Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse

[Ninjaman]

I tried the deck at cockatrice, it was pretty neat, the deck works, but that doesn't mean i am not open to suggestions.

[Lord Ruby34]

I need some advice on deck building. I'm trying to play a standard Vampire Tribal, and I'm looking for the cards to round out my deck, and cards to convert it to standard.

Right now it looks like this:

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Creatures:
Stromkirk Noble 1x
Bloodcrazed Neonate 3x
Vampire Interloper 2x
Child of Night 2x
Stromkirk Captain 4x
Markov Blademaster 3x
Rakish Heir 4x
Bloodline Keeper 2x

Spells:
Lightning Bolt 4x
Duress 4x
Doom Blade 4x
Skeletal Grimace 1x
Curse of Bloodletting 2x

Land:
Mountain 13x
Swamp 11x

Which means it's not standard legal or complete. I can probably get my hands on most cards that aren't mythic rare, but I'm not sure what to get. And I know I'll need to find a replacement for Lightning Bolt and Duress. Lightning Bolt should be easy enough, shocks aren't hard to come by. But Duress really helps my deck by protecting my Vampires, and I don't know how to replace it. I'm also not sure what I should get rid of when I manage to get four of all the Vampires I want to use, and I don't know which ones to cut.

And I need to figure out a sideboard. ... Help.

[Suedars]

So we've got our first Avacyn Restored preview:

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Between the Eldrazi, the Praetors, and just all the other random fatties that have been released lately I'm getting really sick of the copy-paste mythic 8+ drop with a splashy ability. The "game winning durdle" has just been getting really played out lately, and I feel jaded and underwhelmed by Avacyn rather than awed like they were presumably going for.

[Fable Wright]

So we've got our first Avacyn Restored preview:

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Between the Eldrazi, the Praetors, and just all the other random fatties that have been released lately I'm getting really sick of the copy-paste mythic 8+ drop with a splashy ability. The "hard to answer and/or card advantage machine uncastably expensive guy" has just been getting really played out lately, and I feel jaded and underwhelmed by Avacyn rather than awed like they were presumably going for.

Source? There have been a lot of fake Avacyn spoilers, so I'm just curious if this is the actual Avacyn, or just another fake.

[Divayth Fyr]

Source? There have been a lot of fake Avacyn spoilers, so I'm just curious if this is the actual Avacyn, or just another fake.

MTG's facebook page.

[flabort]

Source? There have been a lot of fake Avacyn spoilers, so I'm just curious if this is the actual Avacyn, or just another fake.

Well, I haven't seen that expansion symbol before... it could be authentic...

[9mm]

huh, really really expected her to be a hexproof Acroma.

[Lord Seth]

After all the buildup for Avacyn, I was hoping for a legendary card that'd be an actual game changer, or at least have a significant impact, like Thalia or Geist of Saint Traft (or for an even better, if non-legendary, example, Delver of Secrets). Instead, this really just seems to amount to "oh, look, another possible card to fit a slot in Reanimator/Urzatron/etc. decks". It just doesn't seem to be anything other than an alternative to Elesh Norn.

[Shades of Gray]

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I wouldn't be so quick to judge her. Who knows what the rest of the block will hold? There may be lots of great angel support; ways to get Avacyn into your hand or onto the field more easily.

But, assuming you threw this card into standard right now, I don't think it'd see much play. Maybe in a pod or frites deck?

[Suedars]

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There's basically no reason you'd want her over Elesh Norn in pod.

[tgva8889]

Because it is a spoiler, please spoil discussion of it.

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Who knows. There is some impact to this card's existence, but I'm not really a fan of what it is (namely that Commander games involving this card just become super-annoying barring some Swords or Paths).

It was too much to expect Avacyn to be anything remotely low-costing, in reference to the mentioned Legends. If you mean significant in a "will get played in tournaments to success" way, we don't really have any way of knowing whether or not that's true. Lots of the large creatures currently present in Standard will be rotating out soon, but many of the enablers for decks like Frites seem likely to remain. Avacyn may be our Praetor/Titan replacement.

Every set has a few huge, giant creatures. Those cards tend to receive high-profile attention because, well, if you're going to preview cards from the set you should probably preview at least one huge, giant creature because there are quite a few players who enjoy those kinds of cards. I don't think anyone could honestly have expected Avacyn or Griselbrand to be anything but Timmy Exciting. I mean, come on. This is a Legendary Angel we're talking about here, with massive storyline importance, that had to be trapped in the Helvault to be dealt with. (Amusing note: Helvault is actually a decent response to Avacyn.)

In short, the card doesn't surprise me at all.

[Bucky]

Because it is a spoiler, please spoil discussion of it.

I think I know where this is heading...

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A common or uncommon 7/7 white Vigilance for 6WW with no other abilities! How could they possibly make their Mythic look awesome without the decoy effect?

[Suedars]

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There are so many ways to make a card Timmy exciting other than making it cost a billion mana, have a huge body and do something broken. Kaalia is super exciting for Timmy, but is a 4 mana 2/2. Gigantomancer is an 8 mana 1/1 that's still exciting to Timmy. Gelationous Genesis's exponential scaling is awesome for Timmy. Avacyn is just another generic White fatty that even the Timmy in me doesn't care too much about.

[tgva8889]

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Don't get me wrong, they could have done something else. There are probably even more ways than what you have described, and Avacyn isn't the only way to make cards for Timmy. But it is one way. Perhaps you are simply not a fan of this kind of card, and this card wasn't made for you.

I think there are lots of parts in this card, and I see it as more elegant than just the kind of "bludgeon you with the awesomeness" that I sense from the dislike. The text "Avacyn, Angel of Hope and other permanents you control are indestructible" is splashy. It is powerful. It is also unique and not something they have done before. It fits well with the flavor of the Helvault, a card that was already established. It serves the purpose of Avacyn being a powerful being of protection.

How "generic" is making all your stuff indestructible? Akroma still stands out among all the Magic cards ever printed ever. People who played when she came out still remember what she does. And Akroma is literally a kitchen sink creature. Avacyn makes all your stuff indestructible. That is the kind of thing that I think excites most players. Even if you understand that it costs 8 and the chances of you casting her in many games aren't very high, the power of the card is off the charts.

If you are unhappy with the choice to design cards like this in every set, however, you should let Wizards know. From what I understand, they do listen to feedback.

[Sith_Happens]

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In short, the card doesn't surprise me at all.

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Avacyn, Angel of Hope and other permanents you control are indestructable.

The bolded part suprises me greatly. Just about every other card I've seen or heard of (especially in white) that mass grants an ability or boost nearly that powerful does so to everything except itself. The only other card I've seen that mass grants indestructibility just for being on the board (which incidentally also breaks the above rule) is Darksteel Forge, which costs one more mana and theoretically helps your opponent too.

Sure, the formats where Avacyn is likely even playable all have plenty of removal that can hit an 8/8 indestructable, but almost all of that is in white (and blue if you count bounces and counterspells), so in many cases this card is just an "opponent may scoop" button. Which IMO, still shouldn't happen at eight mana (not that most decks capable of playing her care about CMC in the first place, but that's an entirely different issue).

On another note, I've had three people that posted after me get some form of deck advice. I don't mean to sound selfish, but I'm feeling kind of ignored right now.

[tgva8889]

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Darksteel Forge only makes your Artifacts indestructible.

8 mana is a lot of darn mana. If you cast a spell for 8 mana, I think it having the text "You probably win the game" isn't too much to ask.

[Sohala]

Green/Red with a discard theme? Survival of the Fittest and Squee, Goblin Nabob.

[Lord Seth]

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How "generic" is making all your stuff indestructible?

Because all it actually does in terms of deck construction is fit into the same niches that, say, Elesh Norn fits into. At the end of the day it's still a "creature that has some really strong effect on the board that costs too much to be played unless you try to cheat it in with reanimator or something." Which there are already lots of, and better candidates at that.

Akroma still stands out among all the Magic cards ever printed ever.

...how? She's barely been in any top 8 decks in any format in the last 2+ years. You don't stand out by people barely playing you.

People who played when she came out still remember what she does.

As someone who played back then, I can say not really. I just remembered she had a bunch of abilities and recalled a few of them. Honestly, Phage was way more memorable to me.

And Akroma is literally a kitchen sink creature. Avacyn makes all your stuff indestructible.

Meh. We've seen that before with Elspeth, Knight-Errant, which was in my opinion more interesting and certainly more playable.

If you are unhappy with the choice to design cards like this in every set, however, you should let Wizards know. From what I understand, they do listen to feedback.

I have no issue with them making really strong cards with prohibitively high casting costs (though do they really do that in EACH set?). My problem is that Avacyn was really, really built up. The whole story was about her. She was constantly being mentioned on the cards. She was in all the promotional artwork for the set. The set has her name in it. And after all that buildup, after all that excitement for what kind of card this hyped-up angel would get...we get this. Just another card that fits the same niche(s) as Elesh Norn, and probably not as well as Elesh Norn does. And that's why I'm so disappointed.

Maybe in the set there'll be some kind of card(s) that interface with her to make her more interesting. But as is, I'm just not seeing how this card is worth all the hype.

[Fable Wright]

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Darksteel Forge only makes your Artifacts indestructible.

8 mana is a lot of darn mana. If you cast a spell for 8 mana, I think it having the text "You probably win the game" isn't too much to ask.

It's called Coalition Victory. The 'probably' is based on whether or not your opponent has a response to save himself.

[Mystic Muse]

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Am I the only one who likes this card? It looks interesting, and I'd like to use it in a deck. She seems a lot less obnoxious than a lot of cards I've seen that are standard legal, and it's not like indestructible means she can't be dealt with. She still dies to a well placed Tragic slip, anything that makes you sacrifice a creature, ETC.

[Suedars]

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Don't get me wrong, they could have done something else. There are probably even more ways than what you have described, and Avacyn isn't the only way to make cards for Timmy. But it is one way. Perhaps you are simply not a fan of this kind of card, and this card wasn't made for you.

I think there are lots of parts in this card, and I see it as more elegant than just the kind of "bludgeon you with the awesomeness" that I sense from the dislike. The text "Avacyn, Angel of Hope and other permanents you control are indestructible" is splashy. It is powerful. It is also unique and not something they have done before. It fits well with the flavor of the Helvault, a card that was already established. It serves the purpose of Avacyn being a powerful being of protection.

How "generic" is making all your stuff indestructible? Akroma still stands out among all the Magic cards ever printed ever. People who played when she came out still remember what she does. And Akroma is literally a kitchen sink creature. Avacyn makes all your stuff indestructible. That is the kind of thing that I think excites most players. Even if you understand that it costs 8 and the chances of you casting her in many games aren't very high, the power of the card is off the charts.

If you are unhappy with the choice to design cards like this in every set, however, you should let Wizards know. From what I understand, they do listen to feedback.

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I like this type of card when it's done sparingly. Progenitus was awesome. Protection from everything just gives it such an epic feel. And Kozilek's reveal with the webpage being smashed apart with the first showing of the Annihilator keyword was great. But after Blightsteel Colossus and the Praetors, the whole thing is starting to get worn out.

I think some of my complaint might not be with the cards themselves, but the fact that seemingly every other set's spoilers are headlined by the big dumb fatty. Before Progenitus in Conflux the last we really had was Marit Lage in Coldsnap, roughly a 3 year gap. But then just a year after Conflux we get the Eldrazi (which were fair enough since pushing that set using anything but the Eldrazi would have been a massive mistake). Then the very next set we get the Titans headlining M11. Shortly thereafter Blightsteel Colossus is the face of Besieged (somewhat amusingly given how negative the reaction to the card was), and although we never got the full spoiler run from NPH because of the Godbook debacle it's pretty clear that the Praetors were the big hook for that set (especially with how Elesh Norn's art is plastered over everything these days).

I'm fine with game-winning fatties being around in just about every set. I have no issues with Moldgraf Monstrosity. I just wish Wizards would push a set using a card that costs less than 6 and doesn't have loyalty counters for once, especially since the more splashy, uncastable fatties they use to push sets, the less memorable each one becomes.

[Sith_Happens]

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Darksteel Forge only makes your Artifacts indestructible.

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*Looks at it again*
Yes, yes it does.

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8 mana is a lot of darn mana. If you cast a spell for 8 mana, I think it having the text "You probably win the game" isn't too much to ask.

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I agree, I just think that in this case, applying the effect to the card producing it in addition to everything else takes too much of the "probably" out of that equation. Personal pereference I guess; part of my problem is probably just the asymmetry with other, similar cards.

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Green/Red with a discard theme? Survival of the Fittest and Squee, Goblin Nabob.

I guess I didn't mention that part on this thread, but I've already thought about and decided against doing that. As soon as I add Survivial of the Fittest I'm not even playing a Madness deck anymore, I'm playing a Survival deck. For now I'd like to stick with Madness, thank you very much.

On a slightly-related note though, how useful would Vengevine be for me sans Survival? It looks to me like it could be incredibly good on turn two or three (Wild Mongrel, pitch Vengevine then a Rootwala), but then drop off significantly in usability after that.

[Ninjaman]

I played the deck on cockatrice and won on turn 4:

I went first
My T1: Play Darkslick Shores, taps, summon Gravecrawler.
Op T1: Plays basic land.

My T2: Play Drowned Catacomb, taps DS, summon gravecrawler, hit with Gravecrawler he has 18 life.
Op T1: Plays land, plays Nihil spellbomb.

My T3: Play island, summon Diregraf Captain, hit with Gravecrawlers he has 12 life.
Op T3: Plays land, summons Mirran crusader.

My T4: Plays land (can't remember which kind), summon cemetery reaper, attacks with 2 4/3 crawlers and a 3/3 captain, he blocks the captain, i throw vapor snag at it, returns it to his hand, he has 11 life, then the creatures hit him for 11.

[9mm]

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my main issue with Avcyn isn't she's a big fatty, it's she now develops a 3 card lock down in EDH.

[Duos]

I played the deck on cockatrice and won on turn 4:

I went first
My T1: Play Darkslick Shores, taps, summon Gravecrawler.
Op T1: Plays basic land.

My T2: Play Drowned Catacomb, taps DS, summon gravecrawler, hit with Gravecrawler he has 18 life.
Op T1: Plays land, plays Nihil spellbomb.

My T3: Play island, summon Diregraf Captain, hit with Gravecrawlers he has 12 life.
Op T3: Plays land, summons Mirran crusader.

My T4: Plays land (can't remember which kind), summon cemetery reaper, attacks with 2 4/3 crawlers and a 3/3 captain, he blocks the captain, i throw vapor snag at it, returns it to his hand, he has 11 life, then the creatures hit him for 11.

How? He should have only taken 8 from the two crawlers. removing a blocker from combat doesn't make the creature un-blocked, your captain just deals no damage that combat because he doesn't have trample. You can vapor snag the crusader before blockers, but if you let him block, the captain is blocked. No damage

[Ninjaman]

How? He should have only taken 8 from the two crawlers. removing a blocker from combat doesn't make the creature un-blocked, your captain just deals no damage that combat because he doesn't have trample. You can vapor snag the crusader before blockers, but if you let him block, the captain is blocked. No damage

I think i did it in response to him blocking me, wouldn't that work.

[Androgeus]

I think i did it in response to him blocking me, wouldn't that work.

nope, once an attacker has been blocked by a creature it is blocked no matter what happens.

[Binks]

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(Amusing note: Helvault is actually a decent response to Avacyn.)

That was my first thought as well

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I'm honestly a little saddened by this thread's tournament level standard-centric viewpoint . Not every card is built to be played in the Grand Prix. There are plenty of Kitchen tables where this will come down and be awesome.

I liked this card when I saw it, and my friend immediately demanded I trade him it if I pull a copy, so there are certainly people out there excited for it. If you're not excited about it, then it's probably not for you *shrug*. No need to rag on it as 'bad'.

[Ninjaman]

nope, once an attacker has been blocked by a creature it is blocked no matter what happens.

But if i respond doesn't it happen before?

[Suedars]

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my main issue with Avcyn isn't she's a big fatty, it's she now develops a 3 card lock down in EDH.

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It's a 3 card lock which involves an 8 CMC creature, which is fairly difficult to assemble and easy to disrupt. Besides, it's not like there aren't hundreds of other 3 (and even 2) card locks in EDH already.