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2012-04-03, 12:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
Blocking doesn't use the stack.
1) Player A declares attackers ---> Those creatures are now attacking
2) Players respond to attackers being declared with their plays. Spells go on the stack, then resolve.
3) Player B declares blockers ---> Those creatures are now blocking.
4) Players respond to blockers being declared. Things go on the stack, then resolve.
5) Damage is assigned and resolves.
There are cards such as Hollowhenge Spirit that deliberately say they remove a creature from combat, but even that doesn't mean the creature didn't attack/block. Anything that would trigger from those actions still occurs.
SpoilerPersonally, I don't see Avacyn replacing Elesh Norn in either Pod or Frites. From what I can see, you don't play Elesh Norn because she means you win, you play Elesh Norn because it means your opponent loses because she's just friend all their creatures. I think she's far more likely to end up in a GW token style deck, probably some variation of the Humans list where they can speed her out with Avacyn's Pilgrim and/or Birds.Basilisk 6Pilot of the Thing
I'm not evil. My morals just aren't the same as society's.
On a one man quest to beat the Star Wars Universe, using nothing but simple, plain, ordinary logic. Score so far: Me 593 SWU 450
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2012-04-03, 12:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
No, because blocking doesn't use the stack. Here's how it works:
You declare your intent to move from your main phase into the declare attackers step. This is the last chance for people to do things like tap your creatures so they can't attack. If nobody has any responses, cool, declare attackers happens.
You attack with whatever creatures you feel like. Then players get a chance to cast things after you've declared attackers. After everybody is done casting things, you move into declare blockers.
In declare blockers, the very first thing that happens is that blockers are declared. Declaring attackers and declaring blockers does NOT use the stack, similar to activating a mana ability. So he declares his blockers. Again, everybody gets a chance to to cast things.
If you want to remove his dude as a blocker, you need to do it before the declare blockers step-either in your man phase or the declare attackers step.
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2012-04-03, 12:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
"Three blokes walk into a pub. One of them is a little bit stupid, and the whole scene unfolds with a tedious inevitability." - Bill Bailey
Androgeus' 3 step guide to Doctor Who speculation:
Spoiler- Pick a random character
- State that person is The Rani
- goto 1
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2012-04-03, 01:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
So I've been challenged to make a deck. No restricted or banned list, no holds barred, use up to four of whatever I want, plus basic lands.
All it has to do is have a reasonable chance of doing one thing: Beat a Yugioh deck. Those things with 8000 life where the weakest creature is effectively a 100/100 hasted trampler.
Surprisingly, this was far easier than expected, though of course, it inevitably hinges on getting very good draws and winning or locking them down turn 1. Well, that, or alternatively, a wizard deck can do well if it gets past the first few turns (or if you put a Black Lotus out turn 1, I suppose).
Edit: Two of them can at least ensure a fair bit of safety if not a complete lock T1 with two cards. That said, one has to be a Black Lotus, so yeah.
Further editing: If you don't count Yugioh cards as spells unless it's explicitly a card of the spell type, then the wizard deck kinda falls apart, come to think of it.Last edited by Cogwheel; 2012-04-03 at 02:16 PM.
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2012-04-03, 02:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
Seems pretty simple, just play one of the combo decks that goes infinite, whether that's infinite mana for an infinite mana banefire, or just splinter twin. With black lotus, timetwister, and the rest of the power 9, and leyline of anticipation, you've got a fairly high chance of doing so turn 0. Then just tutor for whatever pieces of the combo you're missing, and kill them.
Alternatively, you could also just cast Ghostly Prison, which prevents him from ever attacking since he can't make mana, and he can't destroy it since I'm pretty sure there's no such thing as an enchantment in Yugioh.5e Homebrew: Death Knight (Class), Kensai (Monk Subclass)Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.
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2012-04-03, 02:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
It's not a very wieldy idea, but I wanted to pitch this past the thread...
SpoilerThird turn, play Drogskol Captain. Boosts spirits with +1/+1 and hexproof, obviously. Fourth turn, play Xenograft naming spirits. Everything is now a spirit. Fifth turn, Angel of Flight Alabaster, which counts as a spirit and is thus hexproof (and is important to next part). Sixth turn, play Call of the Kindred on Angel of Flight Alabaster (or any angel really, how many angels are in standard right now?). Seventh turn, if lucky, play Avacyn for free due to Call of the Kindred. All of your creatures are now indestructible and hexproof. Turn eight, profit?
What ways can people think of to speed this combo up or just do it better? Obviously there's the re-animation option to get out Avacyn on turn 4 (Unburial Rites, but then you need a way to get Avacyn into your graveyard...).
What about...this potential decklist.
Blessed Sleep Deck
Spoiler4 Drogskol Captain
4 Xenograft
4 Angel of Flight Alabaster
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
4 Call of the Kindred
4 Drogskol Reaver
4 Day of Judgement
2 Silent Departure
2 Spectral Knight
Assorted Lands
Seems like that could work rather well, if it's a bit slow on the uptake. What are ways it could be sped up? Is there a cheaper angel in standard then for 4-5 CMC (Forget which AoFA is)?
Or even...
Reanimtion
Spoiler4 Moldgraf Monstrosity
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
2 Birds of Paradise
2 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
4 Unburial Rites
4 Tracker's Instincts
4 Vorapede/Ghoultree (Whichever)
4 Splinterfright
4 Clinging Mist
4 Dismember
Assorted Lands
I'd have added more reanimation to the reanimation deck but frankly...I'm not that familiar with the Magic 2012 edition or the Mirrodin Besieged block's cards to know what's in them.
Thoughts on both? I gotta say, I like the first more...but it'd be expensive to put together and Xenograft will be rotating out within the year which...puts a crimper on it for me since it's a card I'll have to buy/trade for with cards that'll be in standard for awhile.Warriors & Wuxia: A community world-building project focused on low-magic wuxia/kung-fu action using ToB.
"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
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2012-04-03, 02:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
Yeah, that's one of the options I went for in the end. Except with Propaganda because Ghostly Prison isn't some think of nearly as easily for some reason. Still need a Witchbane Orb to protect you from burns, though.
Once one of the many ways to lock them down have been established, I have the best win condition.
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2012-04-03, 03:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
Spoiler
Lands: 24
8xIsland (got all)
10xSwamp (got all)
2xDarkslick shores (got none)
4xDrowned catacomb (got 2)
Creatures:18
4xGravecrawler (got none)
4xDiregraf ghoul (got 2)
4xDiregraf captain (got all)
2xCemetery reaper (got all)
2xUnbreathing horde (got 1)
2xGeralf's messenger (got 1)
Sorceries:4
2xMoan of the unhallowed (got all)
2xGhoulcaller's chant (got all)
Instants:12
4xGo for the throat (got 1)
4xTragic slip (got 3)
4xVapor snag (got none)
Artifacts:2
2xMortarpod
That is 60, any suggestions for changes?
Sideboard:
4xDoom blade (shall i go 2:2 on these and go for the throat?)
3xSever the bloodline
4xNihil Spellbomb
What should i take for the last 4?
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2012-04-03, 03:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
Ninjaman, if you may want to look over a few of these decks, if you want to further refine your list. Past that, the best way to figure out what kind of sideboard you need is to just play with your deck a bunch.
5e Homebrew: Death Knight (Class), Kensai (Monk Subclass)Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.
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2012-04-03, 03:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
More spoiler discussion.
SpoilerAkroma was popular for 4 years after her printing, so much so that she was printed on the Time-Shifted Sheet and constantly referenced in Time Spiral Block. Phage received no such reference beyond her block. Clearly, Akroma did something worth remembering, otherwise they wouldn't have made nearly so many cards to reference her. I mean, as late as M11 they were making Sword of Vengeance.
I'm not sure 8 is still too much to actually cast. Some decks cast Elesh Norn and Drogskol Reaver for full mana cost these days. In Standard. Sure, there's a world of difference between 7 and 8, but it wasn't that long ago that 10 was an acceptable mana cost for cards that you could cast. The card is unlikely to see play for a combination of reasons, not purely because it costs 8.
Comparing Avacyn the creature to Elspeth the planeswalker is a leap for me. Elspeth is certainly more playable, but Elspeth wasn't more playable because she did anything better than Avacyn. Elspeth did entirely different things by virtue of being a Planeswalker and not a Creature. While I can't argue that Avacyn should be more or less interesting to you, as that's a personal preference, the points upon which you are comparing these cards don't match up to me.
Elesh Norn is going to rotate out of Standard relatively soon. Considering popular response, the Titans are highly likely to join the Praetors in the march out of Standard. This would make Avacyn's competition for "flagship fatties" rather limited. It's possible that Avacyn could see play absent the majority of her competition.
A build-up of excitement doesn't necessitate "awesome tournament staple." I notice that a lot of the comments you've made have had to do with tournament playability. That isn't the only important element of cards, as demonstrated by Akroma's popularity despite her lack of constructed play. I can understand your complaint as "this card isn't playable in Constructed, why should I care?" Which is fine, but you should understand then that not all cards are made for you.
I can understand your disappointment that Avacyn is not a tournament-playable card from immediate glance. But I'm not sure why you thought she would be.
SpoilerI agree that there have been a lot of them. But the majority of them are also Legendary and significant to the "plot" and "story" of the set. It is kind of hard not to include them on the packaging. These are the kinds of cards that sell sets to a lot of casual players.
I do agree that they should tone it down, though. I mean, I like huge creatures, but there is a point at which there are too many of them for some to get more than cursory excitement.
Edit: Also, I think they actually did use cards that aren't Planeswalkers or Mythic Fatties to push a few of their sets. Thalia and Geist of St. Traft, to use previously used examples, come to mind, as does Olivia Voldaren. Strangleroot Geist was used to push Dark Ascension. Mirrodin Beseiged was pushed with the Crusaders, if I remember correctly. Hero of Bladehold was also a Prerelease card for that. Swords also pushed all the Mirrodin sets. Apparently Mox Opal pushed Scars.
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2012-04-03, 04:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
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2012-04-03, 05:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
never mind miss-read the decklist; phantasmal image is good in any blue deck packing massed lords though.
Last edited by 9mm; 2012-04-03 at 05:50 PM.
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2012-04-03, 05:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
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2012-04-03, 05:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
You know, Witchbane Orb doesn't do anything. "Burn" in Yu-Gi-Oh doesn't target.
However, you can get them with a single Sphere of Resistance. Also, Trapmaker's Snare and Break Open sound hilarious. Trinisphere is also funny. Thalia and Thorn of Amethyst are even better, as there are no "creature cards" in Yu-Gi-Oh.
But yeah, if you are unrestricted, just combo them out.
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2012-04-03, 05:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
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2012-04-03, 06:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-04-03, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
The gnomes once had many mines, but now they have gnome ore.
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2012-04-03, 07:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
SpoilerI mean, she could have been a 5/5 for 6, I guess. I think the Vigilance is flavorful, not a power-level addition. I think Avacyn having least 6 power is somewhat flavorful since she has to be able to break your ties of loyalty with Sorin if she happens to be fighting against him. I dunno if 6/6 for 6 would have been pushing it too hard or not.
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2012-04-03, 07:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
I've got several friends running this deck, and here's some basic advice: Get more Stromkirk Nobles. You want a full set. Also Bloodcrazed Neonates. Next, take out Curse of Bloodletting and skeletal grimace, and add Arc Trails. Your plan for the early game is to get in with a couple of growing dudes, and in order to do that you need to clear the field for it. Arc Trail helps there. Next, add more removal. Take out the Bolts and the Duresses if you want it to be standard, and add in Go for the Throats and Incinerates. Vampires you can safely cut out include Child of Night and Vampire Interloper, in case you find you need more room later. Finally, 24 lands is too much. You should probably run 22, and add some Dragonskull Summits and/or Blackcleave Cliffs.
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2012-04-03, 07:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
Sadly, I don't have Phantasmal Image...but I do have quite a few Cackling Counterparts which are better in my mind. FLASHBACK!...Also, instants.
Warriors & Wuxia: A community world-building project focused on low-magic wuxia/kung-fu action using ToB.
"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
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2012-04-03, 07:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-04-03, 07:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
Agreed, but Image also dies if it's targeted by anything which I find a major flaw. Sure, the idea would be to target the Captain in this deck so it can't be targeted, but if I were to copy something else...well then there's a problem.
EDIT: I should state that this might just be a product of my gaming environment. I've never seen an Image survive past a single turn if it could be targeted, especially if it's copied something dangerous.Last edited by Callos_DeTerran; 2012-04-03 at 07:19 PM.
Warriors & Wuxia: A community world-building project focused on low-magic wuxia/kung-fu action using ToB.
"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
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2012-04-03, 07:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
Okay, easy part first. Curse of Bloodletting should be cut because, by the time you get to 5 mana, they should have less than 10 life left. At that point it's better as Lava Axe. And if you don't want lava axe, you can just cut them.
Skeletal Grimace is horrible against a lot of decks, but maybe reasonable against some of the others. Move it to the sideboard to free up a slot.
The critical part of Duress is it's one of the few things you want to be doing on turn 1. That means you need to come up with 4 more things to do on turn 1. If you want Undying Evil for your vampires, that's fine, but be sure to add stuff you want on turn 1, like more Nobles or even Fume Spitter or (particularly sadistic with Rakish Heir in the deck) Infiltration Lens.
Lastly, you should make some minor adjustments to your mana base. You are trying to curve Markov Blademaster into Bloodline keeper. Unless your lands show up perfectly (2 of each), you will need a nonbasic to do so. A couple of Dragonskull Summits will make a noticeable difference. Also, consider running one Stensia Bloodhall over a spell for extra reach.
The first step in making a sideboard is to play it against some other decks and figure out why you keep losing.Last edited by Bucky; 2012-04-03 at 07:24 PM.
The gnomes once had many mines, but now they have gnome ore.
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2012-04-03, 07:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
I think there's an important distinction that needs to be made for this discussion to make sense: Are we talking an actual Yu-Gi-Oh deck, using Yu-Gi-Oh cards and rules (in which case you can just pull all kinds of shenanigins as above by taking advanatage of that fact), or the Magic equivalent of a Yu-Gi-Oh deck (which I suppose would be a deck that somehow has unlimited mana and combos out by covering the board in hasted trampling fatties)?
SpoilerFrankly it would be weird if Avacyn didn't have Vigilance, given the whole "ultimate being of protection" thing. As for being an 8/8, maybe it's just that the number 8 looks nice? Or they didn't want her to be Dismemberable? Most likely they just wanted her to have the whole "P/T = CMC" thing going on.
I do find it amusing that one of the few real threats to Avacyn in Standard (or in non-white Modern as far as I can tell right now) is a banana peel.
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2012-04-03, 07:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
Okay, how does Incinerate Measure up to Shock? I'm honestly curious, because it looks like one mana for one damage, which isn't exactly excellent. Is there something I'm missing?
Honestly the Skeletal Grimace is a placeholder, it was first on the list to be replaced anyway, and the curse can go too. What I don't see is what Fume Spitter will do for me, and Infiltration Lens is nice, but is it really worth including? And Undying Evil is useless, most of the Vampires will have +1/+1 counters. And Duress will have to be cut, because I do want to have at least one standard deck.
How many of my other vampires should I be going for? Should I go for four Keepers and Blademasters, or leave them at two and three?
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2012-04-03, 07:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
Phantasmal Image is significantly better in most cases, and especially so in a zombie deck. It interacts well with Undying on Geralf's Messenger, it only requires one blue source, which is key, and it comes out a turn earlier, and/or more easily allows you to cast it with other creatures, which is key for an aggressive deck.
5e Homebrew: Death Knight (Class), Kensai (Monk Subclass)Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.
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2012-04-03, 07:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
Warriors & Wuxia: A community world-building project focused on low-magic wuxia/kung-fu action using ToB.
"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
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2012-04-03, 07:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
The tradeoff is being able to burn a blocker and play another vampire on turn 4, vs. being able to finish off an opponent who stabilizes at exactly 3 life and kill 3-tougness creatures. Since you have a lot of 2-power attackers, killing 3-toughness creatures is more important than usual.
Oh, and while I'm at it, you should split Doom Blade and Go for the Throat to reduce the risk of drawing multiple dead removal spells in the same game, and to give yourself more post-board options.
What I don't see is what Fume Spitter will do for me, and Infiltration Lens is nice, but is it really worth including?
Infiltration Lens may be better in the sideboard, but it does tear up opponents whose gameplan is 'block the vampires so they don't get counters' rather than 'kill all their creatures with spells' or 'win faster'.
And Undying Evil is useless, most of the Vampires will have +1/+1 counters.
At the very least, it's something you should try. A dozen matches against a varied field, with 2-3 copies maindeck should give you some idea of how well it fits in the deck.
And Duress will have to be cut, because I do want to have at least one standard deck.
How many of my other vampires should I be going for? Should I go for four Keepers and Blademasters, or leave them at two and three?Last edited by Bucky; 2012-04-03 at 07:54 PM.
The gnomes once had many mines, but now they have gnome ore.
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2012-04-03, 08:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
Ahh, I just got that Arc Trail can be used on the same creature for three damage, right? Every thing you've said seems sensible so far and I think I understand. I just want to make sure I'm getting this right.
Creatures:Spoiler
4 Stromkirk Nobles
4 Fume Spitter
4 Neonates
4 Rakish Heir
4 Stromkirk Captain
4 Bloodline Keeper
3? Markov Blademaster
Spells:
2 Doom Blade
2 Go for the Throat
4 Arc Trail
3 Undying Evil?
4 Incinerate?
22 Land
Is that about right?
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2012-04-03, 08:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse
Nope, it says 'another target creature' for the 1 damage.
Every thing you've said seems sensible so far and I think I understand. I just want to make sure I'm getting this right.
Creatures:Spoiler
4 Stromkirk Nobles
4 Fume Spitter
4 Neonates
4 Rakish Heir
4 Stromkirk Captain
4 Bloodline Keeper
3? Markov Blademaster
Spells:
2 Doom Blade
2 Go for the Throat
4 Arc Trail
3 Undying Evil?
4 Incinerate?
22 Land
Is that about right?
Also, I liked the 3/2 split you had between Neonate and Interloper, especially with Undying Evil added.Last edited by Bucky; 2012-04-03 at 08:24 PM.
The gnomes once had many mines, but now they have gnome ore.