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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Jodah's Avatar

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    Default My First Gish (PEACH)

    EDIT: This is a massive overhaul from what i originally posted. Thank you to everyone who helped me fix it up thus far.

    This is my plan for my first gish character. I will likely change things as suggestions are made. The main purpose of the character is to be able to tank.

    {table=head]Level|Class|Feats

    1st|Warblade|Combat Casting, Dodge

    2nd|Generic Spellcaster|Practiced Caster

    3rd|Warblade|Mobility

    4th|Warblade|

    5th|Warblade|

    6th|Warblade|Improved Initiative, Combat Focus

    7th|Abjurant Champ|

    8th|Abjurant Champ|

    9th|Abjurant Champ|Elusive Target

    10th|Abjurant Champ|

    11th|Abjurant Champ|

    12th|Jade Phoenix Mage|Battle Casting

    13th|Jade Phoenix Mage|

    14th|Jade Phoenix Mage|

    15th|Jade Phoenix Mage|Combat Defense

    16th|Jade Phoenix Mage|

    17th|Argent Savant|

    18th|Argent Savant|Combat Vigor

    19th|Jade Phoenix Mage|

    20th|Jade Phoenix Mage|[/table]

    Final maneuver selection at character level chosen:
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    Level 1
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    Sapphire Nightmare Blade
    Steel Wind
    Moment of of Perfect Mind

    Level 3
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    Charging Minotaur

    Level 4
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    Emerald Razor

    Level 6
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    White Raven Tactics

    Level 12
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    Shield Block

    Level 14
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    Divine Surge

    Level 16
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    Castigating Strike

    Level 20
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    Inferno Blade


    Stances by character level:
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    Level 2
    Punishing Stance
    Level 5
    Stone-foot Stance
    Level 13
    Mystic Phoenix Stance
    Level 16
    Aura of Chaos
    Level 19
    Firebird Stance


    Spells by character level:
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    Level 1
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    Cure Minor Wound
    Mage Hand
    Read Magic
    Detect Magic
    Shield
    Mage Armor

    Level 7
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    Prestidigitation

    Level 8
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    Lesser Deflect

    Level 9
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    Resistance
    Dimension Hop

    Level 10
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    Magic Missile
    Spiritual Weapon

    Level 11
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    Light
    Greater Mage Armor

    Level 13
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    Lesser Vigor
    Brambles
    Greater Mighty Wallop

    Level 14
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    Create Water
    Eye of the Hurricane

    Level 15
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    Wraith Strike
    Vampiric Touch
    Freedom of Movement

    Level 16
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    Bigby's Interposing Hand

    Level 18
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    Baleful Transportation
    Mass Mage Armor
    Bite of the Werewolf
    Greater Vigor

    Level 20
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    Tenser's Transformation

    Last edited by Jodah; 2012-03-12 at 07:11 PM.
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    SamBurke's Avatar

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    Default Re: My First Gish (PEACH)

    So, let's look at it: you have eight levels of Wizard, giving you fourth level spells at... 14th level. Not too shabby.

    Still made it to 16 BAB, which is always a goal.

    Question: what spell list is this from?
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    Jodah's Avatar

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    Default Re: My First Gish (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by SamBurke View Post
    Question: what spell list is this from?
    I used the generic caster from UA, so any spell on the Sorc/Wiz or (non-domain) Cleric lists.
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    Default Re: My First Gish (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jodah View Post
    I used the generic caster from UA, so any spell on the Sorc/Wiz or (non-domain) Cleric lists.
    Oh, no, no no, my friend. The spellcaster also gets to choose from the druid spell list! So you should check that out as well.

    Now, in order to best help you, we need to know: what kind of spellcaster are you? I assume, since you're going warblade, that you're an Int-based arcane spellcaster?
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    Default Re: My First Gish (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    Oh, no, no no, my friend. The spellcaster also gets to choose from the druid spell list! So you should check that out as well.

    Now, in order to best help you, we need to know: what kind of spellcaster are you? I assume, since you're going warblade, that you're an Int-based arcane spellcaster?
    That is correct, on both counts. I forgot about the druid list in my response, but I did consult it. Thank you for reminding me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbin View Post
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    NeoSeraphi's Avatar

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    Default Re: My First Gish (PEACH)

    Lesser vigor (Complete Divine/Spell Compendium) is a better 1st level heal at 14th than cure light wounds. Gives you 15 hit points instead of 1d8+5.
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: My First Gish (PEACH)

    A few questions:

    Why Heighten Spell?

    What is the goal of Arcane Thesis for Mage Armor?


    I also feel that I should point out something cool that you can do: Brambles (Druid, SpC) and Greater Might Wallop (Sor/Wiz, RotD) on a quarterstaff gives you a great damage output and saves you the need of Eschew Materials, since you can hold the quarterstaff in 1 hand while casting spells (letting go and re-grabbing are free actions).


    As for tanking potential, consider Vampiric Touch. It gives you offensive capability along with temp hp to soak up blows. There's even the Bloodstone weapon property (MIC) that acts as Spell Storing for Vampiric Touch, only. It also gives you a free Empower.

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    Default Re: My First Gish (PEACH)

    Not to ask too simple of a question, but which hand are you going to be using for somatic components?

    Where are you getting your damage for TWF, if you aren't using Stormguard Warrior or similar?

    And what's going on with Easy Metamagic + Heighten?
    I figured that would have something to do with Argent Savant entry, but it doesn't look like it does.

    Have you been looking at the prerequisites for your maneuvers? There's at least one you don't qualify for (WRT), but I don't feel particularly inclined to straighten it out for more.

    And your spell list is, well, really bad. Neither Spiritual Weapon nor Magic Missile do enough damage to justify the casting action, Cure Light wounds is an inexpensive wand and Explosive Runes probably isn't going to help a gish at all. Shield and Dimension Hop are the only spells there that I'd keep.

    If you're going into Abjurant Champion, you might want to look up some abjurations to fill your low-level slots, due to the auto-quicken and their frequent synergy with gish tactics. The Cleric list has some nice ones.

    And those spoiler boxes make this really difficult to read.
    Last edited by eggs; 2012-03-12 at 01:52 PM.

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    Jodah's Avatar

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    Default Re: My First Gish (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elric VIII View Post
    A few questions:

    Why Heighten Spell?

    What is the goal of Arcane Thesis for Mage Armor?
    Easy meta magic, heighten spell, and arcane thesis let me qualify for argent savant. Need 5th level force spell, so I "cheated" and made mage armor count. Mage armor was chosen because I needed to choose something.

    I also feel that I should point out something cool that you can do: Brambles (Druid, SpC) and Greater Might Wallop (Sor/Wiz, RotD) on a quarterstaff gives you a great damage output and saves you the need of Eschew Materials, since you can hold the quarterstaff in 1 hand while casting spells (letting go and re-grabbing are free actions).
    I like the idea of 4d6+10 (+whatever the maneuvers do). It would also, I suppose, open up a good deal of feats because I would have to eliminate the TWF line (and a few maneuvers). I will be considering it though

    As for tanking potential, consider Vampiric Touch. It gives you offensive capability along with temp hp to soak up blows. There's even the Bloodstone weapon property (MIC) that acts as Spell Storing for Vampiric Touch, only. It also gives you a free Empower.
    Another consideration. The question here is which is better, mass resist energy or vampiric touch?
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: My First Gish (PEACH)

    If I may, for a gish you would be well served to look into the Jade Phoenix Mage PrC. You get the same initiator level boosts, but you would get more spellcasting, which is always good for a gish. If you replace the last 9 levels with JPM you would net seventh level spells, two maneuvers known, two maneuvers readied, and an additional point of BAB. You would also free up three of your feats from not having to qualify for Argent savant. The cost would be a reasonable 2 AC and 20 HP, which you should be more than able to make up with the bonus spell levels. Best part? You already qualify by level 12.

    A few other points - swap the first levels of Warblade and Generic Caster in order to get the Warblade's maxed hit dice and better skill points quadrupled. Have you considered Luminous Armor? By RAW you would have to UMD a Runestaff for it or spend a feat on Extra Spell, but it would net you a whopping 6 AC over Mage Armor and -4 penalty against enemy melee attacking you. Just a few thoughts.
    Last edited by Grendus; 2012-03-12 at 02:03 PM.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: My First Gish (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jodah View Post
    Easy meta magic, heighten spell, and arcane thesis let me qualify for argent savant. Need 5th level force spell, so I "cheated" and made mage armor count. Mage armor was chosen because I needed to choose something.
    Just keep in mind, you're burning 3 feats and 1 spellcasting level for the +2AC for force spells. Not a good opportunity cost.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jodah View Post
    Another consideration. The question here is which is better, mass resist energy or vampiric touch?
    How does wand use for generic work? Because enery resist is much more situational and less CL dependent.

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    Jodah's Avatar

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    Default Re: My First Gish (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grendus View Post
    If I may, for a gish you would be well served to look into the Jade Phoenix Mage PrC. You get the same initiator level boosts, but you would get more spellcasting, which is always good for a gish. If you replace the last 9 levels with JPM you would net seventh level spells, two maneuvers known, two maneuvers readied, and an additional point of BAB. You would also free up three of your feats from not having to qualify for Argent savant. The cost would be a reasonable 2 AC and 20 HP, which you should be more than able to make up with the bonus spell levels. Best part? You already qualify by level 12.

    A few other points - swap the first levels of Warblade and Generic Caster in order to get the Warblade's maxed hit dice and better skill points quadrupled. Have you considered Luminous Armor? By RAW you would have to UMD a Runestaff for it or spend a feat on Extra Spell, but it would net you a whopping 6 AC over Mage Armor and -4 penalty against enemy melee attacking you. Just a few thoughts.
    I think what I would do instead is keep the argent savant (it is actually 4AC [shield and mage armor] and it lessens damage from things like spiritual weapon which can be pretty good) but move into JPM at level 12 and 15+. Don't know why I discounted this earlier, it is actually really good.

    Also...DAMN YOU SANCTIFIED SPELLS!! I would probably just need a DM fiat on this one, but it's nice to know it's there. This would likely just be a -4 to everyone, but I'm good with that.
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    Default Re: My First Gish (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elric VIII View Post
    How does wand use for generic work? Because enery resist is much more situational and less CL dependent.
    Good point...I need to play casters more often so I can remember wands...always forget. Vampiric touch it is.
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: My First Gish (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jodah View Post
    Good point...I need to play casters more often so I can remember wands...always forget. Vampiric touch it is.
    In my experience, a good utility/defensive caster will have enough wands to have a Tarrasque-sized bonfire.


    I would also recommend against Argent Savant, unless you are really attatched to it. I would et levels 8 and 9 of JPM (10 is meh, so don't stress over that). Since I see you have altered your build to get more caster levels, anyway, you might want to go with Magic Vestment for armor boosting. Depending upon your DM's reading, you can get some Mithril, Twilight, Feycraft armor (reduce ASF to 0% on a half-plate, IIRC) and put some Defending Armor Spikes on it and cast Greater Magic Weapon on them for additional AC.


    Also, remember that Extend Spell is one of the best gish feats. Depending upon your ending spellcasting ability, Persist can make an excellent 18th level feat to persist your 1st/2nd level buffs (hello 24-hour Wraithstrike).


    On my Clerics, two of my favorite defense spells are Close Wounds (immediate action, heals 1d4 + 1-5 hp) or Delay Death (immediate action, you can take any amount of damage and not die, just remain incapacitated for 1rd/level).

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    Default Re: My First Gish (PEACH)

    Thank you, to those who have offered advice. I have instated some of the changes you suggested.

    Elric: Unfortunately, even with the boost to casting levels that I have now, I still only get to 6th level spells. As such, persist is not an option, which saddens me a little.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: My First Gish (PEACH)

    It's looking good. I would still recommend heavily against Argent Savant though, you're trading an effective caster level (an entire spell level ffs) and a point of BAB (which, with Abjurant Champion 5 is a caster level) for +4 AC. That's a very heavy trade off. Other than that though, it's good.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: My First Gish (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jodah View Post
    Thank you, to those who have offered advice. I have instated some of the changes you suggested.

    Elric: Unfortunately, even with the boost to casting levels that I have now, I still only get to 6th level spells. As such, persist is not an option, which saddens me a little.
    Don't forget Easy Metamagic and Arcane Thesis.

    If you play as a dragonblooded character (Kobold, Silverbrow Human, Dragonborn) you cna also get Practical Metamagic for another -1. Depending upon the level you expect to reach, it can be worth it to get persist before you can use it and use the later feats to reduce its cost. But I don't recommend it unless you are sure to get to the point where you will be able to use it, because you will end up with a dead feat for a few levels.

    The thing about a gish is you run into the issue of spells can do anything you want, so why bother wth the melee part. So you will inevitably get advice that translates into "MORE CASTER LEVELS!"

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