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  1. - Top - End - #301
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    another question for you, firearms related:

    why did the pump action never seem to spread beyond shotguns? I have never heard of a pump action rifle, but my knowledge of firearms doesn't include whatever problem would make them unworkable.


    unless it the same reason bolt actions are preffered over lever actions (you can only stack rounfs end to end in a lever, and this means if your using centerfire cartidges that the point of one bullet is touching the primer of the next, e.g. is not safe. is that the reason?)
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by Storm Bringer View Post
    another question for you, firearms related:

    why did the pump action never seem to spread beyond shotguns? I have never heard of a pump action rifle, but my knowledge of firearms doesn't include whatever problem would make them unworkable.
    Remington makes a rifle that fires 270 Winchester rounds or 30.06 rounds that is a pump action:
    http://www.remington.com/product-fam...odel-7600.aspx

    I think part of the popularity of bolt action rifles is its a completely closed breach. That said a pump action isn't all that different than a lever action rifle, and there are still plenty of those.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by Storm Bringer View Post
    another question for you, firearms related:

    why did the pump action never seem to spread beyond shotguns? I have never heard of a pump action rifle, but my knowledge of firearms doesn't include whatever problem would make them unworkable.


    unless it the same reason bolt actions are preffered over lever actions (you can only stack rounfs end to end in a lever, and this means if your using centerfire cartidges that the point of one bullet is touching the primer of the next, e.g. is not safe. is that the reason?)
    I'm not a major in anatomy or gun mechanisms, but it seems to me that the pump action isn't very ergonomic. Pumping a gun involves pulling down on the bottom tube (whatever) of the gun, which will wobble your aim more than an action that is at the back of the gun like a bolt or lever. With a shotgun, the shooter is generally not expected to shoot rapidly and accuracy is a LITTLE easier so that might be why it stuck with shotguns.
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    But as we've agreed, sometimes the real power was the friends we made along the way, including the DM. I wish I could go on more articulate rants about how I'm grateful for DMs putting in the effort on a hard job even when it isn't perfect.

  4. - Top - End - #304
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    There are a few pump action rifles. Not military ones, but a few commercial firearms are pump action.

    I have to say, it's my least favorite firearm action, because, as No Brains says, it makes you move the gun too much to chamber a new round. With a bolt action, you can cycle the weapon without really throwing off your aim. Even lever action if you have a nice supported position, you can stay on target. Plus, if you are firing prone or kneeling supporting your forward elbow on you knee or some other support, you have to shift position and move your weight to pump the action.

    Nothing beats semi auto for staying on target.
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Hooray! I talked out of my mouth that time!

    Now I have a request for a hand weapon that could be considered' freakish'. I am looking for an historical weapon that looked or functioned in a bizarre or unorthodox manner, yet managed to flourish within its own niche. If it could be held in one hand, all the better.

    I am currently imagining something like a one-handed dagger-axe (Chinese polearm) or halberd, but if anyone can think of anything stranger, I would be pleased.
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    But as we've agreed, sometimes the real power was the friends we made along the way, including the DM. I wish I could go on more articulate rants about how I'm grateful for DMs putting in the effort on a hard job even when it isn't perfect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    Does anyone have any firm dates for when leather armour was actually invented?

    The best I've found is evidence of soft leather (for clothing and slings) from 3000 BC, but nothing at all about boiled/hardened leather armour.

    Same question for shields (by material type and size) and for bronze armours.
    I believe that boiled/hardened leather armour as portrayed in DnD books and such-like never actually existed. The closest is the under-coats used under metal armour, and perhaps Linothrax.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll View Post
    I believe that boiled/hardened leather armour as portrayed in DnD books and such-like never actually existed. The closest is the under-coats used under metal armour, and perhaps Linothrax.
    It certainly did exist. the traditional name for this material was cuir bouilli.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    It probably wasn't ever really used as armor in Medieval Europe, though used pretty extensively by nomadic people of Asia.

    There were leather shields dated to around 1500 - 1000 B.C., in any case.

    http://www.bronze-age-swords.com/Clonbrin_shield.htm
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    It probably wasn't ever really used as armor in Medieval Europe, though used pretty extensively by nomadic people of Asia.
    That'll be why the traditional name for this armour material is not in French, yes?

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    I am currently imagining something like a one-handed dagger-axe (Chinese polearm) or halberd, but if anyone can think of anything stranger, I would be pleased.
    I've got what I believe to be an ornamental version of a pistol dagger that I picked up in Italy.

    There's the emei piercers, hook sword and meteor hammer popular in Chinese martial arts. I believe somebody linked to deerhorn blades earlier in the thread.

    The Indians made use of the chakram which is again fairly unusual.

    On the western side of things, I believe there were multi-bladed swords (that is, swords with additional blades mounted in parallel), but I'm unsure as to the historical accuracy of such things.

    I know they look common to us now, but boomerangs are really odd compared to most other thrown weapon.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    I've got what I believe to be an ornamental version of a pistol dagger that I picked up in Italy.

    There's the emei piercers, hook sword and meteor hammer popular in Chinese martial arts. I believe somebody linked to deerhorn blades earlier in the thread.

    The Indians made use of the chakram which is again fairly unusual.

    On the western side of things, I believe there were multi-bladed swords (that is, swords with additional blades mounted in parallel), but I'm unsure as to the historical accuracy of such things.

    I know they look common to us now, but boomerangs are really odd compared to most other thrown weapon.
    Could I get a pic of that pistol dagger?

    If possible I would like my obscure weapon to be more 'barbarian' than 'elegant'. While Eastern Martial arts weapons are sometimes intentionally odd, they have a bit too much of a 'civilized' touch to them.

    No multi-bladed swords. Kadaj ruined them forever.

    You point about boomerangs got me interested. Although their utility against humans is limited, it reminded me of some Southern Hemisphere throwing blades. I liked for this purpose the Zande Kpinga(s), and I believe there are some other African throwing knives as well. While throwing a weapon is a clever way to disarm yourself, Deadliest Warrior (forgive me for mentioning them) seemed to show the massive shuriken as a serviceable weapon.
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    But as we've agreed, sometimes the real power was the friends we made along the way, including the DM. I wish I could go on more articulate rants about how I'm grateful for DMs putting in the effort on a hard job even when it isn't perfect.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Given that, you might like the 'hurlbat', sort of the European equivalent of those (highly effective) African throwing knives. Used from possibly as far back as the Migration era through the Middle Ages and into the Renaissance.





    I also like the big two-handed flail used by the Czechs, also quite effective.



    We've also discussed the various axe-gun combinations in the past



    There are lot's of other exotic weapons in India.

    G

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_G View Post
    I have to say, it's my least favorite firearm action, because, as No Brains says, it makes you move the gun too much to chamber a new round. With a bolt action, you can cycle the weapon without really throwing off your aim.
    Most the pump action rifles I've found seem to be market for their rapid cycling while moving. Thus the target market is for hunting from an ATV, horseback or even a boat.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleriphon View Post
    Most the pump action rifles I've found seem to be market for their rapid cycling while moving. Thus the target market is for hunting from an ATV, horseback or even a boat.
    I guess that makes sense. I've only ever shot military weapons or target shooting. Pump action isn't very conducive to either of those.
    Out of wine comes truth, out of truth the vision clears, and with vision soon appears a grand design. From the grand design we can understand the world. And when you understand the world, you need a lot more wine.


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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_G View Post
    I guess that makes sense. I've only ever shot military weapons or target shooting. Pump action isn't very conducive to either of those.
    Yeah, all of the marketing emphasizes that pump action rifles are best for rapidly cycling another round into to take another shot at a moving target. I'd imagine it would be handy if you're trying to take an elk on the run that you didn't kill with the first round.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleriphon View Post
    Yeah, all of the marketing emphasizes that pump action rifles are best for rapidly cycling another round into to take another shot at a moving target. I'd imagine it would be handy if you're trying to take an elk on the run that you didn't kill with the first round.
    I guess that's great marketing for the company that wants to sell more ammo to the guy who already bought an ATV and a pump action rifle instead of a good bolt action and learning to stalk.
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_G View Post
    Nothing beats semi auto for staying on target.
    Why are there no (popular) semi automatic shotguns? Is the pump action mechanism just cheaper to manufacture, is the recoil not strong enough, or are there issues with non-brass cartridges?
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Why are there no (popular) semi automatic shotguns? Is the pump action mechanism just cheaper to manufacture, is the recoil not strong enough, or are there issues with non-brass cartridges?
    Not sure how you're using 'popular' but the Mossberg 930 SPX has some good reviews.

    They're not cheap though - a good semi-auto shotgun is often at least twice the cost of an equivalent pump action. Historically, there have been reliability issues - but I think those have been solved. As long as you're willing to pay for it of course. ;)
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    That pretty much answers it.
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Why are there no (popular) semi automatic shotguns? Is the pump action mechanism just cheaper to manufacture, is the recoil not strong enough, or are there issues with non-brass cartridges?
    There are several, the Saiga being one of them. The primary issue, at least in the US, can be that most semi-auto shotguns actually have magazines that are too large to be legally used. Even pump action shotguns sometimes require plugs if they can hold too many rounds.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    I personally get a kick out of the Protecta, AA-12, and the Punt Gun.

    If for whatever reason you need to make sure an entire biome dies, these are your weapons.
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    But as we've agreed, sometimes the real power was the friends we made along the way, including the DM. I wish I could go on more articulate rants about how I'm grateful for DMs putting in the effort on a hard job even when it isn't perfect.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    Hooray! I talked out of my mouth that time!

    Now I have a request for a hand weapon that could be considered' freakish'. I am looking for an historical weapon that looked or functioned in a bizarre or unorthodox manner, yet managed to flourish within its own niche. If it could be held in one hand, all the better.

    I am currently imagining something like a one-handed dagger-axe (Chinese polearm) or halberd, but if anyone can think of anything stranger, I would be pleased.
    Hmmm. While there are a lot of freakish one handed weapons out there, I'm having trouble of thinking of any that really "flourished" even within their own niche.

    The best I can think of right now is a "trench club". Used during WW1, they are freakish because they were usually made on an ad hoc basis, with nails driven through them at various angles and often wrapped in some barbed wire. They certainly flourished within a niche -- and their freakishness is probably enhanced by their widespread use in a war that included planes, high-explosive artillery shells, poison gas, and machine guns. I don't think that was exactly what you were looking for, however.

    There were various pistol-something/something-pistol weapons. Some of the earliest known wheellocks are crossbow pistols -- a crossbow with a small wheellock gun built into the stock. I've seen replicas of a "cutlass pistol". The "duck's foot" pistol, with three barrels firing at different angles is a bizarre weapon which must have been awkward to use (not so much to hold and fire, but to have three targets in the right place).

    I feel like I should be able to come up with something that was a bit more widespread than any of those bizarre combo pistols. I never got the feeling that such weapons really flourished, although a good number of them seem to have survived.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    That'll be why the traditional name for this armour material is not in French, yes?
    Maybe they named it after being attacked by invaders who wore it- wasn't there a guy called Martel who thwarted a big invasion?
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    how about African throwing knives?

    they had blades coming off at crazy angles all over them, the logic being that ni matter which way the weapon was facing when it hit, at least one sharp edge or point was facing the right way.

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    Well, cuir boulli has been tested and it doesn't make good armor. Because it is saturated with wax it does not resist arrows well at all. The wax actually lubricates the missile, reducing the friction of penetration. The effect on blades wasn't specifically tested that I recall, but it might have a similar problem. It does really well against impact.

    Steaming the leather makes it contract and become more dense. With practice the craftsman learns the ratio of contraction and can make items that will be the correct size and shape after shrinking.

    The Greeks discovered, probly by accident, that layers of leather and canvas glued together (the exact method is unclear, but I'd guess two layers of each) were proof of missiles of that era. The Romans dismissed it as "just leather" and never used it, and its secret was lost. We understand today that the interaction of dissimilar materials can magnify their strengths and negate their weaknesses.

    A similar effect is seen in the "lime shield" of rawhide glued over linden wood. It doesn't work with cured leather, it has to be rawhide. It doesn't work with most oak, ash and other straight-splitting wood that are very tough but split too easily.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by Straybow View Post
    Well, cuir boulli has been tested and it doesn't make good armor. Because it is saturated with wax it does not resist arrows well at all. The wax actually lubricates the missile, reducing the friction of penetration. The effect on blades wasn't specifically tested that I recall, but it might have a similar problem. It does really well against impact.
    http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc...r/hl.html#cb17

    Well, except that wax wasn't used in historical examples of cuir boulli armour.

    It's more likely that actual armours were finished by lacquering them, not by waxing or oiling them. Waxes and oils would both give a decorative (if you like that sort of thing) finish and make it waterproof, but certainly reduce the armour potential.

    There is another country that is known to have lacquered their armour. This is probably not a coincidence.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc...r/hl.html#cb17

    Well, except that wax wasn't used in historical examples of cuir boulli armour.
    Can you point to any references about those historical examples of cuir boulli armor?

    The very problem is that we really don't have those, and people are left speculating about interpretation of few literal sources, like the very 'cuir boulli' phrase.

    Like in link you've provided.

    There's something like that:

    Spoiler
    Show


    Probably arm/elbow protection, but of it was actually practical and used... no way to know.

    Buff coats used later as 'light' standalone armor, or supplementation of breastplates etc. wasn't hardened leather in any way, just high quality, arduously and carefully stitched into mobile, yet protective coat.
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    Can you point to any references about those historical examples of cuir boulli armor?

    The very problem is that we really don't have those, and people are left speculating about interpretation of few literal sources, like the very 'cuir boulli' phrase.

    Like in link you've provided.
    It was the bit where he said:

    Please Note that there is NO Evidence that I know of that Waxed Leather was used for anything other than some Elizabethan era bottles, cups, knives scabbards, etc.

    Given that the Elizabethans and Victorians were very guilty of assigning all kinds of idiocy to mediaeval warfare, it would not surprise me to learn that the waxed cuir bouilli armour belief originated with them.
    Last edited by Ashtagon; 2012-04-29 at 12:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    Now I have a request for a hand weapon that could be considered' freakish'. I am looking for an historical weapon that looked or functioned in a bizarre or unorthodox manner, yet managed to flourish within its own niche. If it could be held in one hand, all the better.
    Weapons that flourish tend not to be considered freakish anymore because people get used to them. I mean, if they weren't known to be common weapons, flails and morningstars would definitely count as freakish, wouldn't they? And what about spears 3 times the size of a man? Or polearms with their weird heads? Military picks? Bolas?

    If you want a weird looking polearm, you might consider a bec-de-corbin. It can have a really tiny looking head. Basically it's a halberd with the axe replaced by a warhammer, making it extra good at piercing plate.

    Another interesting weapon I wasn't aware of until a few years ago, are Langes Messer. They're technically knives (because of their knife grip and single edge), but they're as big as swords, have an extra nail at a right angle with the crossguard, giving interesting parry and counter options, and they've got a really cool and subtle yet brutal looking fighting style. They were probably reasonably common, though.

    Of course Okinawa weapons are a good place to look too.
    Last edited by mcv; 2012-04-29 at 03:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

    Quote Originally Posted by mcv View Post
    Weapons that flourish tend not to be considered freakish anymore because people get used to them. I mean, if they weren't known to be common weapons, flails and morningstars would definitely count as freakish, wouldn't they? And what about spears 3 times the size of a man? Or polearms with their weird heads? Military picks? Bolas?

    If you want a weird looking polearm, you might consider a bec-de-corbin. It can have a really tiny looking head. Basically it's a halberd with the axe replaced by a warhammer, making it extra good at piercing plate.

    .
    Well, technically all kinds of bec de corbin/lucerne hammers are simply pollaxes with some kind of hammer or pronged protrudes instead of axes.

    Halbers are generally one bit of metal on top of staff, formed into blade with hook and top spike... While poleaxes and co. generally are stick with different bits mounted around it.

    Cannot really see it as really weird though.

    Morningstar is a form of mace, making it rather 'obvious' too.

    Personally I would probably end up designating kusari-gama as 'bizarre' weapon.

    Seems very awkward, but supposedly was perfectly practical for it's purposes.
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