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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post
    This is the broken link.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC5FI...feature=relmfu

    Assuming you want to go with Medieval longsword, you still have to further specify the Italian system (Fiore / Vadi) or the German-language system (Liechtenauer) and if the latter, 15th vs. 16th Century.

    Mcv mentioned the Lindholm ringeck book which though old, is good because it has the original translation in addition to their (now petty dated) interpretation, side by side.

    The best overall HEMA book to get if you want to understand what historical fencing is, is this overview by Sydney Anglo from 2000, luckily still available and in print

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Martial-Ar...5189533&sr=1-1

    There were a lot of translations of German manuals done but unfortunately many of the best are now out of print. They should be coming back, but they had a problem with some publishers which haven't been resolved.

    This is a good translation of one of the 'folio' style German manuals

    http://www.amazon.com/Codex-Wallerst...6&sr=1-1-spell

    There is also a superb online resource for the German manuals, with translations of nearly all of them:

    http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Main_Page

    Here is some Italian stuff.

    Fiore (this is a partial translation I think of the Getty version of Fiore's Flos Duelletorum, but it's relatively cheap and very nice to look at. Fiore has superb illustrations.)
    http://www.amazon.com/The-Knightly-A...ref=pd_sim_b_7

    This is a really good, practical guide to Medieval dagger techniques which derives largely from Fiore

    http://www.amazon.com/Medieval-And-R...ref=pd_sim_b_6

    This is Vadi but it's an old translation, don't know much about it other than that.

    http://www.amazon.com/Arte-Gladiator...ef=pd_sim_b_10

    Hope that helps. beyond that, get connected to a group in your region
    Thanks, that definetly helps. I'll see about looking for some groups where I lie... I've been meaning to do this for a while. As for futher narrowing it down - what I'm looking for is definetly German longsword from 15th century. I've already seen and heard a bit about Liechtenauer.
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  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    I have a 'simple' question relating to learning swordplay.

    If a person tries to just do what feels natural, how successful would they be in sword fighting? Are there any maneuvers that are very effective but are not natural?
    Mainly depends on what you mean by a "sword fight." If you mean a battlefield with two sides crashing together the odds of survival are low for the first rank, but even lower at their skill level. After the initial bloodbath you wind up with a loose free-for-all melee. If they keep moving they might stay alive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post
    ...The main problem is going to be telegraphing attacks and an inability to effectively block. My experience with newbies is that they usually can't parry very well with almost any weapon, are surprised and discomfited when their opponent does parry, and are very easy to counter against after a parry.
    I would echo that.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post
    With a really subtle weapon like a rapier, a beginner has almost no chance at all against even a half-trained opponent. The first overreaction you make means you'll be skewered a second or two later.
    I see that with thrusting weapons in general. Rapiers, smallswords, estocs, all of them are sloppy. It also shows up with two handed weapons in general. At the intersection of the two - most polearms - is where it just starts getting hopeless. As often as not, it takes all of one thrust on the newbies part, where they overextend, have their weapon knocked aside, then take a lunge to the chest.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    For those looking for manuals and manuscripts to study from, note that, despite the name, the Wiktenauer also has a fair amount of non-German non-longsword stuff: Capo Ferro, di Grassi, Marozzo, and George Silver, for instance.
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Mount and Blade has a weapon called "shortened military scythe"
    (Pic)
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    Does such a thing exist in reality? I can't find non-M&B references to the name (so I assume it would have a different name or no "real" name at all), but it seems plausible.
    Last edited by deuxhero; 2012-04-23 at 10:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by deuxhero View Post
    Mount and Blade has a weapon called "shortened military scythe"
    (Pic)
    Spoiler
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    Does such a thing exist in reality? I can't find non-M&B references to the name (so I assume it would have a different name or no "real" name at all), but it seems plausible.
    IIRC that is a "hand glaive" a weapon which can be found in period artwork but there is no proof that such a weapon ever actually existed.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post
    With a really subtle weapon like a rapier, a beginner has almost no chance at all against even a half-trained opponent.
    Note that George Silver argued exactly the opposite, even going as far as to claim that the untrained man had odds against a opponent schooled in the false Italian fashion. While this relates to his overall polemic against Italian fencing instructors, it shouldn't be completely discounted. Lots rapier duels in this era ended with each party thrusting home. Furthermore, the idea of bad training being worse than no training makes obvious sense.

    On the other hand, Silver did expect masters to defend themselves perfectly against any and all comers. He proposed a quite robust qualification exam for fencing instructors. I think experts did achieve this level of skill in some cases, but I suspect the inexperienced combatant still poses a significant threat to most martial artists. I've done rather well in sparring against newbies myself and I'm barely mediocre with a sword, but I think sparring tends to heighten the differences in skill.

    There are reasons why people with less training tended to be equipped with certain simpler to use weapons (or weapons for which a simple training regimen could be developed)
    Nearly every idiot and their brother had a rapier in much of Europe during the Renaissance, so there's little reason to believe that rapiers require some special level of skill to use.
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by Incanur View Post
    Nearly every idiot and their brother had a rapier in much of Europe during the Renaissance, so there's little reason to believe that rapiers require some special level of skill to use.
    I think that might speak more towards the social status associated with owning such a weapon rather than any real level of legitimate skill.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by deuxhero View Post
    Mount and Blade has a weapon called "shortened military scythe"
    (Pic)
    Spoiler
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    Does such a thing exist in reality? I can't find non-M&B references to the name (so I assume it would have a different name or no "real" name at all), but it seems plausible.
    Well, quite simply, this weapon refers to all kind of 'choppers' 'short glaives' or whatever you call it, that appear in large amount of pictorial sources from 13th to 16th century, but no one had really found anything that could be actual genuine example. Or at least they're not known and researched.

    So they're quite a bit of mystery.

    Few most famous depictions.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    I have a 'simple' question relating to learning swordplay.

    If a person tries to just do what feels natural, how successful would they be in sword fighting? Are there any maneuvers that are very effective but are not natural?
    They could be pretty successful. Some people just have a natural talent for it. I've seen someone without any sparring experience (though he did have some training) beat much more experienced fighters in a tournament. There are definitely very effective but counter-intuitive maneuvers in sword fighting, but as long as you're not fighting an expert, you can probably get by without them.

    If you have that talent, that is. Without it, you're never going to master the complexities of combat on your own in the way that people with training do.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by Incanur View Post
    Note that George Silver argued exactly the opposite, even going as far as to claim that the untrained man had odds against a opponent schooled in the false Italian fashion. (snip)
    Nearly every idiot and their brother had a rapier in much of Europe during the Renaissance, so there's little reason to believe that rapiers require some special level of skill to use.
    While I think Silver is generally respected for his insights into fencing and his training approach, and while he makes an interesting and credible case for how to beat a rapier with a sword, his attacks against rapier fencing in general have a little less credibility. I think it's more to do with politics (and xenophobia) than fencing. Much like Swetnams rants against the female "species".

    That said, certainly putting a rapier in your hand doesn't make you anything special as a fencer, if you are not trained or are badly trained, it's less than useless as many people learned the hard way. That was essentially my point: it is unwise to try to use a weapon like that unless you are fairly well trained, and unskilled rapier fencers did indeed frequently skewer one another in duels, coroners records bear this out.

    Historical records do also however bear out the skill of Spanish and Italian rapier Masters, whatever you think of the weapon there is no doubt it was / is effective in the hands of a well-trained fencer and the most skilled Masters did indeed know what they were doing.

    EDIT: as testament to the efficacy of Silvers system, I saw a female fencer, a New Zealand woman who lives in the UK who we call "Kit the Kiwi", defeat one of the strongest fighters in my group (who himself went on to get 3rd place in dussack in Sweden at Swordfish later that year) in a dussack match in Houston in 2010. She is very into Silver and uses his guards and techniques with the dussack, quite effectively.


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    Last edited by Galloglaich; 2012-04-24 at 08:53 AM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by mcv View Post
    They could be pretty successful. Some people just have a natural talent for it. I've seen someone without any sparring experience (though he did have some training) beat much more experienced fighters in a tournament.
    I've seen naturally athletic people with a few months of training from very good instructors do well in tournaments, but in ten years I've yet to see anyone with zero training do well in international longsword tournaments or even informal sparring.

    I think you can do ok right out the gate (i.e. no training) with Dusssack. I've seen people get 'up to speed' (basic competency) in saber in a few weeks, same with staff or spear. You can get up to speed in about 3-6 months with longsword if you have a very good instructor and training several times a week. More like a year or more if you are training on your own or with less skilled teachers. For some people it takes 2 or 3 years. With rapier I would generally double that in most cases, but I have seen some people who take to it much more quickly, again depending on the instructor and the individual student. Some people seem naturally more suited to one weapon than another, longsword and rapier are distinct personality types.

    I learned longsword up to a basic level of competency in about a year, but it took me almost 4 years to get halfway decent at rapier and I'm still not that good.

    There are also different plateaus you reach. I think a guy with 3 months of training in a longsword has a major edge against someone with no training, just from knowing the guards, false-edge cutting, Mastercuts and so on. Enough to ensure like a 3-1 victory margin. But it probably takes at least a year to get to the point where you have a similar advantage over almost any naturally athletic guy with 3 months of training, and something like 3 years before you have a major advantage over a strong guy with 1 years experience.... and that is if you have talent and drive sufficient to learn those advanced, counter-intuitive techniques.

    The interesting thing is that training in the historical techniques can and does trump youth and strength, but it takes a lot of training. At Fechtschule America this March I saw a handful of fencers in their 40's and 50's who could still dominate aggressive young fighters in their mid 20's. But there aren't very many who can still hold their own at that age.

    G

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Thank you Talakeal and Spiryt!

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post
    I think it's more to do with politics (and xenophobia) than fencing.
    I think it's best to interprets Silver's rants as over-generalizations based on experience with bad rapier instructors. Lots of it comes from xenophobia and personal grudges, no doubt, but the idea some folks teaching dubious martial arts makes sense to me. You see that all the time in our contemporary moment. Rapiers fencers who only had experience defending against the thrust and never practiced rough sparring might well have had trouble against natural fighters.

    That was essentially my point: it is unwise to try to use a weapon like that unless you are fairly well trained, and unskilled rapier fencers did indeed frequently skewer one another in duels, coroners records bear this out.
    I just question the idea that semi-trained fencers - with any weapon - had little to fear from the inexperienced. I think self-defense is a harder problem than that. Also, double kills don't necessarily imply a complete lack of skill; they can result from aggression. Duelists sometimes acted with little regard for their own safety.
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    I think it's best to interprets Silver's rants as over-generalizations based on experience with bad rapier instructors. Lots of it comes from xenophobia and personal grudges, no doubt, but the idea some folks teaching dubious martial arts makes sense to me. You see that all the time in our contemporary moment. Rapiers fencers who only had experience defending against the thrust and never practiced rough sparring might well have had trouble against natural fighters.
    I agree with all that.. no doubt there were some charlatans around and the more 'rough and ready' approach that some of the English fighters had could clearly trump more sophisticated but delicate specialists. I think there is a famous anecdote about a stranded English seaman fighting several rapierists in the Spanish court with a quarterstaff?

    I just question the idea that semi-trained fencers - with any weapon - had little to fear from the inexperienced. I think self-defense is a harder problem than that.
    I agree in theory it doesn't sound like it should make sense, but I'm just going by what I have observed. I should be clear, this is only reflective of my own experiences, I don't pretend that they are universal.

    That said, by what I've seen, with certain weapons there just seems to be a few tricks and / or basic mistakes which can undo you, as soon as you learn to fix that you become dangerous. I think it's maybe because the weapon is more counter-intuitive to use or because there is too much to think about. A newby spear guy can make a fast thrust but usually doesn't recover effectively, and you can rush them after they thrust (they usually have no idea what to do when you get inside their range). A newby sword-and-shield guy often doesn't even use his shield at all, or if he does, leaves his lower legs exposed, and will react to a high feint, making it easy to get them. All new fighters tend to telegraph but this seems particularly exaggerated with the longsword; why, I'm not sure. A telegraphed oberhau (cut from above) can be easily dealt with by a single-time zwerch, or a double-time krumph-shiel, or even a simple hengen - counter... or by just a step back and a nachreisen. Often in fact it's against newbies that you can really execute these techniques most cleanly in sparring, I usually take the opportunity to try disarms and take-downs and so on.

    From my own experience, the same guy I can just take out over and over and over again in their first couple of weeks of trying to spar, twenty times in a row, two or three months later I'm having much more trouble with and getting some double-kills if they are fast. But that is just anecdotal.

    By the way, speaking of advanced techniques, here is a nice video from MEMAG in Maryland, demonstrating a wide range of technique progressions from various Liechtenauer manuscripts, done deliberate, slow and loose to be easy to see. I like :)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLSn0...ature=youtu.be

    One of the reasons I like it in particular is that you can see one or the other fighters telegraphing their intent in an obvious way and the other person reacting 'indes' and adjusting their counter or their attack. This looks a little goofy but it's illustrating the decision-points.

    G
    Last edited by Galloglaich; 2012-04-24 at 02:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by Incanur View Post
    I just question the idea that semi-trained fencers - with any weapon - had little to fear from the inexperienced. I think self-defense is a harder problem than that. Also, double kills don't necessarily imply a complete lack of skill; they can result from aggression. Duelists sometimes acted with little regard for their own safety.
    I'd also note that the assumption that there is "little to fear from the inexperienced" tends to assume a duel situation. Using myself as an example - I generally don't have issues dealing with one extremely inexperienced fencer. However, outside of duels there is nothing stopping that one fencer from bringing a few friends. Two against one is a problem. Three against one is a much bigger problem. Past that point, any victory of the one becomes some miraculous thing to be celebrated for years.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Yeah I agree with that. This tends to get underplayed in RPG's; numbers are dangerous. Two or three newbies and I'm probably done-in.

    That said, there are systems like Jogo Do Pau and the Iberian Montante manuals which specifically deal with coping with multiple opponents in different types of terrain, in a hallway for example or on a ship. And from what I've seen, they look very effective. The same type of stuff also exists in some Chinese and Japanese fencing systems.

    Also, when dealing with superior numbers, that is where I think a shield helps a whole lot, and also a larger weapon like a staff or a polearm.

    G
    Last edited by Galloglaich; 2012-04-24 at 02:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post
    Yeah I agree with that. This tends to get underplayed in RPG's; numbers are dangerous. Two or three newbies and I'm probably done-in.

    That said, there are systems like Jogo Do Pau and the Iberian Montante manuals which specifically deal with coping with multiple opponents in different types of terrain, in a hallway for example or on a ship. And from what I've seen, they look very effective.

    G
    True. There are different techniques for dealing with multiple people, and they can be learned. I've done some pitched battle stuff, and came from a duel background, and there are some gigantic weaknesses that a duel background leaves that tend to get exploited - the biggest of these is probably sheer focus. It's often pretty easy to rush a duelist from the back. Another relates to movement, where parrying inward is often a bad idea as it makes it easier to get surrounded, and you want all your enemies on one side of you.

    With that said, eventually you'll get overwhelmed. The number of people it takes will vary - those who have no practice fighting multiple people are probably hosed against two, where it might often take three or even four against those significantly better. The best I've ever seen was someone taking down six people, and everyone involved knew full well that it was a fluke.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    I have a question: how would one carry deer-horn knives?

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    To clarify what I mean by 'carry': to leave hands free for other actions, but have the knives accessible if a combat situation arises.

    Thanks!

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by Tam_OConnor View Post
    I have a question: how would one carry deer-horn knives?

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    To clarify what I mean by 'carry': to leave hands free for other actions, but have the knives accessible if a combat situation arises.

    Thanks!
    in a bag, over the shoulder, with a more conventional weapon in a sheath if you need a weapon in a hurry.

    IMO, weapons like that are "display" weapons, meant to let the user show mastery of a certian move or skill (eg disarming, trapping, etc), and were intended for "real" combat. this is not the same as them never being used for real combat, it's just i think that wasn;t the point of ther weapon.
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post
    I've seen naturally athletic people with a few months of training from very good instructors do well in tournaments, but in ten years I've yet to see anyone with zero training do well in international longsword tournaments or even informal sparring.
    Well, this wasn't an international tournament. It was an internal for AMEK only, and specifically aimed at people with no tournament experience. I believe there were one or two people with some international experience, but still, for one of the least experienced people to win, was not something I expected. He also doesn't look terribly athletic. Somewhat overweight, in fact. I forgot how much instruction he got. I think a year, but I could be way off there. No sparring experience at all, though. He was pretty clear about that.

    I think you can do ok right out the gate (i.e. no training) with Dusssack.
    I just can't seem to get the hang of it without some instruction. A few guards are different and I have no idea what to do with them. We use dussacks for some sparring games, but don't get any real instruction in them. And there's a dussack tournament (again internal) coming up.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Speaking of unnatural moves and half-swording, is it true some knights would hold their swords by the blade and swing them like a hammer?

    Are there any ways of making a sword better suited to this niche purpose? A stiffer blade perhaps?
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    Speaking of unnatural moves and half-swording, is it true some knights would hold their swords by the blade and swing them like a hammer?

    Are there any ways of making a sword better suited to this niche purpose? A stiffer blade perhaps?
    Yes, and yes.

    Spiked quilions and pommels as well as dull-handle like grips mid blade are mentioned in various manuscripts. I don't know of any actual historical weapons with these features other than the ricasso found on later period spadones/great swords. They were already quite stiff for half-swording and thrusting into mail. Blunt trainers are significantly more flexible than the real thing.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    Speaking of unnatural moves and half-swording, is it true some knights would hold their swords by the blade and swing them like a hammer?

    Are there any ways of making a sword better suited to this niche purpose? A stiffer blade perhaps?
    yes. its a real move. It's even made it onto the silver screen (Kingdom of Heaven, that training scene just before the baron gets shot)

    as i understand it, it was a move to transitioned into when half swording (i.e. you already had a hand on the blade), to exploit an opening, and it was less "swing like a hammer" and more "punch with the pommel". think of it as "pommel strike, plus".
    Last edited by Storm Bringer; 2012-04-25 at 10:56 AM.
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    Speaking of unnatural moves and half-swording, is it true some knights would hold their swords by the blade and swing them like a hammer?

    Are there any ways of making a sword better suited to this niche purpose? A stiffer blade perhaps?
    Depictions like this begin to show in 15th century, although AFAIR there's not that much of them showing such usage in battle.

    I think that such use of the sword would be anyway somehow rare, when opportunity arises - when somebody would want to strike something with guard or pommel he still would probably usually use less 'committed' ways, like so:


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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Much like half-swording, using murder-stroke like attacks are primarily for use against someone in armour. Situations where the regular stuff like one handed pommel strikes depicted above are ineffective. Fiore does explicitly talk about using a sword like it was a poleaxe, and I have opened fights like that much to the befuddlement of my opponents. It makes a highly effective opener from Posta di Donna against someone half-swording who is (almost) obligated to parry in true-cross it leaving you a few excellent second intention actions from the bind, much the same as they would if done with a poleaxe. :)

    My favourite being pulling them down (pull the bind down into Denti di Cinghiale Mezza, pulling the crossing down with a Volta Stabile) and returning with with essential a pommel uppercut into their dropping torso, right into their visor... (return from with sotani back into a high guard)
    Last edited by Maclav; 2012-04-25 at 11:29 AM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    The number of people it takes will vary - those who have no practice fighting multiple people are probably hosed against two, where it might often take three or even four against those significantly better. The best I've ever seen was someone taking down six people, and everyone involved knew full well that it was a fluke.
    A period martial artist wrote the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans Döbringer
    There is no hurt or disgrace to run away from four or six. And when you turn and start to run away from him, then throw your sword across and run as fast as you can. Then as one who thinks that he has caught up with you and has closed with you, then leap to the side of the road and if he is running quickly after you, then he will be moving too fast to control himself and you can strike him down as you wish.
    That's a tactic for facing as many as six foes, but it involves flight. Swetnam considered defense against two earnest opponents in the open simply impossible, though he noted a skilled player could at least hold off a gang in some narrow spot. The key is not getting surrounded. See this thread for additional information on the situation of one against many.
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Does anyone have any firm dates for when leather armour was actually invented?

    The best I've found is evidence of soft leather (for clothing and slings) from 3000 BC, but nothing at all about boiled/hardened leather armour.

    Same question for shields (by material type and size) and for bronze armours.
    Last edited by Ashtagon; 2012-04-26 at 02:32 AM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by Incanur View Post
    That's a tactic for facing as many as six foes, but it involves flight. Swetnam considered defense against two earnest opponents in the open simply impossible, though he noted a skilled player could at least hold off a gang in some narrow spot. The key is not getting surrounded. See this thread for additional information on the situation of one against many.
    A tactic like that is basically necessary. Non-flight tactics get you surrounded, which is all sorts of hopeless. Even with that though, it's still a six on one.
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