point of CR (all NPCs would simply be Common).

    Now I'm not an expert on balance, but since I feel bad only indicating the problem and not offering an actual solution, here is a possible table I thought up that I think might probably work:

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    {table=head]CR | Common | Uncommon | Rare | Super-Rare
    Below 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1
    1 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2
    2 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4
    3 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8
    4 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14
    5 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25
    6 | 32 | 34 | 36 | 38
    7 | 44 | 48 | 52 | 56
    8 | 58 | 64 | 70 | 76
    9 | 74 | 84 | 94 | 104
    10 | 92 | 106 | 120 | 134
    11 | 112 | 132 | 152 | 172
    12 | 134 | 170 | 196 | 222
    13 | 158 | 194 | 230 | 266
    14 | 184 | 230 | 276 | 322
    15 | 212 | 274 | 336 | 398
    16 | 242 | 320 | 398 | 476
    17 | 254 | 358 | 462 | 566
    18 | 308 | 438 | 568 | 698
    19 | 344 | 500 | 656 | 812
    20 | 382 | 564 | 746 | 928
    Epic | +200/level | +300/level | +400/level | +500/level[/table]
    Hate to shoot down the table, but making casters cheaper is a bad idea. Also, Please remember the monsters would be using HD+LA, not just HD, which is more fitting than CR when something is Player Controlled.
    Honestly, Considering how units level 1-5 work, and how heros work in this system, the costs seem fairly balanced.
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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by jojolagger View Post
    Hate to shoot down the table, but making casters cheaper is a bad idea. Also, Please remember the monsters would be using HD+LA, not just HD, which is more fitting than CR when something is Player Controlled.
    Honestly, Considering how units level 1-5 work, and how heros work in this system, the costs seem fairly balanced.
    Yup, the expense at low levels was intentional. Cost is such that unless you have a very large force, you'll only have paltry casters. Even at a low level, their versatility makes up for sheer strength. Of course any users of this system could choose to change the point-values of characters for their own use.

    As for the HD v CR v HD+LA issue.. I kinda did no thinking about that whatsoever. After a bit of thought, I think that HD+LA would be the easiest and most accurate.
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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Welknair View Post
    Yup, the expense at low levels was intentional. Cost is such that unless you have a very large force, you'll only have paltry casters. Even at a low level, their versatility makes up for sheer strength. Of course any users of this system could choose to change the point-values of characters for their own use.

    As for the HD v CR v HD+LA issue.. I kinda did no thinking about that whatsoever. After a bit of thought, I think that HD+LA would be the easiest and most accurate.
    One of my plans for Rad's playtest was to get 50 level 5 druids, get them Bear animal companions, have them wild-shape into bears, and have 100 bears smash the enemy lines. But it cost 2200 points, for a planned 1500 point game.
    So far, the army with the most casters I've made with the 1500 points has 10 clerics, 30 Bards, and 10 sorcerers, All acting as supplemental Units.

    Also, Why no Fast healing or regeneration on the special list?
    Might I suggest Fast Healing Works like healing, in that it is limited to the max Health for the health level their in, where as regeneration can bring it up above that level (thought maybe with some limit of only one level above the lowest, so hitting them hard enough still hurts them if they manage to run away).
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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by jojolagger View Post
    One of my plans for Rad's playtest was to get 50 level 5 druids, get them Bear animal companions, have them wild-shape into bears, and have 100 bears smash the enemy lines. But it cost 2200 points, for a planned 1500 point game.
    So far, the army with the most casters I've made with the 1500 points has 10 clerics, 30 Bards, and 10 sorcerers, All acting as supplemental Units.

    Also, Why no Fast healing or regeneration on the special list?
    Might I suggest Fast Healing Works like healing, in that it is limited to the max Health for the health level their in, where as regeneration can bring it up above that level (thought maybe with some limit of only one level above the lowest, so hitting them hard enough still hurts them if they manage to run away).
    Oh, you're participating in Rad's playtest? Would it be intrusive of me to ask if you know each other IRL? Because that would explain a deal. Do of course post how it goes!

    As for army sizes, as you've probably realized 1500 points, or the 2500 I dealt with, buys far less than you'd imagine, especially when you want casters of some sort. Not exactly "Moderately sized armies". For a playtest, it's more than sufficient, however. Probably going to tweak the benchmarks.

    As for Regeneration and Fast Healing, the lack of those on the list is simply due to this being a new and incomplete system. I have a list of various things I want to add support for, including a ton of feats, class features, spells, and miscellaneous other things. Currently I'm focusing on siege weapons and walls. I agree with your assessment of how those two should work. Fast Healing would heal Pop*Healing factor*10 per Mass Combat round, starting the round after the damage is taken, to a max of the current health level. Regeneration is a bit trickier.. What HD+LA or Level 5 or lower creature/character are you looking at using that has Regeneration?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daverin View Post
    Welknair, you are like... some living avatar of win. Who's made of win. And wields win as if it were but a toy. Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Virdish
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark
    There have also been times where I was jealous of your ingenuity and skills.

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    Default Re: [3.5e Mechanics] Mass Combat (PEACH)

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