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2012-04-08, 09:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
On a completely unrelated, non-spoiler note:
What do you guys think of me turning this preconstructed deck into a viable, budget-friendly modern deck?
I'm thinking all of the cheaper proliferate effects, and all the cheaper funguses as a core (mainly gained through buying two of the precons). Maybe Thelonite Hermit for the high-end of the curve; and Parallel Lives for the higher end of the money curve (hopefully I won't have to spend more than $1.50 on any single card.) Would Life and Limb be too risky?
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2012-04-08, 10:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
SpoilerYeah, that's what I mean. When topdecked the card is incredible, but in your opening hand it's an automatic mulligan in a deck that cannot afford to mulligan. Playing 4 copies is just asking to drop games due to coming up 2 points short from having one dead in hand.
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2012-04-08, 10:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-04-08, 11:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
It is WAY to early to discuss the title of the next thread, but due to the fact that I suspect we'll just be beginning to receive spoilers on... hold on...
Spoiler... on Ravnica cards, do you think "XIV: What happens in Ravnica stays in Ravnica" would be too inappropriate?
Meanwhile,
SpoilerI do hope that card isn't in it's final form, but it likely is. I would hope they'd bump the miracle cost up to 1R or RR, or something, but it's unlikely. Still, it's not as great a card as it appears, when you consider the amount of protection in this same block, and that when you draw it, if you don't play it immediately, it will cost ~4, and if you do it will likely be countered.
And I see what is meant when it is said that you do not want to mull in a burn deck, and this would certainly cause a few mulls. But I thought you could only mull if you didn't have lands in your hand? Did that rule change at the same time mana burn was removed?Demilich avatar by Smuchmuch. Thank you VERY much!
Old Extended Signature, last updated in 2012
Awright, Supagoof, that's just awesome. Thanks!
Spoiler
Infernal avatar by Savana. Thanks!
Nude version by SmuchMuch.
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2012-04-09, 12:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
SpoilerThanks for breaking Magic Wizards.
If that card (or Brainstorm) isn't banned in at least one format, I will eat my hat. Lets reprint Recall and Lotus while we're at it as well.Last edited by The Extinguisher; 2012-04-09 at 12:22 AM.
Thanks Uncle Festy for the wonderful Ashling Avatar
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2012-04-09, 12:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
SpoilerThe tournament mulligan rules are that you can mulligan whenever you want, but you draw 1 less card each time you do so. So if you don't like your hand of 7, you can shuffle in and get a new hand of 6 cards. And so on and so on.
All the Avacyn Restored cards we are going to see are in their final forms. They wouldn't have card mockups with arts and such if they weren't, I don't think.
Now that Miracle has been clarified, I am much less worried about it rules-wise. I am still not sure how well it plays. I wasn't actually expecting them to give us Time Warp. That said, it actually... kinda seems balanced. Definitely very powerful, but I'm not sure it is broken. Time Walk is great and all, but this one you have to set up. I think the most powerful thing I can see with the Miracle cards is Increasing Vengeance, which actually sounds pretty fun.
It does seem good in Legacy with Brainstorm, perhaps enough to spawn its own archetype. Time Walk is a good card. But since it does require some setup, and you have to be using it to go off, I'm not sure how bad it will be. It does power up Pyromancer's Ascension for sure.
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2012-04-09, 12:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
Spoiler
4x Sensei's Diving Top
4x Counterbalance
4x Brainstorm
4x Temporal Mastery
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Jace, the Mindsculptor
4x Force of Will
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Batterskull
I will play this every day in legacy, but it isn't going to be fun for anyone else I'm playing.
Thanks Uncle Festy for the wonderful Ashling Avatar
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2012-04-09, 12:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
SpoilerI'm sure that isn't as broken as you seem to think it is. Legacy is a pretty big format. I feel like there are ways to deal with Temporal Mastery.
I mean, I know I'm going to be playing some Thought Scours.
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2012-04-09, 12:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
SpoilerOkay, Griselbrand is officially awesome. "Pay 7 life: Draw seven cards" would be cool enough, but then he goes and has seven power and lifelink.
As for Demonic Taskmaster, I am reading this right? Because it seems to me like you still get to keep him if you don't have another creature to sacrifice.
I'm not really liking how all the Miracle cards seem to have inflated casting costs to compensate for the ability. I get the thematic and balancing reasons behind it, but I still feel like the cards revealed so far could all cost one less mana to hardcast (except maybe Thunderous Wrath, because then it would be strictly better than Lava Axe).
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2012-04-09, 01:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
Okay, my list of theoretical decks went pretty much ignored, except for the suggestion to squeeze in Phantasmal Image somehow. Maybe I'll have more luck with a deck I actually play and need some advice on how to make it more competitive, especially since it's one of the reasons I'm so excited about Avacyn Restored.
Heaven and Hell
SpoilerLands:
10 Plains
9 Swamps
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Vault of the Archangel
Spells, Artifacts, and Echantments:
x3 Gather the Townsfolk
x4 Increasing Devotion
x3 Day of Judgement
x2 Unburial Rites
x2 Undying Evil
x2 Sever the Bloodline
x2 Seance
Planeswalkers:
x1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Creatures:
x1 Skirsdag High Priest
x3 Doomed Traveler
x3 Requiem Angel
x2 Disciple of Griselbrand
x1 Angelic Overseer
x1 Reaper from the Abyss
x3 Ravenous Demon
x2 Bloodgift Demon
x4 Thraben Doomsayer
Sideboard:
x2 Carnifex Demon
x1 Elbrus, the Binding Blade (Mostly for multiplayer games)
x1 Nevermore
x1 Bloodgift Demon
x1 Jar of Eyeballs
x1 Stony Silence
x4 Aegis Angel
x2 Seance
x1 Undying Evil
x1 Disciple of Griselbrand
General Tactics:
The early game for this deck is entirely about putting out as many humans as possible. Both for blockers and early offense (later on, they become much more expendable, see below). This is mainly accomplished by cheap humans (Doomed Traveler, Disciple, etc.) and by token generators (Gather the Townsfolk, Increasing Devotion, Thraben Doomsayer). Sometimes I can overwhelm the opponent with tokens, especially if I can get the Vault of the Archangel or Sorin's emblem, but that's a secondary win condition at best. Primarily I focus on getting out big flyers who usually have either a debilitating effect or some form of protection. Ravenous Demon is a favorite for this since, obviously, the goal is to have out plenty of humans for them to feast on. In addition, Requiem Angel means I get double use out of all my non-spirit tokens since a human token dying means it basically 'upgrades' to a flying spirit token. One of my favorite strategies is to have out a bunch of tokens and Requiem Angel, then play DoJ to wipe out my opponent's creatures while retaining an army of spirit tokens.
Seance brings back potentially valuable creatures and blockers, but also fodder for the Disciple of Griselbrands since I can sack the tokens the enchantment creates for health if nothing else. Undying Evil and Unburial Rites insure it's difficult to keep my important creatures out of the game while Sever the Bloodline helps ensure I don't need to deal with opposing token armies or powerful creatures. Sorin's obvious use is his omega, but his Emblem can make a huge difference but sadly I only have one of him.
The sideboard is admittedly a bit...eccletic. Jar is because lots of my creatures are usually dying. Elbrus makes for a huge game-changer (if I can get him to flip anyway), especially in multi-player, while Nevermore and Stony Silence's usefulness in the sideboard is self-apparent. Carnifex Demons are in case I'm having trouble with lots of weak creatures (bouncing the -1/-1 counters back and forth between them to clear the field...) Aegis Angels are there mainly because....they're angels and they can protect my field as long as they're alive. Or each other if I play two and name each other as the target of it's ability.
So, advice? Cards I should look for? Cards I should remove? I want to squeeze in Village Cannibals and/or Unruly Mob since my own humans end up dying alot which benefits both of those creatures immensely. I know I could probably use more Isolated Chapels but I'm strapped for cash and people willing to trade them...so what else would help?Warriors & Wuxia: A community world-building project focused on low-magic wuxia/kung-fu action using ToB.
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2012-04-09, 01:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
Last edited by Callos_DeTerran; 2012-04-09 at 01:11 AM.
Warriors & Wuxia: A community world-building project focused on low-magic wuxia/kung-fu action using ToB.
"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
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2012-04-09, 01:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
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2012-04-09, 01:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
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2012-04-09, 01:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
You say the above like we didn't know that was happening.
SpoilerNot all the "loners" do specifically what Taskmaster does. They are better if they are your only creature, from what I understand.
The loner mechanic is flavorful but I am not sure how well it will play.
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2012-04-09, 02:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
SpoilerI really dislike the design of Temporal Mastery. Miracle is mechanically interesting because it creates a tension of "Do I cast this now cheaply, or save it for a more opportune time later?" The burn spell works well, since when you draw it early you'll often be choosing between killing a low impact target like a 2/2 for R, or saving it for a bigger, more impactful creature later.
Temporal Mastery doesn't hit that at all though, since it's almost always correct just to cast it as soon as you draw it. It completely wastes the interesting elements of the Miracle mechanic, while still hitting the bad parts (introduces a huge amount of variance into the game).
I'm really hoping that the rest of the Miracles are less like Temporal Mastery and more like Thunderous Wrath.Last edited by Suedars; 2012-04-09 at 02:26 AM.
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2012-04-09, 02:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
SpoilerThere is actually a strategic element to when you want extra turns. I can definitely imagine several situations where the correct play is to just draw your Temporal Mastery. As someone who's played a few Time Warps in my day, they aren't just something you want to slam down as soon as you draw them. The board has to be at a certain position for you to really want that extra turn.
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2012-04-09, 02:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
SpoilerThere's definitely some benefit to waiting, but there's very rarely going to be 4U worth of benefit outside of EDH.
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2012-04-09, 02:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
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2012-04-09, 02:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
SpoilerBut Time Walk plays differently than Time Warp.
Yeah, 3UU, draw a card, play another land, maybe attack for some damage isn't very good, but when that card only costs 1U it's a lot better. 1C draw a card play a land is already an amazing card called Explore. I can't really think of a situation where you don't want to cast it. If you're losing, it will catch you up, if you're tied it will push you ahead, and if you're winning it will keep you're opponent that much farther away.Thanks Uncle Festy for the wonderful Ashling Avatar
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2012-04-09, 02:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
Definitely get 4x Lingering Souls, and go up to 24 lands. Don't get Village Cannibals of Unruly Mob, they are a trap. Disciple of Griselbrand and Seance aren't actually cards and should not be played ever. Undying Evil and Rites of Reanimation do nothing for your deck and should be removed.
Requiem Angel, Angelic Overseer, Reaper from the Abyss, Ravenous Demon and Bloodgift Demon are OK, but should really be replaced with something better if possible. You should try and get more planeswalkers, specifically Liliana and Gideon Jura. You should add in some Doom Blade and/or Go for the Throats, based on what you think you'll be facing.
More than anything, I'd suggest looking through lists of existing decks, for example here. To be honest, though, from a competitive standpoint half of your deck is trash and the other half should be replaced ASAP. If you seriously want to try and turn that into a really competitive deck, then you need to either head down the black/white aggro token route, or the Esper control route. Both of these will require you to replace 80-90% of your deck and cost upwards of a hundred dollars.5e Homebrew: Death Knight (Class), Kensai (Monk Subclass)Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.
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2012-04-09, 02:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
SpoilerJank deck idea: U/R Delver/Mindshrieker Miracles.
Flip Delver with Thunderous Wrath, shoot them for 5, Noxious Revival it back to the top to pump Mindshrieker.
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2012-04-09, 06:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-04-09, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
SpoilerI dunno. I mean, sure, exploring is awesome and all (and I'm only half the explorer Alex was), but there are lots of decks that don't want to play Explore. It's not going to be a card you jam in everywhere because it's Time Walk. Explore isn't that amazing, it's fine and good at what it did. But not all decks want that, much less blue decks.
Taking extra turns when you are losing isn't actually getting you ahead, it's just delaying the inevitable much of the time. Yes, being able to Time Walk when you're at parity can be worth quite a bit of benefit, but it isn't always (and depending on the situation, doesn't do anything) and unless you're Brainstorming you won't have control over when you get to Time Walk. And when you're winning, yes, a powerful effect like this seals the deal, but there are so many of those this one doesn't phase me at all.
Also note that Time Walk is good because it's in formats where every turn your opponent has is another that they could use to win the game from nowhere or completely and totally lock you out of playing spells/having permanents. Extra turns when both of you are staring at a bunch of creatures that can't profitably attack or block one another isn't that great. I feel like this card will end up in a lot of decks that it just isn't very good in.
I can see Temporal Mastery being good in the various U/X control decks, as they can really take advantage of the extra turn with Titans and Planeswalkers and they actually want to Explore quite a bit. I don't see it being that good in Delver decks, as they don't really care about the Explore, and you definitely don't want to play a roaming mulligan in your deck if you don't have to, which is really the biggest problem about playing Miracle cards.
Obviously the card is very good in Legacy and will create interesting questions regarding the legality of Brainstorm. I also just realized that it exiles itself, so it actually doesn't work at all with Pyromancer's Ascension, so let's not try that one.
TL;DR The card is good, but it's not as good as people seem to think it is.
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2012-04-09, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
"Three blokes walk into a pub. One of them is a little bit stupid, and the whole scene unfolds with a tedious inevitability." - Bill Bailey
Androgeus' 3 step guide to Doctor Who speculation:
Spoiler- Pick a random character
- State that person is The Rani
- goto 1
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2012-04-09, 02:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
Last edited by Lord Seth; 2012-04-09 at 03:01 PM.
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2012-04-09, 02:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
Okay, I might need to clarify what I mean by 'competitive', that being within my gaming environment, not for tournaments. I don't have the money for a tournament quality deck and, just going from the list of Standard decks in the Grand Prix from that list, my environment is very different. Last Game Day where I play (which is what I want to enhance the competitiveness of my deck for) was dominated by Pod decks and a zombie deck I didn't actually face so I don't know what it was like. The only deck I saw that was like one on the list was a deck similar to the Kessig Titan deck. I didn't even know what a Delver deck was until I clicked that link.
That said, Undying Evil and Seance have treated me well surprisingly well. I know it's weird but Seance has saved my bacon in more then one game while Undying Evil means my opponent has needed to expend at least two kill spells/critters to take out one of my heavy hitters or allows them to survive a DoJ.
That said...what can I replace Angelic Overseer and Bloodgift Demon with? What does Gideon or Liliana actually add to the deck besides general usefulness?Last edited by Callos_DeTerran; 2012-04-09 at 02:58 PM.
Warriors & Wuxia: A community world-building project focused on low-magic wuxia/kung-fu action using ToB.
"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
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2012-04-09, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
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2012-04-09, 03:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
Ah, right. Well in that case things are much less clear cut. The first thing I would advise you do, is find the core of your deck. What is your gameplan, and how do you achieve it? You should try and make your deck as focused on possible. Resist adding in cards just because they "seem good", instead only add things that align with your core strategy, or are necessary to support it.
As noted before, there's two major routes for you to take, aggro and control. That's not to say that those are the only options, of course. You could also go for a more in-between "aggro-control" route, but in any case it should be clear where you are aiming.
Another option is to focus on a specific combo, or set of combos, or just very synergistic cards. In this case consistency is your largest concern, and all card choices outside of the combo itself should be built to make the combo more consistent, usually in the form of stuff that draws you cards and slows down the game. (often leading to the deck being blue)5e Homebrew: Death Knight (Class), Kensai (Monk Subclass)Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.
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2012-04-09, 03:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
The core of the deck would be large angels and demons, it was the purpose of the deck when I built it because I love both creature types and I want to make an effective deck that uses both of them. So I guess you could say that the deck is a black-white beatdown deck, but angels and demons usually have interesting abilities that go along with them. Of the current set of demons/angels, the ones in the main deck are the ones that seemed the most usable (aside from Angelic Overseer and Bloodgift which were both added to keep the theme going and as large flyers to kill my opponent) for this kind of deck.
The core synergy is to get the most out of the death of my tokens/creatures. Ravenous Demon was practically the card I built the deck around so I knew I'd be losing lots of humans. So Requiem Angel and Seance was added in (bringing back Doomed Travelers from the grave to feed the Ravenous Demons which also nets me spirit tokens) both so losing a human token or human creature doesn't leave me without defenses while the Archdemon of Greed swings in for victory. If I had them, I'd replace the Disciples of Griselbrand with Skirsdag High Priests, so the Disciples are really just a place-holder that gives tokens generated from Seance another purpose (life) and can trigger the Reaper's Morbid ability.
So that's the general breakdown, how can I make it better? Are there better humans for this task in M2012/Scars of Mirrodin (don't have much knowledge of those two sets)? Humans/Demons/Angels with come into play effects are ideal since I can get double use out of their ability from Seance.Warriors & Wuxia: A community world-building project focused on low-magic wuxia/kung-fu action using ToB.
"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
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2012-04-09, 04:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
Unfortunately, "Angels and Demons" doesn't really work as a deck. Perhaps it will, come Avacyn Restored, but right now they're all just too expensive, and not very good.
The closest to what you seem to want that makes a good deck (without costing a ton), is this. Most of the cards in that list are pretty easy to acquire. Sorin is expensive, but you can make do with 1 without too much trouble. (and I'm sure you'll pick up another if you have the chance) I'd replace his second copy and Elspeth Tirel with your Angelic Overseers, since they fulfill a similar role. (powerful and resilient threats)
Sword of War and Peace is harder to replace, but isn't integral to the deck, so you can just replace that with something good, maybe Ravenous Demon if you absolutely must have demons in the deck, otherwise probably just Doom Blade/Go for the Throat to round out your removal a bit more in the maindeck.
For the sideboard, of course you won't be affording Hero of Bladehold or Angelic Destiny any time soon, so ignore those. Nihil Spellbomb, Timely Reinforcements, Divine Offering, perhaps Ray of Revelation with plans to splash the flashback off of Shimmering Grotto (which you'll probably use to replace missing Isolated Chapels for the time being). Don't worry about the sideboard too much, it's probably better to just fill it with placeholder lands to start, then add in cards you wish you could sideboard in against specific decks as you play against them.5e Homebrew: Death Knight (Class), Kensai (Monk Subclass)Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.