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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Drolyt View Post
    While I understand that your opinion is somewhat common, especially outside of Japan for some reason, I have to respectfully disagree; I think the Uchiha and Sasuke in particular are an asset to the story. Regardless, I don't think fan dislike/like of a character should be a factor in determining the outcome of a story.
    I dont mind the uchiha as a character, my whole issue revolves around the eyes of unlimited powers. They are the plot device for more abilities from nowhere than the forbidden scroll is to fanfiction. At first the sharingan was cool. It was a neat and powerful bloodline, but it was beatable. Then we got the mangekyo. Ok, I can deal with this, the big bad scary guy has a higher level version of an already powerful bloodline, he is a big bad, he is supposed to be harder to beat. Then they started listing ability after ability, kishi decided that each mangekyo, because everyone with a sharingan has one, would get special abilities of their own, and even now we see more and more new eye powers pop out.

    The eyes become symbols of godhood, as some cocky 18 year old nobody is able to stand up to, and fight against, 4 frigging kages and NOT end up a greasy smear on the floor. And it is ONLY because of those super ultra mega eye techniques that he isnt. He isnt some master of a thousand techniques, or ultra fast and strong. He basically stands there and lets susanoo fight for him, sending out bursts of black fire from time to time. He is preshippuden garra using his ultimate defense for everything, and having few skills to fall back on. Take his fight against kirabi. He DIES like 3 times during that battle, and gets his ass handed to him throughout the entire thing. Its only a lucky shot with his amaterasu that lets him and his team survive, and then just happening to discover that he can control the black flames that keeps him from killing karin and kirabi and failing his mission.

    Anyways, my point being, those eyes have been turned into a total crutch, instead of making the uchiha better, like faster or stronger, kishi just gives them a new eye technique and lets that solve every problem they have.
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    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

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  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    Yeah, the Kages can't defeat Madara simply because he's too powerful. Madara is not even trying to fight them. He's not taking them seriously in the slightest. He's hardly used his EMS or Rinne'gan. The ONLY EMS techs we saw from him where an INCOMPLETE Sussano' and some unamed genjutsu(Probably Tsukyomi) and the only Rinne'gan techs where Hungry Ghost Realm and the meteorites. This whole fight has been him using almost exclusively Mokuton, probably because he's thoroughly enjoying using the techniques Harishima beat him with all those years ago. If he was serious he'd be pulling out complete Sussano', more EMS techs, Rinne'gan techs and his Mokuton, not just standing there all cocky and spamming the wood. So, needless to say, if the Kage's are losing this badly to Mokuton alone, and being used by a non-serious Madara at that, imagine what would happen if the guy was actually serious and pulled out the rest of his arsenal?

    Needless to say, the ONLY way Madara will be defeated is for Edo Tensei to be canceled, which is why we are seeing this fight between Kabuto and the Uchiha bros. The Kages are just too outclassed to win.

    Also, as for the Uchihas, meh. I don't hate them. I don't paticularly like Sasuke or Itachi, though. Itachi is the 2nd biggest Sue in the entire manga(Minato is the first because he, while less HAXX then Itachi has HAXX + a flawless personality while Itachi has SOME flaws in his character though they do not make him any less HAXX.) and Sasuke is just an emo. To me, the most interesting Uchiha is by far Tobi, who is also my favorite character in the entire manga....and unlike Sasuke and Itachi he doesn't rely solely on his sharingan; he has been shown to be one of the smartest and most manipulative characters in the manga and the only sharingan tech he relied on a lot was his S/T jutsu, and it is debatable whether or not that technique is even a sharingan tech at all or some other non-sharingan jutsu that he happens to possess.
    Last edited by Giegue; 2012-04-12 at 07:33 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    I've enjoyed Itachi because he has enough contingencies. Also, I think he's probably the only Uchiha to put his village above the clan. That earns him points. Plus he spent almost the whole series messing with sasuke
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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Madara View Post
    I've enjoyed Itachi because he has enough contingencies. Also, I think he's probably the only Uchiha to put his village above the clan. That earns him points. Plus he spent almost the whole series messing with sasuke
    False premise. Itachi was a sadistic murdering bastard that killed his whole clan including his own parents to test his ability to do it. He mind rape tortured Kakashi and Sasuke leaving them in coma's just so he could get away. That is Itachi the complete monster that while Sasuke should always have gotten over it... you could at least see how that would **** a kid up.

    All of it, absolutely all of it was shat over after the fact with by a bunch of thin lines and suddenly we are supposed to feel sympathy that ooh he was 'ordered' too but loved his brother so vewy muuuchh isn't he a great anti-hero who was super brilliant enough to protect his village. And ooh now Sasuke is going to get revenge for his brother isn't that so bishie and sexy. I say thee.... NAY

    Everything about Itachi is a gigantic arse pull so massive Tite Kubo only wishes his drawers were half as dirty. It only speaks to the manga's other great strengths that it survives the word Uchiha.

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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    False premise. Itachi was a sadistic murdering bastard that killed his whole clan including his own parents to test his ability to do it. He mind rape tortured Kakashi and Sasuke leaving them in coma's just so he could get away. That is Itachi the complete monster that while Sasuke should always have gotten over it... you could at least see how that would **** a kid up.

    All of it, absolutely all of it was shat over after the fact with by a bunch of thin lines and suddenly we are supposed to feel sympathy that ooh he was 'ordered' too but loved his brother so vewy muuuchh isn't he a great anti-hero who was super brilliant enough to protect his village. And ooh now Sasuke is going to get revenge for his brother isn't that so bishie and sexy. I say thee.... NAY

    Everything about Itachi is a gigantic arse pull so massive Tite Kubo only wishes his drawers were half as dirty. It only speaks to the manga's other great strengths that it survives the word Uchiha.
    Its such a deep ass pull that there was a tongue attached to the far end of it. It made no sense. Itachi was a good guy all along right? He saved konoha from civil war that would have left it gutted and vulnerable right? He wanted his baby brother to grow strong and kill him to regain his clans honor and start over fresh right? THEN WHY THE HELL DID HE TORTURE SASUKE INTO INSANITY?! Everything he did was in no way unclearly established to make sasuke an evil bastard willing to do anything to get strong enough to kill itachi. Every bit of that torture, his entire hate me speech, the follow up torture, all of it, all designed to do anything BUT turn sasuke into a paragon of honor and virtue to restart the clan on a high note. Give me 10 minutes and I could come up with a far better speech to give to sasuke.

    "It was not my intention to do this in front of you. For that I am sorry. But you can take my word for it. Father had it coming. When you grow up. If you still feel raw about it. Ill be waiting."

    There, way better. But seriously, he could have kept the whole coup secret, made himself out to be the bad guy, and mind raped sasuke into thinking the only way he could ever grow strong enough to defeat him, was to work with his friends and fellow ninja, grow strong together, and hunt him down as a team. Or maybe something like, "The uchiha clan was weak, its old ways of doing things inferior. Its why I killed them all so easily. If you hope to ever be able to kill me, you will have to find a new path in life, one the old uchiha clan always refused. Rely upon your fellow ninja to help you grow strong. Learn from and with them, and when you think you are ready, come and find me, and show me that your way is better. Show me that through you, the uchiha clan can become great again."
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

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  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    There is a way the thing becomes less character breaking. If you assume that Itachi really went insane after what he did.

    But that's pretty much trying to hurriedly Spackle over the horrendous holes the author left in the story.
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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    There, way better. But seriously, he could have kept the whole coup secret, made himself out to be the bad guy, and mind raped sasuke into thinking the only way he could ever grow strong enough to defeat him, was to work with his friends and fellow ninja, grow strong together, and hunt him down as a team. Or maybe something like, "The uchiha clan was weak, its old ways of doing things inferior. Its why I killed them all so easily. If you hope to ever be able to kill me, you will have to find a new path in life, one the old uchiha clan always refused. Rely upon your fellow ninja to help you grow strong. Learn from and with them, and when you think you are ready, come and find me, and show me that your way is better. Show me that through you, the uchiha clan can become great again."
    Yeah and beyond Itachi none of this is established to have a base to operate from. Were the Uchiha ever portrayed as anything but just another extended clan in Part I? Nope, or not enough for me to really pick up on. Remember how the Sharingan used to be frakking rare supposedly even in clan and their manliness test was mastering Fire jutsu? And how they were the fan to the flames, if that doesn't sound like a cheerfully loyal motto for the Leaf I don't know what is. Sure there were a couple skeletons in their closest with Madara... but so what it just means they had a few bad apples.

    Certainly nothing that would build them up as somehow the being the heirs of a great grudge going back to the beginning of the Ninja world and that they were some kind of village outcasts that were only barely tolerated. We've seen right from the beginning the Leaf has no problem ostracizing people, yet so help me no real sign of it for the Uchiha. Heck the Uchiha even had a respectful and frankly generic job as cops. That what we eventually find out in a few words is absolutely not a substitute for failing to build a theme in early on then trying to patch it into making the Uchiha's more important.

    I could maybe buy some of this crap from the Hyuga who are set up as elitist nobles from the get go, and establish themselves with having a fairly nasty practice to protect their special techniques. That's how you set up being secretly planning rebellion. Doesn't make one of their own killing them off somehow sympathetic but it doesn't or take "secret rebellion revealed ex post facto" out of being a lame plot device... but at least it isn't outright dissonant with displayed behavior.

    Then again pretty damn sure this wasn't all thought out at the beginning.

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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    True, but at least with my speech, or one similar, it establishes that there was possibly something wrong with the clan that made itachi kill them, and he apparently wanted sasuke to find a better way to recreate the clan. Its all a big mystery to us until we get this big reveal about the coup attempt, and we learn via flashback exactly what the uchiha were doing that itachi claimed was wrong. We could even have an older sasuke, a few years after the massacre, searching through his clan records until he discovers plans of the coup and other horrible things.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    Since we are actualy bringing itachi's horrible crime's up, then am i the only one who have been wondering just how many innocent kids and teenagers the bastard must have killed to erradicate an entire clan, and leave only Sasuke remaining?

    Something that becomes so much worse when you considder how it would not have been nececary for either of itachi's stated goals, that of either killing the rebellion, or trying to test his own power.
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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Since we are actualy bringing itachi's horrible crime's up, then am i the only one who have been wondering just how many innocent kids and teenagers the bastard must have killed to erradicate an entire clan, and leave only Sasuke remaining?

    Something that becomes so much worse when you considder how it would not have been nececary for either of itachi's stated goals, that of either killing the rebellion, or trying to test his own power.
    Agreed, its highly unlikely that the entire clan was nothing but active duty ninjas. There were grandparents, and civilians who never channeled chakra before. There were innocent babies and children as young as or younger than sasuke. Wiping out a corrupt clan so sasuke can rebuild it in a better way SOUNDS all sorts of noble, but in reality its a horrifying action that would send you to hell a hundred times over.

    Its why I always liked the fanfics where we learn that itachi DIDNT kill all of his clan. He wiped out the clan council and the active duty nins who supported the plan. Then later on that night, danzo and his root, or madera, or whoever, came by and finished the job. Or where itachi went in to wipe out the conspirators, but as he arrived he saw fugaku killing the last of the uchiha clan that refused to join in, so itachi killed all of fugakus supporters, and once again, big damn mess and total genocide instead of cherry picking the traitors and leaving the rest alive.
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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    First of all, that "fanfic" scenario is not very far from the truth. It is 100% canon that Tobi was present during the massacre AND actually helped Itachi with the killing. In fact, we have no idea just how much of the killing was Itachi and how much was Tobi. In addition, Tobi was involved with Danzo and has a wall of sharingan in his lair, all of this seems very, very fishy and I don't think that Itachi killed as many people as we have been lead to believe. It is a very logical assumption to make that Itachi only went after Fugaku and the conspirators and the rest of the clan was wiped out by Tobi so he could harvest their eyes.(and perhaps give some to Danzo.) Root may or may not have also been present, but it is 100% canon that Tobi was there and it is also 100% canon that he helped with the actual killing. Now we just have to find out how much was Itachi, how much was Tobi and with the way Itachi has been portrayed as of late it is a safe bet to make that Tobi killed the innocents/did most of the murdering.

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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Giegue View Post
    First of all, that "fanfic" scenario is not very far from the truth. It is 100% canon that Tobi was present during the massacre AND actually helped Itachi with the killing. In fact, we have no idea just how much of the killing was Itachi and how much was Tobi. In addition, Tobi was involved with Danzo and has a wall of sharingan in his lair, all of this seems very, very fishy and I don't think that Itachi killed as many people as we have been lead to believe. It is a very logical assumption to make that Itachi only went after Fugaku and the conspirators and the rest of the clan was wiped out by Tobi so he could harvest their eyes.(and perhaps give some to Danzo.) Root may or may not have also been present, but it is 100% canon that Tobi was there and it is also 100% canon that he helped with the actual killing. Now we just have to find out how much was Itachi, how much was Tobi and with the way Itachi has been portrayed as of late it is a safe bet to make that Tobi killed the innocents/did most of the murdering.

    Regardless of who killed who Itachi was aware that the mission was to kill EVERYONE. Regardless of Tobi Itachi would have had to understand that innocents would die.

    In reality I feel that Itachi is still a lawful evil/lawful neutral with evil tendencies character who realizes that he is evil and tries to do good. He just happens to have a very strict viewpoint on how things should get accomplished.
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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    See, I was under the impression that Sasuke was the only person in the whole clan not in on the coup. That... doesn't seem likely, but it seems to be what the story implies. I mean, even in flashbacks we never once saw another Uchiha Sasuke's age or younger. I'm pretty sure that if Danzo's plan was really to have Itachi slaughter a bunch of babies and toddlers the Third would have overruled it.
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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Drolyt View Post
    See, I was under the impression that Sasuke was the only person in the whole clan not in on the coup. That... doesn't seem likely, but it seems to be what the story implies. I mean, even in flashbacks we never once saw another Uchiha Sasuke's age or younger. I'm pretty sure that if Danzo's plan was really to have Itachi slaughter a bunch of babies and toddlers the Third would have overruled it.
    Yeah, but the uchiha clan had an entire district to themselves. It was almost like an internal village in the village, all full of uchiha. They had uchiha merchants and such as well if I remember. It seems very unlikely, considering the uchiha clan was also the police force of the village, that sasuke's was the only family with children. Certainly just as unlikely as everyone in the clan being in on the coup. There had to be men, women, children, and old people, some ninja, some retired, some civilian, and the whole reason we dont see other uchiha kids is likely because we spent limited time dealing with sasukes past, and all that revolved around his immediate family. We dont know if there was also some sort of hyuuga-ish main and branch family separation type of thing as well.
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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Yeah, but the uchiha clan had an entire district to themselves. It was almost like an internal village in the village, all full of uchiha. They had uchiha merchants and such as well if I remember. It seems very unlikely, considering the uchiha clan was also the police force of the village, that sasuke's was the only family with children. Certainly just as unlikely as everyone in the clan being in on the coup. There had to be men, women, children, and old people, some ninja, some retired, some civilian, and the whole reason we dont see other uchiha kids is likely because we spent limited time dealing with sasukes past, and all that revolved around his immediate family. We dont know if there was also some sort of hyuuga-ish main and branch family separation type of thing as well.
    I know how unlikely it is, but it still seems more likely than Itachi and the Third agreeing to slaughter a bunch of kids. Kishi probably should have thought it through more.
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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Drolyt View Post
    I know how unlikely it is, but it still seems more likely than Itachi and the Third agreeing to slaughter a bunch of kids. Kishi probably should have thought it through more.

    The most likely scenario was, they didnt want to risk any survivors learning of the clan genocide being ordered and causing more civil unrest, so originally it was supposed to be the whole clan, but itachi refused to go along with it if his brother was harmed. Itachi being out of the village kept them from killing sasuke for fear of retaliation, so instead they did their best to make sasuke stay loyal by giving him a swelled head. Not helped by the mental torture itachi dished out.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    I think trying patch up a "most likely" scenario for the details of the massacre is all besides the point.

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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    I think trying patch up a "most likely" scenario for the details of the massacre is all besides the point.
    How so? If Itachi only killed traitors it is completely different than if he killed freaking children. After all execution is the standard penalty for treason.
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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    Indeed, but just because I like speculation, who said Danzo told the 3rd that he was going to murder the entire clan, kids included? In fact, who said that was what Danzo had originally planned either. Danzo and Tobi worked togther for a while, that much is known. It is also known Danzo is a manipulative ******* and so is Tobi, so Danzo could have very well have told the 3rd that "We're just going after the coup' leaders" when in reality he was planning to kill the whole clan so Tobi and he could harvest their eyes, and whatever other reasons the two of them may have had.

    When the 3rd found out about the whole clan being murdered, Tobi's presence would have been the perfect "cover up" for the third.....Danzo could have just been like..."Yeah, it totally wasn't my fault; Madara showed up and killed the rest of them. My boy Itachi just killed the leadership like we agreed on! Heck, I got Itachi to fake joining Madara so we can spy on Akatsuki to boot!" As for the eye harvest, that would also be easy to hide since the bulk of the eyes went to Tobi, not Danzo and it was probably Root that disposed of the bodies. Heck, Tobi probably did the harvesting himself seeing his surgical skills and just gave Danzo some of them as part of the deal they had.

    Of course, this is all speculation, but hey, speculation is one of the few things that keeps me reading this manga.
    Last edited by Giegue; 2012-04-13 at 03:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Drolyt View Post
    How so? If Itachi only killed traitors it is completely different than if he killed freaking children. After all execution is the standard penalty for treason.
    Because its still a radical departure only revealed after the fact to introduce a major retcon for the sole purpose of thinly justifying Sasuke's continued stupidity.

    Its still completely dissonant from everything we knew before hand for there to even be the insufficient reason we got. Doesn't matter for example how many Uchiha were in on the coup or who precisely killed who, because nothing establishes them as the sort of people who would stage a coup over some esoteric grudge of not getting enough respect or whatever that nebulous reason was.

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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    Oh my god, can we stop arguing and just get to the most likely explanation? Kishi failed or didn't care enough to think it through?

    Ignoring the fact that we know very little and half of what we think we know might as well be lies or things Kishi will change once he decides it's more fun in another way...
    (Can you tell my esteem of Kishimoto's writing skill is not too high?)

    Okay, so we know Tobi and Itachi killed the Uchiha on orders of the elders. First of, at least to me it doesn't matter if Itachi killed children or just helped kill them, both acts are about the same level of evil. The one thing that could be considered redeeming if he actually didn't know the order was not only referring to the conspirators but all Uchiha which is unlikely since he especially asked for Sasuke to be saved, so he had to know it was not only about the suspects. So the order was apparently to kill everyone from the beginning.
    Yes, it would make sense to eliminate all Uchihas to keep any of them from finding the truth/starting another rebellion but no, it makes no sense at all to have the Third involved. This is as stupid as NOBODY TELLING NARUTO WHO HIS FATHER IS.
    To me, really, it all comes down to Kishi giving a ****, he just wanted the backstory for Sasuke and Itachi and that's it. Everything else is fanon unless something new is revealed.

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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    Oh not telling Naruto about his parents is pretty dumb too, but with a couple differences:

    1) Its confirmation was preceded in many ways so does rewrite a major element of the story.

    2) It not being dealt with directly is so conspicuous that it becomes a hole that is filled, not one ripped open.

    3) Naruto's reaction to finding out about his dad was completely sane and appropriate.

    So while still pretty dumb it reaches the level where it still enriches the story and can be forgiven since if dealt with "logically" somewhere (like three chapters in) it wouldn't have had anywhere the emotional impact.

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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    Besides all the speculation before the actual reveal was pretty awesome and fun, I also remember the storm that brew up when Pain's outline was first revealed was incredible.
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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    Yeah, my personal favorite piece of Itachi speculation was what was referred to as the "uchiha tengu theory" which was a VERY well thought out, detailed piece of work which was actually better then the actual explanation. While there was FAR more to the theory then Itachi's motives, the part about Itachi said that he was basically bat**** insane and wanted to free a powerful Tengu named Sojobo who was one of the two progenitors of the Uchiha clan, the other being a female Hyuga. So yes, by this theory, the Uchiha's dark secret was that they where half-demon and that the very demon they came from was sealed beneath their shrine(Sojobo the Tengu King himself, to be exact.) Needless to say it was more interesting then the "Uchiha come from the elder son of a super-powerful guy who created all jutsu" story we got, and Itachi being a lunatic who wanted to free a demon was better then him being a stealth anti-hero who was all "Yay Leaf!"

    As for "shadow Pein" there was YET ANOTHER piece of detailed speculation about him that was totally awesome and actually held up all the way until we saw that he was Tobi's *****. That theory was that Pein was the forerunner/leader of a foreign invasion from another content. The theory used all kinds of symbolism in the manga regarding the Hun's attempted sea invasion of Japan that was ended before it began by storms, and the "AL" would be the "Hun/Attila" figure to Naruto's "Kamikaze/Divine Wind."

    When we first saw shadow pein sitting on the giant statue head before we knew that it was in the middle of the city this theory claimed that the "statue" was actually the front of a giant boat and that the city was a port in a far off industrial country from which the AL hailed.(And indeed, upon a close inspection of that image the "statue" looks a LOT more like a boat then a statue, and you can even see what looks like a vast sea in the background, making that interpretation very sound until we found out otherwise.) Again, the real story(Nagato) was far, far less interesting then the fan theory(Imagine how awesome this war would be if it where against a HIGHLY INDUSTRIAL, scary, massive foreign superpower that still had chakra and ninja instead of the team of fodder Zetsus, Kabuto + his army of the ages and Tobi?)

    So, in short, fan speculation about Naruto is better then the actual plot. Sad, no?
    Last edited by Giegue; 2012-04-13 at 06:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    Nah the theories were always too half-baked for me. Elaborate theories on future canon always have a stink to them for me. Maybe because they all turn out so wrong and their proponents struggle pathetically to keep them past their expiration date. Wasn't the tengu one also predicting that 8 Tails would be a snake for example. Why... because it lifts Japanese mythology even more directly. Even the handful of things that called the Ten Tails had all the details wrong. And so help me I don't think anyone called a guy from Yu Yu Hakusho showing up.

    As for what we did get I honestly find most stuff outside the Uchiha (which still includes Tobi until actually confirmed otherwise) pretty good and heck what we got with Pain turned out so well I think I still extend the series credit on his basis. Set up as being epic powerful and delivered.

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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    Because its still a radical departure only revealed after the fact to introduce a major retcon for the sole purpose of thinly justifying Sasuke's continued stupidity.
    ... How? It does not directly contradict anything previously stated. The only thing that changed was Itachi's motivation for his actions, which were never explicitly stated within canon to begin with. Kishi took a scenario and added some additional details, that isn't a retcon. For it to be a retcon that actual events would have to have changed.
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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    Yeah, Pein was awesome. Nagato was a major letdown, however. Pein was more interesting to me because of his motivation and goals rather then his godly power. His plan was very, very unique and as much as I like Tobi, Pein's plan was far more interesting then Tobi's half-baked evil overlord world domination plot. Pein's ideology was a great, stark contrast but yet also a dark reflection of Naruto's own ideology, and his goal was very much relevant to this day and age, with nuclear weapons still being a major issue in politics. Pein before we knew he was Nagato was a powerful, enigmatic character with an amazing goal and interesting ideology. When we found he was Nagato he went from that godlike figure to ANOTHER superpowerful emo. "Just what we need, ANOTHER superpowerful Emo in this manga *facepalm*" was my reaction. I would have honestly preferred if there was no Nagato and Deva Path/Yahiko was the actual Pein.

    However, while he lasted, Pein was pretty cool. After Nagato I prefer Tobi, however, and kinda did before Nagato as well.

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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Drolyt View Post
    ... How? It does not directly contradict anything previously stated. The only thing that changed was Itachi's motivation for his actions, which were never explicitly stated within canon to begin with. Kishi took a scenario and added some additional details, that isn't a retcon. For it to be a retcon that actual events would have to have changed.
    That the story does not do so in a strictly factually has exactly zero relevance to to its thematic contradiction. If someone suddenly announced that when every Leaf ninja turns 15 they are jumped on the street by ANBU and then raped in a back alley as a test and learning exercise to be careful at all time, it wouldn't contradict the story. No one said that doesn't happen after all! Yet it would still be a shocking unheralded swerve into a direction nothing should lead you to suspect in a typical shonen series or from previous event.

    Factual contradiction is too high a bar for determining something as consistent for a series. even a direct negative statement can be rendered mute with a simple "oh they lied..." statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giegue View Post
    Yeah, Pein was awesome. Nagato was a major letdown, however. Pein was more interesting to me because of his motivation and goals rather then his godly power. His plan was very, very unique and as much as I like Tobi, Pein's plan was far more interesting then Tobi's half-baked evil overlord world domination plot. Pein's ideology was a great, stark contrast but yet also a dark reflection of Naruto's own ideology, and his goal was very much relevant to this day and age, with nuclear weapons still being a major issue in politics. Pein before we knew he was Nagato was a powerful, enigmatic character with an amazing goal and interesting ideology. When we found he was Nagato he went from that godlike figure to ANOTHER superpowerful emo. "Just what we need, ANOTHER superpowerful Emo in this manga *facepalm*" was my reaction. I would have honestly preferred if there was no Nagato and Deva Path/Yahiko was the actual Pein.

    However, while he lasted, Pein was pretty cool. After Nagato I prefer Tobi, however, and kinda did before Nagato as well.
    Nope liked Nagato too, he's what Sasuke should have always been. Since as opposed to being a mopey loner that beats up people with his haxx Rinne'gan he pursues his goal through a plan with actual meat on it. He's actually proactive in channeling his pain to a larger purpose.

    Also preferring Yahiko I think is deliberate and the point. That's the grand inspiring Char mask Nagato wears to become Pain the Dark Messiah. But its an important point that in the end a Dark Messiah is a false one.

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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    That the story does not do so in a strictly factually has exactly zero relevance to to its thematic contradiction. If someone suddenly announced that when every Leaf ninja turns 15 they are jumped on the street by ANBU and then raped in a back alley as a test and learning exercise to be careful at all time, it wouldn't contradict the story. No one said that doesn't happen after all! Yet it would still be a shocking unheralded swerve into a direction nothing should lead you to suspect in a typical shonen series or from previous event.

    Factual contradiction is too high a bar for determining something as consistent for a series. even a direct negative statement can be rendered mute with a simple "oh they lied..." statement.
    It might be too high if the question is whether the story is good. I can accept that you thought it was poor plot development and I have no problem with that (albeit I disagree), but you said it was a retcon, which I can factually state it is not, unless you are using a different definition of retcon? Wikipedia has more.
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    Default Re: Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Drolyt View Post
    It might be too high if the question is whether the story is good. I can accept that you thought it was poor plot development and I have no problem with that (albeit I disagree), but you said it was a retcon, which I can factually state it is not, unless you are using a different definition of retcon? Wikipedia has more.
    In point of fact "adding but not precisely contradicting" is the most basic, original, and I dare say common form of retcon. You can find it on the wikipedia entry under Addition.

    For one of the most famous ones I'd illustrate with Jean Grey. Who famously died at the conclusion of the Dark Phoenix Saga. Only when a few year down the road they decided to bring her back it turned out that Jean had in fact been so injure in the original incident she merged with the Phoenix Force that she'd been placed in a healing pod that sank into the ocean while the Phoenix duplicated her body and mind... which then thinking itself Jean went through the whole Phoenix Saga and died. Thus not only was Jean back, but she was never technically dead, and also absolved of killing billions.

    See some thematic similarities?

    Nothing about this *technically* contradicts the previous story. Since everyone including the Phoenix thought that Jean was the real deal. That said clearly on the meta level this was all created after the fact.

    Now maybe Kishi always had it in mind... but I don't believe that. We can see any number of things clearly there from the beginning. For example Naruto and Minato is clearly there from the beginning, to the point of being too obvious. This is not the case with Itachi and the Uchiha though. For all the reasons noted over the last few pages why its such a terrible twist.

    Even if Kishimoto swears up and down it was so utterly hidden it frankly is a de facto retcon whatever he says.

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