Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

[VanBuren]

It doesn't hurt that the Sharingan is the Swiss Army knife of ninja techniques.

[NineThePuma]

Okay, so, I'm about to vent in a manner that contains Chapter 599 spoilers.

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Okay, so Tobi is now officially Obito... Problem #1 with this is that Obito managed to become someone who could fight the fourth Hokage on even terms in less than a year. Like, seriously. If Kakashi became a jounin at 13 (placing Obito's death at 13), and is 26 when Naruto is 12 (academy graduation), that means that Obito had a single year to train up and be on level with the fourth hokage, and even if you consider the option that "Tobi" is an identity held by the original madara at that time (which is unlikely because the Edo Tensai revives them as they were around the point of death (Nagato shows this) and Madara was in his prime when he was revived) that means that an 84 year old Madara (as I'm reading this timeline) could keep up with Minato in his prime. Either the fourth Hokage was horribly horribly weak (and has since been surpassed by Kakashi), or the Mangekyo is so powerful that it would let a chunnin keep up with the S-rank Fourth Hokage.

Problem two is that Obito's motivations and character as shown in Kakashi Gaiden don't match up with Obito's later actions. If he'd survived the skirmish that lost him his eye, then why didn't he return to Konoha? It's not like he was abandoned intentionally. Kakashi Gaiden shows that he willingly gave Kakashi his eye after he died.

Problem 3 is that Tobi used Izanagi during the battle with Konan, and that cost him one of his eyes. where did he get his (third) Sharingan for his left eye? Did he pull a Danzo and steal the eye from one of the dead?

[Kato]

Hey, someone who has completely new arguments why Tobito doesn't make sense.

1) Has been discussed to death. With no proper answer but there are like a dzoen more or less probable or at least possible fan theories.

2) We have no idea what happened after KG. Maybe wait until that is resolved before you start ranting. Also, it might be entirely possible he decided on his own not to return Konoha but start his own war against wars culminating in the moon eye plan.

3) Yes, he has an enormous collection of Sharingan. I forgot the chapter but it was clearly shown at one point.

[NineThePuma]

It wasn't so much "rargh, this makes no sense, this is why!" it was more "rargh, this ****ty thing that was a theory years ago is now confirmed, even though tons of material since then rather pointedly disrupted that theory!" and me not having my usual person to vent it at.

Honestly, if you revealed the Tobi = Obito back during his partnership with Deidara, I would have been totally cool with it. It would have fit, been amusing, and Kakashi vs Tobi would have been my favorite battle ever.

Revealing it now just ruins pretty much all the mystery and build up, and ruins Kakashi Gaiden. We don't even know for sure that Rin's dead! Hell, the best time for Rin to have died is even the Kyuubi attack, which Obito is now behind!

It's just... it feels tacky and dumb and uncreative at this point, like Kishi finally was like "Oh, crap, who was I actually going to stick in there? Who's an Uchiha that wasn't at the massacre? Okay, GO!"

[Soras Teva Gee]

Problem 3 is that Tobi used Izanagi during the battle with Konan, and that cost him one of his eyes. where did he get his (third) Sharingan for his left eye? Did he pull a Danzo and steal the eye from one of the dead?[/spoiler]

IIRC we saw a collection of eyes so this isn't a real problem.

Where is an open question but there are plenty of reasonable answers to be had with an entire dead clan out there and Madara clearly behind the start of it opening generations to have a collection.

Now the real question is where did the Rinnegan's come from?

[jindra34]

Now the real question is where did the Rinnegan's come from?

Did you forget the whole reason Konan fought him was to prevent him from graverobbing Pain?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Did you forget the whole reason Konan fought him was to prevent him from graverobbing Pain?

That's two, what about the other six ex-hosts?

[Traab]

That's two, what about the other six ex-hosts?

I think they get the rinnegan by being possessed or whatever by pein. Didnt his summons also have the eyes?

[jindra34]

That's two, what about the other six ex-hosts?

Presumably the same way Pain did.

[VanBuren]

That's two, what about the other six ex-hosts?

Same way all of the Pain bodies and summons had them?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Same way all of the Pain bodies and summons had them?

Which is a closely related question.

[ThiagoMartell]

Which is a closely related question.

I think the Six Paths of Pain jutsu just gives the rinnegan to the paths.
The real question is... how did Nagato get his Rinnegan? Was Tobi involved? Was Madara involved? Was it simply in his blood?

[Closet_Skeleton]

Kurama had sharingan eyes when controlled by Tobi. That explains the summons and probably the Path bodies too.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I think the Six Paths of Pain jutsu just gives the rinnegan to the paths.
The real question is... how did Nagato get his Rinnegan? Was Tobi involved? Was Madara involved? Was it simply in his blood?

Yeah but I'm leaning on how we never asked about the Rinnegan much. Pain was mysterious and quasi-religious so it came out fine but once you start playing with throwing it around casually it really begs for a better explanation.

The rest I always called bull on that since the one who said it is a confirmed liar and we saw it on Nagato as a random kid. So going with a reappearance of a factor from his ancestry or even a repeat of whatever factor gave birth to it originally.

Now perhaps Madara (or I guess Obito maybe) helped him master it in some fashion or the like so its some kind of half-truth but that doesn't change it being "his" in that fashion.

[Madara]

Yeah but I'm leaning on how we never asked about the Rinnegan much. Pain was mysterious and quasi-religious so it came out fine but once you start playing with throwing it around casually it really begs for a better explanation.

The rest I always called bull on that since the one who said it is a confirmed liar and we saw it on Nagato as a random kid. So going with a reappearance of a factor from his ancestry or even a repeat of whatever factor gave birth to it originally.

Now perhaps Madara (or I guess Obito maybe) helped him master it in some fashion or the like so its some kind of half-truth but that doesn't change it being "his" in that fashion.

I'm betting on it being Madara's eyes. Earlier, Tobi had called Pein(Nagato) the "Third of the Six Paths", which recently I've believed to refer to those who have had the eyes.
1. The Original Sage
2. Madara
3. Nagato

It seems that the plan was to get someone else to use the Rinnegan for their purposes and to Ressurect Madara. They needed someone with considerable chakra, so they found an Uzumaki who had no knowledge of their clan's history or such.

[Soras Teva Gee]

As I said I can't take anything that Tobi said as "Madara" seriously since he's a confirmed liar, which is a fairly rare in fiction. And its one of those one line things with nothing backing it up. This manga does have a record of not supporting things mentioned off-hand.

Heck I have to take on faith it was scanlated accurately and doesn't have some subtle vagueness in Japanese I'm missing.

[ThiagoMartell]

Heck I have to take on faith it was scanlated accurately and doesn't have some subtle vagueness in Japanese I'm missing.

I remember when a scanlation saying the Chidori produces 'heightened flesh' made me and my friends deny it was a Raiton until Kakashi simply outright said it.
Looking back, it makes Sasuke very badass, for having dual elements so soon (even though elemental nature did not exist back then).

[Raimun]

I think the whole truth behind Tobi/Madara/Obito isn't out yet. If it is, I really hope they explain the following:

1) Year after (give or take) the kannabi bridge operation, Obito, the clumsy Uchiha, was somehow able to summon ninetails and fight equally against the 4th Hokage using intangibility.

2) Obito grew in height very quickly. Minato was 26 when he died. Obito would have been 14.

3) He also changed his world view dramatically. One year he's sacrificing himself for the sake of his team mates. The very next year he's trying to destroy the whole village with ninetails.

So what's my guess?

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He's like the Phantom. The masked "Madara" is a legacy identity. One reason he's wearing a mask is because it's not the same person forever. Obito is just one of them.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Tobi was leaking some weird stuff when his arm got wrecked fighting the Fourth. He probably got his body completely rebuilt with Zetsu or something to get that height.

Anyway, kids can gain a lot of height in a year.

[Socratov]

I believe Socratov is refering to the LIE Kakashi used way back when during his first fight with Zabuza.

no

I lost you there.

It doesn't hurt that the Sharingan is the Swiss Army knife of ninja techniques.

this.

it is explained somehwere in the start fo the manga (i believe during and before the battle between Sasuke and Naruto) that the sharingan speeds up the reaction sof the user by shortly seeïnginto the future (like a second or so) so the body can react faster to incoming stuff. the stronger the sharingan is, the further it can see, the quicker an Uchihaxx0r can react. it came across to me as "****, i need Sasuke to become faster. Ehm, how can I justify it? Oh right I know, I'll jsut tell them a sharingan has some ways of clairvoyance. With the plans I have for the sharinga Theyll accept it becuase it's gonna carry more bull**** anyway."

But the Sharingan basically gives the Wish SLA anyway for the cost of an eye, making it the ideal swiss army knife for just about anyone...

[Xondoure]

Yeah, that isn't actually true. It's a myth about the sharingan because since the eye is able to follow pretty much any movement it can seem like they're predicting your moves when really they're just taking cues off of tension in your body that signals preparation for movement.

[Traab]

Yeah, that isn't actually true. It's a myth about the sharingan because since the eye is able to follow pretty much any movement it can seem like they're predicting your moves when really they're just taking cues off of tension in your body that signals preparation for movement.

Even if THAT is the case there is still the issue of, how the hell does the uchiha even know what those millions of muscle twitches mean anyways? Yeah they can see them, but without a great deal of study over human bodies and movements, it just doesnt seem likely to be very precise. Or is it a matter of memorization? The first few times an uchiha with a sharingan fights, he gets his ass whipped, until he memorizes enough body movements to be able to predict with great accuracy what comes next?

[Raimun]

Even if THAT is the case there is still the issue of, how the hell does the uchiha even know what those millions of muscle twitches mean anyways? Yeah they can see them, but without a great deal of study over human bodies and movements, it just doesnt seem likely to be very precise. Or is it a matter of memorization? The first few times an uchiha with a sharingan fights, he gets his ass whipped, until he memorizes enough body movements to be able to predict with great accuracy what comes next?

Perhaps they can see simultaneously the present and up to one second to the future and can figure out the course of an attack from there. Basically attacks would look like clear lines for them.

I mean, if they only saw everything one second to the future, they would be pretty much unable to function in a fight. It would be as disorienting as lagging in online games: mind and body are not synchronized.

I do realize the above is wildly simplified but that's anime logic for you.
I'm more interested of how all the ninjas, even the kids, are able to leap from tree to tree... or from the ground on tree branches. I might be wrong but I think they have never explained how exactly they are able to do it.

Is it muscle strength? Then all ninjas would be known for their strong kicks.
Chakra? I thought "explosive" chakra-strength was really advanced stuff.
Gear? So all those sandals aren't just stylish stupid.
My guess? Because they're ninjas!

[Traab]

Perhaps they can see simultaneously the present and up to one second to the future and can figure out the course of an attack from there. Basically attacks would look like clear lines for them.

I mean, if they only saw everything one second to the future, they would be pretty much unable to function in a fight. It would be as disorienting as lagging in online games: mind and body are not synchronized.

I do realize the above is wildly simplified but that's anime logic for you.
I'm more interested of how all the ninjas, even the kids, are able to leap from tree to tree... or from the ground on tree branches. I might be wrong but I think they have never explained how exactly they are able to do it.

Is it muscle strength? Then all ninjas would be known for their strong kicks.
Chakra? I thought "explosive" chakra-strength was really advanced stuff.
Gear? So all those sandals aren't just stylish stupid.
My guess? Because they're ninjas!

My main question isnt how do they do it, but how can that even work?! I mean think about it. Is there all of three branches on every tree? How do they avoid slamming through or into other branches on their leap out of that tree and manage to land on a branch with enough clear space on it for a person to be without hitting their heads on another branch? They cant just launch themselves in a straight line, they have to be hopping in an arc, which means they leap UP, OVER, then fall DOWN, all without hitting any other part of the canopy but the branch they target? That doesnt make sense!

[Socratov]

simple: a wizard Sage of the six paths did it

[Fjolnir]

The leaping trick is a lesser version of the tree climbing trick, by forcing chakra through their muscles and channeling it to their feet, they can leap and stick themselves to the branches without falling...

[tyckspoon]

My main question isnt how do they do it, but how can that even work?! I mean think about it. Is there all of three branches on every tree? How do they avoid slamming through or into other branches on their leap out of that tree and manage to land on a branch with enough clear space on it for a person to be without hitting their heads on another branch? They cant just launch themselves in a straight line, they have to be hopping in an arc, which means they leap UP, OVER, then fall DOWN, all without hitting any other part of the canopy but the branch they target? That doesnt make sense!

I know this is kind of a rough bit of trivia to remember, but.. have we ever seen non-Konoha ninja doing the tree-leaping thing, or even Konoha ninja doing it in a place other than the forests around the Leaf Village? If not, then a reasonable explanation is available: The trees around Konoha are modified to permit this kind of travel, either grown (with probable Mokuton influence) or trimmed in such a way that they contain arboreal highways, and learning how to traverse those paths would be part of the standard training of a Leaf ninja.

[Antonok]

I know this is kind of a rough bit of trivia to remember, but.. have we ever seen non-Konoha ninja doing the tree-leaping thing, or even Konoha ninja doing it in a place other than the forests around the Leaf Village? If not, then a reasonable explanation is available: The trees around Konoha are modified to permit this kind of travel, either grown (with probable Mokuton influence) or trimmed in such a way that they contain arboreal highways, and learning how to traverse those paths would be part of the standard training of a Leaf ninja.

Well first thing comes to mind is during the Sasuke Retrieval ark the ninjas who're carrying sasuke are jumping and battling in the trees.

[NineThePuma]

Sand Siblings did something similar during the (First) invasion of konoha arc.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Given that just about the first thing that happens in the series is Naruto single handedly defacing the mountain then leading everyone on a merry chase and he's the total failure at school... high grade atheletic ability is clearly just the norm for all ninjas.

And you know... acceptable breaks from reality like why they don't have guns.