Took A Wrong Turn At Albuquerque [3.5 Base class, PEACH!]

[Seerow]

Okay, I missed the change to SLAs, but it still gets a pretty ridiculous number of spells. Let's look at the full example:


You get 20 SLAs to prepare. You have a +12 charisma modifier, because you add charisma to literally everything, and if you don't have at least that much you're doing something wrong. So you have a 32/9 = 4 9th level spells. 32/8 = 4*2=8 8th level spells. 32/7= 5 *3 = 15 7th level spells. 32/6 = 6 * 4 = 24 6th level spells. And that leaves you 1 extra SLA slot to put into a 5th levle spell, usable 5 times a day.

So in the end you have:
9th-4
8th-4(8)
7th-5(15)
6th-6(24)
5th-1(5)


Basically the only thing the fix really did was create just enough restriction to keep you from completely outclassing the wizard in 9th level spells, so you are just below him there. At every other spell level you outclass what even a Sorcerer can manage as soon as the spell level becomes available (this was shown to good effect in the post above how it outclasses the casters entirely at low level). So the 'fix' only really fixed 17+ to keep you from using a ton of 9th level spells.

[Hazuki]

The first thing I notice right off the bat is how SAD this class is.

By 20th Level, Cha determines -
Spells known that day
The DC for the SLAs
And adds to
All Saves
Initiative
Attack and Damage
AC (Dodge)

I think you got this idea from the Warblade. The problem with this is the Warblade isn't casting like a Wizard or Cleric.

Charisma is the worst attribute, mechanics-wise. Without giving goodies to the people taking the class, they're going to begrduge taking a high Charisma (Which I've seen happen a lot of times).

Dropping the Hit Die and BAB for this specifically is silly, because the Charisma to HP, to-hit, and damage come very late in the game. I could move them to earlier in the class progression...so I'll probably do that.

Actually, there's not much to dislike about this class (and that's not necessarily a good thing, balance wise.) Spells as SLAs mean you can wear armor plus a bonus equal to your undoubtably highest ability, Med-BAB and D8 HD means you're not useless in combat, 2 Good Saves, all modified by Cha, a high amount of skills per day, and daily changable bonus feats. AND they never really die, and even if they do, there's not a single drawback.

I've dropped the Hit Die to a d6, but I'm keeping the BAB. Do you have any ideas for an edit to the ressurection ability? I've seen very similar things all across base classes before, without drawbacks.

I'll change it so it's only from damage, yadda yadda, right now.]

And Hazuki, I'm playing this class in a campaign(I just changed my character to use this class instead of what I started with). It's level 10. Consider it a playtest. If you want to monitor the progress the IC thread is here. Just be aware there might be some conversations between me and the DM through PM due to the character's behind the scenes planning.

Thank you so much for this interest. I'll be sure to keep an eye on the game.

*snip*

The best litmus test for something like this is: Is there any reason I would want to not play this class? Is there anything else I'd rather play instead? Because as written, your class does literally everything in a way not even the Wizard can compete with, and that's really really bad. Even with my suggested nerfs, I'm pretty sure the class would rank above a Factotum, Chameleon, or other classes that are flexible in nature like this one is.

Alrighty, thank you for your input. I've changed the amount of times you can cast an SLA to 1/day, but made it so you can prepare an amount equal to your Class Level +3, so that's 4 spells per day at level 1, in total. Excluding Cantrips/Orisons.

I've nerfed the True Ressurection ability and switched around the Charisma ones, and reduced the cloning to 3/day, with the condition that you can only possess one at a time.

[Eloel]

And with those changes, we now have a low-T2, high-T3 class.

I love the class, I (now) love the balance. Finally a usable Cha-based Factotum-like lucky-go-round class.

Again, love it

(you may want to push spells back a couple levels [cantrips at 1/2, 1st level at 3/4 etc.] for a solid T3, but it's also nice as-is)

[radmelon]

Actually, I once did play a warlock that used shatter on every obstacle, removing locks and traps with ease. The DM ragequit.

[Wavelab]

Alright so now it is a little downgraded. I'd suggest that maybe at level 10 you can pump the SLA's to 2 or 3/day. Just so that he can have a little extra firepower.

I'd like to see the shadowcaster from Tome of Magic built like the previous build, with the 10 - spell level/day mechanic. It would probably fix the shadowcaster quite well. If you wouldn't mind Hazuki

[Hazuki]

Alright so now it is a little downgraded. I'd suggest that maybe at level 10 you can pump the SLA's to 2 or 3/day. Just so that he can have a little extra firepower.

I don't think that'd work with the downgrade in place, sorry. The class wasn't meant for firepower as such in the first place, but you can easily get some extra damage with meta-SLA feats.

I'd like to see the shadowcaster from Tome of Magic built like the previous build, with the 10 - spell level/day mechanic. It would probably fix the shadowcaster quite well. If you wouldn't mind Hazuki

Do you mean me "fixing" the Shadowcaster, or you borrowing the former-system?

If you mean the latter, go right ahead!

If you mean the former... I don't know much about Shadowcasters, honestly. I don't believe I could pull it off very well, sorry.

[Wavelab]

Do you mean me "fixing" the Shadowcaster, or you borrowing the former-system?

If you mean the latter, go right ahead!

If you mean the former... I don't know much about Shadowcasters, honestly. I don't believe I could pull it off very well, sorry.

I do in fact mean the former. And I emplore you to do it. Pweasy weasy?

[Straybow]

Okay, I missed the change to SLAs, but it still gets a pretty ridiculous number of spells. Let's look at the full example:

You get 20 SLAs to prepare. You have a +12 charisma modifier, because you add charisma to literally everything, and if you don't have at least that much you're doing something wrong. So you have a 32/9 = 4 9th level spells. 32/8 = 4*2=8 8th level spells. 32/7= 5 *3 = 15 7th level spells. 32/6 = 6 * 4 = 24 6th level spells. And that leaves you 1 extra SLA slot to put into a 5th levle spell, usable 5 times a day.

So in the end you have:
9th-4
8th-4(8)
7th-5(15)
6th-6(24)
5th-1(5)

Hmmmm, when I first saw this post I thought something was off and didn't have time to figure it out. Coming back to it now maybe I missed an edit in the mean time, but I don't know where you are getting the *2 for 8th, *3 for 7th, etc. My suggestion as worded was that the maximum number of spells for a given spell level was also the maximum number of times spells of that level that could be cast, however many or few were prepared.

Second, I forgot that in d20 ability boosts and wishes were given out like candy on Halloween. My bad, bro.

I would, in that case, not use (level+cha)/(spell level). I would use instead a simple (class level)/(spell level) rounded down as is standard for d20, with the further limitation that the initial level allowing a particular spell level allows only one of that level. Then add the bonus spells for cha just like any other casting class. I know you're trying to get away from the standard spellcasting trope, but without doing that it will be overpowered.

Specifically allowing only one for the first level available is redundant as things stand. I would make separate columns for when spells of a particular level are gained if the spell list has only 6 or 4 levels. Maybe for 6 use SL*3-2 and for 4 use SL*4-3. God only knows why you'd choose a 4 level list, but I'd let you get to 4th level spells a little faster than getting to the top level for 6 and 9 level lists.

[DracoDei]

Drive-by editting suggestion:

a Traveller may choose a one spell from their spell list, up to an amount of their Class Level + 3.

This seems self-contradictory or unclear.

[Hazuki]

Drive-by editting suggestion:

This seems self-contradictory or unclear.

Thanks. Fixed.

And sorry, Wavelab, but I just don't know the class well enough, and I can't think of any way to put my own spin on the class.

[Wavelab]

Thanks. Fixed.

And sorry, Wavelab, but I just don't know the class well enough, and I can't think of any way to put my own spin on the class.

Don't worry. You are forgiven this time.

[Straybow]

Oh, BTW, "Traveller" is the trade name of Marc Miller's sci fi rpg. At least in the US "Traveler" is considered the correct spelling.

(Marc says he was never good at spelling, such as "vaccuum suits")

[Hazuki]

I was never good at spelling, either. But I can't be bothered to change it now.

The extra "L" stands for "Luscious".

[Wavelab]

Oh, BTW, "Traveller" is the trade name of Marc Miller's sci fi rpg. At least in the US "Traveler" is considered the correct spelling.

(Marc says he was never good at spelling, such as "vaccuum suits")

Easiest solution. Say we're using the british spelling

[NeoSeraphi]

Does Heartfelt Stance apply to attacks you make with weaponlike SLAs?

[Hazuki]

Does Heartfelt Stance apply to attacks you make with weaponlike SLAs?

It applies to all ranged and melee weapon attacks. If it has an attack roll, you can apply it to the damage roll.

[Magikeeper]

When the class description says "Class Level + Charisma Modifier/Spell Level" it clearly intends " (Class Level + Charisma Modifier)/Spell Level ", but I'm not sure it means that by RAW right now. I suggest adding the ().

Also, I think the per-level restriction should be mentioned before the total restriction. It flows better that way.

[Hazuki]

When the class description says "Class Level + Charisma Modifier/Spell Level" it clearly intends " (Class Level + Charisma Modifier)/Spell Level ", but I'm not sure it means that by RAW right now. I suggest adding the ().

Also, I think the per-level restriction should be mentioned before the total restriction. It flows better that way.

Thank you for the comments, and I've edited the OP fittingly.

[Magikeeper]

I’ve been thinking about this class, and I think the spellcasting mechanic is an issue.

If you pick the sorc/wiz list you are basically a wizard with an infinite spellbook. On one hand you can only cast each spell 1/day, on the other you ignore material/exp components since they are spell-like abilities. There are a lot of “silver bullet” type arcane spells, I.E. spells that completely own specific situations, so having the entire list is a LOT stronger than having the entire cleric list. There are plenty of wizard spells you wouldn’t want to cast more than once per day, and most other spells have some amount of overlap. Most wizards I have played rarely prepare more than two copies of any given spell anyway.

The rest of the class acts like it is a dread necro or a beguiler – a limited caster that follows a theme, picking up extra abilities that fit the theme in place of spell versatility. But this class is at least debatably more versatile than the wizard, and is definitely using a tier 1 casting mechanic. Not to mention being able to re-prepare spells multiple times per day. So right now this class is less like a dread necro and more like a wizard with an awesome prestige class that is abusing D&D economics to have a spellbook with everything in it.

Versatility is the main source of spellcaster power, and this class is definitely more versatile than the tier 1 classes out of combat and isn't much less versatile than them in combat.



I think you should implement a spells known system. The easiest way to do this would be to replace the “total number of spells prepared” calculation with a “spells known” calculation, have each of them be castable 1/day, and remove the spells per level per day calculation. That would mean you know class level +3 spells. Actually, I would change it to just knowing one spell per class level since you get all cantrips at will at level 1.

That isn’t many spells per day, but if this class hopes to be balanced it needs to have a casting mechanic significantly more limited than regular casters. Also, this makes the sorc/wiz list a less obvious choice as you can easily find 2 spells per spell level worth casting 1/day from the other lists.

The paths would still be prepared as before, and the level 10 ability is still very strong even if it is only changing the feat and skill trick choices.

....Also, maybe use a delayed progression like the sorcerer. This class has some strong abilities going for it.
----------------------------

On another note, versatility is completely out of place at the level you get it. Maybe move it to level 5 and move soothing voice to level 7 (Also, I wouldn't require ranks in a skill to use your class ability - if they have no ranks in it the ability just won't be as good)? You would need a new level 19 ability, maybe something that removed the cap from knowledge devotion (granting an additional +1 for every 5 points over 36)?

Also, instead of having branching paths be 3/day how about 1/five class levels per day? Same effect at the level you get it, but better for epic.

[radmelon]

I am of the opinion that this class's mechanics for spellcasting are fine, but need to be slowed down. Make it so you don't start out with spells, and you don't get access to really high level spells. Think the bard. While it does have spellcasting, it only gets up to level 6, and not very much. I think that that would fix most of thi's class's problems.

[Roguenewb]

I love this class, but I think 9th level spells in any class that's doing anything else at all is a little too much (I'm looking at you druid!). Either it stretches you too thin, and you ignore one of your mechanics (druid+animal companion), or you get way too strong because of interactions (druid+wild shape).

I think currently high tier three? maybe low two?

[Hazuki]

*snip of spellcasting stuff*

I think it's fine as it is, the case for it has already been made by people previously in the thread and has been through those revisions.

On another note, versatility is completely out of place at the level you get it. Maybe move it to level 5 and move soothing voice to level 7 (Also, I wouldn't require ranks in a skill to use your class ability - if they have no ranks in it the ability just won't be as good)? You would need a new level 19 ability, maybe something that removed the cap from knowledge devotion (granting an additional +1 for every 5 points over 36)?

Argh, I know, I know, but I was having trouble thinking of a good 19th level ability to fix the dead level I suddenly noticed...

But level 5 is a bit too early, if you ask me. I'll consider putting it at some level past 10.

The Soothing Voice ability just has the ranks modified from where I took it from - The Half-Elf Bard. Really, if you're not going for diplomacy right from the beginning, you're not going to want to use Soothing Voice anyway.

Also, instead of having branching paths be 3/day how about 1/five class levels per day? Same effect at the level you get it, but better for epic.

I think the fact that it's 3/day is even better for Epic Levels. It's a good limit to stop spamming; and spamming of clones is the last thing anyone wants in Epic.

Thank you for the critique!

I am of the opinion that this class's mechanics for spellcasting are fine, but need to be slowed down. Make it so you don't start out with spells, and you don't get access to really high level spells. Think the bard. While it does have spellcasting, it only gets up to level 6, and not very much. I think that that would fix most of thi's class's problems.

The problem with that is that, most of the classes with slower progression, don't really get that at all.

Bards get Irresistible Dance at level 6, as opposed to at Level 8 like Sorcerers and Wizards, and get many of their spells at earlier "spell levels" than the Wizards do, even if it's around the same class level. The only difference is the Save DCs.

It needs to start out with spells because otherwise, it has nothing to do at Level 1, which is a huge deficiency in my eyes.

I love this class, but I think 9th level spells in any class that's doing anything else at all is a little too much (I'm looking at you druid!). Either it stretches you too thin, and you ignore one of your mechanics (druid+animal companion), or you get way too strong because of interactions (druid+wild shape).

I loathe dead levels. Even if I have crappy class features, I'd take 'em over dead levels, even on a Full Casting class.

Even if I were to restrict the spells to a lower level, it'd play havoc with everything else. There are spell lists of 4, 5, 6, and 9. I'd have to either go through all the spell lists and choose which ones are allowed, which means anybody who doesn't have hte books with those lists in is screwed, or create my own list for it. Which would be a lot of busy work which would hurt the class's versatility, which is the whole point of it.

[Mithril Leaf]

I just wanted to let you know that both I and my DM think this class is phenomenal. In my current campaign I'm playing a Half-giant psion, but if he doesn't work out, I'm going to be making a Neraphim Traveller, such good synergy there. Very nice class.

[Hazuki]

I just wanted to let you know that both I and my DM think this class is phenomenal. In my current campaign I'm playing a Half-giant psion, but if he doesn't work out, I'm going to be making a Neraphim Traveller, such good synergy there. Very nice class.

Thank you! I'm very glad you like it.