Results 1 to 13 of 13
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Titan in the Playground
     
    TheFallenOne's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Heidelberg, Germany
    Gender
    Male

    Default [3.5] The Vanguard(Scout/ToB PrC)

    The Vanguard

    In every army, there is the first line of offense, those who go out to scout the enemy, secure advanced positions and engage the opponent in small skirmishes before the armies meet in open battle. This is the Vanguard.
    Vanguards operate in small groups, experts at striking an unsuspecting foe to vanquish him before he has time to get organized. A pitched battle with locked formations is not the right place for a Vanguard. He fights best when he can move about freely, keeping his enemy off balance by expertly striking from an unexpected angle.

    Becoming a Vanguard

    This class favours those who use their mobility and stealth to gain an initial advantage over their foe. All Vanguards have Scout levels, and most of them have a few levels of Warblade or Swordsage as well, but some Scouts choose instead to take the Martial Study and Martial Stance feats to become a Vanguard.
    There are two types of Vanguards. Most of them rely on pure skill and determination, learning the Iron Heart and Tiger Claw disciplines. A few though use their supernatural control over shadows as well for stealth and misdirection. Those Vanguards learn the Iron Heart and Shadow Hand disciplines.

    ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
    Skills:
    8 Hide, 8 Move Silently, 5 Spot, 5 Survival
    Feats: Track
    Abilities: Skirmish +1d6/+1 AC
    Martial Maneuvers: One stance of the Iron Heart, Shadow Hand or Tiger Claw disciplines.


    THE VANGUARD____________HIT DIE: d10
    {table=head]Level|
    Base Attack Bonus
    |Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|
    Maneuvers known
    |
    Maneuvers readied
    |
    Stances known
    |Special

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |
    0
    |
    0
    |
    0
    |
    Offensive Recovery

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |
    1
    |
    0
    |
    0
    |
    Skirmish +1d6

    3rd|
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    0
    |
    0
    |
    0
    |
    Quick Finish

    4th|
    +3
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    1
    |
    0
    |
    0
    |
    Fast Movement +10 ft, Skirmish +1d6/+1 AC

    5th|
    +3
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    0
    |
    1
    |
    1
    |Ready for Battle

    6th|
    +4
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    1
    |
    0
    |
    0
    |
    Vexing Flanker, Skirmish +2d6/+1 AC

    7th|
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    0
    |
    0
    |
    0
    |
    Unhinging Offense

    8th|
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    1
    |
    0
    |
    0
    |
    Fast Movement +20 ft, Skirmish +2d6/+2 AC

    9th|
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    |
    0
    |
    1
    |
    0
    |
    Unrelenting Assault

    10th|
    +7
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    1
    |
    0
    |
    0
    |
    Skirmish +3d6/+2 AC
    [/table]
    Class Skills(6+Int modifier per level): Balance, Climb, Disable Device, Hide, Jump, Knowledge(Dungeoneering), Knowledge(Nature), Listen, Martial Lore, Move Silently, Ride, Search, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble.

    Class Features

    Weapon and armor proficiencies: The Vanguard gains no new weapon or armor proficiencies.

    Maneuvers: At each even-numbered level the Vanguard gains one new maneuver known. He must meet the maneuver's prerequisite to learn it. He adds his full Vanguard level to his initiator level to determine the total initiator level and the highest-level maneuvers known.
    At 5th and 9th level, he gains an additional maneuver readied.
    Special: A character who enters the Vanguard through an Iron Heart or Tiger Claw stance knows the Iron Heart and Tiger Claw disciplines. A character who enters the Vanguard through a Shadow Hand stance knows the Iron Heart and Shadow Hand disciplines. If a character fulfills both conditions he can choose either option when taking his first Vanguard level.

    Offensive Recovery(Ex): Whenever the Vanguard is eligible for rolling Skirmish damage, he may use a Swift action to sacrifice some of the Skirmish dice. The Vanguard instantly recovers a prepared maneuver of a level equal to the number of dice sacrificed.
    You can't recover a maneuver previously expended in the same turn.

    Quick finish(Ex): A Vanguard is an expert at dispatching foes not prepared for his sudden assault. When attacking a flatfooted foe, the Vanguard gains two additional Skirmish dice.

    Fast movement(Ex): Starting at 4th level, a Vanguard gains a +10 ft enhancement bonus to his base land speed. At 8th level this increases to 20 ft.
    This bonus stacks with the Scout's fast movement bonus of the same type, but not other enhancement boni to base land speed.

    Ready for Battle(Ex): Most Vanguards favor a mix of Stances, some to help with scouting and detection, others to give an advantage once combat begins.
    At fifth level, a Vanguard has learned to quickly adapt to the sudden start of combat at a moment's notice. When initiative is rolled, the Vanguard can instantly switch to another Stance without expending a Swift action.

    Stances known: At 5th level, the Vanguard learns a new martial stance from one of his class disciplines. He must meet the stance's prerequisite to learn it.

    Vexing Flanker: The Vanguard has learned to coordinate with his allies, rapidly moving into advantageous positions to circumvent his opponent's defenses. At 6th level, he gains the feat of the same name, even if he doesn't fulfill the prerequisites.

    Unhinging Offense(Ex): At 7th level, a Vanguard has learned to prevent his enemies from regaining their focus and readiness after a momentary surprise.
    When attacking a target that is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, the Vanguard can sacrifice some of his Skirmish dice if he is eligible for the bonus damage. If hit, the target has to make a Reflex save(DC 10+Vanguard class levels+2x number of Skirmish dice sacrificed).
    On failure, the target is stunned until the end of the Vanguard's next turn.

    Unrelenting Assault (Ex): At 9th level, a Vanguard learned to strain his body to the breaking point, pressing the assault in spite of obstacles and effects that would stop a lesser man.
    By activating this ability as an immediate action, the Vanguard benefits from an effect identical with the Freedom of Movement spell until he dismisses it as a free action. The Vanguard takes 2d6 points of nonlethal damage whenever Unrelenting Assault is active at the start of his turn.
    Last edited by TheFallenOne; 2012-08-03 at 01:45 PM.
    Not a member of the Bayesian Conspiracy. Honestly. Probably. Maybe.
    Find your own priors!



  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lix Lorn's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Missing her mistress
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: [3.5] The Vanguard(Scout/ToB PrC)

    I like it! I may use it if I can find a game. :)
    Recent Homebrew: The Socialite | The Crystalline: Memory Altering Construct Race | Sanguine Hand, a ToB Discipline of blood and cruelty
    Homebrew Signature
    Thanks to all my avatar artists, especially to Paisley for my avatar of Vivian, cowardly cryophoenix.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
     
    TheFallenOne's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Heidelberg, Germany
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] The Vanguard(Scout/ToB PrC)

    Glad to hear it

    changed it so a new maneuver is learned on every even-numbered level, as this is more in line with the progression of the official PrCs in ToB. Had to move new readied maneuver from 4th and 8th to 5th and 9th to keep the levels balanced against each other.
    Not a member of the Bayesian Conspiracy. Honestly. Probably. Maybe.
    Find your own priors!



  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Wyntonian's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Oregon
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] The Vanguard(Scout/ToB PrC)

    I'll be honest, if you've stayed mundane long enough to reach the capstone of this class, I don't think you need to take 1d4 points of con damage. Maybe 2d6 subdual if you really want there to be a penalty, but I'm not sure it even needs that.
    Guess who's good at avatars? Thormag. That's who.

    A Campaign Setting more than a year in the making, Patria!

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Dusk Eclipse's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    In the ruins of San de So
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] The Vanguard(Scout/ToB PrC)

    What about a Swordsage that enters with stances from both Shadow Hand and Tiger claw? Heck it is quite possible to enter the class with stances from the three disciplines (Martial Study or an Iron Heart Vest for say Wall of Blades and Martial Stance for Punishing stance)?

    I missed on a my first read though that it gains a stance at level 5, you might want to add that so it is clearer.

    I also suggest you add a bit more skirimish dice, as this class main features depend on them and a single (or in some cases 2) die of skirimish over the course of 10 levels is just too low, compare it to the assassin, which is the most similar class I can think of, it gives spells and 5 die of sneak attack (which is somewhat stronger than skirimish).

    Just my thoughts; but in general I am impressed, it seems like a fun class.
    Just call me Dusk
    Avatar by Ceika

    Spoiler: Iron Chef Trophy/Characters
    Show

    Stephan & Artorias sigatars by CoffeeIncluded, IC thropy by Savannah

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
     
    TheFallenOne's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Heidelberg, Germany
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] The Vanguard(Scout/ToB PrC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyntonian View Post
    I'll be honest, if you've stayed mundane long enough to reach the capstone of this class, I don't think you need to take 1d4 points of con damage. Maybe 2d6 subdual if you really want there to be a penalty, but I'm not sure it even needs that.
    Are you sure? Freedom of Movement is a really nice thing to have, especially when it's (Ex).
    I added the penalty because a straight Scout gets the same thing on level 18, with this class you can get it earlier so I thought I need to make up for that(plus, I really like the picture of the Vanguard refusing to be slowed down even at the cost of making his own body break apart. Badass).
    Then again, Scout is Tier 4, so maybe not the best reference point for when an ability should be gained.
    I'll certainly think about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    What about a Swordsage that enters with stances from both Shadow Hand and Tiger claw? Heck it is quite possible to enter the class with stances from the three disciplines (Martial Study or an Iron Heart Vest for say Wall of Blades and Martial Stance for Punishing stance)?
    In that case he can choose which option to take.
    My main concern was this: I wanted characters who enter the class with supernatural stealth abilities to be able to keep developing those. But I didn't want a character who doesn't have such abilities to pick them up from this class.
    Vanguard is essentially divided into a mundane and a supernatural variant.

    I missed on a my first read though that it gains a stance at level 5, you might want to add that so it is clearer.
    Got it, will add that on next edit.

    I also suggest you add a bit more skirimish dice, as this class main features depend on them and a single (or in some cases 2) die of skirimish over the course of 10 levels is just too low, compare it to the assassin, which is the most similar class I can think of, it gives spells and 5 die of sneak attack (which is somewhat stronger than skirimish).
    Well, Sneak Attack has generally a faster progression than Skirmish both in the base classes and PrCs. Highland Stalker is maybe the better comparison, and he gets +3d6/+2 AC over 10 levels.
    I can maybe advance the Skirmish progression to that level, but I wouldn't want to go over 3d6.


    Thanks your for input
    Last edited by TheFallenOne; 2012-03-28 at 01:57 PM.
    Not a member of the Bayesian Conspiracy. Honestly. Probably. Maybe.
    Find your own priors!



  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2011

    Default Re: [3.5] The Vanguard(Scout/ToB PrC)

    This looks like a fun class. The scout is one of my favorite classes and I don't think it gets enough love.
    A question about the special under maneuvers though. What if some has both types of stances? Do they get to choose?
    Offensive Recover could get insane. May I suggest limiting it to once per round or maybe set it up like power attack (where you would sacrifice the die for all attacks until your next turn)?
    Last edited by eftexar; 2012-03-28 at 05:45 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Titan in the Playground
     
    TheFallenOne's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Heidelberg, Germany
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] The Vanguard(Scout/ToB PrC)

    Quote Originally Posted by eftexar View Post
    This looks like a fun class. The scout is one of my favorite classes and I don't think it gets enough love.
    So sadly true. Extremely little official support and PrCs that advance Skirmish. Scout is my favourite class second to Warblade. And together... Well, this PrC should tell you I like the combination

    A question about the special under maneuvers though. What if some has both types of stances? Do they get to choose?
    Yes


    Offensive Recover could get insane. May I suggest limiting it to once per round or maybe set it up like power attack (where you would sacrifice the die for all attacks until your next turn)?
    Offensive Recovery is a Swift action and there are very few ways to get more than one per turn of those. I think you'd be hard-pressed to abuse this feature.
    In fact, it looks like you need the Improved Skirmish feat to make decent use of it. A Scout 4/Adept 1 has a single Skirmish die when entering the class, and progresses Skirmish way slower than maneuver levels.
    Not a member of the Bayesian Conspiracy. Honestly. Probably. Maybe.
    Find your own priors!



  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2011

    Default Re: [3.5] The Vanguard(Scout/ToB PrC)

    Ah, I had read it too fast (a bad habit of mine). I didn't catch the swift action clause.
    As far as the maneuvers though, I assumed so, but my issue would be with players who pick up this class but aren't as familiar with the rules as a lot of the homebrewers present on the forums.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Titan in the Playground
     
    TheFallenOne's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Heidelberg, Germany
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] The Vanguard(Scout/ToB PrC)

    I think it's quite unlikely an inexperienced player would somehow end up with a homebrew PrC requiring base classes from two different non-Core books. Chances are someone looking for a Scout/Warblade or Swordsage PrC is already decently versed in the rules.

    In any case, the design of the class doesn't add anything overly complicated on top of what Scouts and Martial Adepts already do. The recovery mechanic from Offensive Recovery for one is a lot simpler than how a Crusader does it.
    Last edited by TheFallenOne; 2012-03-29 at 03:36 PM.
    Not a member of the Bayesian Conspiracy. Honestly. Probably. Maybe.
    Find your own priors!



  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Cardea's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    TRAINTIEDUPHELP

    Default Re: [3.5] The Vanguard(Scout/ToB PrC)

    So I'm torn on this class. I like the idea behind the class, I like Scout support, and I like ToB, but this class doesn't... appeal to me, I guess. The niftiest parts are the ability to open Iron Heart to Swordsages, and the secondary maneuver recovery method. The Ready for Battle thing is cool, since that'd keep you open for a Boost or a Counter, but as for the rest...

    Quick Finish comes out to an extra 3.5 damage against flat-footed targets that Skirmish can be applied to; by the time you're getting this, you're probably 9th level.

    Unhinging Offense seems cool enough, since in theory you could keep using it on someone to keep them Flat-Footed. However, it'd only really matter if you had someone who relied on attacking someone who was Flat-Footed (I'm not including the Scout on this) such as a Rogue or Ninja, or if the person in question relied on Dodge/Dexterity to AC, or had a high enough AC, and you really needed the constant +4 from flanking.

    But unless you have a Rogue or Ninja in the party, there is no real damage bonus. If the person relies on a high Dexterity for AC, odds are they have a good Reflex Save and will most likely make the DC you force upon them, and if they have a high enough AC, there is a higher chance that they're getting it from something that isn't Dexterity. The DC for it will rise much slower than spells or other abilities that I don't see it becoming effective.

    As for the Unrelenting Assault, its very situational. Freedom of Movement only really comes in handy if a DM specifically has a spellcaster who will whip out spells that hamper movement. While its not implausible or impossible for one to do so, that's only a handful of spells out of two or three hundred possible/available. It'd help with grapples, sure, but Escape Artist is a class skill, and grapples only come up so often. And underwater combat is so rarely used, I think in the six years I've spent playing 3.5, its come up five times. In a game with a million and one possible tactics and strategies and encounters, this is only dealing with but a small handful.

    And all that aside, its only Freedom of Movement. Its a fourth level spell. You can have an NPC cast it on you for 360gp, plus an additional 40gp for how many more ten minute intervals you want of it. You can buy a wand of it for around 21,000gp. You can buy a ring of it for 40,000gp. The level that you get this, your wealth by level is 200,000gp; players typically get more than their WBL when they're playing through level by level, rather than making a character at a certain level (Which, honestly, I'm assuming is your play style, given the wonderful campaign you're running that sometimes gets a bit over my head). And none of these methods involve damaging yourself for 1d4 points of constitution for a class feature that you normally would've gotten in three more levels, if you hadn't gone with a ToB route.

    Put simply, you have a capstone that can be outdone by dropping a few coins. Sure, its (Ex), but unless you're dealing with situations where you can't rely on magic, buying it outright through the above methods would've been strictly better.

    Sorry if I come off as harsh; not the intent, just trying to give my take on it.
    Last edited by Cardea; 2012-04-08 at 08:30 AM.
    Avatar drawn by Oneris, many praises and prayers be to she.
    I am writing a post-love romance novel. Please ask me about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ajadea View Post
    Your $0.02 is a very large $0.02, Cardea.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Titan in the Playground
     
    TheFallenOne's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Heidelberg, Germany
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] The Vanguard(Scout/ToB PrC)

    Hm... So in short, you think the granted abilities are just not impressive enough for a 10 level PrC?

    I confess I was quite careful to keep most things low-key or situational, perhaps too much so. I really wanted to avoid it being a nobrainer to take this class if you're a Scout. And since Scout is Tier 4... Well, naturally the PrC wonÄt end up being spectacular with that premise.

    Unhinging Assault's effect may indeed be too little... Perhaps if the Flatfootedness actually does prevent acting, or an entirely different condition(Dazed? Stunned? Reduced to single standard action?). I had thought about that, but knowing how important the action economy is I thought it may be too much.

    Quick Finish might be bumped to 2d6.

    I do think Ex Freedom of Movement is a quite nifty thing to have. Though the situations where the Ex matters compared to the magic ring are rare(but when they do crop up, you're really happy about the ability)... Perhaps change it to an Immediate that lets you shake off an effect or condition preventing you from moving or acting freely? Sort of an immediate Iron Heart Surge, only without the strange and abusable wording.
    Not a member of the Bayesian Conspiracy. Honestly. Probably. Maybe.
    Find your own priors!



  13. - Top - End - #13
    Titan in the Playground
     
    TheFallenOne's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Heidelberg, Germany
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] The Vanguard(Scout/ToB PrC)

    Alright, the consensus seems to be 'needs moar DAKKA', so I upped the power a bit, but tried not to do too much.


    Advanced the Skirmish progression to be identical to the Highland Stalker's from CA.
    More Fast Movement.
    Changed the level of some features.
    Unhinging Offense is now 1 turn Stun. With the situational use I hope this isn't too much.
    Unrelenting Assault deals small amounts of nonlethal damage over time now.
    Not a member of the Bayesian Conspiracy. Honestly. Probably. Maybe.
    Find your own priors!



Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •