League of Legends XXXII: Cupcakes and Kittens and Squirrels. Oh my!

[Silverraptor]

Xin is pretty much universally accepted as being in a bad spot right now. He was stupid good at one point. Release Xin Zhao was one of the most overpowered champs that has ever been in the game, and he was repeatedly nerfed. Then nerfed some more.

He's got some nice things about him, and I've still seen him wreck faces. But no, you're not just crazy.

Suprised they nerfed him and not Irelia.

Oh wait... Irelia wasn't out then to nerf, was she.

[PersonMan]

I love it when I play as Malph against a team comprised of an AS-stacking Xin, an AS-stacking AD Twisted Fate and a useless Veigar. It's just sooo fun to be able to ignore them all game.

[Darth Mario]

I meant they weren't synonyms, not that there are no passives that have DoTs. :P

[TechnOkami]

I meant they weren't synonyms, not that there are no passives that have DoTs. :P

I know, I was just poking fun at it when taken out of context.

[LordShotGun]

Wow. Did this thead die all of a sudden? Almost a full 24 hours since the last post.

[Eldariel]

Wow. Did this thead die all of a sudden? Almost a full 24 hours since the last post.

Patch delayed, nothing to see here.

[Reynard]

Well the last conversation ran it's course and there hasn't been anything to talk about aside from GAWD RIOT WHAR PATCH.

Apparently, the Hecarim patch is bugged to all hell, so they're delaying it to next week. Incidentally, this was only revealed in one of the less-visited recesses of the forums and not where anyone was really likely to see it until word got around.

[Boowells]

I love aggressive supports! Blitzcrank and Leona have to be some of the most fun characters to play in the entire game. Sure, I enjoy playing Ryze and Cho'Gath, but that's really mostly because I get kills with them and they're tanky.

Blitzcrank has such a great reputation that people become afraid of you the moment you enter that bot lane brush and start zoning the hell out of Soraka and Ashe. Hell, his passive could even be considered similar to Volibear's, except that it scales to late game instead of early game and isn't shut down by ignite (although, it doesn't have QUITE the same bait potential).

Leona is stunning. Just stunning.

I like Zilean, too, even if he's not considered to be all that great of a support anymore because revive has SO many uses. SO many. I'm actually thinking of someone to go duoqueuing with me so that we can do Zilean/Tryndamere bot lane. At level 6, initiate towerdive.

[Dienekes]

Alright I have a question. I'm trying to expand my playset a bit, doing more than just tanks and assassins. So I decided Graves looks pretty cool so I'm gonna try him out. Unfortunately I suck with him. I don't know what to build outside the basic ad carry set I see everyone use, and I keep getting outlaned by other carries that seem to have much longer range than me.

So, any advice how not to suck with him?

[Talesin]

Support discussion

I agree about Blitz in lane but after that I really don't find him that threatening, though I guess most supports aren't that threatening apart from Leona. I've seen him turn games though, grabbing a fed Cass into our team and knocking her up meant we dropped her before her ult.

I don't really get why zilean isn't a good support. He's got the slow, or speed, the double bomb for a ton of harass (though at high levels this pushes the waves but down at my ELO waves generally get pushed during the whole match anyway) and the ability to save a carry from a fight.

But even when i've run with him i've always thought he was awful.

So, any advice how not to suck with him?

It depends on the support and the lane you're against but he's got a ton of burst and a really good steroid with his E, but his range is awful so you need to be careful in team fights. I usually start dorans with sustaining supports or boots pots without. I then go 2 more dorans and boots 2, in whatever order seems more effective depending on how the lane is going, harassing with the EQ combo if it won't push the lane and it actually does something meaningful against the other team.

Against certain other carry/support combos you can usually harass on the way up to 6 then burn an EQR to get a kill. Graves is pretty mana intensive and that's why he works so well with Soraka. I'd be tempted to run Mp5 blues on him, or go 21 0 9 if I didn't have soraka, and I would say that graves is definitely a viable candidate for blue later in the game (or early enough if you can steal it for him).

Further items to build are the classic IE/BT/PD/LW. I've been staying away from BT on a fair number of my ad carries just because the amplified crit damage from IE/PD seems much more useful to me than the lifesteal and AD granted by BT, but his wasn't anything to do with the BT changes last patch.

My end build tends to be Boots 2/IE/PD/PD/LW with a final slot either for BT or a defensive item, sometimes I trade the second PD for Wits end if their AP is a fed or providing me with problems. I'm sure there are other builds out there that might be more effective but I find this works pretty well for me.

[Astrella]

Leona is stunning. Just stunning.

I see what you did there.

In my experience you can be very aggressive with basically any support; though it depends a lot on the actual lane setup. Lulu is another support I like to play very aggressively because she has such efficient mana costs.

[ex cathedra]

Well the last conversation ran it's course and there hasn't been anything to talk about aside from GAWD RIOT WHAR PATCH.

Apparently, the Hecarim patch is bugged to all hell, so they're delaying it to next week. Incidentally, this was only revealed in one of the less-visited recesses of the forums and not where anyone was really likely to see it until word got around.

There are a ton of pretty big bugs going around. Viktor's W can't stun people anymore (PBE only) and Viktor's R has the double-cast bug which either doubles the animation or doubles the animation and the initial damage (apparently Live realm) come to mind.

[Neoseanster]

I don't really get why zilean isn't a good support. He's got the slow, or speed, the double bomb for a ton of harass (though at high levels this pushes the waves but down at my ELO waves generally get pushed during the whole match anyway) and the ability to save a carry from a fight.

But even when i've run with him i've always thought he was awful.

Zilean has pretty good harass in lane with his bombs and high autoattack range and good utility with his speed buff/ultimate, but he has weaknesses as well.

He doesn't offer any form of sustain (whether through healing or damage mitigation) until he has his ultimate at 6, his mana costs are pretty atrociously high (thankfully lowered slightly next patch!), he doesn't have the same kill lane potential as other sustainless supports like Leona and Blitzcrank, he doesn't have the same buffing/debuffing potential as Nunu (Time Warp affects movement speed only, not attack speed), and as noted, he can hard push the wave by default if he's harassing and letting his opponent run the bomb into minion range.

That said, I do quite enjoy him, and he's still awfully brutal against a lane that can't easily answer his harass. I think he needs some tweaks to really be competitive as a support rather than just an AP mid, but he's certainly passable as it, and the upcoming mana cost reductions should help a bit.

On a side note, jungle Zilean is totally a thing that works. Not as good as jungle Janna, though.

[ex cathedra]

Alright I have a question. I'm trying to expand my playset a bit, doing more than just tanks and assassins. So I decided Graves looks pretty cool so I'm gonna try him out. Unfortunately I suck with him. I don't know what to build outside the basic ad carry set I see everyone use, and I keep getting outlaned by other carries that seem to have much longer range than me.

So, any advice how not to suck with him?

Just last hit. Ward up and push your lane then take potshots with Q/W/AA while they're trying to farm at tower. If you're laning against someone with more range and you just lane normally, you're going to lose because you can't trade favorably as long as they keep their distance. Take control of the bush and abuse your burst. Once you finish your first major item, abuse the fact that you potentially have the strongest midgame of any AD carry.

AD carries should build Zerkers, Infinity Edge, Phantom Dancer, Bloodthirster, and Last Whisper. No exceptions, for the most part. Last slot is reserved for QSS or Guardian Angel, depending on which is more relevant. Start the game with Boots+3 unless you're laning with Soraka. Get two Doran's, a Vamp Scepter, Zerkers, and build BF Sword into IE. Follow up with Zeal into Phantom Dancer. Add BT, LW, or QSS to taste.

2x Doran's > Zerkers > Wriggle's > Phantom Dancer is fine if you're losing really hard and 2x Doran's > Zerkers > Bloodthirster is fine if you don't need to do anything but farm and push and sustain.

I don't really get why zilean isn't a good support. He's got the slow, or speed, the double bomb for a ton of harass (though at high levels this pushes the waves but down at my ELO waves generally get pushed during the whole match anyway) and the ability to save a carry from a fight.

But even when i've run with him i've always thought he was awful.

Zilean is relatively useful with farm and blue buff. Zilean is relatively useless without farm and blue buff. AP Zilean is thus a thing, if a recently unpopular one, and Support Zilean is not.

[Boowells]

Zilean is relatively useful with farm and blue buff. Zilean is relatively useless without farm and blue buff. AP Zilean is thus a thing, if a recently unpopular one, and Support Zilean is not.

The thing is that he has great zoning potential. Those bombs REALLY start hurting and people get nervous with one ticking away on them. None of the people at my ELO, except me, apparently, know to actually run TOWARDS your minion wave when you've been bombed.

He can get enemies to half health easily and simply. At that point, it's just a matter of towerdiving them, which they never expect despite Zilean being known for his revive. However, one question: do his bombs still ignore enemy MR if you place them on friendly units? Because if so, I want to start playing suicide terrorist Zilean. It would be hilarious, although his mana costs are really going to hurt.

[Qwertystop]

The thing is that he has great zoning potential. Those bombs REALLY start hurting and people get nervous with one ticking away on them. None of the people at my ELO, except me, apparently, know to actually run TOWARDS your minion wave when you've been bombed.

He can get enemies to half health easily and simply. At that point, it's just a matter of towerdiving them, which they never expect despite Zilean being known for his revive. However, one question: do his bombs still ignore enemy MR if you place them on friendly units? Because if so, I want to start playing suicide terrorist Zilean. It would be hilarious, although his mana costs are really going to hurt.

Um... Don't you mean run AWAY from your minion wave? Otherwise you're helping Zilean push.

[toasty]

I mean if you want more content I could tell you in detail about the two games The Cool Kids Table (also known as The Bearded Legion) played last night and how we played against a 1900 smurf account that apparently has a 100% winratio with Cass (and yes, this person played Cass) and we completely failed to do much to the cass because of this.

Oh, and I also learned that galio probably is not a very strong laner top lane, which is funny cuz he goes fine middle. But you know when Irelia should be able to kill you but she's dumb then yeah, you need to change your runes or something.

Oh, and I bought runes! MR Reds. And I have TWO galio pages now. That's what happens when you have 19 rune pages and don't wanna do homework on a Thursday morning.

[Neoseanster]

Um... Don't you mean run AWAY from your minion wave? Otherwise you're helping Zilean push.

Early game, pushing a lane is actually often regarded as a negative thing. You see, if you have the minion wave pushed up under the enemy tower, and you're far from your own, you are very vulnerable to jungle ganks, while at the same time it's much more difficult for your own jungler to gank, because the enemy laners are protected by their tower. Further, it's sometimes more difficult to harass under the tower, and attempting it carries the risk of accidentally taking a tower shot or two, which can instantly turn an otherwise won lane against you.

It's still situationally a useful tactic, but one to be careful with; it's harder to last hit under the tower than it is in the middle of a lane, especially for less practiced players, and with good ward coverage you'll be fairly safe anyway. It's also very useful to push a lane to the tower if the enemy laner is killed or forced to recall, so that it will kill off minions while they aren't getting gold or experience from it at all.

[Boowells]

Plus, it screws up the AD carry's last hitting.

[Eldariel]

Early game, pushing a lane is actually often regarded as a negative thing. You see, if you have the minion wave pushed up under the enemy tower, and you're far from your own, you are very vulnerable to jungle ganks, while at the same time it's much more difficult for your own jungler to gank, because the enemy laners are protected by their tower. Further, it's sometimes more difficult to harass under the tower, and attempting it carries the risk of accidentally taking a tower shot or two, which can instantly turn an otherwise won lane against you.

It's still situationally a useful tactic, but one to be careful with; it's harder to last hit under the tower than it is in the middle of a lane, especially for less practiced players, and with good ward coverage you'll be fairly safe anyway. It's also very useful to push a lane to the tower if the enemy laner is killed or forced to recall, so that it will kill off minions while they aren't getting gold or experience from it at all.

Usually, early game you want to push to enable you to base while denying your opponent the same chance. Mid and top want to roam, too. However, pushing at the expense of CS or by enabling a jungle gank is obviously a no-go.

[Math_Mage]

Alright I have a question. I'm trying to expand my playset a bit, doing more than just tanks and assassins. So I decided Graves looks pretty cool so I'm gonna try him out. Unfortunately I suck with him. I don't know what to build outside the basic ad carry set I see everyone use, and I keep getting outlaned by other carries that seem to have much longer range than me.

So, any advice how not to suck with him?

I think Toasty and Zach can vouch for my Graves.

Here's the thing: range largely compensates for poor trading. Graves is comparable to Corki, Urgot, Sivir, and MF--other carries that have short AA ranges to make up for their great trades (I don't list Ez because his Q might as well be part of his range). When you're getting outranged by Ashe, Caitlyn, or Kog'maw, your response to being harassed should be to dash in and throw your own harass at them. This is why I like Graves-Soraka lanes: armor on top of armor on top of heals and you basically win trades forever, plus you can freely counter-harass with your skills because you have eternal mana, PLUS you can take Doran's Blade start for even better trading. If you have Graves-Taric or Graves-Janna, you can walk up to the CC'd opponent and get off a full shotgun blast of Q which will also win any trade. Graves-Sona has ridiculous amounts of harass at range. Basically, you want to look for opportunities to jump on the enemy at early levels.

If you want to lane against Graves, you probably want to take a passive sustainer like Sona or Soraka. If Graves can't trade favorably in lane, he'll lose when he starts taking free damage from Corki R, or Vayne Q, or Ashe/Kog/Trist autos. And if you can bait his E, he can't really run from a gank.

[fred dref]

I like Zilean, too, even if he's not considered to be all that great of a support anymore because revive has SO many uses. SO many. I'm actually thinking of someone to go duoqueuing with me so that we can do Zilean/Tryndamere bot lane. At level 6, initiate towerdive.

calimist and Hamr have a really nasty Zilean/Singed bottom lane they like to run. Youtube has at least one video.

Unrelated, I played a game that really showed why you need to pay attention to your picks in Draft Mode. A few friends and myself had first pick last night, and our jungler was first pick. He picked Maokai, because he rather likes him. Ok, fine. We'll grab a higher damage top to make up for it and it'll be ok. Enemy team picks Anivia/Soraka. Annoying, but reasonable, although they left themselves open to mid being counterpicked. Now, we had absolutely no idea what beats Anivia, so we just grabbed Ahri because our mid really likes Ahri, and our bottom lane saw the writing on the wall and grabbed a lategame damage-dealer, because he wasn't going to get a big advantage in lane against a Soraka. Kog'maw it is.

Here's where the enemy team messed up. Their next two picks were Nocturne and Fiora. They now had Anivia, Soraka, two melee AD champions and no AD carry. Either they pick an AD carry and are really, really carry-heavy, or they grab a Vlad-type champion and send Fiora or Nocturne bottom. Either way, not a good pick, but it didn't need to be a bad pick. However, one thing came back to bite them in the ass. Malphite is free this week.

One Malphite/Janna pick later and they were done. Fiora beat me top lane, as this was my first ever Malphite game, but it really didn't matter. Randuin's, Shurelia's and Frozen Heart, plus the obligatory Aegis, meant that 3 of their team did little damage to me (or anyone, really. Permanently reducing Noct/Fiora attack speed by 60% hurts, and Corki had no items due to our bottom lane being just better.) One of them did no damage at all and I had enough HP to survive incidental Anivia damage. Maokai ulting on top of Anivia's ult helped too.

The lesson is, don't pick triple-carry when Malphite is still open.

[PersonMan]

So. I've been playing again Malphite recently. It's always been either 1v2 or 2v2 top, never 1v1.

So much fun. I don't know why, but last hitting seems easier as him than other people (I guess I like his AA animation).

Oh, and dat ult. Also, I love FH. I don't know why I never thought of building it before it became a recommended item.

Also: Malph/GP top strong. Double ult = you win the fight.

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[ex cathedra]

When you're getting outranged by Ashe, Caitlyn, or Kog'maw, your response to being harassed should be to dash in and throw your own harass at them.

The main issue here is that Kog'Maw just doesn't lose that trade because He gets 1/2 free autos in before you dash into range and then he just Q's away your passive. You're also in range of Janna Tornado/Slow or Nunu Iceball and in both of these cases Kog'Maw is out-DPSing you even face-to-face. It gets even worse for Graves when his E expires, because Kog'Maw (and especially Nunu+Kog'Maw) still has his steroid and he's going to get two or three additional free autos once you leave his range. It's pretty dumb.

Cait has comparable poke and can counter-dash, the main issue is that Graves can afk push to her tower and force an early end to the laning phase. At that point in the game Graves is super useful and Caitlyn immediately begins to fall off.

Graves just wrecks Ashe, though. Like, seriously. Approaches hard counter.

[toasty]

The main issue here is that Kog'Maw just doesn't lose that trade because He gets 1/2 free autos in before you dash into range and then he just Q's away your passive. You're also in range of Janna Tornado/Slow or Nunu Iceball and in both of these cases Kog'Maw is out-DPSing you even face-to-face. It gets even worse for Graves when his E expires, because Kog'Maw (and especially Nunu+Kog'Maw) still has his steroid and he's going to get two or three additional free autos once you leave his range. It's pretty dumb.

Cait has comparable poke and can counter-dash, the main issue is that Graves can afk push to her tower and force an early end to the laning phase. At that point in the game Graves is super useful and Caitlyn immediately begins to fall off.

Graves just wrecks Ashe, though. Like, seriously. Approaches hard counter.

I think its fair to say that Kog'maw is kinda one of the best ADs right now. Graves isn't. The matchup is completely borked. A good graves+soraka combo can attempt to use Brush and try to not let the lane push up against kog'maw too much so that they don't take all the free damage forever, but yeah, Kog'maw is kinda dumb right now.

[ex cathedra]

I think its fair to say that Kog'maw is kinda one of the best ADs right now. Graves isn't. The matchup is completely borked. A good graves+soraka combo can attempt to use Brush and try to not let the lane push up against kog'maw too much so that they don't take all the free damage forever, but yeah, Kog'maw is kinda dumb right now.

I think that Kog'Maw is really good but not a problem, it's his synergy with Janna that makes him problematic. She kind of eliminates all of his weaknesses.

I also think that Vayne got over-nerfed and that Graves would be in a good spot if he didn't have a bad matchup against Kog'Maw.

[fred dref]

Doublelift mentioned that he thinks Kog'Maw was so popular in this tourny because Corki was so popular in the last one. Kog'maw being a really strong counter to Corki.

[PersonMan]

Instalock Shen makes me mad. Grrrrr!

So I jungle Malphite.

Malphite: the jungling armor carry

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Flawless Victory!

Oh, and Ashe makes a great mid for Malph ganks. Double ulti = win...again.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

I just bought Pantheon, and gave him a spin in the jungle. Good times. Going to try toplane soon, but I'm not sure how he works there. Poke lots with Q, I guess? I get the impression he's a somewhat situational pick, but I'm not sure which matchups to look out for both for countering and getting countered. Tips?

Also, what's a good item build when laning? 2-3 Dorans into Atmallet+Maw?

[Winthur]

I just bought Pantheon, and gave him a spin in the jungle. Good times. Going to try toplane soon, but I'm not sure how he works there. Poke lots with Q, I guess? I get the impression he's a somewhat situational pick, but I'm not sure which matchups to look out for both for countering and getting countered. Tips?

You murder Gangplank and generally have problems with people with (overblown) sustain. Probably not a good pick against Udyr or Olaf. He is a strong counterpick against many middle lane champions, particularly ones like Morgana. Middle Pantheon has some pretty good map presence post 6.