Large-scale Battles

[shamgar001]

I'm working on devising a system for a larger battle in my campaign, and I'd love to get some input from others.

The specific scenario is that the heroes are aiding a settlement in rebelling against their conquerors, and they've been put in charge of the main army. In addition to fighting, they must also command the rebel fighters. Rather than controlling them all myself or dividing them amongst the players, I thought I'd adapt a system used in the Game Boy game Lord of the Rings: The Third Age.

At the beginning of their turn, each player gets a certain amount of "command points", which they use to move the rebels. They can only move a rebel who hasn't moved since the end of their last turn, and each CP is worth a full set of actions (all used on one rebel).

I haven't worked out exactly how the CPs will be distributed; I'm thinking some function of a charisma check (such as check total divided by 5). Ideally a player with average charisma would get 1-3 CPs per turn and a high score would get 3-5. I can't give them too many or else the person at the bottom of initiative won't ever get a chance to use them. I had considered just using the modifier, but I'd like there to be some randomness involved. Maybe I'm just being too picky.

For XP, I would start by balancing the enemies with only the heroes, and that sets the level. Then I would add allies, balancing them with additional enemies. I'd like there to be some incentive to keep allies alive, so I was thinking perhaps the XP value of living allies would be dependent on them being alive. For example:

Level 5 encounter (Party level 3, 5 members): 750 XP
Total enemy XP value: 1000
Allies XP value: 250

So if they win the encounter, but none of the rebels survive, they only get 500 XP. No casualties would result in the full 750.

Thoughts?

[Mandrake]

I am confused about two things, and after solving them, I'd be happy to keep on commenting:

1) What does "large-scale" mean? If I understand your example correctly, there will be about 10-15 allies (rebels), right? So it's not really an army versus another army.

2) What does "no casualties" mean? Note that at least some rebels should be minions, and those die easily. Plus, it's no fun if no-one dies in a climactic battle. If there is no chance of allied minions dying, then the PCs could probably do the battle by themselves, if they exert themselves in it. (So try scaling it up a bit.)

[shamgar001]

1) What does "large-scale" mean? If I understand your example correctly, there will be about 10-15 allies (rebels), right? So it's not really an army versus another army.

I mean larger than the typical 5 heroes vs. X monsters. 15+ rebels is about right.

2) What does "no casualties" mean? Note that at least some rebels should be minions, and those die easily. Plus, it's no fun if no-one dies in a climactic battle. If there is no chance of allied minions dying, then the PCs could probably do the battle by themselves, if they exert themselves in it. (So try scaling it up a bit.)

I certainly expect allies to die, but I want the PCs to have an incentive to keep them alive as much as possible.

[Mandrake]

Ok, then do it like it this (a mere suggestion):

Based on Charisma score and a certain amount of randomness (don't need d20 roll, you can go thinner, maybe a d10 or something) assign them CPs which include a maximum number of rebels they can command. You can even make it a skill challenge to win as many chips possible. After that, divide it amongst players as you see fittingly (also, Charisma score, as you said + random ponder is ok). By this I mean that they win the trust of a certain number of rebels who are willing to risk their lives listening to the PCs (the better one acts, which means Cha+random, the more will do as he commands). Why is it important to get as many rebels under your wing? Because those that aren't are a liability - they go against the commands, do what they want to do, easily die or even interfere with plans and strategy of combat (randomly selected actions each turn). Also, if people start dying in your team, rebels can either switch to another character if he is doing stuff right for his team, or go wild (become like those you don't control). So, if rebels die, they stop listening to you.
A character could issue commands with a free action to his team, and you could treat a single team as a single monster. The more rebels, the stronger the team. (If you like this idea, we can discuss it later more thoroughly.)
As far as XP goes, it simply add up the number of surviving rebels that they commandto the XP number players get for killing the enemies. That way, they'll do their best not only to keep rebels alive, but to make sure that their lives aren't risked insanely (which will make them disobey you), thusly acting like a true commander.

Hope this helps and that we will continue building this. Cheers!

[dariathalon]

As for handling how many command points to hand out to each player, how about this for a solution.

Everybody gets 1 automatically so nobody feels left out of the fun.

You run a short "skill challenge" like thing before you start. Each player needs to roll 4 more times for other skill checks on things like diplomacy, intimidate, history, etc. Set the DCs in advance based on how helpful you think each skill would be. Either tell the players they can make only one skill check per skill or tell them that there will be a scaling DC for the number of attempts they make on a skill. (For example if you set a DC of 13 for Diplomacy and a player decides to make all rolls on diplomacy their first check would be against DC 13, then DC 16, then DC 19 and DC 22.)

This would add an extra layer of complexity onto what already sounds like a very complex encounter. But, it would achieve the range of command points you're after and allow you a lot of control (through choosing the skills and DCs) of what type of character gets how many command points.

Honestly, I think I'd be tempted to treat this whole encounter as a heavily modified skill check though, just because it will be so complicated.

[Mandrake]

Everybody gets 1 automatically so nobody feels left out of the fun.

Agree on that.

Note that the skill challenge doesn't mean that they can fail and go no CP, just determines the number of CPs they get (with the minimum of each get 1, which most probably won't happen, and the maximum equaling the number of rebels total), then split it amongst each other - they could, say, each get a number of chips depending on how many wins they got for the challenge, or they could even agree on it (Ranger takes only and all of the archers, for example), just make sure no one leads "more than he can carry" depending on the skill challenge.

Honestly, I think I'd be tempted to treat this whole encounter as a heavily modified skill check though, just because it will be so complicated.

I wouldn't, but I think we might agree on it more than it seems. I'd, as I've said, treat each rebel group as a single monster. The player rolls for his group and decides what the group does (if he controls it, as I've said earlier). There is no need for skills here because (1) they will ruin the strategy thing the PCs might want to devise and (2) there are no real skills that fit perfectly in what they do - it's combat.
Best advice, simplify it. One group = one monster. One roll (1d6 for example, if 5 in group) determines a number of hits. A hit is a kill, lowering the group's strength. Treat enemies like minions, and make PCs deal with non-minions mostly. A good idea adds bonuses to attack or defense, maybe even a free attack. This all leads my to second best advice - improvise it. Good idea? Go for it. They still have to clash with the generals of the other side, so don't put so much weight only on commanding.

I have a feeling this will continue. :)

[Yakk]

An important consideration is that the minions should be capable of engaging in the "real" fight. Another important consideration is that if the mechanics of running the allies is significant, then their contribution should be as well. I wouldn't be afraid to have the entire allied force contribute as much "XP budget" as the PCs do for a single fight, especially when it is 5 PCs and dozens of allies.

I like the bucket of d6 simplification to make it go quickly.

Minions have defences, attacks and damage levels. These are used to interact with non-minions.

Minion vs Minion: Roll 1d6. A 5+ is a kill. (Against tough minions, you need a 6+).

Give minions flavor in their MvM fights: Archers have a ranged attack and move 6. Soldiers are tough minions, and have move 5. Skirmishers get a +1 to hit if they flank, get 1 free shift, and move 8.

10 minions in a 5x5 block is a standard formation. If you hit them with a blast, you get to attack (# of squares/2) minions with your attack (round up). The same technique can be used to figure out how many targets are adjacent to you (for powers like cleave).

[shamgar001]

I like the idea of using a skill challenge to determine the total number of CPs per round. Perhaps then the players could all roll something at the beginning of the round to decide how they are distributed.




(By the way, if anyone is interested, here's a video of the game that I'm basing this on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkvWoyO_tvM)

[Palegreenpants]

Using hoards of medium monsters is an interesting way to involve lots of monsters in combat.

[shamgar001]

Adding to my thoughts from earlier, my intention was to use stat blocks from the MM (such an elven archer, human rabble, etc.) I can make them minions simply by giving them 1 HP and dividing their XP value by 4, correct?

[Mandrake]

I can make them minions simply by giving them 1 HP and dividing their XP value by 4, correct?

Umm, not quite, if I remember correctly. But it's simple, really:

Dungeon Master's Guide 2, page 133. It's like a half of a page, has all of the info.

EDIT: Actually, upon reading, it's really close to what you said. Check it out, anyway.

[Yakk]

Adding to my thoughts from earlier, my intention was to use stat blocks from the MM (such an elven archer, human rabble, etc.) I can make them minions simply by giving them 1 HP and dividing their XP value by 4, correct?

You also will want to change their damage expression (minions don't roll damage, and do less damage per hit on average than normal monsters).

Another detail is that minions are streamlined further than normal monsters. Minions will have fewer abilities, and they will be less state-ful (fewer recharge abilities), etc. You are going to be dealing with 4 times as many minions, so they are reworked to be easier to handle each.