Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 61 to 86 of 86
  1. - Top - End - #61
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    Mar 2012

    Default Re: What alignment would you give these sort of druids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    Rilmani have similar goals to these guys, and are True Neutral. Keepers are similarly destructive, and are also Neutral. I'd peg these guys as consistent with the game's concept of Crazy Neutral.
    Neither generally resort to all out slaughter though and neither seek to eliminate the other alignments. The Rilmani act to keep all alignments in balance and generally use manipulation and politics to achieve their end. Ironically, the Rilmani would likely be the most ardent opponents of these Druids.

    The Keepers are largely sociopathic and I would argue not neutral since they eliminate anyone who knows one of their secrets. All depends on how ruthless you play them though.

    If the Druids used non-violent manners achieve their ends, similar to what the Athar do in Sigil, they could be True Neutral. The second they start killing to achieve their ends, they jump off of their slippery slope into Neatral Evil.

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Urpriest's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Stony Brook
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What alignment would you give these sort of druids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjuri View Post
    The Keepers are largely sociopathic and I would argue not neutral since they eliminate anyone who knows one of their secrets. All depends on how ruthless you play them though.
    What you argue isn't terribly relevant, they are Always Neutral. The alignment guidelines are ambiguous: short of in-depth research like hamishpence's the only thing we have to go on to define the alignments are examples.

    Anyway, what about the Formians? World domination is classically pretty Lawful Evil. In general, Neutral can indicate, rather than an unwillingness to harm people unnecessarily, instead that the creature involved has a particularly alien mindset. Animals, for example. I'd argue that if these Druids are stated as True Neutral then that could mean that they're simply so crazy that evil isn't really a good characterization. As I've said, there is precedent.
    Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor

    Meet My Monstrous Guide to Monsters. Everything you absolutely need to know about Monsters and never thought you needed to ask.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    One of the unwritten rules of Giantitp is that Urpriest is always right.
    Trophy!
    Spoiler
    Show


    original Urpriest (by Andraste)

  3. - Top - End - #63
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    Mar 2012

    Default Re: What alignment would you give these sort of druids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    In general, Neutral can indicate, rather than an unwillingness to harm people unnecessarily, instead that the creature involved has a particularly alien mindset. Animals, for example. I'd argue that if these Druids are stated as True Neutral then that could mean that they're simply so crazy that evil isn't really a good characterization. As I've said, there is precedent.
    Fair enough. I'd buy that for animals and keepers. Not so sure about mortals though, since assumably their minds work the same way ours do and their aim is to eliminate entire alignments. I find it difficult to buy that genocide is anything but evil for a human/elf/dwarf/whatever. Attempting to change people's minds is one thing. Killing entire races because of their alignment is another. Which ironically enough, one of the points that The Giant is trying to make with OotS.

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SowZ's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Denver
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What alignment would you give these sort of druids?

    Everyone seems to be assuming that within D&D, people accept that good and evil are absolutes or that they are synonymous with right and wrong. There is no reason some people can't just say, (about alignments,) 'no, I don't buy it' and keep going. Mechanics don't actually exist in D&D. They are a way to represent abstract or difficult to pin down concepts in a way that allows us to simulate the world with dice. If alignment is universally acknowledged as part of a characters make up, you may as well have people in character asking each other, "Whoever has the most ranks in diplomacy and highest charisma modifier should talk to this guy!"

    "But there is a spell that SAYS you are evil!" is not good enough. Who made the spell? A god? A person? Someone at some point declared it was evil and that isn't enough to make it so. People are going to think in universe, (and rationally so,) this is very arbitrary. If there was a single creator entity that bound the entire universe together and wasn't something that had a certain power level but was a fabric of the universe or something and had a specific consciousness maybe I'd accept some sort of universal morality, but until then no, I won't.

    You can disagree with me. You can say morality is concrete within the D&D world and that is fine. But it would be silly to suggest my viewpoint/arguments would never be used by people living inside a D&D world.
    Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
    Avatar by Kymme

  5. - Top - End - #65
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Knight13's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What alignment would you give these sort of druids?

    In a world with Detect Alignment spells, you would have to kill yourself if that was the case. Either this druidic sect was forced to self-terminate after their actions turned them Evil, or their actions did not turn them Evil. I am simply going with the latter scenario because the former one precludes any form of relevant discussion.
    All Detect Alignment spells are cleric magic and are therefore supplied by the gods. To the wise and logical leaders that you are suggesting of an organization explicity devoted to opposing the gods, such spells must be considered unreliable at the very least and possibly even subversive and therefore cannot be used for internal policing.
    Last edited by Knight13; 2012-04-05 at 03:14 PM.
    "Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." - Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

    There are very few personal problems that cannot be solved with a suitable application of high explosives.

    "Time to throw the dice." - Mat Cauthon, Wheel of Time

    "Nothing good can ever come from staying with normal people."

  6. - Top - End - #66
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: What alignment would you give these sort of druids?

    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ View Post
    There is no reason some people can't just say, (about alignments,) 'no, I don't buy it' and keep going.
    ...
    "But there is a spell that SAYS you are evil!" is not good enough. Who made the spell? A god? A person? Someone at some point declared it was evil and that isn't enough to make it so. People are going to think in universe, (and rationally so,) this is very arbitrary.
    Champions of Ruin does say that different D&D cultures will have different definitions of "evil" - some much more "liberal" than others.

    And there's quite a few examples of characters who insist that they and their actions are not evil. In Tome of Magic, there's a blackguard, once a paladin, who still does not understand why he's lost his paladin powers, and thinks it's a test of faith by his deity- Michael Ambrose, Witch Slayer.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine

  7. - Top - End - #67
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What alignment would you give these sort of druids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    As opposed to what? I can't think of what alternative to biological evolution you could possibly be referring to, unless you are saying most psychologists don't believe in evolution at all, which is both factually incorrect and leads down a road we probably shouldn't get into on this forum.
    I never said psychologists didn't believe in evolution, I'm merely saying that evolutionary psychology is only one school of thought. Other schools of thought are the tabula rasa, the Jungian theory of social subconscious, the socialisation theory, the imprinting theory, and others I am currently forgetting. And mind you, these are the "respectable" theories. I assure you that there is a frankly astonishing number of psychologists that subscribe to far more... shall we say, New-Age-y theories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens_cry View Post
    If Good is actually good ,then they are seeking to destroy beings who actively work to make the universe a better place, to help others without selfishness, to be light the way so others may follow.
    To destroy that would be a crime of, dare I say it, epic proportions.
    I fail to see how that cannot be immediately and automatically counterbalanced by destroying beings who actively work to make the universe a worse place, to harm others selfishly, tempt others into corruption and perform all kinds of hideous and depraved acts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight13 View Post
    All Detect Alignment spells are cleric magic and are therefore supplied by the gods. To the wise and logical leaders that you are suggesting of an organization explicity devoted to opposing the gods, such spells must be considered unreliable at the very least and possibly even subversive and therefore cannot be used for internal policing.
    Clerics need not be devoted to a god to have spells. Divine spells do not exclusively originate from the gods in settings other than Faerun. Furthermore, outside core, Detect Alignment spells can be found in classes that are not associated with gods in the slightest and some of which are not even divine at all.

  8. - Top - End - #68
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    Mar 2012

    Default Re: What alignment would you give these sort of druids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    I fail to see how that cannot be immediately and automatically counterbalanced by destroying beings who actively work to make the universe a worse place, to harm others selfishly, tempt others into corruption and perform all kinds of hideous and depraved acts.
    Because killing something because you cast detect evil on them and it came out positive is not a good act. At best, it's solidly neutral. Ask Miko, Belkar almost made her fall by killing him if V hadn't intervened. Rich made a similar point in On the Origins of PCs when the "heroes" Roy was with wanted to kill orcs because orcs were listed as evil when all the orcs wanted was to go to a heavy metal concert. Could they counter balance it and stay true neutral by countering killing celestials with helping people? By helping aid heroes who were fighting said being to protect the innocent? Perhaps. But killing evil beings just because they are evil is not a good act.

  9. - Top - End - #69
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: What alignment would you give these sort of druids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjuri View Post
    But killing evil beings just because they are evil is not a good act.
    Indeed, it might qualify as murder in a lot of settings. Eberron in particular emphasises that evil does not mean "deserves to be attacked".
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine

  10. - Top - End - #70
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What alignment would you give these sort of druids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjuri View Post
    Because killing something because you cast detect evil on them and it came out positive is not a good act. At best, it's solidly neutral. Ask Miko, Belkar almost made her fall by killing him if V hadn't intervened. Rich made a similar point in On the Origins of PCs when the "heroes" Roy was with wanted to kill orcs because orcs were listed as evil when all the orcs wanted was to go to a heavy metal concert. Could they counter balance it and stay true neutral by countering killing celestials with helping people? By helping aid heroes who were fighting said being to protect the innocent? Perhaps. But killing evil beings just because they are evil is not a good act.
    They don't intend to kill living beings. They intend to kill embodiments of evil, which is widely held to be an automatically good act (save a few sources who disagree).

  11. - Top - End - #71
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SowZ's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Denver
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What alignment would you give these sort of druids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    They don't intend to kill living beings. They intend to kill embodiments of evil, which is widely held to be an automatically good act (save a few sources who disagree).
    Then what about the demons who kill other demons? By killing enough demons, a demon becomes neutral. Eventually, the neutral demon will encounter another neutral demon and whoever wins that battle will become evil again! It just doesn't work.
    Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
    Avatar by Kymme

  12. - Top - End - #72
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: What alignment would you give these sort of druids?

    Don't know about "widely held"- there's one source that says it's an automatically good act (BoVD) but even that says that slaying creatures of "consummate, irredeemable evil" purely for personal benefit is not a good act (but not evil, either).

    Problem is- several sources suggest fiends aren't in fact irredeemable. In Savage Species, the Ritual of Alignment can change a fiend's alignment subtype without killing the fiend- though it does have a chance of dying.

    There's the Lawful Neutral fiend Fall From Grace (Planescape Torment). There's the famous succubus paladin from the WotC site. There's the cambion demons from Expedition to the Demonweb pits (despite being fiends, they have some human blood, and 10% of Cambions are neutral or good).
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine

  13. - Top - End - #73
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Talakeal's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    The New Mexico Wastelands
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What alignment would you give these sort of druids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    I never said psychologists didn't believe in evolution, I'm merely saying that evolutionary psychology is only one school of thought. Other schools of thought are the tabula rasa, the Jungian theory of social subconscious, the socialisation theory, the imprinting theory, and others I am currently forgetting. And mind you, these are the "respectable" theories. I assure you that there is a frankly astonishing number of psychologists that subscribe to far more... shall we say, New-Age-y theories.
    Ok, that explains it. I didn't think you were saying psychologists didn't believe in evolution, which is why I asked. I am no expert on new age psychology, but I was under the impression that most of those other theories still used evolution as a base point, for example Jung believing in some sort of inherited racial memory, but I get what you are saying.

  14. - Top - End - #74
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: What alignment would you give these sort of druids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    They don't intend to kill living beings. They intend to kill embodiments of evil
    actually, going by this:

    As a rough rule, any race which is listed in THE MONSTER MANUAL has having an inherent alignment is seen by the druids as literally alien or, at best, a native who has been perverted by the efforts of the gods who wish to rule them and use them as their tools on the Prime Material Plane.
    some non-outsiders will qualify as well- chromatic dragons, for example, may qualify as "natives who have been perverted by the efforts of the gods" - Tiamat, in this case.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2012-04-05 at 06:01 PM.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine

  15. - Top - End - #75
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    Mar 2012

    Default Re: What alignment would you give these sort of druids?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    There's the Lawful Neutral fiend Fall From Grace (Planescape Torment). There's the famous succubus paladin from the WotC site. There's the cambion demons from Expedition to the Demonweb pits (despite being fiends, they have some human blood, and 10% of Cambions are neutral or good).
    And sticking with Planescape, there's A'kin, who may or may not be a risen fiend, but regardless is a perfectly nice pleasant person. There are NG proxies of NE gods. There are rogue Modrons who were once perfect beings of perfect law, but are now something far more ambiguous. There is even a NG Ultroloth in canon, who secretly leads an entire gatetown. Is it easy for a fiend to rise? No. Is it possible? You bet.
    Last edited by Benjuri; 2012-04-05 at 06:28 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #76
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What alignment would you give these sort of druids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Ok, that explains it. I didn't think you were saying psychologists didn't believe in evolution, which is why I asked. I am no expert on new age psychology, but I was under the impression that most of those other theories still used evolution as a base point, for example Jung believing in some sort of inherited racial memory, but I get what you are saying.
    Spoiler
    Show
    No, not really. There's a big difference, conceptually, between "we acquired this or that psychological mechanism due to evolution" and "we have a series of psychological mechanisms pre-engraved in our minds" (the main difference between those theories is that the evolutionary one claims those mechanisms are capable of changing with time, whereas the latter theory claims those mechanisms are unchanging). Furthermore, the tabula rasa theory sustains that we learn our psychological mechanisms from our surroundings and/or develop them spontaneously to cope with situations, which would mean that evolution plays no role in regards to the mechanisms we end up developing (unless you want to speculate that society as a whole encourages certain mechanisms in individuals, but that in and of itself does not necessarily involve evolution. In fact, there would be a split between those that say that said mechanisms arose evolutionary and those that say those mechanisms arise spontaneously according to sociocultural specifications and change not out of an evolutionary impulse but according to the prevalent situations that society encounters).


    But that's frankly quite off topic.

  17. - Top - End - #77
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    shadow_archmagi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Earth... sort of.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What alignment would you give these sort of druids?

    It'd definitely depend on their methods. If they see Orcs as being "corrupted" by the Evil Gods and intend to just wipe out the Orcs entirely, that's one thing. If they intend to open a big portal to the Paraelemental Plane of Violence and mass exodus the Evil people in...

    I definitely wouldn't paint them as Good, but "Get out get out get off my PLANET" could definitely be a Neutral alignment.
    Last edited by shadow_archmagi; 2012-04-07 at 04:16 PM.
    Avatar by K penguin. Sash by Damned1rishman.
    MOVIE NIGHTS AND LETS PLAYS LIVESTREAMED

  18. - Top - End - #78
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Toy Killer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What alignment would you give these sort of druids?

    I dunno, I tend to look at the Good/Evil axis as being the method of action, and the Chaos/Law as the means to the action, in terms of alignment for organizations.

    This is just a general guide, not a hard fast rule.

    If a organization is powered by malice, is out to gather power for power's sake or just plain encumbering on everyone not involved, I would rule them as Evil. If they are out to provide for others, help and heal, or are just simply a boon for others not involved, I would rule them as generally good. These druids don't seem to be driven by spite or encumbering anyone they can, so I would rule them as Neutral.

    If the organization is strictly established, with a running hierarchy, a code or written law of some sort and generally well organized, I would rule them as lawful. If they are more of a off-the-cuff, do as they wish without anyone to answer too directly, as long as it moves towards the goal; I rule them Chaotic.

    again, they have a structure, but aren't especially well organized, I may rule them lawful, but probably leaning to true Neutral on this one.

  19. - Top - End - #79
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2009

    Default Re: What alignment would you give these sort of druids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    Out of general curiosity I'd like to ask the good people of Giant in the Playground forums, just as I asked at Minmax, what sort of alignment they would assign to the druids depicted in this article. Not based on the writer's claims but upon your judgement of course.
    Lawful Evil. The druids have a very rigid worldveiw and goals, and ending any distiction between good and evil is a strongly evil act.

  20. - Top - End - #80
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: What alignment would you give these sort of druids?

    "ending distinction between good and evil" isn't listed anywhere in the splatbooks- and doesn't entirely fit their attitude anyway.

    "Being opposed to the influences of Good and Evil forces" seems closer.

    With some opposition to Law and Chaos, as well.

    These are the guys who rally to the defensive when the slaadi are invading, the formians are invading, the fiends are invading .... and the celestials are invading.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine

  21. - Top - End - #81
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Talakeal's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    The New Mexico Wastelands
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What alignment would you give these sort of druids?

    In second edition wasn't part of the druids code that they HAD to oppose both good and evil, and they had some weird sort of "high neutral" alignment that forced them to actively oppose whichever alignment, Good, Evil, Law, or Chaos, which grew to eclipse the others?

    I would say these guys are neutral, just a more archaic form of neutral than most modern gamers use, although I believe the option to play "high neutral" is still in more recent PHBs, just not the default assumption for the druid class.

  22. - Top - End - #82
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: What alignment would you give these sort of druids?

    These druids are like that but a bit more extreme- they oppose all four "aligned forces" always- not just when one grows to eclipse the others.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine

  23. - Top - End - #83
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Knaight's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2008

    Default Re: What alignment would you give these sort of druids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    I never said psychologists didn't believe in evolution, I'm merely saying that evolutionary psychology is only one school of thought. Other schools of thought are the tabula rasa, the Jungian theory of social subconscious, the socialisation theory, the imprinting theory, and others I am currently forgetting. And mind you, these are the "respectable" theories. I assure you that there is a frankly astonishing number of psychologists that subscribe to far more... shall we say, New-Age-y theories.
    Evolutionary psychology, the questionable field, is not synonymous with "the way the brain works is due to how it evolved". The latter point is basically a given, whereas the former routinely makes large scale claims well beyond that, and is frequently criticized for those large claims that regard specific beliefs, as said claims have a tendency to trivialize the affects of culture. That our brains evolved, and evolved differently than, say, insect brains, and are as such a product of biological evolution is the dominant theory in the biology underlying psychology.
    Fudge Assistant in the Playground.

  24. - Top - End - #84
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What alignment would you give these sort of druids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    Evolutionary psychology, the questionable field, is not synonymous with "the way the brain works is due to how it evolved". The latter point is basically a given, whereas the former routinely makes large scale claims well beyond that, and is frequently criticized for those large claims that regard specific beliefs, as said claims have a tendency to trivialize the affects of culture. That our brains evolved, and evolved differently than, say, insect brains, and are as such a product of biological evolution is the dominant theory in the biology underlying psychology.
    You confuse psychology and neurology. Everything you're saying refers to neurology, which is a branch of biology, where evolution holds undisputed sway. While all but a scant few psychologists believe that biology influences psychology somehow, not every school of thought prescribes the entirety of our psychological processes as purely biological. The distinction is subtle, but it's frankly quite important.

  25. - Top - End - #85
    Banned
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Mar 2012

    Default Re: What alignment would you give these sort of druids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    Logic, obviously. If you're fighting Evil and you're Evil, you must fight yourself. I was merely citing one of example of such fighting. You can, of course, merely kill yourself after you've made sure you've destroyed all of the evil in the universe. But that's boring.
    Yes but when you kill yourself it limits your potential tally of dead evil to 1, YOU.
    Its very easy using basic D&D alignments to have an evil character justify sticking around and fighting evil knowing that he is damned. He knows he will one day fall in the struggle and until then all he can do is send as many of the bastards to the hells as possible.


    That being said i find these druids to be lawful neutral. They have a sense of the order of things and how they should be and enforce that order irrespective of perceived good or evil because its the order itself that matters.

  26. - Top - End - #86
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: What alignment would you give these sort of druids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    You confuse psychology and neurology. Everything you're saying refers to neurology, which is a branch of biology, where evolution holds undisputed sway. While all but a scant few psychologists believe that biology influences psychology somehow, not every school of thought prescribes the entirety of our psychological processes as purely biological. The distinction is subtle, but it's frankly quite important.
    Are we still on this?
    When I cited evolution I was just referring to Darwinism. A species that reproduces like humans do and has mental processes that reliably result in self termination isn't likely to survive very well; especially compared to one with processes that actively prioritize survival. Additionally the list I gave was inclusive, not exclusive. The mentality you're suggesting doesn't make sense from an evolutionary standpoint, an instinctual standpoint, a societal standpoint or any other standpoint (save maybe a child's logic). The phrase "and almost any other standpoint" indicates that there are other possible explanations for a persons behavior, and I can't think of any that would support your claims, but I have neither the time nor the inclination to list all of them.
    Last edited by Epsilon Rose; 2012-04-11 at 02:10 AM.
    The Focus Sniper: Boom. Head-shot.
    Spoiler: Older, and somewhat abandoned, classes
    Show
    The Chaote: a free form mage.
    My [wip] Magic fix: everyone has one, but how many encourage multi-classing?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •