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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: [3.5e Base Class] The Conceptualist (PEACH)

    Holy crap, I love this class! I don't really have enough time for a full PEACH right now, but I'll try to write something up tomorrow. In the mean time, this is awesome.
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    Default Re: [3.5e Base Class] The Conceptualist (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellus View Post
    I need to read it through more fully before review, but one thing I noticed right away is that your volumes are ridiculously off for the deconceptualize class feature. If you're talking volume, 100 cubic feet isn't even enough to fill a 5ft. square (125 ft^3), which doesn't track with being able to target Colossal sized creatures. I mean, even disintegrate gets 1,000 cubic ft.
    Been thinking of that myself, I plan to change the formula or how it works in general. Suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Othesemo View Post
    Holy crap, I love this class! I don't really have enough time for a full PEACH right now, but I'll try to write something up tomorrow. In the mean time, this is awesome.
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    Welknair, you are like... some living avatar of win. Who's made of win. And wields win as if it were but a toy. Win.
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    Welknair you are a god among men. Thank you for creating a playground for the completely insane.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark
    There have also been times where I was jealous of your ingenuity and skills.

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    Default Re: [3.5e Base Class] The Conceptualist (PEACH)

    It says Defeat is the opposite of defeat.

    Sneak attack seems amazingly powerful if you put a good amount of focus into it.
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    Default Re: [3.5e Base Class] The Conceptualist (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo v3 View Post
    It says Defeat is the opposite of defeat.

    Sneak attack seems amazingly powerful if you put a good amount of focus into it.
    That was a... test to see if people were paying attention! Yeah, that's it! And you passed! Enjoy your cake! Now where did I leave it...

    And yeah, SA is powerful, though still maxing it will just put you at the SA values of the Rogue at that level. Probably going to drop it to 1d6 per 3 instead of per 2.
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    Welknair, you are like... some living avatar of win. Who's made of win. And wields win as if it were but a toy. Win.
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    Welknair you are a god among men. Thank you for creating a playground for the completely insane.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark
    There have also been times where I was jealous of your ingenuity and skills.

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    Default Re: [3.5e Base Class] The Conceptualist (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Welknair View Post
    Been thinking of that myself, I plan to change the formula or how it works in general. Suggestions?
    No reason to break it up between creatures and monsters. Cubic volumes don't work very well in D&D anyway, since 5ft. squares have no specified height (and in fact are not explicitly 5ft. tall, since humans are usually taller than that), which makes it very difficult to integrate with the rules. I'd suggest using straight up size categories, since objects have them too. When you can deconceptualize a Colossal monster, there shoule be no reason you can't deconceptualize a boat of the same size.

    A couple other weird things I noticed (although I love the feel of the class!):

    ē In the same vein as that first issue, mental construct is kind of weird in that it's measured in square feet (area) but explicitly creates 3D structures. As a DM or as a player, I would have no idea how to resolve that without computing surfaces of revolution and three-dimensional faces. I mean, how do you decide how many square feet are in, say, a giant paper machť elephant without bogging down the game? Also seems kind of weird in that you can make ludicrously large structures out of incredibly thin rods, especially since it has arbitrary hardness and hp no matter how thin rods and pins are. Not necessarily gamebreaking, but might have some really unanticipated uses in play because it's measured in surface area and there's no size category limit. Also doesn't mention if the structure can be moved afterwards (only specifies 'stationary' in the first sentence, implying you can't build something that already has kinetic energy). If so, there's no weight to it. If not, does that mean that it works like a shapeable immovable rod?

    ē Reinvent the wheel is super cool, but one of the examples you give (a fish turned into an arrow) is explicitly not allowed, since fish aren't inanimate.

    EDIT: Upon further consideration, the structures from mental construct are in fact explicitly immovable. This opens up an enormous number of uses, since there's no clause there like on an immovable rod for how much weight it can support before giving out. It can in fact support an arbitrarily large amount of weight. For example, a 5 sqft. midair platform that could support the Tarrasque on top of it?
    Last edited by Kellus; 2012-03-27 at 10:18 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5e Base Class] The Conceptualist (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellus View Post
    No reason to break it up between creatures and monsters. Cubic volumes don't work very well in D&D anyway, since 5ft. squares have no specified height (and in fact are not explicitly 5ft. tall, since humans are usually taller than that), which makes it very difficult to integrate with the rules. I'd suggest using straight up size categories, since objects have them too. When you can deconceptualize a Colossal monster, there shoule be no reason you can't deconceptualize a boat of the same size.

    A couple other weird things I noticed (although I love the feel of the class!):

    ē In the same vein as that first issue, mental construct is kind of weird in that it's measured in square feet (area) but explicitly creates 3D structures. As a DM or as a player, I would have no idea how to resolve that without computing surfaces of revolution and three-dimensional faces. I mean, how do you decide how many square feet are in, say, a giant paper machť elephant without bogging down the game? Also seems kind of weird in that you can make ludicrously large structures out of incredibly thin rods, especially since it has arbitrary hardness and hp no matter how thin rods and pins are. Not necessarily gamebreaking, but might have some really unanticipated uses in play because it's measured in surface area and there's no size category limit. Also doesn't mention if the structure can be moved afterwards (only specifies 'stationary' in the first sentence, implying you can't build something that already has kinetic energy). If so, there's no weight to it. If not, does that mean that it works like a shapeable immovable rod?

    ē Reinvent the wheel is super cool, but one of the examples you give (a fish turned into an arrow) is explicitly not allowed, since fish aren't inanimate.
    Alright, I think I'll take your advice and switch to straight up size categories. What do you think about the current costs associated with sizes?

    Mental Construct was originally intended to make planes, then I had the idea to make them appear in a certain form. A cube would use the sum of the six sides' surface areas. This is, admittedly, needlessly complicated. I'll probably switch to something akin to size categories for this as well.

    Well if you whacked the fish against a rock first, to stun it... Or a dead fish. Nothing like a dead fish through your gut.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daverin View Post
    Welknair, you are like... some living avatar of win. Who's made of win. And wields win as if it were but a toy. Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Virdish
    Welknair you are a god among men. Thank you for creating a playground for the completely insane.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark
    There have also been times where I was jealous of your ingenuity and skills.

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    Default Re: [3.5e Base Class] The Conceptualist (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Welknair View Post
    Alright, I think I'll take your advice and switch to straight up size categories. What do you think about the current costs associated with sizes?

    Mental Construct was originally intended to make planes, then I had the idea to make them appear in a certain form. A cube would use the sum of the six sides' surface areas. This is, admittedly, needlessly complicated. I'll probably switch to something akin to size categories for this as well.

    Well if you whacked the fish against a rock first, to stun it... Or a dead fish. Nothing like a dead fish through your gut.
    I would be very wary of categorizing a stunned creature as an 'inanimate item', because items are very specific things. If dead creatures qualify I'd call it out since it's an edge case, but I feel like there are a lot of abuses with allowing stunned creatures to be subject to it. (Stunning Fist the halfling warlord [no more than 5ft. in any direction] and then turn him into a stool?)

    As for the costs associated with the sizes of deconceptualization, I literally have no idea. The only reference I can think of for that is disintegrate, which is usable at most maybe 30-35 times a day for a sorcerer of 20th level. That works out to, say, 40,000 ft^3 assuming some clever metamagics for the higher level spell slots.

    As for the conceptualist: assuming that you can use it on, say, two Colossal objects or creatures each day (18 PI each) at 20th level (+8 Int is manageable, I should think), which are each at least 30x30x64ft. in size (57,600 ft^3 with each use). So a conceptualist is not only better at destroying matter than a spellcaster that has devoted all of his most powerful resources to the task, but he's a lot better. Whether that's good or not I can't really say, it depends how much you're comfortable with him destroying each day and whether this is a part of the character you really want to emphasize as being much better than existing options.
    Last edited by Kellus; 2012-03-27 at 10:35 PM. Reason: math fail

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    Default Re: [3.5e Base Class] The Conceptualist (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellus View Post
    I would be very wary of categorizing a stunned creature as an 'inanimate item', because items are very specific things. If dead creatures qualify I'd call it out since it's an edge case, but I feel like there area lot of abuses with allowing stunned creatures to be subject to it. (Stunning Fist the halfling warlord [no more than 5ft. in any direction] and then turn him into a stool?)

    As for the costs associated with the sizes of deconceptualization, I literally have no idea. The only reference I can think of for that is disintegrate, which is usable at most maybe 20-25 times a day for a sorcerer of 20th level. That works out to, say, 30,000 ft^3 assuming some clever metamagics for the higher level spell slots.

    As for the conceptualist: assuming that you can use it on, say, two Colossal objects or creatures each day (18 PI each) at 20th level (+9 Int is manageable, I should think), which are each at least 30x30x64ft. in size (57,600 ft^3). So a conceptualist is not only better at destroying matter than a spellcaster that has devoted all of his most powerful resources to the task, but he's a lot better. Whether that's good or not I can't really say, it depends how much you're comfortable with him destroying each day and whether this is a part of the character you really want to emphasize as being much better than existing options.
    I'll clarify Reinvent the wheel - I see that that could be quite a problem.

    As for Deconceptualize, I don't want disintivaporating things to be a major focus here. Boosting the costs a notch or two ought to do the trick.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daverin View Post
    Welknair, you are like... some living avatar of win. Who's made of win. And wields win as if it were but a toy. Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Virdish
    Welknair you are a god among men. Thank you for creating a playground for the completely insane.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark
    There have also been times where I was jealous of your ingenuity and skills.

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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: [3.5e Base Class] The Conceptualist (PEACH)

    WAIT.

    STOP THE PRESSES.

    SHUT. DOWN.

    EVERYTHING.

    There's a play test of this? How many cookies, internet points, brownies, or adorable pictures of Fluttershy do you require to allow me to partake in that madness?

    Instant Sub.

    As a note, however, the class seems to have a huge variety of abilities, though I suppose that is counter balanced by the fact that most of them are extremely situational...
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    Default Re: [3.5e Base Class] The Conceptualist (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by SamBurke View Post
    WAIT.

    STOP THE PRESSES.

    SHUT. DOWN.

    EVERYTHING.

    There's a play test of this? How many cookies, internet points, brownies, or adorable pictures of Fluttershy do you require to allow me to partake in that madness?

    Instant Sub.

    As a note, however, the class seems to have a huge variety of abilities, though I suppose that is counter balanced by the fact that most of them are extremely situational...
    Linky. I'm playing this thing, probably starting at level 6.

    And yeah, these guys are very versatile, even just looking at PI abilities. But as you pointed out, they are quite situational - Most have little combat application. Thanks to Circles, they can be about any role, but once selected they're pretty set in stone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daverin View Post
    Welknair, you are like... some living avatar of win. Who's made of win. And wields win as if it were but a toy. Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Virdish
    Welknair you are a god among men. Thank you for creating a playground for the completely insane.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark
    There have also been times where I was jealous of your ingenuity and skills.

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    Default Re: [3.5e Base Class] The Conceptualist (PEACH)

    I see you've already taken the Conceptualist... Hm.

    BRIBES.
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    Default Re: [3.5e Base Class] The Conceptualist (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by SamBurke View Post
    I see you've already taken the Conceptualist... Hm.

    BRIBES.
    I think we're also on the upper bound of players currently, though it wouldn't hurt to apply


    Edit: Potential order of creation/posting:

    1. Rest of these circles
    2. A couple feats relating to this system
    3. A conceptualist-centered race
    4. Another base class using Circles and Concepts, the Animistic Champion, keyed off of Wis.

    ???. PrC for multiclass Blood King/Conceptualist
    ????. PrC for multiclass Conceptualist/Bloodking/Factotum/Bard (ALL the things!)

    Profit?


    ???'s indicate something that I may or may not make, or is an outright joke. I did make the Omni-Caster, though...
    Last edited by Welknair; 2012-03-27 at 11:52 PM.
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    Welknair, you are like... some living avatar of win. Who's made of win. And wields win as if it were but a toy. Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Virdish
    Welknair you are a god among men. Thank you for creating a playground for the completely insane.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark
    There have also been times where I was jealous of your ingenuity and skills.

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    Default Re: [3.5e Base Class] The Conceptualist (PEACH)

    I've now posted all but the Magic, Create, Morality and Light. I also have three feats finished, to be posted sometime later. PEACHing welcome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daverin View Post
    Welknair, you are like... some living avatar of win. Who's made of win. And wields win as if it were but a toy. Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Virdish
    Welknair you are a god among men. Thank you for creating a playground for the completely insane.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark
    There have also been times where I was jealous of your ingenuity and skills.

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    Default Re: [3.5e Base Class] The Conceptualist (PEACH)

    I wish I could be of more help, but my focus isn't good enough to spot the little mistakes, and as far as I can tell everything is reasonable.

    Although I will question if the Unnaturally Brutal Hail Storm is left completely up to DM fiat, or if you had anything in mind that you wished it to be compared to. Likewise, can the Conceptualist build on his own weather effects? Make it rain, and then turn that into a storm, and then turn his own storm into a thunderstorm?

    ... Can there be a feat to create whirlwinds?
    HOHO! GUESS WHO JUST FINISHED HIGHSCHOOL!


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    Default Re: [3.5e Base Class] The Conceptualist (PEACH)

    Only one thing struck me:
    Shield Focus gives a bog-standard Armor bonus to AC: this wouldn't stack with the Armor one might wear. Is this intentional?
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    Default Re: [3.5e Base Class] The Conceptualist (PEACH)

    Yay, temporary Wi-Fi access, plus ipad!

    Quote Originally Posted by Roc Ness View Post
    I wish I could be of more help, but my focus isn't good enough to spot the little mistakes, and as far as I can tell everything is reasonable.

    Although I will question if the Unnaturally Brutal Hail Storm is left completely up to DM fiat, or if you had anything in mind that you wished it to be compared to. Likewise, can the Conceptualist build on his own weather effects? Make it rain, and then turn that into a storm, and then turn his own storm into a thunderstorm?

    ... Can there be a feat to create whirlwinds?
    I was intending to leave it primarily up to DM fiat, though I may add damage values for the falling hail, later.

    Conceptualists were intended to build upon their own weather effects, I suppose I didn't make that clear enough. You cannot make a Storm before first making it rain, and so on, as you said. They are prerequisites. That was the "Note" below the table.

    And yes, I'm planning on adding a number of feats to emphasize various Circles

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Only one thing struck me:
    Shield Focus gives a bog-standard Armor bonus to AC: this wouldn't stack with the Armor one might wear. Is this intentional?
    Uhhhh... Gosh darnit. No, it wasn't. It would be fine, if the same Concept didn't also grant Armor Proficiencies, which would fill the same spot. Hmmm... Natural Armor Bonus? I think that'd work a bit better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daverin View Post
    Welknair, you are like... some living avatar of win. Who's made of win. And wields win as if it were but a toy. Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Virdish
    Welknair you are a god among men. Thank you for creating a playground for the completely insane.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark
    There have also been times where I was jealous of your ingenuity and skills.

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    Default Re: [3.5e Base Class] The Conceptualist (PEACH)

    I fond thank you to EdroGrimshell, who has encouraged me to finish this project. I have found the rest of the Circles and will be posting them within the next couple of days. As a side-effect of me digging back up those old Circles, I passed through a large amount of brew I did that never saw the light of the boards - namely Bloodlines and half-finished prestigeclasses. I may be finishing and posting these in the near future as well.

    As always, thoughts appreciated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daverin View Post
    Welknair, you are like... some living avatar of win. Who's made of win. And wields win as if it were but a toy. Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Virdish
    Welknair you are a god among men. Thank you for creating a playground for the completely insane.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark
    There have also been times where I was jealous of your ingenuity and skills.

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    Default Re: [3.5e Base Class] The Conceptualist (PEACH)

    OOOOH. Glad to see this finished!

    PEACH:

    General:
    It seems like there's a lot of "for ever 4 in this Focus" with these Circles. This necessarily inhibits those at lower levels from using these parts. Is this an intentional design element?

    War
    Endurance: Hm... it's not too overpowered, but I"m not sure what "max HP" would do if I'm under that. Is that +2 HP non Temp, or what?

    Aid
    Heal: How does this work? is it an automatic class feature for those with the Aid circle taken? Also, when you say "almost" identical, what are the differences?

    Minds
    Lead: I presume this adds a Telepathic Bond-like effect...?

    Amnesia: No problem with this. Just noting that players are going to use this for the funzies, and totally mess with a WHOLE LOT OF STUFF.

    Sight
    Vision: Seems... underwhelming. You have to invest FIFTEEN focus before you get anything that isn't a racial bonus strength benefit. Racial Bonuses are kinda weak.

    Piercing Gaze: While this is nice, it's a lot of investment for something that won't come up terribly often. If I understand it, you'd have to invest at least 4 a day, just to get a +1 against something that'd come up once in ten sessions. Not a great choice.

    Destroy
    YES. I *LOVE* this Circle. Fantastic, fantastic, thing... it's all perfect. Nice blastiness here.

    Travel
    Flight: Seems a bit easy... this means that you can have a decent amount of flight long before level 5. Still, it's not terribly game-breaking, but something to e wary of.

    Self
    Will: This has the same problem as Piercing Gaze. Decent, I suppose, and better than Piercing Gaze, but lacking the punch.

    Form: Sarukkh. You're familiar with Pun-Pun and similar issues. As I remember, Sarukkh would be roughly 8 points here. Still seems balanced by the time limit and other such things.


    Overall Thoughts:

    I am very much liking the class, and how far it's come. Can't wait to see those last three Circles done, but this is a great system.
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    Default Re: [3.5e Base Class] The Conceptualist (PEACH)

    May it be known that I've hardly looked at this class since making it. After I post the remaining Circles, I start going back through it to see if there's any obvious improvements I can make based upon your comments.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daverin View Post
    Welknair, you are like... some living avatar of win. Who's made of win. And wields win as if it were but a toy. Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Virdish
    Welknair you are a god among men. Thank you for creating a playground for the completely insane.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark
    There have also been times where I was jealous of your ingenuity and skills.

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    Default Re: [3.5e Base Class] The Conceptualist (PEACH)

    Itís a shame you didnít get this finished in time for the base class challenge as I think it would fit in really nicely. The flavour is fantastic. I especially like the image of focusing upon the world rather than oneís self.

    If your looking for a real world equivalent (in a distant, non fantasy sense) take a moment to study the shamanistic rituals centered around the taking of Iboga and Ayahuasca to conceptualise the world or oneself. The Bwiti shamans use it to explore the deeper self and there is another tribe (who I canít remember the name of) whom use it to explore the realm beyond. Iím not advocating the taking of such drugs, but if you want a greater insight from a receiverís perspective check out this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR9P7ksKktM

    Anyway, sorry if you view that as way off track, itís just something your class reminded me of.

    Anyway I love the flavour of this and the idea behind it. Excellent work!
    Last edited by kanachi; 2012-09-17 at 10:06 AM.
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  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: [3.5e Base Class] The Conceptualist (PEACH)

    One other note, and this is minor and down-the-road: could you make a sample character or three? One of the things I love about flipping through the official books and their classes is that it tells me what it looks like, so if I want to drag-n-drop a character into a game, I can do that.

    Minor, minor, point, but something I'd like to see: how it works in real life, and how you'd see a build going down.
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  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: [3.5e Base Class] The Conceptualist (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by kanachi View Post
    Itís a shame you didnít get this finished in time for the base class challenge as I think it would fit in really nicely. The flavour is fantastic. I especially like the image of focusing upon the world rather than oneís self.

    If your looking for a real world equivalent (in a distant, non fantasy sense) take a moment to study the shamanistic rituals centered around the taking of Iboga and Ayahuasca to conceptualise the world or oneself. The Bwiti shamans use it to explore the deeper self and there is another tribe (who I canít remember the name of) whom use it to explore the realm beyond. Iím not advocating the taking of such drugs, but if you want a greater insight from a receiverís perspective check out this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR9P7ksKktM

    Anyway, sorry if you view that as way off track, itís just something your class reminded me of.

    Anyway I love the flavour of this and the idea behind it. Excellent work!
    Very interesting! I always like to hear connections people make between my work and other things, as they often serve as great sources of later inspiration. I remember being told that my Blood King was reminiscent of some of the stuff from the Blood Plus manga. I can certainly see the parallels here... Spirit Shaman/Conceptualist PrC would be most interesting.. Glad to hear you like it!

    Quote Originally Posted by SamBurke View Post
    One other note, and this is minor and down-the-road: could you make a sample character or three? One of the things I love about flipping through the official books and their classes is that it tells me what it looks like, so if I want to drag-n-drop a character into a game, I can do that.

    Minor, minor, point, but something I'd like to see: how it works in real life, and how you'd see a build going down.
    Good point, I ought to add that/those.. There's a fair deal of room for customization here, so I ought to be able to come up with some decently interesting characters. I'll give those some thought. I need to come up with/post the feats before I make characters, though.
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  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: [3.5e Base Class] The Conceptualist (PEACH)

    Focus progression is off by 1 point starting at level 2... ;)
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