Theoretical question to ponder for LOTR

[Traab]

We have seen that hobbits are strongly resistant to the one ring. We also saw frodo fail to toss the ring into the lava. We even saw Sam feel the effects for the brief time he held it while being so close to the cracks of doom. Here is the question. If Frodo had managed to bring the ring to mount doom, and suddenly a new hobbit, totally unconnected with the quest got dropped off by the eagles or whatever, would that new hobbit be able to throw the ring in?

Its easy to say yes, after all, saw was right up till the end telling him to chuck it and he WORE the thing briefly. But thats all it was, talk. Sort of like how bilbo was able to deal with the fact that the ring was going to be destroyed, and only slipped for that brief moment when he saw it again up close. Its one thing to SAY the ring must be destroyed, its another to actually do the deed while holding onto it. Same for elrond, he never touched the damn thing, so it was way easier for him to try and get isildur to throw it in. So, do you people think that even a brand new hobbit who was never touched by the rings effects, would be able to have the strength of will to throw it in?

[Dienekes]

By Tolkien, no. He's said something to the like of "Frodo shows that even the purist and noblest couldn't do away with the ring in it's place of power. But just getting it there was a task beyond any other, and his decisions in companions and mercy ultimately where what made him a hero." Mind you this is off my admittedly sketchy memory, so it should be taken with a grain of salt.

[WalkingTarget]

The quote you're thinking of is from one of Tolkien's published letters:

"I do not think that Frodo's was a moral failure. At the last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum - impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist..."

My interpretation of that is that the closest one gets to the Cracks of Doom, the harder it is for somebody to hold in their mind the intent to destroy the Ring.

On the graph of Willpower needed to Destroy the Ring vs. Distance from Mt. Doom, there's an asymptote leading up at 0 distance.

There's another quote somewhere about nobody of lesser will than Sauron could destroy it, so it might not be a true asymptote. That leaves it open to destruction by beings greater than Sauron, say, the Valar (or Eru Illuvatar of course).

[Traab]

Dangit I hate when Word of God ruins a perfectly good debate topic.

[nazgulnine]

Dangit I hate when Word of God ruins a perfectly good debate topic.

Haha, I'm a little disappointed I wasn't able to make the statements Dienekes and WalkingTarget made, since I just mentioned in another thread about how this scene greatly affected my childhood so. But I digress; good going you two!

[Traab]

Did tolkien ever explain why hobbits had the strongest innate resistance to the ring? If not then I have my own theories. Every race has its traits that can be twisted easily by the ring. Every race but one.

Men want honor and glory, they want to be strong and respected. The ring promises to make it so all their foes fall before them, they will win every battle, be admired by everyone around them, and rule absolutely for all time.

Elves are ancient and wise. Unfortunately, that wisdom and long life span are easily twisted into arrogance. "I have been alive for 5 thousand years. There is no way i could be tricked. I could use this ring and keep its taint from ever twisting me!" Wizards would be the same.

Dwarves have an innate greed for wealth. Once again, something that the ring can promise to deliver. "I can make you strong enough to destroy any dragon and take its horde. You can unite the dwarves under your banner, and all mines and smiths will operate in your name! You could build a mountain from the gold gems and precious metals that will be yours if you wield me." I submit thorin oakenshield as evidence, for those who have read the hobbit.

Hobbits on the other hand, they have no grand ambitions. They like peace and quiet, they like to smoke, to eat good food, drink good beer, and spend time with their friends. They dont generally want power or wealth or glory. The best the ring could do to sam was to promise him that he could turn all of mordor into a garden of such beauty the elves would be jealous, or some such thing. There really isnt that much there for the ring to work with. Other than that garden idea, the most it can work with is, "Im yours, why should you let me go?"

[WalkingTarget]

Did tolkien ever explain why hobbits had the strongest innate resistance to the ring? If not then I have my own theories. Every race has its traits that can be twisted easily by the ring. Every race but one.

Men want honor and glory, they want to be strong and respected. The ring promises to make it so all their foes fall before them, they will win every battle, be admired by everyone around them, and rule absolutely for all time.

Elves are ancient and wise. Unfortunately, that wisdom and long life span are easily twisted into arrogance. "I have been alive for 5 thousand years. There is no way i could be tricked. I could use this ring and keep its taint from ever twisting me!" Wizards would be the same.

Dwarves have an innate greed for wealth. Once again, something that the ring can promise to deliver. "I can make you strong enough to destroy any dragon and take its horde. You can unite the dwarves under your banner, and all mines and smiths will operate in your name! You could build a mountain from the gold gems and precious metals that will be yours if you wield me." I submit thorin oakenshield as evidence, for those who have read the hobbit.

Hobbits on the other hand, they have no grand ambitions. They like peace and quiet, they like to smoke, to eat good food, drink good beer, and spend time with their friends. They dont generally want power or wealth or glory. The best the ring could do to sam was to promise him that he could turn all of mordor into a garden of such beauty the elves would be jealous, or some such thing. There really isnt that much there for the ring to work with. Other than that garden idea, the most it can work with is, "Im yours, why should you let me go?"

I think that's a pretty good rundown.

I'd add that the Elves (especially the Noldor) were originally tempted by the whole Rings of Power fiasco due to a desire to hold back the passage of time - to force the world around them into a semblance of unchanging eternity that they themselves represented (and that the Noldor had seen personally in Valinor). Preservation is a power common to all of the Rings.

Also, for the Istari I'd probably think of it as a desire to make things work right (a fitting desire for the Stewards of Arda). It's the Doctor Doom desire: the world should be under better management, and I'm just the guy to do it! This is pretty much explicitly what Sauron and Saruman's (and even Melkor's) fall was based on to some extent.

Your points on Hobbits is pretty much just what I always got out of it. Sam's relinquishing of the Ring was even presaged by Bombadil. The Ring had no power over Tom because Tom has taken something like a "vow of poverty" - he delights in things for themselves, but the pull of power and control no longer has any way to snare him. Sam's greatest desires are so down-to-earth that he's able to shrug off the Ring's attempts to seduce him. That's not to say that I think that the Sackville-Bagginses or Ted Sandyman should be given a shot at carrying the Ring (Smeagol was something like a Hobbit once, after all).

[Omergideon]

Hobbits on the other hand, they have no grand ambitions. They like peace and quiet, they like to smoke, to eat good food, drink good beer, and spend time with their friends. They dont generally want power or wealth or glory. The best the ring could do to sam was to promise him that he could turn all of mordor into a garden of such beauty the elves would be jealous, or some such thing. There really isnt that much there for the ring to work with. Other than that garden idea, the most it can work with is, "Im yours, why should you let me go?"

Pretty much the rundown for the traditional Hobbit. They are generally happy with their lives as they stand. And the Shire satisfies the needs for food, drink and the like. With that they are content. And so with relatively puny desires to work with the ring cannot corrupt them as much. And Sam in particular I think rejects the Mordor Garden idea because he says "no-one could tend that big a garden themselves" or words to that effect. He recognises how humble he is and so is not tempted by pride, or glory or the like. But beyond that I do think Tolkien established the toughness of Hobbits, their stubborness and their humility as the main reasons for their extraordinary resistance to corruption.

Though another potential route to Sam, whilst on the journey is "It is so hard for others. Take the burden yourself. You can handle it....right?"


And Gandalf tells us how he himself would be corrupted. He would be corrupted by the desire to use the power to do good. He knows this. But generally you had the right idea for the main races and how they are affected. Though as well one of the common traits of men is that they fear Death as much as anything, and the ring promises immortality.